How should I split a Barb / / Sorc?


Advice

Dark Archive

Hullo all. As the topic says, I am rolling a barb//sorc split for a friend's campaign, and was wondering how to split the levels and get the best flavor for the character and still be viable.

Currently, I am debating either an 11 Barb / 9 Undead bloodline Sorc split (so that I get the 9th level bloodline spell for flavor), but I was wondering if this is overextending my character too much.

I realize that no matter what, this won't be the strongest character out there. However, the group I play with is very roleplay oriented, and there are multiple multi-classed characters in play, so the character will probably have a better chance of remaining useful.

As a novice player, all constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Trei


Perhaps try it with a dragon discipline, it should work very well with a melee based caster, you have to be dragon bloodline, but other than that you have the spellcasting and the hp and the oomph behind... so something like: Sorc 2/ Barbarian 8/Dragon Discipline 10 for 16 bab +4 str +2 con +2 int 12 level bloodline abilities and 9. Level Casting so 4. Level spells which work best with buff spells...
just an idea to ponder over...


It really does depend on the kind of magic that you will specialise in and what level you are starting at. If your sorcerer is just going to self-buff and use magic to enhance his combat ability, it doesn't matter how many levels he has, anything will be useful.

If you are going barbarian just to be good in a fight, fighter is better and paladin synergises very well with sorcerer in Pathfinder (Charisma is their casting stat as well as being helpful for their other abilities, celestial bloodline sorcerer + paladin is really good). If you are going barbarian for the thematic side, go for as many levels as you can while spending enough sorcerer levels to get the buffs you want/need.

I would say draconic might be a better bloodline for a barbarian/sorcerer. A lot of the draconic powers are more combat oriented, like the claws and natural armour, which is a bonus to the barbarian. It's also a bit more 'likely' in the barbarian environment.

Spell selection is important, I would suggest that your barbarian take the biggest sword or axe he can lift and then rely on a shield spell for added protection. Any spell that boosts your ability or otherwise works while you are raging to help you out is good.

Edit: Yes, the dragon disciple is good with this build!

Shadow Lodge

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

Dark Archive

Actually, I was looking at the undead bloodline. Access to False Life, Mage Armor, and Rage seem like they should synergize quite nicely.


Kthulhu wrote:

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

I don't believe you... in my experience, if the opponent is still in one piece, they have a tendency to rise up and continue fighting later on... best to leave many, many pieces.


what has the bloodline to do with access to spells?

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Kthulhu wrote:

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

OMG! It's Ask a Shoanti's long lost brother! :D

Seriously though, I fully agree with the others. Draconic Bloodline into Dragon Disciple is the way to go when making a Barbarian/Sorcerer multi. As to the ratio, it really depends on what you want the character to concentrate on. For my build I went with one Level of Barbarian at 1st Level, then four Levels of Red Draconic Sorcerer followed by ten of Dragon Disciple (and the remaining five were mixed - I think I had down one or two more Barbarian and the rest Sorcerer).

Dark Archive

Flavor, mostly. With an elemental bloodline, I would plan to gear myself with elemental-based spells. With an Undead bloodline, I plan to use more necromancy and utility spells, rather than big flashes of fire and lightning.

Shadow Lodge

Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

I don't believe you... in my experience, if the opponent is still in one piece, they have a tendency to rise up and continue fighting later on... best to leave many, many pieces.

As I said, SOMETIMES. If you are facing multiple opponents, it is best to focus on the one that is actively attacking you, instead of the one that is playing possum. There will be time to cut them all into multiple pieces after they are all lying in pools of their own blood.

Or you can let the rogue take care of the fallen enemy. Other than opening locked doors and disabling deadly traps, it's why he's there.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Trei Shouri wrote:
Actually, I was looking at the undead bloodline. Access to False Life, Mage Armor, and Rage seem like they should synergize quite nicely.

Well you get mage armour with the Draconic Bloodline, plus when you go Dragon Disciple you retain a lot of your martial ability while still having access to higher level spells.

In addition, you also gain resist energy, which is also handy for a fighter type, preventing up to 30 points of energy damage a round and spell resistance, which cn also help mitigate harmful enemy spells.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Kthulhu wrote:

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

A follow up to this question: Do you prefer the Great Axe or the Two-Handed Sword for making the Cleave?

Dark Archive

At this point, I'm not really all that interested in taking a prestige class. I was more interested in a functional split between a pure barbarian and sorcerer.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Lord Fyre wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

A follow up to this question: Do you prefer the Great Axe or the Two-Handed Sword for making the Cleave?

Greataxe hands down... Two-Handed Sword just doesn't say "Head to Groin Cleave" to me. Two-Handed Sword is more of a "Cleave at the Waist" kinda weapon...


Trei Shouri wrote:
Actually, I was looking at the undead bloodline. Access to False Life, Mage Armor, and Rage seem like they should synergize quite nicely.

they will, but nothing stops you taking them as part of your normal sorcerer spell-list - in fact, if you do that you get them earlier, too. The spells you get as a draconic sorcerer are just as good to you: imagine transforming into a dragon and then raging ...


Lord Fyre wrote:
A follow up to this question: Do you prefer the Great Axe or the Two-Handed Sword for making the Cleave?

Come on, surely you've heard the old barbarian addage: "if it has a tip, you must re-equip!"

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

flash_cxxi wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

It will be easiest to split him at the waist, but it is rather satisfying to cleave someone vertically as well. I recommend a compromise, starting between the neck and shoulder and cutting diagonally down to the waist on the opposite side.

However, the true answer is to simply take whatever opportunity presents itself in combat. Sometimes you can drop the enemy without even splitting them completely in half.

A follow up to this question: Do you prefer the Great Axe or the Two-Handed Sword for making the Cleave?
Greataxe hands down... Two-Handed Sword just doesn't say "Head to Groin Cleave" to me. Two-Handed Sword is more of a "Cleave at the Waist" kinda weapon...

You are absolutely right! How silly of me.

Shadow Lodge

Lord Fyre wrote:
A follow up to this question: Do you prefer the Great Axe or the Two-Handed Sword for making the Cleave?

I'd go with the Great Axe. It's greater weight allows it to cleave through even the toughest of ogre bones and tendons.


Trei Shouri wrote:


As a novice player, all constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Trei

So, job one is for you to decide "good at what?" Do you intend to be a sorceror who occasionally loses his temper, or a melee barbarian who casts a spell once in a while?

I'll assume you picked b)

You want to look for spells that a) don't depend much on level, b) don't require a saving throw. The reason for this is because you'll never have the caster level or the CHA to compete with full-time sorcerors.

ex) imagine bbn5/sor1. Casting magic missle, you can do 1d4=1, much worse than a sorceror 6. However, your enlarge person makes you just as big.

You also want to look through the spell list real fast, and see what appeals to you. Do you see this character throwing around forcecages and cloudkills? If so, maybe sorceror is better for you. If things like bull strength, and see invisibility appeal to you, then bbn/sorc is for you.

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Every spell level will cost you about 6Hp and +1 BAB. So most of the time, I've seen people stop with four levels of sorceror. Get a bunch of good utility spells, and combat options like enlarge person and bull strength and shield. Use scrolls for the rest, you won't need expeditious retreat very often, for example.
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And for what it's worth, bard works better for this in many ways. More skills, more Hp, better BAB, better saving throws, and light armor. All of that means more feats for you to use on important things, like cleave.

Dark Archive

Thanks, rkraus. I'll pass on the bard for this campaign, but everything else makes sense (and doesn't insist that I should switch to Draconic bloodline xP).

As I'd already posted, I have primarily been looking at utility spells, so stopping at Sorc 4 might be better than going for the big fancy "Grasp of the Dead" ability. Though I might just bump it up to sorc 5 so I can free up a spell slot with the False Life bonus spell.

The Exchange

+1 on the Enlarge Person - a must-have buff for a Barbarian with a greataxe (at the end of the day, it does do more on a coup-de-grace than a greatsword ;) ).

(If you do think about a Prestige Class then Eldritch Knight is designed for split combat/caster characters, and pretty much the best way to make them viable - it does look awfully boring at first glance though... but then you see you're getting the best BAB and spells as if you were leveling as a caster too.)

Moment of Clarity is a rage power you'll want to look at. Pretty much pointless for most single-class Barbarians, it's essential stuff for the split-class Barbarian/caster - 'cos there's always some point mid-combat where it's suddenly essential to cast a spell, but ceasing the rage outright will nerf you into the ground...

You'll also want to look at maxing that Intimidation, and taking the Intimidation-based rage powers: with a high Charisma to be a Sorcerer anyway, this will be your big constant between the two classes. I'd advise high Strength too, with Intimidating Prowess + Skill Focus (Intimidate) to be the most terrifying thing in a loincloth! Add Dazzling Display and you can win many combats before even swinging a blow.

To do all that, you're gonna' want at least 8 levels of Barbarian (to qualify for the Terrifying Howl power). That could leave you with 12 levels of Sorcerer, but if you're going Undead Bloodline, I suspect that maxing that Death's Gift DR at level 9 is what you're really after. With 10 levels of Barbarian that's 12 DR/- (that does stack, right?). But you're, as a combat type, down a full 5 BAB due to the Sorcerer levels.

As a level 9 Sorcerer you can cast 4th level spells, but at level 10 you can cast 5th level - plus you get a +1 BAB at that level anyway: so a 10/10 split has to be better for you overall than an 11/9. Transformation school spells are often the favoured choice of the combat/caster multi-class character, at level 5 you can use Beast Shape III to become a Huge animal, or Elemental Body II to become a Medium elemental. You also, with level 5 spells, have access to the all-important Permanency, so you can layer a bunch of extra-sensory powers onto yourself and not worry about having to cast them when in full-on bezerk mode.

Hope some of that is some sort of help.


Dragon Disciple is very nice way to do this, but obviously it only works with Draconic Bloodline.
(I think I`ve posted multiple times how nice it would be to have some ¨Melee Bloodline PrC¨s for other Bloodlines)

Irregardless of that PrC, here`s some points:

  • The Spell Rage (granted by Undead Bloodline) DOES NOT STACK WITH BARBARIAN RAGE,
    they are both morale bonuses to Stats and the spell in fact directly says it is identical to Barbarian Rage.

  • IMHO, You really shouldn`t bother pumping CHA more than necessary to cast your spell levels as you gain them. Splitting stat focus 50/50 will just make you weaker at your main job (combat) without possibly competing with a Full Caster. If you want SOME offensive spells, try the ones that don`t allow a Save - many Full Casters already do exactly that anyways, and if you MUST take a spell that allows a Save, make sure it is multi-target.

  • That sort of takes away some of the steam of the CHA/Intimidation synergy... But the real issue is the ¨Intimidation¨ series of Rage Powers actually requires dedicating a large amount of your Rage Powers... Given you will have a lower BAB and lesser number of Rage Powers than full Barbarian, focusing on the meat+potatos (melee combat and utility rather than wonky new ability) seems a better strategy IMHO. (you might as well be a full Sorceror/Bard and take dazzling display if you want to do the double intimidate trick)

    An irritating thing about the ¨Intimidation¨ series of Rage Powers is that at the beginning you are encouraged to max out your Intimidation skill (to the extent of using your few valuable Feats), but Terrifying Howl ends up using it`s own formula independent of your Skill Ranking (using BARBARIAN LEVEL, of which yours is below par!), which means those Skill Boost Feats don`t apply to Terrifying Howl (though your GM may be nice here).

  • You don`t really need Moment of Clarity if you are content casting OUT of combat - Roused Anger is more useful in general, and lets you drop Rage, cast a spell, and re-enter Rage the very next round. Moment of Clarity is basically paying to not benefit from your Class Abilities, so any tactics you can find to achieve what you want to do in another way is probably more effective over-all. There are also other ways to remove Fatigue and thus be able to re-enter Rage.

  • Since you don`t want to be casting in-combat (for one, that means you aren`t attacking), MM Rods of Extend Spell are great once you can afford them, to keep up various buffs/utility spells.

  • At least pre-Quicken/Rod of Quicken, if you are casting during combat that means the most you can do otherwise is Move. To make the most of that, you want to get every AoO you can. Thus Enlarge Person and Reach Weapons are your friend.

  • Once you can Fly, check your GM if you can pick up Fly-By Attack. Like Spring Attack, except allowing ANY Standard Action though it doesn`t avoid AoO`s.

  • Max Acrobatics even if your DEX isn`t amazing. Eating AoO`s suck, and it doesn`t impede your action economy to try to avoid one. Magic can take over this vs alot of enemies, but Tumble is still another line of defense for AoO avoidance.

  • Concealment avoids AoO`s. Get it. (spells known)

  • You will have half the Rage Powers (and not the high level ones) compared to a full Barbarian, as well as a lower BAB. The only bonus Feats you have come from your Bloodline so make them count. Vital Strike is also a way to make a single attack count when your Iteratives might fail.

  • Rage Powers I see as useful: (quoted levels are Barb levels, not total character level)
    Knockback (useful on AoOs), Strength Surge (buffs your Knockback and defensively for CMD), Clear Mind (re-roll Will Save, of which you havea decent one from Sorceror levels and Rage Bonus, so maybe you don`t need Iron Will Feat), Unexpected Strike (AoO on threat entry @8th level), Roused Anger (re-enter Rage while fatigued), Mighty Swing (@12th, +hi crit range weapon), Animal Fury (extra attack @ BAB-5 balances your lower BAB and Iteratives)


  • Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    Although you stated you weren't interested in using prestige classes, there are very few good ways to split combat and arcane spells without using prestige classes: bard in Pathfinder core and alchemist or summoner (with the eidolon acting as the combatant) from the Advanced Player's Guide. Otherwise, you're going to have problems doing both (or either as you get into higher levels) effectively. One possible way to go (20-point buy):

    The Combat Sorcerer - this variation on the character concept focuses on the power of a draconic heritage. Spell progression starts slower than the bard (none for the first two levels), but improves fairly quickly (surpasses the bard around 7th-8th level); BAB is about the same. Thematically, the chaotic dragon bloodlines (black, red, white, brass, copper) fit this particular concept best (I used brass for the character below).

    Human Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 3
    16 Str (15 +1 level), 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha (13 +2 race)
    B1- Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion)
    B2- Rage Power (Animal Fury)
    S1- Arcane Strike, Eschew Materials
    S3- Arcane Armor Training
    Skills: Climb 2 (+8), Intimidate 2 (+7), Knowledge (Arcana) 5 (+9), Knowledge (Nature) 2 (+6), Perception 4 (+6), Spellcraft 3 (+7), Stealth 2 (+4), Survival 2 (+4), Use Magic Device 2 (+7)
    Spells (CL 3): 1st-6
    Spells Known: "fire-finger" (as ray of frost, but fire damage), detect magic. flare, mage hand, read magic; enlarge person, identify, mage armor (bloodline), true strike

    Identify and true strike are your first spell choices; identify because you (usually) can take the time remove your armor before casting it and true strike because it doesn't have a somatic component (no risk of arcane spell failure). Flare also doesn't have a somatic component (although its effect isn't much). At sorcerer 3, you can take Arcane Armor Training; hopefully you can acquire either a +1 mithral chain shirt (2100 gp; 10% ASF) or a mithral breastplate (4200 gp; 15% ASF) for a better AC than mage armor. Enlarge person is a good buff to put on yourself before raging (22 Str total, large size) if you want to do a lot of damage.

    Knowledge (Arcana) has been brought up to maximum to qualify for dragon disciple. Taking just four levels of dragon disciple gives the character +4 Str, +2 to Natural Armor (+3 total), Dragon Bite, and Breath Weapon. Very attractive for a combat character, even though they "only" gain +3 BAB and three levels of spell progression. The bonuses for the next four levels (Blindsense 30 ft, +2 Con, +2 Int, Dragon Form 1x/day, etc.) are IMO not worth the loss in BAB and total possible spell progression; taking all 10 levels of eldritch knight and 1 more level of sorcerer (barbarian 2/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10) gives BAB +17 and spell progression as a sorcerer 16 (8th level spells). At 10th level, the character may look similar to this:

    Spoiler:
    Human Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 1
    24 Str (15 +1 level +4 class +4 belt), 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha (13 +2 race +1 level +2 headband)
    Racial Traits: +2 to any one Ability Score (Cha); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Extra feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
    Class Features: Fast Movement (+10 ft), Rage (8 rounds/day; +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC), Rage Power (Animal Fury- 1d4 + 0.5 Str bonus bite attack at -5), Uncanny Dodge; Bloodline-Brass Dragon (Perception is class skill; +1 damage per die w/fire spells; Powers- Claws (1d6 + Str bonus, considered magic) 7 rounds/day, Dragon Resistances (Acid Resistance 5, +1 Natural Armor increase); Spells- mage armor, resist energy, fly), Cantrips, Eschew Materials; Blood of Dragons, Natural Armor Increase (+2), Ability Boost (+4 Str), Bloodline Feat (1), Dragon Bite (additional attack with claws, 1d6 + 1.5 Str bonus), Extra Spellcasting (+3 Sorcerer), Breath Weapon (7d6 fire, 60 ft line, DC 17) 1x/day; Bonus Feat (1), Diverse Training
    Skills*: Climb 2 (+7/+9), Intimidate 5 (+19/+21), Knowledge (Arcana) 5 (+9/+11), Knowledge (Nature) 2 (+6/+8), Perception 6 (+8/+10), Spellcraft 8 (+12/+14), Stealth 2 (+3/+5), Survival 2 (+4/+6), Use Magic Device 7 (+14/+16)
    Feats: Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Strike, Dazzling Display (Falchion), Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion)
    Spells (CL 6)*: 1st-7, 2nd-6 (5), 3rd-4 (3)
    Spells Known: "fire-finger", detect magic. flare, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue; enlarge person, identify, mage armor, magic missile, true strike; false life, resist energy, scorching ray; fly, heroism
    Gear: +2 mithral breastplate (+8 AC, +5 Max Dex, -1 Armor Check; 8,200 gp), +1 composite longbow (+7 Str bonus) (3,100 gp), +1 keen falchion (8,375 gp), ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +2 (8,000 gp), belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), headband of alluring charisma +2 (4,000 gp), 325 gp of miscellaneous gear

    Combat*: AC 27 (touch 14, flat-footed 25), 82.5 (94) avg. hp, +16/+11 (+18/+13) falchion (2d4+11 damage, 15-20/x2) or +10/+5 (+12/+7) longbow (1d8+8 damage, 20/x3), Fort +11 (+13), Ref +6 (+8), Will +6 (+8), Init +6, CMB +14, CMD 26
    *- second values include the effects of false life (6 hour duration; 1d10+6 temporary hp, average 11.5) and heroism (60 min duration; +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and saves)

    Melee Combat Tactics: If given advance warning, casts enlarge person (6 min duration; +2 Str, -2 Dex, large size) on self before combat. Round 1- casts true strike (+20 on next attack roll, ignore concealment miss chance) as a standard action (using Arcane Armor Mastery as a swift action) and moves 40 ft while drawing the falchion as a move action; Round 2- activates Arcane Strike (weapon gains +2 untyped bonus to damage) as a swift action, enters Rage (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC) as a free action, moves toward opponent(s) at 40 ft and Power Attacks (-2 on attack roll, +6 on damage rolls), Round 3+- continues Rage and Power Attacks with a full-attack action; alternately, may use Dazzling Display as a full-attack action with +25 (+26 if enlarge person is active, +30 vs. medium size or smaller foes) on the Intimidate check. This can occur approximately 2 times per day for combats lasting 5 rounds on average (Rage); enlarge person and true strike can be cast up to 3 times per day in combination (7 1st level spell slots); Arcane Strike and Power Attack are unlimited.

    AC 23 (touch 12, flat-footed 22), 114 avg. hp, +18/+13 (+38 with true strike) falchion (2d6+24 damage, 15-20/x2) and +12 bite (1d6+8 damage, 20/x2), Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +10, CMB +18, CMD 30
    OR
    AC 25 (touch 12, flat-footed 23), 114 avg. hp, +18/+13 (+38 with true strike) falchion (2d4+22 damage, 15-20/x2) and +12 bite (1d4+7 damage, 20/x2), Fort +15, Will +10, CMB +16, CMD 28

    You mention you were leaning toward the Undead bloodline to get the 9th level bonus spell (animate dead). There's nothing preventing you from taking it as a normal 4th-level spell pick, so I'm wondering a bit why this is a sticking point. If you go with barbarian 2/sorcerer 3/dragon disciple 10/eldritch knight 5, instead of the progression I used above, you'll end up with BAB +15, spell progression as a sorcerer 14, and all the Draconic bloodline abilities (including bonus spells like fear and spell resistance) up to level 13, plus the dragon disciple additions/expansions.

    Dark Archive

    Wow. Major bump of useful information. Thanks again!

    And @Dragonchess Player, I am not aiming to get the bonus spell "Animate Dead." I was originally aiming for the flavor of the sorcerer's ninth level bloodline ability (skeletal arms bursting from the ground and ripping at targets in an AoE) to go along with the character's scythe weapon (which she has because she starts out as a field slave dropped into a gladiatorial pit straight from work, even though it is probably not the most optimal weapon).

    After that, I ended up liking the flavor of the necromancy buffs and spells, and figured I would see if I could run with it.

    Edit:

    Also, I guess I should note that the DM told me it is a "standard" buy, so I am looking at the following stat block at level 1 Barbarian:

    16 STR // 10 DEX // 14 CON // 7 INT // 7 WIS // 16 CHA

    The Exchange

    Quote:
    ... Roused Anger is more useful in general, and lets you drop Rage, cast a spell, and re-enter Rage the very next round. Moment of Clarity is basically paying to not benefit from your Class Abilities, so any tactics you can find to achieve what you want to do in another way is probably more effective over-all....

    Interesting, but it does have a couple of disadvantages over Moment of Clarity:

    First, you're fatigued while dropped out of rage to cast. Admittedly this will seldom effect your actual casting, unless it's a spell requiring a ranged attack roll, but it will lower (slightly) both your AC and your chance to hit with any AoO which come your way. How much this actually matters to you will effect your choice of rage powers.

    Secondly, the big downside of Roused Anger - the 10 minutes per round of rage fatigue! That's 50x the usual fatigue time. Sure you can use Roused Anger to pop back into rage if you have to - but eating rounds of rage just to negate your Strength and Dexterity penalties or (more to the point) just to run is not a good thing. Whether this matters much will depend on the situation your guy is in, and the style of the group you play in: if your group tends to stop to let the spellcasters rest and regain spells every combat or so, then you're probably okay. If you had to drop rage to cast that vital spell because you needed it to help flee the onrushing demonics hordes, then the sudden and protracted inability to actually run will tend to make Moment of Clarity suddenly look like it may have been a wise choice... Or put another way: rage = take a few seconds to catch your breath, Roused Anger = let's find the nearest tavern lads, I'm bushed!

    So yes - interesting, and perfectly viable, but make sure you know what you're getting into, and if you go this route I'd definitly make sure some of those 'other methods for removing fatigue' were on hand - DMs are known to spring stuff on PCs when they're tired... ;)


    Trei Shouri wrote:

    Wow. Major bump of useful information. Thanks again!

    After that, I ended up liking the flavor of the necromancy buffs and spells, and figured I would see if I could run with it.

    16 STR // 10 DEX // 14 CON // 7 INT // 7 WIS // 16 CHA

    If you're after flavor, re-flavor the spells you DO have. Either Web or Grease could be explained as skeletal arms erupting from the ground. As long as you're not changing the mechanics, it should be fine.

    Likewise, Mage Armor could easily summon a protective exoskeleton. Shield could be a ghost who stands in front of you.

    Don't play the character you want in 10 levels. Play the character you want NOW.

    Dark Archive

    @rkraus:
    When I spoke to my GM yesterday, he did allow me to incorporate scythe swings for somatic components of spells, given that the character is a "barbarian" more than a traditional arcane caster. And I do believe that he would be cool with me using the undead imagery for the spells, so long as I am clear that it does not alter the actual game mechanics. I still prefer the Undead bloodline flavor over the Draconic, but I understand what you mean when you talk about reshaping fluff text.

    @Profpotts:
    That is a very valid point, because my character already suffers from nightmares and is probably going to need more rest than other party members. It seems that fatigue is going to be a constant threat this game.

    Edit:
    However, I'm not entirely sure what the "other methods" of removing fatigue are, aside from perhaps loading the character up with coffee.


    Trei Shouri wrote:

    @Profpotts:

    That is a very valid point, because my character already suffers from nightmares and is probably going to need more rest than other party members. It seems that fatigue is going to be a constant threat this game.

    Edit:
    However, I'm not entirely sure what the "other methods" of removing fatigue are, aside from perhaps loading the character up with coffee.

    The other methods mostly involve spells or abilities that can remove Fatigue. If one of your allies can do this (Cleric or Paladin with Mercies), great, or a Wand of said spell via UMD (you don`t get it, but Arcane Bloodline can get their own Familiar so this doesn`t cost actions of any PCs). Tends to be costly of either spell slots or items, but can be very very effective. (just like why Endless Rage is great, you can use 1/Rage powers every round)

    If your character is going to be Fatigued ANYWAYS, I think you will almost certainly want Roused Anger since otherwise you will have problems raging irrespective of dropping Rage in combat to cast a spell. Anyways, my main point there was that if you can choose spells that you won`t want to cast IN COMBAT (specifically, after you`re already raging), then you`ve gotten rid of the problem by focusing on things that DON`T conflict.

    And don`t forget to check out the APG when it arrives, there may be some new Rage Powers / Barbarian Variants that would play up the Undead aspect...


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    Trei Shouri wrote:

    @Dragonchess Player, I am not aiming to get the bonus spell "Animate Dead." I was originally aiming for the flavor of the sorcerer's ninth level bloodline ability (skeletal arms bursting from the ground and ripping at targets in an AoE) to go along with the character's scythe weapon (which she has because she starts out as a field slave dropped into a gladiatorial pit straight from work, even though it is probably not the most optimal weapon).

    After that, I ended up liking the flavor of the necromancy buffs and spells, and figured I would see if I could run with it.

    Edit:

    Also, I guess I should note that the DM told me it is a "standard" buy, so I am looking at the following stat block at level 1 Barbarian:

    16 STR // 10 DEX // 14 CON // 7 INT // 7 WIS // 16 CHA

    I thought "9th level bloodline spell" meant the bonus spell.

    Background/concept details always help with planning the character progression; this concept could actually work as a barbarian who's made a pact with death (or daemons, some death deity, etc.). Actually, scythe is one of the better selections, especially if you invest in increasing damage and criticals; also, you can just hold the scythe in one hand while casting spells and switch to a two-handed grip (free action) when done.

    My suggested progression:

    Human Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 3
    16 Str (14 +2 race), 12 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha (13 +1 level)
    B1- Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Scythe)
    B2- Rage Power (Intimidating Glare)
    S1- Arcane Strike, Eschew Materials
    S3- Arcane Armor Training
    Skills: Climb 2 (+7), Intimidate 5 (+10), Knowledge (Arcana) 2 (+6), Knowledge (Religion) 2 (+6), Perception 4 (+6), Spellcraft 3 (+7), Stealth 2 (+3), Survival 2 (+4), Use Magic Device 2 (+7)
    Spells (CL 3): 1st-6
    Spells Known: bleed, detect magic. flare, mage hand, read magic; enlarge person, identify, chill touch (bloodline), true strike

    Flare and true strike are still your first spell choices because they can be cast in armor without chance of failure; you can always re-flavor them with spooky effects (exploding skulls, eyes turn completely black). Identify ("spirit reading") is still a good choice, although unseen servant ("ghostly companion") can also work with a 1 hour/level duration. At sorcerer 3, you still want Arcane Armor Training and should acquire a +1 mithral chain shirt (2100 gp; 10% ASF) or a mithral breastplate (4200 gp; 15% ASF). Enlarge person is still a great choice.

    Add three more levels of sorcerer (daze and spectral hand, ray of enfeeblement and command undead with false life as a bonus, touch of fatigue and heroism); consider Cleave, Dazzling Display, Extra Rage, or Intimidating Prowess as your feat choice. Also, try to get a spell storing scythe ASAP. At his point (barbarian 2/sorcerer 6), you are eligible for eldritch knight (and with a BAB of +5 are starting to fall behind the 3/4 BAB classes), so start alternating eldritch knight and sorcerer levels. This also gives you a bunch of feats over the next three levels:
    EK1-one general, one bonus (good choices include Arcane Armor Mastery*, Lunge, Shatter Defenses if Dazzling Display was taken earlier, and Vital Strike)
    *- taking advantage of Diverse Training
    S7-one bloodline (Iron Will or Toughness); also gain vampiric touch as a bonus spell
    EK2-one general (any of the already named feats)

    Take two more levels of sorcerer (to get the 9th level bloodline abilities) and then all remaining levels as eldritch knight. As a barbarian 2/sorcerer 9/eldritch knight 9, you end up with a +15 BAB and spell progression as a sorcerer 17 (not bad). As long as you don't want to attack in the same round you're casting spells, just decide which of Arcane Armor Training/Mastery or Arcane Strike is activated as your swift action (invest in a metamagic rod of Still Spell if you pick up Quicken Spell as a feat). Also, switching back and forth between rage and casting in combat tends to be counterproductive; either cast for a round or two (to disable/hinder foes and/or self-buff) before raging and fighting OR just cast spells.

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