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Most of the really famous ones have only had fragments of them published. Others aren't really true mega-dungeons so much as they are just really big dungeons (such as World's Largest's Dungeon). There is a significant difference. Of actual megadungeons there's only a handful that actually qualify.What is your definition of a mega-dungeon? I had been thinking that mega-dungeon was just a massive dungeon.
Yeah, I'm thinking a single dungeon that can encompass an entire 1-20+ campaign qualifies as 'mega', but that's just me. It may not be the only definition, but it is certainly one of them.
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Ok I think we've given enough time for ideas to get collected. Let’s get this location rolling so we can start getting into the meat of this dungeon.
We have 7 strong areas to choose from, thanks to James coming in and giving some slight look at plans ahead.
Here are the contenders:
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin
El-Fatar - Katapesh
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion
Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon - The Sodden LandsPick your two favorite ideas and post them to the thread. Each vote gets a point, and the top two will be discussed in length to help us figure out the whys and whats.
Voting will extend through this week to Friday, 8 PM EST to allow plenty of time for people to choose.
Is there a reason Kaer Maga was taken off the list?
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Here are the contenders:
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin
El-Fatar - Katapesh
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion
Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon - The Sodden Lands
My thoughts on how I envision each, followed by my votes:
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy - Undead heavy early on "ghosts and spirits of long-perished soldiers and miners who once occupied the lands" Then under that is whatever the Iobarians were feeding prisoners/bodies to when they threw them down a dark hole somewhere.
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin - my concern is that a pillar doesn't leed to much room to expand. are you going to have it get harder both going up and going down from the start? if so a party will cake walk the opposite direction when they turn around.
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin - it is a red dragon lair... maybe the adventurers find another entrance into said city and then work up to the dragons? That would be a pretty mean big boss battle if you get a pissed off mommy and daddy red after slaying the 2 wyrmlings....
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin - maybe if there is a written in way to force the players into the temple, to bypass the "I let a rust monster go on each chain" problem.
El-Fatar - Katapesh - So far doesn't seem to dangerous.. maybe one of the artifacts they find sets something off? I could see lots of traps in the first floor, but I'm not really getting a vibe for any big bad evil guys down in the lower levels, maybe I'm missing a reference somewhere?
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion - lots of possibilities for what caused the labyrinth to be sealed at least 2 times in its history. There's a built in fiend... maybe something followed the fiend across... maybe something able to kill the fiend took up residence. Who knows
Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon - The Sodden Lands -
Hyrantam - lots of abberations, mostly underwater, which could cause issues for some parties, epecially early on.
Kokutang - seems very 'seasonal' in it's danger, unless the 'cannibals' are really sacrificing things to some demon lord or something deep in the caverns.
Oagon-seems too explored already, plus see limits mentioned in Hyrantam. Unless the 'long tailed aquatic animals' grabbing divers are selling them to slavery for someone else, which would be an interesting start to the adventure, but not really lead to anywhere to sell loot.
My Votes go to "Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh" and "Raschka-Tor"
Is there a reason Kaer Maga was taken off the list?
Kaer Maga was removed from the list due to James saying there were potential Paizo plans for that location. The locations listed are locations James has said we can meddle with without having our dungeon caused unusable by Paizo Canon.
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Is there a reason Kaer Maga was taken off the list?Kaer Maga was removed from the list due to James saying there were potential Paizo plans for that location. The locations listed are locations James has said we can meddle with without having our dungeon caused unusable by Paizo Canon.
I thought the whole point of Kaer Maga was that they weren't going to do anything more with it. Or does that only apply to the city itself?
Whatever, in that case, I vote for Raschka-Tor and El-Fatar.
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion - lots of possibilities for what caused the labyrinth to be sealed at least 2 times in its history. There's a built in fiend... maybe something followed the fiend across... maybe something able to kill the fiend took up residence. Who knows
I will mention that while history is poorly detailed from the period, some notion of what precisely happened and who or what was involved during those two periods in history is there in the details (albeit actually across two books, the Osirion book and the Sphere chapter of Classic Treasures Revisited).
Suffice to say the labyrith as originally formed contains a bound mid-tier archfiend (Zelishkar of the Bitter Flame) in service to Szuriel the Archdaemon of War, and potentially a great many of its own servitors in some capacity. Add in a swallowed up city and whatever was once contained there in terms of citizens, and their likely undead/ghostly status at this point, and it's a dangerous place. The connections to the Pharaoh of Forgotten Plagues, and the later Lich Pharaoh are just gravy (being the Pharaohs who attempted to bind and use the fiends). :)
Creative Director
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I thought the whole point of Kaer Maga was that they weren't going to do anything more with it. Or does that only apply to the city itself?
That doesn't apply to anything; Kaer Maga has always been a location that we've had plans for, ever since the start. In fact, at this point, Kaer Maga is the closest thing to a megadungeon that we have in print.
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I thought the whole point of Kaer Maga was that they weren't going to do anything more with it. Or does that only apply to the city itself?That doesn't apply to anything; Kaer Maga has always been a location that we've had plans for, ever since the start. In fact, at this point, Kaer Maga is the closest thing to a megadungeon that we have in print.
Hmm, OK. Guess I got some bad info somewhere along the way.
I'd definitely say either el-Fatar or Icerime Peaks.
Most of the really famous ones have only had fragments of them published. Others aren't really true mega-dungeons so much as they are just really big dungeons (such as World's Largest's Dungeon). There is a significant difference. Of actual megadungeons there's only a handful that actually qualify.What is your definition of a mega-dungeon? I had been thinking that mega-dungeon was just a massive dungeon.
My definition of a megadungeon is pretty much based on the big two- Greyhawk and Blackmoor. These are dungeons that are meant to encompass an entire campaign. It's not just a matter of size, but of scope. That's why it's important to have a variety of different themes for different levels. If it's the same thing throughout it'd be pretty boring to go through a entire campaign in it (though in the "big two" there were plenty of adventures outside the megadungeons as well, but the focus was still on them.). Another thing that makes a megadungeon is that a megadungeon isn't meant to just be played through and "cleared". As I said before, it's not a static location, but instead a dynamic one that changes over time.
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Dungeon a Day is an excellent example of a "modern" Mega-Dungeon...
10 levels and growing plus external locations.
A Mega-dungeon is not just a big dungeon...
Its a dungeon that goes down level after level, each level being a dungeon in its own right, its own theme and requirements...
but not only that... all this levels are joined not only by stairs or an unusual background, the levels feed each other, sometimes creatures move from one to another, you can fin items useful in one level in another very different.
My recommendation is using Dungeon-a-Day, just found it house somewhere.
For me (for me) there is only one true mega dungeon in Golarion... and I am sure Paizo will be working it one of this days... the "Starstone Cathedral"
Just tossing this out there, page 18 of Orcs of Golarion throws some cold water on Sech Nevali / Brimstone Haruspex, as it is described as being "relatively small in size", and thus not so "mega".
I realize nominations are now closed, but think Saggorak (Dwarves of Golarion, page 14, "Kovlar") may deserve a second look, as it has a well-defined safe area (Kovlar) and tons of possibilities for political intrigue via the guild rule of Kovlar. Finally, dungeon ecology is fairly easy to account for, as most residents of Saggorak are undead, although I concede this might lead to too much of a "dungeon monoculture".
2 days left.
My vote is for Icerime Peaks and The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh
After much deliberation, my vote is also for Icerime Peaks and The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh.
Current vote tallies appear to be:
4 Icerime Peaks
4 The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh
2 Raschka-Tor
1 El-Fatar
1 The Cleaves
0 Cenotaph
0 Sech Nevali
0 Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon
Looks like we need someone to come in and break the tie.
TheChozyn I'll try to get a wiki article up with all of the information we know about whatever location is picked early next week (I'm away this weekend) unless someone beats me to it.....
I'll switch my vote from Icerime Peaks to The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh.
Sounds like we have a winner. Which books besides the CS have info on the Labyrinth?
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Sounds like we have a winner. Which books besides the CS have info on the Labyrinth?
Doing a search of some of the PDFs now....I don't remember which ones i have on this computer, I'll do a better one when i get home... but the Osirion Companion is the only one I can find with data, and of course the post above describing it
Sounds like we have a winner. Which books besides the CS have info on the Labyrinth?Doing a search of some of the PDFs now....I don't remember which ones i have on this computer, I'll do a better one when i get home... but the Osirion Companion is the only one I can find with data, and of course the post above describing it
There's some additional background detail in the Sphere of Annihilation chapter of Classic Treasures Revisited.
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What is the purpose of The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh?
You really have three options with this site:
1. The Labyrinth is designed to confound its occupant that the fiend never escape.
2. The Labyrinth is designed slowly convert those who enter into the service of the fiend without them realizing it.
3. The Labyrinth predates the Fiends who now occupy it and that it has older and darker secrets that they may have gone looking for.
What do they say about the Vorpal Sword? If it isnt Vorpal...It isnt dead.
Sorry I vanished. My internet decided to die this weekend.
I know I said the top two would be discussed, but unless there are any objections I think we can move forward with The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh.
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh has a sunken city, A labyrinth, and who knows if the fiend just decided to dig down out of the labyrinth, or what else could lie beneath.
First question is the Fiend the end? Or is there a greater evil lurking beneath the labyrinth?
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Sorry I vanished. My internet decided to die this weekend.
I know I said the top two would be discussed, but unless there are any objections I think we can move forward with The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh.
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh has a sunken city, A labyrinth, and who knows if the fiend just decided to dig down out of the labyrinth, or what else could lie beneath.
First question is the Fiend the end? Or is there a greater evil lurking beneath the labyrinth?
What is the purpose of The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh?
Options:
- The Labyrinth is designed to confound its occupant that the fiend never escape.
- The Labyrinth is designed slowly convert those who enter into the service of the fiend without them realizing it.
- The Labyrinth predates the Fiends who now occupy it and that it has older and darker secrets that they may have gone looking for.
A Fiend goes exploring for something it has discovered at this site. It becomes trapped in a Labyrinth with the capacity to confound it. Perhaps it triggered the release of something once in. I'm Thinking the ultimate MAZE spell or Psionic attack that grows and changes continuously to confound the fiend preventing escape.
- Did the Labyrinth formation cause the city to sink into it?
- Or is the idea of a sunken city an illusion of the Labyrinth?
- Has the Labyrinth simply increased in 'field strength' to encompass the city?
- Is there some sort of 'black hole' like event happening here that can never be escaped from once entered?
Your project isn't going to clash with anything going into this newly announced book, is it?
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Creative Director
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Your project isn't going to clash with anything going into this newly announced book, is it?
There IS an Osirion location in this book, but that location is the lost city of Tumen, so things should be fine.
Someone else will need to take the reins on this now.
Work has decided to run me through a special project and my free time will vanish through the end of the year.
Look forward to chirping in here and there when I have a moment
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For those working on building a mega dungeon, there are a number of potentially useful articles over at The Alexandrian starting late July and continuing on into the beginning of August about dungeon design, and "jaquaying" the design to make things more interesting - especially with respect to layout. They might be worth a look.
Given the IP issues we might want to keep this 'paizo community'...so when Paizo shares it with the world there can be no issues that we got our ideas from someone else who wants to be paid for something we will be workin for free on.
So what's the next step? Right now we're discussing the nature of the dungeon as a whole. Do we want to continue with a top-down approach or perhaps a bottom-down approach? I think we should give some thought to what we're going to be doing for the first few levels while at the same time continuing to consider the bigger picture.
So what are our first few levels going to be like? What entrance or entrances allow access to these levels. Looking at the wiki there seems to be a portal that was thrice sealed. Is this portal simply a door or a magical portal? Is it still sealed? Are there any other entrances?
An important consideration is how hard is it to get in and out? After all, the place is supposed to be keeping the demon stuck inside. Personally I think the upper levels should relatively easy to escape, but as you go in deeper it gets harder to escape.
I'm thinking that the dungeon has only recently been unsealed. Thus as the players begin exploring it it should be relatively unpopulated, but then as time goes on the dungeon begins to be settled by various monsters
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The outer limits of the Labyrinth
Connecting small communities are a network of Subterranean Aquaducts that once provided Water and Water Travel to the now sunken city. The only means of travel through these Aquaducts is by Canal Gondola. There are amongst this network of Subterranean Aquaducts an assortment of Market places servicing Remnant populations living on and below the surface.
Briefing: This provides us with a maze of functional and collapsed aquaduct tunnels that can be explored by adventurers looking for an entry point into the Labyrinth Proper. Encounter Threat levels increase as the Adventurers close in on the open entrypoint to the Labyrinth.
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OMG! A fantastic Dungeon Generator...
I'm gonna echo Wolfthulhu...
Wow.
Thanks for linking it yellowdingo!
The outer limits of the Labyrinth
Connecting small communities are a network of Subterranean Aquaducts that once provided Water and Water Travel to the now sunken city. The only means of travel through these Aquaducts is by Canal Gondola. There are amongst this network of Subterranean Aquaducts an assortment of Market places servicing Remnant populations living on and below the surface.
Briefing: This provides us with a maze of functional and collapsed aquaduct tunnels that can be explored by adventurers looking for an entry point into the Labyrinth Proper. Encounter Threat levels increase as the Adventurers close in on the open entrypoint to the Labyrinth.
That's a really good idea. I was thinking we'd probably need a part of the dungeon that wasn't actually part of the main dungeon for the low levels. There will be dungeon areas and monster lairs scattered through the aqueduct network of course. One thing that occurs to me is that it might be tedious to just randomly search through the aqueduct network without any idea where you're supposed to go once you've outgrown the challenges of the upper levels. We should provide clues to insure that the players should have a pretty good idea of where to go to find the main dungeon once they're ready for it's challenges. We could also provide sub-levels that are more difficult than the rest of the upper dungeon.
Someone should probably do a sketch of the aqueduct network and connected dungeons. I'll certainly try to give it a go myself. But certainly others with cartographic skills should try as well.
Yeah I saw that random dungeon generator a few days ago. It is indeed really awesome.
Well, yeah we should create a "home base" as well as mapping out the aqueduct as a whole. Then we should figure out what the closest adventure areas and start detailing them.