That can be a real gray area and I am pretty sure it is up to the individual GM for the ruling. Some will say that counts as PVP, which is not allowed in PFS games, while others will say it is perfectly fine since one player is not doing something directly to the other player's character. As far as I know, Josh has never given a definite ruling on anything beyond attacking another character.
I think the practice of interfering with other players' prestige (and thus wealth) progression is pushing the lines of griefing and is not welcome at any table I run. How other GMs interpret this type of activity, and how they handle at their tables, is completely up to them. As mentioned above, there is no official ruling yet on whether this constitutes PVP.
I had this issue come up a while ago when I first started pathfinder society. I didn't think much of it but it didn't seem right. What happens if a player knows something is another factions item, and finds and destroys it before they get to it? Is that something that is banned from being done?
It's certainly impolite to do so, but note that a Make Whole spell only costs 60 gp, so it's not the end of the world.
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I disallow that from happening in my games and I back it up with the rule about interfering in another players faction goals.
I'm currently going through the GOP with a highlighter, to hopefully distill out a 1-2 page quick summary for new to the table players. Which rule are you referring to here? Thanks!
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I'm currently going through the GOP with a highlighter, to hopefully distill out a 1-2 page quick summary for new to the table players. Which rule are you referring to here? Thanks!I disallow that from happening in my games and I back it up with the rule about interfering in another players faction goals.
Possibly, from page 8:
Cooperate: The Society places no moral obligationsupon its members, so agents span all races, creeds,
and motivations. At any given time, a Pathfinder
lodge might house a fiend-summoning Chelaxian,
an Andoren freedom fighter, an antiquities-obsessed
Osirian necromancer, and a friendly Taldan raconteur.
Pathfinder agents are expected to respect one another’s
claims and stay out of each other’s affairs unless offering
a helping hand.
Additionally, on page 9:
While the leadership of the Society turns a blind eye
to faction participation, should rival faction Pathfinders
ever war openly or violate the three rules of the Society
because of their petty shadow war feuds, that would be
the day that factions inside the Society came to a close,
violently if necessary. As such, the various faction leaders
have made it quite clear to their members that open
warfare, no matter what the reason, is intolerable and will
only jeopardize the ability of each faction to manipulate
Absalom to their will.
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Thanks for the assist Callarek, I also would say the PvP rules also apply too.
I've also said that the faction leaders don't want them to expose themselves as faction members and their factions have people that can work directly against enemy agents, thye should worry about keeping thier cover.
Those rules would be hard to apply since I don't know what other faction missions are. Most of the tables I've been at don't tell each other our Missions unless we are asking for help with a specific roll at a certian time.
The only time I personally could have cost someone their PA point, was when I was attacked by a NPC specific to their mission, I took out the NPC and the other faction got upset. But I was not going to let the NPC have free hits on me and not defend myself, if that cost them thier point, too bad. What was the GM supposed to do, not hit me(Out Of Character, because I was in the wrong faction)?
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My situation was the other player knowing what the faction mission was, entering the room first and finding the paper my character needed and secretly destroying it. ( I believe some note or something was passed to the GM)
In the grand scheme of things, I really don't care for it happening once, but That is hardly something I would want to be a regular occurrence and would call them out on it. It happened in my 3rd game ever with PFS so I was still pretty green. It really made me see that player as a person differently. My initial feelings were they were pretty cool and fun to play with. Now I see them as the type that has fun at the expense of others, which I have no respect for
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My situation was the other player knowing what the faction mission was, entering the room first and finding the paper my character needed and secretly destroying it. ( I believe some note or something was passed to the GM)
In the grand scheme of things, I really don't care for it happening once, but That is hardly something I would want to be a regular occurrence and would call them out on it. It happened in my 3rd game ever with PFS so I was still pretty green. It really made me see that player as a person differently. My initial feelings were they were pretty cool and fun to play with. Now I see them as the type that has fun at the expense of others, which I have no respect for
I've been at a table where I've seen the rogue's player find a book/papers and pocket them, I assume for their faction mission. But, I've never seen it effect my mission. I've yet to see any faction missions that counterdict or interfere with one another. So maybe it was a one time fluke?
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My situation was the other player knowing what the faction mission was, entering the room first and finding the paper my character needed and secretly destroying it. ( I believe some note or something was passed to the GM)
In the grand scheme of things, I really don't care for it happening once, but That is hardly something I would want to be a regular occurrence and would call them out on it. It happened in my 3rd game ever with PFS so I was still pretty green. It really made me see that player as a person differently. My initial feelings were they were pretty cool and fun to play with. Now I see them as the type that has fun at the expense of others, which I have no respect for
As a GM I would have politely reminded the player who sent me the secret note of the rules of the in-character Pathfinder Society and then asked again if they wished to perform that specific action. If they persist in going through with what they're planning on doing, I would make sure they understand the potential sanctions when I pass the player's name and society number to Josh and ask again if that's what they really want to do.
The player that did that to you clearly violated the "don't be a jerk" rule. I believe everybody should have the chance to explain that the situation was an "oops", but anybody persisting in such a clear violation of both the intent and word of the rules should be penalized for harming the fun of others.
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My situation was the other player knowing what the faction mission was, entering the room first and finding the paper my character needed and secretly destroying it. ( I believe some note or something was passed to the GM)
Unless he was also of the faction that lost the point, the player might know the faction mission, but his character doesn't... unless he has some motivation to destroy that particular object i would remind him of this fact
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Thanks for the assist Callarek, I also would say the PvP rules also apply too.
I've also said that the faction leaders don't want them to expose themselves as faction members and their factions have people that can work directly against enemy agents, thye should worry about keeping thier cover.
Those rules would be hard to apply since I don't know what other faction missions are. Most of the tables I've been at don't tell each other our Missions unless we are asking for help with a specific roll at a certian time.
The only time I personally could have cost someone their PA point, was when I was attacked by a NPC specific to their mission, I took out the NPC and the other faction got upset. But I was not going to let the NPC have free hits on me and not defend myself, if that cost them thier point, too bad. What was the GM supposed to do, not hit me(Out Of Character, because I was in the wrong faction)?
It's hard for me to comment about that since I don't know the specific situation your talking about. But since you are defending yourself I would say you had no other choice. I will avoid monday morning quarterbacking this senario and just say I stand by my words as I was speaking as a GM rather than a player.
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I think trouble with secrets had a situation where one faction had to save someone that was currently dominated and attacking the party.
I can think of another module in which one faction needed to bring in the BBEG alive. I've seen a single crit take him down to dead-dead in one hit, which when performed by a non-faction member can be frustrating.
My advice: keep your faction a secret. :-)
Kinky.
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My situation was the other player knowing what the faction mission was, entering the room first and finding the paper my character needed and secretly destroying it. ( I believe some note or something was passed to the GM)
In the grand scheme of things, I really don't care for it happening once, but That is hardly something I would want to be a regular occurrence and would call them out on it. It happened in my 3rd game ever with PFS so I was still pretty green. It really made me see that player as a person differently. My initial feelings were they were pretty cool and fun to play with. Now I see them as the type that has fun at the expense of others, which I have no respect for
Actually, unless the player's PC was of the same faction, it sounds to me like the player was breaking some of the other, more formal rules, too.
His playing the module sounds like it would only be allowed for a short table under the Play, Play, Play replay rules, as he either GMed the module or played it before; and that he was therefore using OOC knowledge to have his PC "break" the module for the other, legal, players.
If you spoil the plot for the table, the GM has the right
to ask you to leave the table and is under no obligation
to reward you a chronicle sheet. Be very careful about
character knowledge versus player knowledge. If you’re
concerned about possibly spoiling something during the
course of play, take the GM aside and ask how he would like
it handled. Remember: the goal of replay is to make sure
fun gaming happens, not to remove the fun from gaming.
Using OOC knowledge to screw with a faction mission would still be considered, IMO, as spoiling the plot for the table, or essentially removing the fun from gaming for the members of the faction you decided to screw over.
Bad gaming, at a bare minimum, if not well on the way to full-blown cheating.
My advice: keep your faction a secret. :-)
I've actually seen more faction missions spoiled accidentally than on purpose. In which case it's probably more to your advantage to get the other party members to agree to help you with your faction mission up front.
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My advice: keep your faction a secret. :-)I've actually seen more faction missions spoiled accidentally than on purpose. In which case it's probably more to your advantage to get the other party members to agree to help you with your faction mission up front.
The only time the group I play with has had real trouble was when one faction kept their mission secret and my character prevented them from completing it without realising it. (I think they had to keep someone alive, I rather mis-judged how squishy that someone was and hit it twice with a big weapon before they even got into the room, killing it dead). I was rather unhappy when I realised I'd messed up their mission as in the end it hurts an entire party if some members don't get PA and (particularly in an environment where you tend to be adventuring with the same characters) that actually hurts every character. Since then we've been sort of surreptitiously open with each other about our missions and agree not to get in each others' way, which has worked out ok.
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I tend to be quite open about my faction missions if asked, and very willing to assist other players with their missions if they want to share them with me. Helping people out is *fun*. I tend to feel way more accomplished if I've assisted someone else succeed at something than if I've somehow caused them to fail, and that's the way I like it.
Random anecdotal tangent - I've had players who are very open with their faction, and people who are very secretive about it. Almost without fail, the secretive players have been Chelaxians. I recall a few Qadirans who were cagey about their faction, but that's it. I've never known an Andoran, Osirion or Taldan not to admit their faction if asked. Anyone else experienced this, or have you found secrecy more all-encompassing?
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The only time the group I play with has had real trouble was when one faction kept their mission secret and my character prevented them from completing it without realising it. (I think they had to keep someone alive, I rather mis-judged how squishy that someone was and hit it twice with a big weapon before they even got into the room, killing it dead). I was rather unhappy when I realised I'd messed up their mission as in the end it hurts an entire party if some members don't get PA and (particularly in an environment where you tend to be adventuring with the same characters) that actually hurts every character. Since then we've been sort of surreptitiously open with each other about our missions and agree not to get in each others' way, which has worked out ok.
Actually - we had the complete opposite mission in my last game - kill a certain person (who also was the BBE). We are fighting him - I blast him with a Scroching Ray for 20 points of damage plus set him aflame (added an Alechemist Fire). So he goes down in flames. For a moment I think - mission accomplished.
Unfortunately the Monk - closest to him - and who softened him up - then did a Heal check - rolled an 18 - and stabilized the BBE.
As a LG Andoran - this would have been the end of it. I would not have killed a helpless person. I couldn't fault the monk - as stabilizing a bleeding foe is something I have done often enough in the past. As there were four Andorans on the table, the most chaotic one arranged a staged escape and the demise of the BBE.
As a player my first reaction to the monks action was - oh no. I should have let slip I want the person dead. At the same time I wasn't faulting the player at all - this just was making a lot of sense role-play wise. And as mentioned - it ended with the PA awarded in the end.
What I have problems with is if a player tries to deliberately take away an item. This happened in one of the games I GMed. Player 1 - with a failed perception check - asks the rogue - I look for a certain item. Can you help me find it. The rogue helps, finds it - and then attempts a sleight of hand to let it disappear.
Fortunately an experienced player on the table was pretty unhappy with this action and asked to do an opposed perception check to the sleight of hand - successful. So the rogue was convinced to hand over the item.
A different issue is if you accidently destroy items (or kill people). I'm guilty myself. My mission was to destroy certain paperwork without anyone noticing. I thought it was a great idea to use a scroll of fireball that I had as a last resort - to detonate between BBE and where I expected the papers to be. I reckoned unprotected papers in a fireball blast shouldn't survive.
Unfortunately the desk on which my papers were also had some papers for another faction which also went up in flames.
In the future I should take care to add Make Whole as the next spell to my spell book (I'm a tranmutation wizard anyhow) as it would help in some cases. But sometimes it just happens that someone non-deliberately destroys someone else mission - or at least makes it a lot harder. So I also think that dropping some hints - I want that person/creature alive/dead can help.
I will also take more care to ask people about flamable objects - from next level on I can cast fireball as part of my spells.
And helping others seldom hurts. I already fullfilled missions for other factions - in most cases without even knowing. As a wizard with profession scribe, calligraphy 10+ and knowing the necessary language I was asked if I could copy some notes on an obelisk. I took pride in doing a great job using my best paper and embellishing the capital letters in red ink. Only seeing the smile on the face of the player who asked me (my wife) did tell me that I just had fullfilled a mission that would have been difficult for her dwarven fighter without any equipment/skills.
Maybe this is just the way we do it in the UK - help each other much more often as the opposite.
Thod
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I tend to be quite open about my faction missions if asked, and very willing to assist other players with their missions if they want to share them with me. Helping people out is *fun*. I tend to feel way more accomplished if I've assisted someone else succeed at something than if I've somehow caused them to fail, and that's the way I like it.
I have had a bit of a problem with this as a GM, as it can really stretch into meta-gaming very easily. Theoretically, the vast majority of the PFS are not members of a Secret Faction, and those that are members are supposed to be at least rivals with each other. While I understand that inter-faction cooperation helps defuse PvP, surely there must be something in between opposition and univerasal helping.
As an example, I ran a scenario with a faction mission that required an ability check, and also needed to be performed with no witnesses. The 2 members of the faction in question were unable to make the check DC, so they called in another character to make the check. Then I was told the other character looked away while the faction members obtained the needed item (after the fact). Kind of like the old paladin-leaves-the-room-while-we-torture shtick. I didn't give the PA.
I tend to be quite open about my faction missions if asked, and very willing to assist other players with their missions if they want to share them with me. Helping people out is *fun*. I tend to feel way more accomplished if I've assisted someone else succeed at something than if I've somehow caused them to fail, and that's the way I like it.I have had a bit of a problem with this as a GM, as it can really stretch into meta-gaming very easily. Theoretically, the vast majority of the PFS are not members of a Secret Faction, and those that are members are supposed to be at least rivals with each other. While I understand that inter-faction cooperation helps defuse PvP, surely there must be something in between opposition and univerasal helping.
That's what I don't like about the faction system in general. As a player, I want to help the other players at the table, not dick around with their PCs. :-(
But lots of people love the faction system, I'm sure, so c'est la vie.
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As an example, I ran a scenario with a faction mission that required an ability check, and also needed to be performed with no witnesses. The 2 members of the faction in question were unable to make the check DC, so they called in another character to make the check. Then I was told the other character looked away while the faction members obtained the needed item (after the fact). Kind of like the old paladin-leaves-the-room-while-we-torture shtick. I didn't give the PA.
I would not have given the PA in that situation either, since it was supposed to be in Secret, by brining in the other player that was not of their faction they ruined the secret part.
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I think the biggest issues at hand here are...
(1) The conditions of the mission. As for getting help when it's not secret, it is perfectly possible to be all "hey, can you give me a hand with this, I'm trying to get 'X'". In all honesty, yes, people getting their PA is helpful because it helps to guarantee that character keeps up with the gear curve. But the reality is we are given 'ideal' and 'less than ideal' classes for each faction for a reason: it implies the kinds of tasks we can expect. And even with one of those classes, it is seldom we'll always be able to do it on our own.
(2) Did you actually tell them your faction? If the conditions of the mission say it has to be done in secret, then it is done in secret. If you are unable to do it in secret (ie By yourself/with faction members only) then while it sucks, you failed the mission. On the other hand if 'in secret' is not a condition, you can absolutely try and get some 'assistance' without ever giving away your affiliation directly.
And helping others seldom hurts. I already fulfilled missions for other factions - in most cases without even knowing. As a wizard with profession scribe, calligraphy 10+ and knowing the necessary language I was asked if I could copy some notes on an obelisk. I took pride in doing a great job using my best paper and embellishing the capital letters in red ink. Only seeing the smile on the face of the player who asked me (my wife) did tell me that I just had fulfilled a mission that would have been difficult for her dwarven fighter without any equipment/skills.
I think the above is a perfect example of doing this appropriately. He never knew, in character, he'd helped someone with some shadowy affiliation to faction accomplish a mission. He had simply followed the Pathfinder Society precept of 'cooperate/work together'. This is alright, as long as there wasn't a condition of the mission broken. At tables I have played at it has generally been like this: people have tasks they want to accomplish they occasionally ask for help for "hey, I'm trying to find this" or "hey, hold on, we should take him prisoner".
3) Sometimes players are being jerks and we have rules that discourage such behavior. However, if a player announces their faction/mission it is a different story. If someone should stab too hard or accidentally allow an item to be destroyed I can't help but say that they have gotten what they deserve. Factions are secret for a reason and sometimes so are missions. I'm not encouraging PvP or full blown espionage against fellow players, but I would think sticking to secrecy of your allegiance and at times of your task when it is asked of you (ie Following the rules) protects you from these things most of the time. And the rest of the time the offending player is then acting on OOC knowledge and the GM has rights to intervene.
Finally...
I've had players who are very open with their faction, and people who are very secretive about it. Almost without fail, the secretive players have been Chelaxians.
As far as Chelaxians being very secretive...well, our missions aren't exactly pure. And our motivations less so. It'd make sense we have less interest in divulging than, say, a group of Andorans. And for the last time, that 'fiend' is my bodyguard. How dare you insinuate I am an agent of the Chelish throne. ;)
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That's what I don't like about the faction system in general. As a player, I want to help the other players at the table, not dick around with their PCs. :-(
To clarify, I have run & played at many tables which helped each other on missions, or at least did not interfere with each other, and everything was handled in a way which did not destroy the narrative logic. Clever manipulation, diversion, side deals... any of these should potentially work, without devolving into "Oh, that's her faction mission. We should all help her." or "..ruin things for her."
I also think that much of the competetive nature of the factions was taken out with the removal of the total prestige tracking from Season 0 (understandably).
However, I also still believe that obtaining 1 PA should be fairly easy, with the 2nd being more challenging. Having the wholesale assistance of the other 4 rival factions does a lot to water down that challenge.