There are at least as many posts in this thread purporting to explain what "what progressives believe" by non-progressives than there are by progressives. Make of that what you will.
And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?
Or they are just victims of evil rich people, and it's not their fault at all. ;)
And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?
Like it or not, the above line of thought is very closely associated with Progressives AND Liberals by many in this coutry.
Wow did you just tell me that I paid no federal income tax, or that I got back more than I paid in? because I have pay stubs and tax forms that prove you are wrong. So tell me again what I did or didn't do?Poor people are too stupid to comprehend programs that would allow them to take advantage of rebates, so we need to make it easier on them? Wow... Not to mention that when the section of the poor population that is smart enough to do so files their taxes properly, they generally get MORE money back than they paid in, so any increase in tax (even if it is offset to a certain degree--i'm assuming a break even point) will cause them to lose money.oh okay, so I must be one of those stupid poor, because despite the fact that I've had to live off of ramen noodles and even then went days without eating (other than family who were nice enough to give me money to buy groceries)because I had rent to pay, I never once got more back for my taxes than I put in. And hey, I filed online using all those government tools to make it possible to get the best rebate possible. Hmm, I guess the government was just out to get me.FIFTY PERCENT of this country pays nothing in Federal Income tax, half. 46% of those 50% get money than $250 back. So, just to summarize.
You didn't pay anything in federal income taxes.
You got a refund for more than you paid in, meaning you had a net gain in taxes.Conclusion: You recieved welfare.
I think Brad meant to reply to X rather than you.
Like it or not, the above line of thought is very closely associated with Progressives AND Liberals by many in this coutry.And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?
+1, but I wouldn't limit it to that. I would include the vice side that tends to be associated with the right too.
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I think Brad meant to reply to X rather than you.Wow did you just tell me that I paid no federal income tax, or that I got back more than I paid in? because I have pay stubs and tax forms that prove you are wrong. So tell me again what I did or didn't do?Poor people are too stupid to comprehend programs that would allow them to take advantage of rebates, so we need to make it easier on them? Wow... Not to mention that when the section of the poor population that is smart enough to do so files their taxes properly, they generally get MORE money back than they paid in, so any increase in tax (even if it is offset to a certain degree--i'm assuming a break even point) will cause them to lose money.oh okay, so I must be one of those stupid poor, because despite the fact that I've had to live off of ramen noodles and even then went days without eating (other than family who were nice enough to give me money to buy groceries)because I had rent to pay, I never once got more back for my taxes than I put in. And hey, I filed online using all those government tools to make it possible to get the best rebate possible. Hmm, I guess the government was just out to get me.FIFTY PERCENT of this country pays nothing in Federal Income tax, half. 46% of those 50% get money than $250 back. So, just to summarize.
You didn't pay anything in federal income taxes.
You got a refund for more than you paid in, meaning you had a net gain in taxes.Conclusion: You recieved welfare.
Well in that case, I'm pissed. I've received help before, I'm not going to lie...my wife was on WIC while she was pregnant and I even got food stamps when I was first starting my family (let the record show I was working full-time the entire time), but to say I receive welfare just because I get a tax refund is a dick move.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?
I don't know how, but for some reason my brain thought "statism" was actually "satanism" and I thought, "huh, I don't quite get how that leads to satanism, but I'm glad to see godwin technology is improving."
So, I've concluded that calling your opponent a nazi just doesn't have the same bite anymore. From now on, if you disagree with me, that makes you a satanist.
Just an FYI.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I hear they make excellent skeet. Can we shoot them with our boom stick?Can we use a less pejorative term than "stupid poor"? I prefer "unwashed masses," but I can also live with "primitive screwheads."
I suppose, but only so long as it doesn't degrade the quality of the soylent green we would make from them after the fact...
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And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?I don't know how, but for some reason my brain thought "statism" was actually "satanism" and I thought, "huh, I don't quite get how that leads to satanism, but I'm glad to see godwin technology is improving."
So, I've concluded that calling your opponent a nazi just doesn't have the same bite anymore. From now on, if you disagree with me, that makes you a satanist.
Just an FYI.
The problem then comes that what if he actually is a satanist, then you're just complimenting him.
There are at least as many posts in this thread purporting to explain what "what progressives believe" by non-progressives than there are by progressives. Make of that what you will.Kinda like the "What Conservatives Believe" thread? But in reverse? Make of that what you will.
How did I know that post was coming? I could have typed it for you verbatim. Lol.
But yeah...exactly like that. What's your point? Two wrongs? An eye for an eye?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The problem then comes that what if he actually is a satanist, then you're just complimenting him.And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?I don't know how, but for some reason my brain thought "statism" was actually "satanism" and I thought, "huh, I don't quite get how that leads to satanism, but I'm glad to see godwin technology is improving."
So, I've concluded that calling your opponent a nazi just doesn't have the same bite anymore. From now on, if you disagree with me, that makes you a satanist.
Just an FYI.
Aw crap. And we are on a D&D board after all. Half of you are satanists, right?
Also, when am I finally going to get to learn to cast spells for real?
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Fixed that for you.I'll come and say it...I can afford to pay more. In fact, I'd be happy to pay more, at least for several years, if:
1. Spending is sharply curtailed
2. The extra reveneue is used to pay down the national debtUnfortunately, I just don't see either of those things happening. Instead, the realistic choice seems to be:
Vote Democractic -> Crappy fiscal policy,now with 100% more language police, food police, how-to-raise-your-kids police, penguin....
Vote Republican -> Crappy fiscal policy, now with 100% more morality police!
Both suck, but the first one sucks (a little) less.
Oh sure, trot out the old penguin-policy debate again. You'll be wishing you voted democrat when the little f!%~ers launch their attack and the country is defenseless...Fixed that for you.I'll come and say it...I can afford to pay more. In fact, I'd be happy to pay more, at least for several years, if:
1. Spending is sharply curtailed
2. The extra reveneue is used to pay down the national debtUnfortunately, I just don't see either of those things happening. Instead, the realistic choice seems to be:
Vote Democractic -> Crappy fiscal policy,now with 100% more language police, food police, how-to-raise-your-kids police, penguin....
Vote Republican -> Crappy fiscal policy, now with 100% more morality police!
Both suck, but the first one sucks (a little) less.
Does it help your case if you copy someone else's quote twice?
Oh sure, trot out the old penguin-policy debate again. You'll be wishing you voted democrat when the little f~%&ers launch their attack and the country is defenseless...
Oh sure, trot out the old penguin-policy debate again. You'll be wishing you voted democrat when the little f~%&ers launch their attack and the country is defenseless...
Come on. Everyone knows that Democrats are behind global warming. Penguins are just the proof.
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There are at least as many posts in this thread purporting to explain what "what progressives believe" by non-progressives than there are by progressives. Make of that what you will.Kinda like the "What Conservatives Believe" thread? But in reverse? Make of that what you will.How did I know that post was coming? I could have typed it for you verbatim. Lol.
But yeah...exactly like that. What's your point? Two wrongs? An eye for an eye?
VENGEANCE!
source for that claim on #1?
Source for the claim that the sky is sometimes blue? New York residency back when I was a smoker would be personal anecdote and hence without value, so if you want links, try some of these:
calling your opponent a nazi
Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long.
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source for that claim on #1?Source for the claim that the sky is sometimes blue? New York residency back when I was a smoker would be personal anecdote and hence without value, so if you want links, try some of these:
Cigarette Taxes, Black Markets, and Crime: Lessons from New York’s 50-Year Losing Battle
Big Tobacco's New York Black Market
The Unsmokables: Higher Cigarette Taxes Mean More Bootlegging.
Etc. A nanosecond or so Googling pops up 207,000 results, if you don't like any of those.
I wasn't arguing that there wasn't a lot of bootlegging going on, it was your claim that most of the cigarettes are bootlegged that I was asking for a source on. Even the links you gave the highest I saw was 25% of one companies sales in the state were bootlegged. I wasn't doubting the existence of a blackmarket for them, just that it was MOST of the cigarette sales, and I haven't seen proof of that yet either but I haven't read them all in their entirety yet, I will peruse more when I have time.
They then cut him loose and write off the debt. This is how it is done in practice.
Recently, I was late paying a $5 difference that insurance didn't cover. The next week, a collection agency was knocking at my door. I am not making this up. A lot of providers don't write it off -- so making a blanket statement that they all do is false, even if SOME do.
Why...
I believe the children are our are future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone to fulfill my needs
A lonely place to be
So I learned to depend on me
I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all
I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
And if by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love
First off, the hospital DOES tell him that. They then send him to the financial aid department and get the medicaid docs filled out. They then cut him loose and write off the debt. This is how it is done in practice. A business, whether it is a hospital or otherwise cannot afford to spend money on a debt they simply will never collect.
I don't think anyone on the "wealthy" side is saying they want to pay less taxes, it is that they want the poor/middle class to have skin in the game. More importantly they don't want to keep seeing large numbers of poor people voting and demanding things that they don't have to pay for.
Look around. This administration is doing nothing but trying to take wealth from the top 20% and give it to the bottom 40%. The middle 40% are just trying to stay out of it the best they can. The problem is when the top 20% feel like they are getting shafted they shut down the economy.
Ok, Mr. Galt. ;)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Interestingly, I view it as the root of economic Darwinism. The poor are just too dumb/lazy to ever amount to anything. They deserve what they get, so why empathize?And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?Good way to get people to listen to you, antagonize and act immature and generally unrealistic. If you want to roll that line of logic down the ole' hill then why not just cut off welfare/medicaid and see what happens to society?
There is a point where you have to help people out and while I agree we are past that point, you cannot generalize the fact that all those who are poor deserve it.
I think you may have failed a detect sarcasm check...
"I love my peasants! Pull!"I hear they make excellent skeet. Can we shoot them with our boom stick?Can we use a less pejorative term than "stupid poor"? I prefer "unwashed masses," but I can also live with "primitive screwheads."
MINARCHY AT WORK!!!!
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"you" is a hypothetical generalization, relax sport.Wow did you just tell me that I paid no federal income tax, or that I got back more than I paid in? because I have pay stubs and tax forms that prove you are wrong. So tell me again what I did or didn't do?Poor people are too stupid to comprehend programs that would allow them to take advantage of rebates, so we need to make it easier on them? Wow... Not to mention that when the section of the poor population that is smart enough to do so files their taxes properly, they generally get MORE money back than they paid in, so any increase in tax (even if it is offset to a certain degree--i'm assuming a break even point) will cause them to lose money.oh okay, so I must be one of those stupid poor, because despite the fact that I've had to live off of ramen noodles and even then went days without eating (other than family who were nice enough to give me money to buy groceries)because I had rent to pay, I never once got more back for my taxes than I put in. And hey, I filed online using all those government tools to make it possible to get the best rebate possible. Hmm, I guess the government was just out to get me.FIFTY PERCENT of this country pays nothing in Federal Income tax, half. 46% of those 50% get money than $250 back. So, just to summarize.
You didn't pay anything in federal income taxes.
You got a refund for more than you paid in, meaning you had a net gain in taxes.Conclusion: You recieved welfare.
okay, but remember if you quote someone and then say "you..." they'll think you're talking about them.
Interestingly, I view it as the root of economic Darwinism. The poor are just too dumb/lazy to ever amount to anything. They deserve what they get, so why empathize?And there's the root of statism. That the unwashed masses are just too dumb to run their own lives, and clearly they must be governed by their betters for their own good.Poor people are...stupid...Naturally...otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?Good way to get people to listen to you, antagonize and act immature and generally unrealistic. If you want to roll that line of logic down the ole' hill then why not just cut off welfare/medicaid and see what happens to society?
There is a point where you have to help people out and while I agree we are past that point, you cannot generalize the fact that all those who are poor deserve it.
Sarcasm -- look into it. ;)
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They then cut him loose and write off the debt. This is how it is done in practice.Recently, I was late paying a $5 difference that insurance didn't cover. The next week, a collection agency was knocking at my door. I am not making this up. A lot of providers don't write it off -- so making a blanket statement that they all do is false, even if SOME do.
+1 very rarely, if at all, do they simply write off debt. For one, how are they going to know whose debt to write off? I still get letters and an unpaid debt still shows up on my credit report over an "unpaid" ER visit that happend 7 years ago (I had insurance, they didn't file correctly and no amount of calling the hospital and the insurance co would get it resolved so I decided to stop wasting my time). Anecdotal? Yes. But you'd think that if a hospital was in the practice of writing off debt, they wouldn't wait 7 years to do so.
"you" is a hypothetical generalization, relax sport.okay, but remember if you quote someone and then say "you..." they'll think you're talking about them.
Crazy talk
I wasn't arguing that there wasn't a lot of bootlegging going on, it was your claim that most of the cigarettes are bootlegged that I was asking for a source on. Even the links you gave the highest I saw was 25% of one companies sales in the state were bootlegged.
Sort of hard to quantify the black market ones, since they're by definition not sold above-board. I didn't know anyone except college students who actually bought legitimate cigarettes. Everyone who drove to the South brought back a trunkful of smokes with them, and I often used to see whole truckloads being brought in.
They then cut him loose and write off the debt. This is how it is done in practice.Recently, I was late paying a $5 difference that insurance didn't cover. The next week, a collection agency was knocking at my door. I am not making this up. A lot of providers don't write it off -- so making a blanket statement that they all do is false, even if SOME do.Depends on your collectibility. If you were on medicaid/welfare I bet you wouldn't get that. That is my point. Those who are so poor as to be in the "welfare" category are not being harassed by collection agencies.
Can't get blood from a stone.
That's not true. My late mother in law still gets letters, and we recieved phone calls regarding her financial status before we changed our number(unrelated reason), and she was on medicaid and welfare in her final days due to cancer.
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I wasn't arguing that there wasn't a lot of bootlegging going on, it was your claim that most of the cigarettes are bootlegged that I was asking for a source on. Even the links you gave the highest I saw was 25% of one companies sales in the state were bootlegged. I wasn't doubting the existence of a blackmarket for them, just that it was MOST of the cigarette sales, and I haven't seen proof of that yet either but I haven't read them all in their entirety yet, I will peruse more when I have time.source for that claim on #1?Source for the claim that the sky is sometimes blue? New York residency back when I was a smoker would be personal anecdote and hence without value, so if you want links, try some of these:
Cigarette Taxes, Black Markets, and Crime: Lessons from New York’s 50-Year Losing Battle
Big Tobacco's New York Black Market
The Unsmokables: Higher Cigarette Taxes Mean More Bootlegging.
Etc. A nanosecond or so Googling pops up 207,000 results, if you don't like any of those.
Largest claim I've come across is 1 out of 3 cigarrettes is bootlegged, that's a lot, but that doesn't qualify as "most"
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That's not true. My late mother in law still gets letters, and we recieved phone calls regarding her financial status before we changed our number(unrelated reason), and she was on medicaid and welfare in her final days due to cancer.They then cut him loose and write off the debt. This is how it is done in practice.Recently, I was late paying a $5 difference that insurance didn't cover. The next week, a collection agency was knocking at my door. I am not making this up. A lot of providers don't write it off -- so making a blanket statement that they all do is false, even if SOME do.Depends on your collectibility. If you were on medicaid/welfare I bet you wouldn't get that. That is my point. Those who are so poor as to be in the "welfare" category are not being harassed by collection agencies.
Can't get blood from a stone.
I have a similar anecdotal experience relating to a family member and bill collectors (including hospitals and the state, which was after child support even though the person had been unemployed for the better part of a decade).
Largest claim I've come across is 1 out of 3 cigarrettes is bootlegged, that's a lot, but that doesn't qualify as "most"
Please read my reply before you ask again. 1 out of 3 is the ones that can get counted. How do you count the billions of packs trucked up illegally from Carolina and sold below the radar?
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Largest claim I've come across is 1 out of 3 cigarrettes is bootlegged, that's a lot, but that doesn't qualify as "most"Please read my reply before you ask again. 1 out of 3 is the ones that can get counted. How do you count the billions of packs trucked up illegally from Carolina and sold below the radar?
Your post came in while I was typing, it didn't exist when I started typing that post.
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There are at least as many posts in this thread purporting to explain what "what progressives believe" by non-progressives than there are by progressives. Make of that what you will.Kinda like the "What Conservatives Believe" thread? But in reverse? Make of that what you will.How did I know that post was coming? I could have typed it for you verbatim. Lol.
But yeah...exactly like that. What's your point? Two wrongs? An eye for an eye?
More like, good for the goose, tit for tat. If you don't like it now, shouldn't have done it then.
That's not true. My late mother in law still gets letters, and we recieved phone calls regarding her financial status before we changed our number(unrelated reason), and she was on medicaid and welfare in her final days due to cancer.They then cut him loose and write off the debt. This is how it is done in practice.Recently, I was late paying a $5 difference that insurance didn't cover. The next week, a collection agency was knocking at my door. I am not making this up. A lot of providers don't write it off -- so making a blanket statement that they all do is false, even if SOME do.Depends on your collectibility. If you were on medicaid/welfare I bet you wouldn't get that. That is my point. Those who are so poor as to be in the "welfare" category are not being harassed by collection agencies.
Can't get blood from a stone.
I think some of the disconnect here comes from the source of the debt. For instance a $500 lab bill may get "written off" by being sold to a collections agency at a fraction of it's value depending on the state. In some states that collection agency may then resell the same debt when they can't collect and so on. The lab writes the difference off and may get some other compensation from the state.
A $50,000 hospital bill, on the other hand, in Colorado gets written off relatively quickly. In the past someone would have to declare bankruptcy, and I have seen first hand hospitals literally beg people to declare bankruptcy and not even try to pay the bill.
This was more than 10 years ago, so I'm sure there have been some changes, but I gather it still runs like this.
I know after my wife died we spent months sorting out the various lab, supply, and home hospice bills. The hospital and hospice bills were the easiest to resolve with the insurance company. The labs and such were pretty inconsistent. Some waited months to bill us for co-pays.
I hope that helps.
On second thought, BT, if you still want to engage me, start another thread. I have a 7 year old at home who has better manners than this thread.
On second thought, BT, if you still want to engage me, start another thread. I have a 7 year old at home who has better manners than this thread.
Do we need a what do minarchists believe thread? ;)
I just had a mental image of Harsk astride a harley, shooting kobolds like skeet. LOL"I love my peasants! Pull!"I hear they make excellent skeet. Can we shoot them with our boom stick?Can we use a less pejorative term than "stupid poor"? I prefer "unwashed masses," but I can also live with "primitive screwheads."
Well there are worse mental images to deal with. :)
More like, good for the goose, tit for tat. If you don't like it now, shouldn't have done it then.
That wouldn't pass muster if my 11-year old said it.
Even so, did I "do it then?" I don't recall coming into the thread and out of the blue and restating people's positions in a "clever," mocking way. Maybe I did -- can you dig up an example? If so, I'd be happy to apologize -- would you?
Edit: Forget it. It may have taken me a while, but I've finally learned that talking to you is exactly as useful as a bucket of steaming hamster vomit.