This feat seems like a must have for rogues, am I missing something about it?
Shatter Defenses (Combat)
Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
This is a good one, but it can take a while to set up. You also have to succeed at an Intimidate check for it to work and Dazzling Display is a full round action to set up. Another way to go is the improved feint feat tree using bluff for the same basic effect.
The advantage of using Shatter Defenses is that anything that causes a listed condition will work so a party spell caster or barbarian could set you up to get it to work on the first round.
Finally both of the feat trees that lead you to be able to sneak attack could be avoided and you will still get sneak attack with flanking. So while it is a good choice I feel it is far from a must have option.
Good choice for boss rogues since it means they don't have to waste actions moving into flank.
Bad choice for PC rogues, because the intimidate DC gets harder and harder until suddenly creatures suddenly become immune to fear altogether.
Remember you get a minus 4 for intimidating creatures larger than you. It stings.
Good choice for boss rogues since it means they don't have to waste actions moving into flank.
Bad choice for PC rogues, because the intimidate DC gets harder and harder until suddenly creatures suddenly become immune to fear altogether.
Remember you get a minus 4 for intimidating creatures larger than you. It stings.
The DC is 10 + 1/2 hit dice + wisdom modifier.
Yes the -4 hurts, but it is also easy to make up for.
That being said it's the number of feats involved that really makes it hurt to me.
This is a good one, but it can take a while to set up. You also have to succeed at an Intimidate check for it to work and Dazzling Display is a full round action to set up. Another way to go is the improved feint feat tree using bluff for the same basic effect.
Althought it's not much better, you only need to Demoralize an opponent, which is just a Standard action. Either way, demoralize one or dazzle them all, you won't be attacking on the same round you make them shaken.
Finally both of the feat trees that lead you to be able to sneak attack could be avoided and you will still get sneak attack with flanking. So while it is a good choice I feel it is far from a must have option.
Agreed.
I would rather just get a ring of invisibility, get into flanking position, and begin the butchery. Especially at these levels where iterative attacks every round are crucial. Giving up entire rounds for a chance (that might fail) to get some sneak attacks half the time is a losing proposition. Worse, you have to spend feats to get this losing proposition.
Far from a "must have" for anyone.
Good choice for boss rogues since it means they don't have to waste actions moving into flank.
Bad choice for PC rogues, because the intimidate DC gets harder and harder until suddenly creatures suddenly become immune to fear altogether.
Remember you get a minus 4 for intimidating creatures larger than you. It stings.
The DC is 10 + 1/2 hit dice + wisdom modifier.
Yes the -4 hurts, but it is also easy to make up for.
That being said it's the number of feats involved that really makes it hurt to me.
Don't forget you have to beat their DC by 5. If you don't, then their shaken condition wears off at the start of your next turn, before you ever get a chance to sneak attack the victim.
Don't forget you have to beat their DC by 5. If you don't, then their shaken condition wears off at the start of your next turn, before you ever get a chance to sneak attack the victim.Good choice for boss rogues since it means they don't have to waste actions moving into flank.
Bad choice for PC rogues, because the intimidate DC gets harder and harder until suddenly creatures suddenly become immune to fear altogether.
Remember you get a minus 4 for intimidating creatures larger than you. It stings.
The DC is 10 + 1/2 hit dice + wisdom modifier.
Yes the -4 hurts, but it is also easy to make up for.
That being said it's the number of feats involved that really makes it hurt to me.
Oof. Makes the fire giant I was looking at earlier a DC 32 with a +11. Skill Focus (Perception) would give you a +17, but that's four feats to essentially recreate just tumbling around to flank.
As stated above be myself and others Shatter Defenses is not great by yourself for the most part. But the thing that is great is that it works off of three conditions.
So if you plan the party around this there are various ways they can work together to set it up. Barbarian rage powers, spells, bard songs, and a few other things can work to both give everyone in the party the "be-buff" to the bad guys and the rogue with Shatter Defenses just get's the sneak attack for free as a bonus.
A fighter 8~9/rogue 11~12 with this feat tree, spring attack, vital strike, and all the bleed feats and talents and a big weapon could be interesting as well but would really not start to pick up until very late in the level path.
As stated above be myself and others Shatter Defenses is not great by yourself for the most part. But the thing that is great is that it works off of three conditions.
So if you plan the party around this there are various ways they can work together to set it up. Barbarian rage powers, spells, bard songs, and a few other things can work to both give everyone in the party the "be-buff" to the bad guys and the rogue with Shatter Defenses just get's the sneak attack for free as a bonus.
This is quite true, and well worth mentioning.
I submit as a counterpoint, however, that whoever uses a rage power, spell, song, or other thing, to make the rogue's target Shaken has to give up doing something that might have been more effective. For example, a wizard could disintegrate one enemy, and the rogue could move into flanking and sneak attack one enemny - or that wizard could make one enemy shaken and the rogue could sneak attack him (if he has to move to him, he would only get one sneak attack and the wizard would have, effectively, done nothing this round).
I'm not saying it doesn't work, or that it's a bad idea.
What I am saying is that there is give-and-take here. The take is that a coordinated party can make their rogue super deadly. The give is that other party members give up useful actions or abilities to do it, and the rogue gave up the possibility of taking different feats.
Is that worth it? Maybe.
But I think it still falls short of "must have".
It works in town, but for most adventures it is not helpful. Any armed opponent is not flat footed. And almost every encounter is going to have enemies with either weapons or natural attacks.
I'd say that shatter defenses is a great option for melee bards who have gotten dirge of doom. Having access to a no-save shaken effect to all enemies within 30 feet as a move action, and later a swift action, makes the feat a no-brainer. Dazzling display is also put to good use, as bards are arguably the best candidates for mass intimidation and debuffing. Weapon focus isn't even wasted, since bards have a short list of decent weapons to use.
All in all, I'd vote that this is a bard feat.
Interesting for a rogue because opponents' flat-footedness is interesting to them.
Also interesting for a monk because flat-footedness triggers Medusa's Wrath. Put in Cornugon Smash for extra sweetness.
Turn 1:
Power Attack, Flurry of Blows
On each hit, Cornugon Smash
If target properly intimidated, Shatter Defenses triggers Medusa's Wrath for two additional attacks
Let's not forget that fear conditions stack, too
End of turn: the enemy is banged up pretty badly, and cowering in the corner
Okay, it's situational. Alright, it uses several feats to work (and at least monk level 10 to take MW without its prereq). Still interesting, though.
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Hi, people of 2010! Why didn't you see the options from the future?
We had a party with a rouge and a barbarian, they both took shatter defenses and the barbarian took cornugon smash to get free intimidate checks. Long story short, faces were wrecked.
Intimidation in combat is absolutely awesome, and it synergizes well with Cruel weapon enchants (causes Sickened condition vs. shaken/frightened/panicked/feared targets).
Blade of Mercy (Trait) or Bludgeoner (Feat) / Enforcer (Feat)
or
Power Attack (Feat) / Cornugon Smash (Feat) / Dazzling Display (Feat) / Shatter Defenses (Feat)
with
Cruel Weapon enchant (+1)
=
Shaken/Sickened targets have a -4 to attack, skill checks, ability checks and saves and a -2 to damage rolls.
If you are in a party with someone doing dazzling display/shatter defenses and you have a Cruel Weapon enchant... may the gods have mercy upon thine enemies.
Power Attack + Cornugon Smash + Great Cleave = AoE Intimidate/Sicken
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I just want to add that shatter defences should always be part of a bigger build. My swashbuckler/rogue at lvl 10 makes the enemy paniked with +35 on intimidating.
Also shatter defences is only truly great when you can intimidate as a free or swift (swashbuckler,rake rogue; enforcer and gurgonsmash) or intimidate 3+ people with dazzling display.
On all of this, what is everyone's opinion on Canny Tumble?