In our games, we do not track rations, light source (torches being used), we don't really sleep or pay rent. All the details are left out and we mainly just have encounters. We buy stuff for our characters between games mostly.
My question - what do your groups do? Do you think we are missing something from our game sessions by not tracking and buying rations or is this just boring? Should we collect firewood if we are traveling and actually sleep?
I know it is all party preference, but I was wondering if this were a fun part of the game we weren't experiencing or just kind of OK.
Thx
You said it! It's a matter of preference.
Depends on the players and the GM what kind of game they want to run. We don't always track such things at my table, but we sometimes do, it is fun or it enhances verisimilitude.
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I'm tracking a calender which helps for days. Couldn't find a Golarion calender so I just made a 12 month 28 day calender and since im running Rise of the Runelords to start I just picked an equivlent of October as the first day of Autmmn for when the scenario starts.
I'm pretty handy with maps and stuff so I designed a check sheet for ammunition.
It's real easy to motivate players to keep track of their stuff. I make the point I'm spending the time reading, memorizing and studying the campaign so the least they can do is manage 1 character sheet.
Also I impose a rule of, if it's not written down properly you can't use it, and if you never wrote it down by the time you try and use it, they you lost it.
I do also run a campaign with players who enjoy the fact a few wrong moves means death so by imposing vision, food, ammo and sleep rules they can get stuck between a rock and a hard place. Leaves the mroe prepared characters to rise to the top.
I haven't thought about rent really...I worked out backstories with my PCs that allowed them be in the starting town without owning property, they became heroes fast so they get put up in an inn for free for the time being.
Depends on the game... in the Ptolus game i played in we tracked rent (actually living expenses, which included rent)
We generally don't focus too much on sleep in the game, but if we're in the wilderness or in a dungeon we do take turns on watch in case of encounters.
As far as food/water, we generally hand wave that unless we're in a situation where it would likely be hard to find, such as in a desert or arctic enviroment.
nonmagical, nonmasterwork ammo we don't generally track (though for specialized things like the ammo for my Alkenstar character i did, since he pretty much had to make all his own firepower)
Firewood and torches we don't focus on too much, but then for the most part my group tends to pool resources for everburning torch, or darkvision.
I'm kinda anal myself as far as what i write down on my character sheet myself, such as rope, ink, parchment, vials, ect, but thats mainly for my own benefit, sometimes while we're brainstorming i'll look over the inventory and get a crazy idea for how to use some of the junk i'm carrying.
I've been in some games where they track EVERYTHING, and some where they track very little. My advice, is if you feel you might be missing out on the fun, try tracking some, and see how you like it. Often in a wilderness or dungeon campaign the "camp time" is a good chance to RP for a short bit. It also depends on how much time you have for a session, how often you can get together. If your gaming time is limited then handing shopping/roleplay out of session (perhaps through email/chatroom) might be the best thing for your group
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I'm tracking a calender which helps for days. Couldn't find a Golarion calender so I just made a 12 month 28 day calender and since im running Rise of the Runelords to start I just picked an equivlent of October as the first day of Autmmn for when the scenario starts.
I'm pretty handy with maps and stuff so I designed a check sheet for ammunition.
It's real easy to motivate players to keep track of their stuff. I make the point I'm spending the time reading, memorizing and studying the campaign so the least they can do is manage 1 character sheet.
Also I impose a rule of, if it's not written down properly you can't use it, and if you never wrote it down by the time you try and use it, they you lost it.
I do also run a campaign with players who enjoy the fact a few wrong moves means death so by imposing vision, food, ammo and sleep rules they can get stuck between a rock and a hard place. Leaves the mroe prepared characters to rise to the top.
I haven't thought about rent really...I worked out backstories with my PCs that allowed them be in the starting town without owning property, they became heroes fast so they get put up in an inn for free for the time being.
There are several Golarion calendars floating around on the forum. Use the search-fu.
The problem with detailed tracking of resources, food etc. is that it is an issue for low-level characters only. At higher levels magic mitigates 80% of mundane concerns.
I have my players track all of that stuff. As a player I do the same because thats how I was taught to play long ago. It not a necessary thing, it's definitely a matter of preference, but it becomes interesting to watch PCs conserve ammo....or just not have the right equipment to keep a troll from regenerating at lower levels.
IMO, fully tracking equipment helps with immersion in the game. Your character is a Bard with STR 11, you're not going to be wearing the heavier types of light armor or holding a slew of alchemicals most likely. The PC then ends up having to prioritize what equipment they need and want. For me, that makes the game a bit less abstract and more fun.
We get as detailed as the groups want to go.
One group has modifiers for each type of armor vs the weapons they carry vs the Armor the baddies are wearing. Terrain Modifiers, lighting conditions, weather and all kinds of things. The more they ask for, the more I give em. Now, that being said, it can SLOW things down alot in some instances but they enjoy the heck out of it. They check to see what fighting styles are being used, the spell components are from different schools and kingdoms and the clerics are reciting prayers from what gods. It's great fun, lots of work but great fun.
The other group simply wants to know where, when and what dice to roll and that group is great fun also!
The first group tracks their food if casters don't have the spells for it, water too. Almost didn't make it out of the desert that one time! They also track Feed for Mounts, torches for the humans, oil for the lanterns and especially their missile weapons. Annoys the Ranger to no end sometimes..."Umm, guys, we should try to by pass this group of baddies. I got 7 arrows left and the Efficient Quiver is dry." The Barbarian just chuckles and pats his Greatsword: "Nah, good to go here....draw that knife of yours and get your hands dirty."
Lol, in that game my Wizard Player has a friggin note book of components he's collected / bought so that he knows what spells he can cast. "Guys, hold up a second while I collect this Bat Guano!!" He says scooping up the sticky substance and placing it in a pocket in his cloak.
Cleric: "Umm, that's kinda nasty, you need to do that?"
Wiz: "Yeah, if you want a fireball, I do"
Barbarian: "You need a hand scooping that up? I got empty whiskey jug you can have?"
Like mentioned above, it's all about the Players and the DMs preference. Experiment with it till you find the level you like. It's all good!
Hope some of this helps
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
I keep track of the passage of days in our campaign. This has had an effect on the weather as we moved from autumn to winter (word of advice: don't try wind-walking into stiff gales on the mountains). We pay for rooms at inns or to use teleportation circles. We haggle with shopkeepers. Expensive material components are carefully tracked (I'm still on the lookout for a diamond mine). But we don't worry much about food, though we have rations and water and appropriate gear for the climate (never know when we'll hit one of the null magic zones).
The real question, I think, is how much detail do you want?
Pretty heavily detailed -- negotiating with shopkeepers, stopping at inns for the night or setting up camp and a system of watches, and so on. The players love it, and it's not something I need to stat up, so it's fine with me.
The one thing that I don't have my players (I'm the DM) track is food. It's just too nitpicky for me. As long as they say "we buy food at a stall as we go through the town" or "we stop for 20 minutes to eat our rations" no more tracking is needed. I think they'd do it happily, but it's something that I can't stand keeping track of in detail, for whatever reason.
I have players track ammo, but not food. I just assume they have enough. I do make them track most everything else.
I kind of track encumbrance. If the guy with a strength of 10 is trying to wear full plate, that wont go over well, but for the most part being "reasonable" is all I ask for.
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I utilize the "monthly living expenses" option to avoid keeping track of many mundane matters. For 10gp at the start of each month, we cover the cost of cheap inn rooms, food, drinks, and minor living expenses. If they want to live better, move up in society, the costs per month go up.
If the party heads to the wilderness, I do apply survival checks for setting up a good camp and foraging for food if no one stocked up on rations. If they're on the main roads, I don't and apply fluff detail (like finding an abandoned barn to stay the night, or a hollowed out tree that others have prepped for a campsite, etc.)
I do keep track of equipment like torches as there are times folks want to set something on fire. If used as a light source, I'm not huge on tracking exact duration. I may just announce the light tapers if I recall during a long trek.
I think tracking some of this can be fun and add flavor to the campaign, particularly tracking time and adding weather and terrain in to give encounters more flavor. For example, an encounter with troll in bright sunlight in an open field is a completely different encounter than one with a troll in a driving rainstorm deep in a thick forest with heavy underbrush. Don't overuse it, but throwing a weather or terrain curve the PCs way every now and then adds a lot of spice.
Similarly adding roleplaying into situations between encounters can add a lot of spice and set up game hooks for later. Rather than just shopping by telling the DM what you want to buy from equipment lists in the book, having to interact with real NPCs, bargain with them and developing relationships with them can add a lot. It is again a completely different experience to have the PCs avenge the death of some anonymous NPC as opposed to having them avenge the death of Olaf, the friendly shopkeeper who gave them such a good deal on that second-hand masterwork battleaxe. This is a matter of taste, however, and not all groups like to roleplay such things, or only like to do it occasionally.
As for routine bookkeeping exercises like encumbrance, I generally only ask players to keep track if it seems like someone is exceeding limits. I also occasionally ask people to tell me where they are carrying different items/weapons, so that we come to a common understanding and they don't argue with me if I tell them it takes them X amount of time to ready it.
As for eating and food and water, I usually ignore it unless there is some in-game reason it is important, like adventures when they will be travelling a long time away from water or food sources. Then it has to be carefully tracked.
I have my players track all of that stuff. As a player I do the same because thats how I was taught to play long ago. It not a necessary thing, it's definitely a matter of preference, but it becomes interesting to watch PCs conserve ammo....or just not have the right equipment to keep a troll from regenerating at lower levels.
IMO, fully tracking equipment helps with immersion in the game. Your character is a Bard with STR 11, you're not going to be wearing the heavier types of light armor or holding a slew of alchemicals most likely. The PC then ends up having to prioritize what equipment they need and want. For me, that makes the game a bit less abstract and more fun.
This. To me it is crucial to know what I do and DO NOT have with me. While yes it can at times mean we do NOT have something important, it is just those situations that spur interesting RP and story. If you never got lost, or never read a map wrong or never forget something important then you have always done everything right and that gets just as boring as never succeeding.
Now I am not stating this as a universal truth for everyone, far from it, but to ME it is far more interesting to detail the character and his gear. More often than not I DO have something to counter the 'obscure GM conflict/thingy' but even the times I don't, not having the item makes for an interesting story offshoot.
And with archers types especially, you need to track ammo. You don't realise how much you go through until you DO. Even at level 6 I can pump out 4 arrows a round. You go through ammo FAST even with only a few short combats a day if your out in the wilderness.
I think the monthly living expense option is a great tool. But it shouldnt over the amount of food or torches you have. they ar enot hard to keep track of and as far as an adventure goes rnning out is a big deal.
That really depends. If the challenge of the adventure is the allocation of scarce resources, than I keep track very keenly. If it is an adventure in the civilized world, where PCs are buying and selling items worth thousands of GP, I don't keep track of the living cost, since these are sums so marginal, it doesn't really matter. Torches ... I don't think they are really in use in my party, since all players considered it a wise idea to opt for everburning lanterns... one thing less to keep track of.
Greetz
Ganzir
That really depends. If the challenge of the adventure is the allocation of scarce resources, than I keep track very keenly. If it is an adventure in the civilized world, where PCs are buying and selling items worth thousands of GP, I don't keep track of the living cost, since these are sums so marginal, it doesn't really matter. Torches ... I don't think they are really in use in my party, since all players considered it a wise idea to opt for everburning lanterns... one thing less to keep track of.
Greetz
Ganzir
I had a party that made that mistake once. You would be surprised what low level enemies in the game assume you will have access to torches. It is generally a mistake to be without torches whether or not you use them for light.
As to how much you keep track of things. For me sometimes it comes down to GOR, gameplay over reality. Do i really want to figure out some kind of banking system so the party can transport it's wealth past 6th level? Do i want to bog down a game while the party decides which of its masterwork weapons it leaves behind because it cant carry it all? Not usually. Sometimes if the scenario in the adventure calls for it I pay closer attention, but usually after the first couple levels most of that stuff gets handwaved and we move on to the actual adventure.
I personally prefer to drop all silver and copper pieces from splitting loot and apply that to the keeping me fed and housed fund. Basically, if you have some uneven amount of loot - 333 gp for example - to be split by 4 players, I take the 2 silver, 5 copper left over from dividing it by 4 and say that amount goes to keeping my basics kept up with. If I ever have to buy something that costs less than 1 gp, same rule applies. All change is chopped off and goes to things like meals, trail rations, etc.
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In D&D/PF we keep track of everything -short of PC bathroom breaks or other minutia.
So Seasons, weather, carry capacity, months, days, rations, water, etc.
The amount of detail in each of the specifics may vary. So in some instances when the PCs go to market I may role-play out all the transactions - especially if it helps further the mood of the adventure (sinister evil befalling the town, murder mystery). It can all play into placing red herrings or giving minor vibes or insights - or sometimes the pcs produces a list of items needed, check to see if they are available and at what price and the transactions(s) are completed.
Going into and out of detail on an irregular basis is good dm tool imo. Most of the time my players don't panic when we start getting to the small and detailed level since most of the time it's just there to set the mood and feeling. In other words it doesn't become a cue that something huge is going to happen when some belligerent drunk starts yelling at the party -it just becomes something memorable, weird, funny, odd, etc and they move on. Also is great to have some pc/npc interactions that are not 100% story related. Also a good way to get some rp time amongst the players and some of their npc friends in the party.
So we do everything - it's just a question of how often we zoom into a detailed description of a specific event or activity that varies.
Also some tremendous detail may factor into the type of game you are running. We forgo details of bathroom breaks and just assume this stuff is taken care of a rests - which do occur during travels.
In a modern horror game the detail is much more specific. It's late at night and the investigators are staying at what they think is a haunted house. At one point someone may need to use the restroom (by themselves) or even step outside to make a phone call. Sometimes nothing happens or sometimes it's a great way to introduce a minor occurrence or scare.
So another factor is what kind of game you want to run with what level of immersion. The further away from reality the easier it is to hand wave a lot of detail and just focus on the bigger picture (killing the Dragon, etc).
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In the Kingmaker game I'm currently playing in, we're keeping detailed track of just about everything. The GM is especially focused on food and encumbrance, but also spell components (he did away with the all-encompasing spell component pouch), NPC relations, supplies available from Oleg, cash Oleg has on hand to purchase things, and so on and so forth.
Much of the time our group just handwaves this stuff, but we're having a really good time being thorough and realistic. It certainly helps that the group all around is very patient, usually we have at least one person who is too easily bored to want to deal with those things.
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In our games, we do not track rations, light source (torches being used), we don't really sleep or pay rent. All the details are left out and we mainly just have encounters. We buy stuff for our characters between games mostly.
in the games i play its very similar. we do "sleep" but the rest is spot on. its mostly dungeon crawls with cities in between.
unfortunately its not the most satisfying play style imho
There isn't a simple answer, really, because it's tweaking a rule of the game. Tweak the rule, change the game. There's also a matter of trust involved. The less trust (for both parties), the more tracking you absolutely require.
I tend to run at the extremes. Either everything is perversely detailed, or things just operate on a "is it reasonable?" rule.
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I pretty much handwave rations and living expenses away as 'petty'. You don't see movie heroes dealing with those things unless it makes for dramatic tension. With at will light and create water cantrips, I assume they will get by somehow. All I need to know is what effect they are having on their environment so I can figure out how it will react.
When I run, we always track expenses, sleep time, I even do calender and weather. But the nest time I run, instead of tracking all expenses, I am going with the cos of living optional rule in the core rule book.
One thing I do not require players to keep track of is basic projectile ammunition unless there would be a poignant story reason otherwise. In this respect, ammo works like in the Tomb Raider games. You can fire your basic 1d6/1d8 arrows from your bow all day long, but you better keep track of those incendiary rounds and flasks of lamp oil.
As far as living expenses go, in recent memory all of my groups have either been landed nobles, are working for one, or contain a party member who is effectively their sponsor. Effectively, the party members have a per diem that covers basic costs such as meals, lodging, stabling, etc.
Another way of implementing this is to actually define the amount of the per diem and what it can be spent upon. As an example, I created just such a trait for wealthy characters.
One other thing that I do not keep track of is the traditional method of Vancian spellcasting. I've found that it makes record keeping much easier and encourages versatility to introduce a bit more flexibility to spell preparation.
For more details, see the following write-up:
http://wiki.worldsunknown.com/wiki/Spellcasting
For PbPs, I maintain more than a few lists in my profile of various outfits characters are described as wearing, and posts that detail character/background exposition/development. These are useful for illustration and storytelling purposes.
Beyond that, I do attempt to keep track of the passage of days. I also use my wiki and wordpress sites to keep logs of the party's exploits and snapshots of maps in the order in which they have made progress. For ease of reference, I make certain to keep the link set as the homepage URL in my profile. That way, my players can always find it.
PbP Example: Crypt of the Everflame
PnP Example: Current homebrew chapter
Something else that I've found important, particularly for PbPs, is establishing the conventions by which things like rounds and initiative are tracked. For my games, I always count the rounds from the number 1 whether the first round is a surprise or full round. Some other DMs I play with only consider the first full round as round 1. (That's the meaning behind the #00 and #01, etc. suffixes on the map snapshots. #00 is if there is no combat taking place, #01 is round 1, letters on the end are incremental updates within a particular round.)
Anyway, hope this is helpful.
Uh, why was my post edited to remove references to ShortKeys and the time-keeping method I talked about?
We are currently level two and have yet to venture more than 1 hour away from a tavern/inn.
We track arrows, torches, sunstones, etc. We haven't yet had to track any rations though several of us have some ready.
I've noticed a trend at least in the groups I've been in- to track minutia at lower levels and hand waive them at higher levels. How many arrows you have at level 1 is very important but at level 15 you may not have time to stop and go back to town so its just hand-waived unless the item is expensive.
Most of us in the current group though can not see in the dark so it will be interesting to see how that all pans out. I'm not sure if we'll just be using alot of Light cantrips or if we'll become the torch maker's best buds.
-S
Uh, why was my post edited to remove references to ShortKeys and the time-keeping method I talked about?
The only person we have recorded as editing your post is you. Is it possible that you clicked your back button to the post creation page and resubmitted an incomplete version?
I am pushing our game toward more details in our upcoming CoCT campaign. I am a light nazi, so it will be a very intrical part of the game. Since CoCT is heavy urban I plan on a lot more negotiating/haggling for buying/selling of gear, and keeping track of cost of living expenses. I am also becoming much more of a time nazi as far as trackig time ouside of combat rounds.
The biggest change in details in my campaign is going to be DM rolls behind the screen. Up until now in our group all PC rolls were rolled by the players. I am going to take some of that away to incrase the mystery in the game. Reactionary Perception checks, sense motive checks, saves vs illusions, disease, and some poisons. I think this helps cut down on meta-gaming, and helps immerse players deeper into the game.
The only person we have recorded as editing your post is you. Is it possible that you clicked your back button to the post creation page and resubmitted an incomplete version?
Doubtful as I edited multiple times but each contained that section. I guess I'll just chalk it up to the dreaded Post Monster™ acting up. Thanks for the reply, Ross.
To make finding past events within a long-running PbP easier, I'm intending to use the following method when I start my new PbP game:
At the start of each new day, the following will be added to the thread:
Month = Full name of month, not its number (i.e. Gozran)
DD = two-digit day of the month (i.e. 05 for the 5th)
Xday = day of the week (optional, i.e. Moonday)
Since most of us won't be able to memorize the Golarion calendar, the link to the calendar page on the wiki is included so the DM can simply click Preview and then zip over there.
I keep this and many other PbP "macros" stored within a program called ShortKeys (Windows) or AutoKey (Linux). Basically, you just type a few letters (in this example I type "cln") and then that shortcut gets replaced by the block of text you've defined. Saves a TON of time and it's way faster than copying/pasting from text files.
The purpose of doing this is that it then allows players (or the DM) to search either the DM's post history, or the history of an individual thread for a specific time period (search: AR Calendar 4707 Gozran). Or to see a categorical listing of all the new days in the campaign (search: AR Calendar). When combined with a simple calendar app onto which the DM records a minor blurb about what happened that day, it should make referencing past events much easier for everyone involved... Provided month names are spelled consistently and correctly of course. ;)