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2) I have some pretty powerful nostalgia for the "Oriental Adventures" book from 1st edition D&D. It was a pretty significant and groundbreaking book to come out for RPGs back in the day.
I still think of 1st Ed's Oriental Adventures as the most 'beautifully written' of that editions hard cover rulebooks.
I am getting a bit tired of the Asian love fest.
No one invited me to the Asian love fest !
:(
We can use the same classes to cover every single culture anywhere but an Asian one? Really? Every other fighting culture on earth can be cover with the fighter but an Asian one can not?
Nevermind every fighting culture (on Earth or the Golarion equivalent) but in the very planes themselves.
Balor with Fighter levels; check.
Marlith with Rogue levels; check.
But on the other side of the coin:
Pit Fiend with Samurai and Ninja levels; check, check and shuuuweet!! ;)
I for one would not mind seeing Pathfinder's take on Samurai, on Spirit Folk, on the Yakuza, on Sumo wrestling, on Oni, on different martial arts styles, on the Manangal, or the Kapre, or Eastern Faiths, on Eastern philosophies, what 'masterwork' means in an Asian setting (it better not just be a +1 to hit is all I'm saying !) etc, etc ... you get the idea.
There were alternative classes in the game since 1st Eds Unearthed Arcana (even prior to that in OD&D where Druids and Rangers were among the non core classes), and those classes were taken in new directions with Oriental Adventures, so there is some well loved and respected pedigree to an Oriental flavored (and crunch) book.
It is unfortunate, but we do live in interseting times.
... what 'masterwork' means in an Asian setting (it better not just be a +1 to hit is all I'm saying !) ...
m(
This is exactly what I'm talking about...
Because ninjas are awesome. :)
+1
Hai-ya! Heh, the tourists love this stuff...
What I like about the concept for Jade Regent is that the travel to the "Far East" is part of the AP. I´m especially looking forward to the part in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.
@Zaister: It´s quite silly to criticize the inclusion of asian culture in a fantasy world. Golarion was and will always be a "best of" of all the cultures and eras in human history mixed with folklore and some strange ideas by the authors. If you don´t like that style, why do you play in Golarion at all?
@Zaister: It´s quite silly to criticize the inclusion of asian culture in a fantasy world. Golarion was and will always be a "best of" of all the cultures and eras in human history mixed with folklore and some strange ideas by the authors. If you don´t like that style, why do you play in Golarion at all?
I don't mind it being included, I just have no desire to play there, as to me it is a genre I'm not interested it, same as I don't very much like watching movies of that genre. I wouldn't like, however, if it got preferential treatment to other cultures in the way of mechnics, seemingly just to please the fanboys.
I play in Golarion because I like the Inner Sea region, and because I like the adventures Paizo produces.
I see no reason for name-calling here, and I object to being called silly for my opinion.
I agree with Zaister. A zweihander-wielding full plate juggernaut, a light and airy acrobatic duelist, a Mwangi master of of the sling spear and a katana and wakizashi dual-wielding brute of a samurai all sound like fighters to me; why can't a samurai just be a fighter? Why do they need their own class?
It just feels silly and elitist to claim a ninja is so fundamentally different to a rogue that they cannot be the same class. So, a hashashin warrior cannot be a rogue, a secret intelligence agent is not a rogue, a master sniper is not a rogue, a peerless locksmith is not a rogue... gotta wait for the Peerless Locksmith to come out in the APGIII before I can stat up this part-time thief.
It's unnecessary.
But the AP sounds nice. I can't wait to see what weird stuff's at the Crown of the World. After WFRP, I just imagine the artic is like the chaos wastes, no matter what universe I'm in.
Once I see the Archetypes in the APG, it will give me a better idea of how they work, but that is pretty much how I expect Paizo to handle Asian classes. Why recreate the classes when you can accomplish the same thing by swapping out abilities to get the same effect. On top of the fact they have also said that they are going to try to not do a lot of base classes as we go forward.
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I'd like to see a Pathfinder Oriental Adventures. Am I an Asian Fanboy ?
I don't think so, I have a short list of Animes I like, a really short list of Asian Movies, but with a list of almost 400 DVDs to chose from, those aren't to much.
I like new base classes for different cultures (or call them class variants if you like, though if they get other abilities every 2 or three levels, why not call them base classes?)
I sure would like to see an "African Adventures" or an "Arabian Adventures" for Pathfinder, but I'm sure they wouldn't sell as well as OA - so we aren't likely to get them.
As for Power Creep: Power Creep happens if you try to outdo formerly published classes with newer ones to get "Powergamers" (not trying to insult anybody, just see no better word for it) to buy the new class books even if they never play an "oriental" (or african, or draconian or flumphian)campaign. If Paizo doesn't do that, new base classes =|= power creep.
many asian fantasy fanboys demand extra rules because they seem to think that asian character types are so much cooler than everything else and deserve "better" classes, i.e. a Samurai can't be a fighter because a samurai is "obviously superior", or a katana can't just be a masterwork bastard sword, because, certainly a katana is much better than that.
I hope Paizo can avoid this.
+1. Also, please avoid the wuxia trap. Asian themed fantasy - good stuff. Default power level of Crouching Tiger - Hidden Dragon? NO THANKS. Katana MUST be the ultimate sword? NO THANKS. Ninjas MUST be better at stealth than rogues and better at combat than monks/fighters? NO THANKS.
I'm not saying Paizo would go down that road. However, it's also an easy trap to fall into.
In other words, I disagree that we don't need rules for ninjas, samurais, geishas, and whatnot. And that's only touching upon rules elements for Minkai! There's a LOT of other nations in Tian Xia, each of which deserve their own info.
Exactly how we present rules for samurai and ninjas and geishas and the like, though... that's something we're still figuring out. I can say this though; the goal will NOT be to create "better" classes of niches that are already provided, but to create options that are basically Asian versions of things.
And because I, as a gamer, want to see a book with lots of crunch and flavor for Asia stuff, there's a pretty good chance that'll happen.
I'm having trouble reconcilling this view with the blogs about the APG and the desire to avoid class bloat and keep the number of core classes to a minimum.
I'm all for culture-themed crunch (down to culture-based equipment lists for example), but wouldn't a better approach be to utilize APG-style class options where possible rather than develop new classes? Or has that design philosophy changed within the Paizo ranks?
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I recall back in 1st Edition when a new base class would appear in the pages of Dragon magazine, but instead of balancing it with the core classes, they'd power it up and label it an "NPC" class. I remember even back then screaming "why?" Surely all base classes should be relatively balanced with each other. If you want a challenging encounter, you don't build a more powerful base class, you simply level the NPC up instead, that is what the level structure is there for!
I would hope that Paizo have demonstrated with the Pathfinder RPG and Advanced Players Guide base classes that they're capable of building interesting and balanced classes. I don't think we need fear samurai or ninjas overshadowing our fighters or rogues any more than paladins or alchemists do now.
And for the record, weren't WotC's 3rd Edition samurai and ninja classes largely abandoned by players because they were deemed to be under-powered? So I'm not sure where this fear of uber-samurai/ninjas is coming from?
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I do think samurai, ninja and other classes can be built using APG-style archetypes, and it wouldn't be a bad option. Whether or not Paizo introduce new oriental classes, they'll probably offer APG-style archetypes as an option for those who prefer them.
However, it's rather imperialistic thinking to presume western archetypes such as alchemist, barbarian, cavalier, paladin, summoner, witch are deserving of base classes, but their eastern counterparts, courtier, ninja, samurai, shukenja, sohei do not.
I dislike prestige classes for similar reasons - you have to advance several levels as something else before you achieve your namesake. Oriental classes should stand alongside their european counterparts, not hang dependent off them.
Other cultures not having their own culture-specific classes is an excuse, not a reason, and shouldn't prevent oriental base classes. Al-Qadim had it's own classes, the Sha'ir being a favourite, and Nyambe is a great sourcebook for African cultures with it's own classes. In time, I'd like to see sourcebooks for other cultures explored further.
And for the record, weren't WotC's 3rd Edition samurai and ninja classes largely abandoned by players because they were deemed to be under-powered? So I'm not sure where this fear of uber-samurai/ninjas is coming from?
I don't know. I never even really looked at them, and I know no-one who ever wanted to play them.
However, it's rather imperialistic thinking to presume western archetypes such as alchemist, barbarian, cavalier, paladin, summoner, witch are deserving of base classes, but their eastern counterparts, courtier, ninja, samurai, shukenja, sohei do not.
Please tell me why a samurai character can't just be a fighter?
If a samurai can do cool things that make a fighter of the same level drop his jaw and wonder How did he do that...?, then the fighter ought similarly to be able to do things that make the samurai wonder the same thing. Same goes for the ninja and the rogue. Otherwise, the Asian classes are demonstrably "better" than anything the European/African/Norse/Arabian/etc. cultures (not to mention the Planes) can dish out.
If a particular area needs all new classes to depict it, then to me it feels like a different game or a whole new setting.
Paizo has earned my trust thus far, but I don't want to be mobbed down the road by players wanting to play Varisian samurai and Chelish ninjas because fighters and rogues are comparatively lame.
I recently spoke to a samurai fanboy and his idea of a samurai base class was this: It's "like the fighter" but with d12 hit dice ("he is the ultimate warrior") and at least a second good save ("willpower!"). Of course he gets Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (wakizashi) for free, and his katana and wakizashi are equal to a +1 keen longsword doing 1d12 damage and a +1 keen short sword doing 1d8 damage, of course only when wielded by the samurai himself, for others they would just be normal masterwork swords. And the samurai would of course get them for free at his initiation.
And of course he is absolutely serious about this. When confronted with the obvious balance problem, he just says, "of course it's better than the fighter, it's supposed to be!"
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I don't get it. Why is everybody(?) so eager for this pseudo-asian stuff?Lots of reasons, and those reasons change for every gamer. For me, I'm eager to explore it because:
2) I have some pretty powerful nostalgia for the "Oriental Adventures" book from 1st edition D&D. It was a pretty significant and groundbreaking book to come out for RPGs back in the day.
I agree with all James' reasons and look forward to this when it happens.
I have to agree even MORE with the pretty powerful nostalgia for the "Oriental Adventures" book from 1st edition D&D. That was such a great book! My gaming group loved it - probably one of the coolest AD&D campaigns we ever played was all Oriental Adventures.
Man, I still remember my Monkey Hengyoki character ... and that funny Wizard of Oz moment ...
Good times
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... what 'masterwork' means in an Asian setting (it better not just be a +1 to hit is all I'm saying !) ...m(
This is exactly what I'm talking about...
+1 to this. The 'just' means it's expected that an Asian themed masterwork quality is somehow inherently better than any other.
I support Paizo putting out a Tian Xia book, and I strongly support taking the direction of new class features providing a different flavor for the same classes.
Here's another vote for not going hog wild with "Asian" classes. I don't think you need a lot of new rules to represent these cultures, fighting styles, etc. I would be more interested in seeing flavorful regional traits/traits and class-specific customizations of the sort that seem to be coming with the APG.
Not sure why people are happy to let the Barbarian class fit both a "European" pit fighter and longboat raider but think that Fighter can't represent Samurai and Rogues can't represent Ninja. Then again, I'm also not sure why people demand a higher degree of fidelity to real-world Asian cultures in "Asian-inspired" fantasy cultures than they do with "European-inspired" fantasy cultures (just see that bloody awful Minkai name thread reffed upthread if you need an example).
M
Why ranger ? Why paladin ? Why barbarian ? Hey, let's ditch rogues, they're just fighters with extra skill points.
Please tell me why a samurai character can't just be a fighter?
Exactly
I love new base classes
CEO
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In other words, I disagree that we don't need rules for ninjas, samurais, geishas, and whatnot. And that's only touching upon rules elements for Minkai! There's a LOT of other nations in Tian Xia, each of which deserve their own info.
Exactly how we present rules for samurai and ninjas and geishas and the like, though... that's something we're still figuring out. I can say this though; the goal will NOT be to create "better" classes of niches that are already provided, but to create options that are basically Asian versions of things.
And because I, as a gamer, want to see a book with lots of crunch and flavor for Asia stuff, there's a pretty good chance that'll happen.
I'm having trouble reconcilling this view with the blogs about the APG and the desire to avoid class bloat and keep the number of core classes to a minimum.
I'm all for culture-themed crunch (down to culture-based equipment lists for example), but wouldn't a better approach be to utilize APG-style class options where possible rather than develop new classes? Or has that design philosophy changed within the Paizo ranks?
I don't see anything in James' post where he talks about more core classes. He is just talking about rules elements and crunch. As many posters in this thread have mentioned, there are other ways to provide this information for play without adding core classes. Have faith! :)
-Lisa
We are replete with faithyness. Some of us are, anyway...
M
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I don't see anything in James' post where he talks about more core classes. He is just talking about rules elements and crunch. As many posters in this thread have mentioned, there are other ways to provide this information for play without adding core classes. Have faith! :)
-Lisa
Yep. I see this eventual book having more variant core classes (or even base classes) with appropriate setting based abilities swapped out instead of all new classes.
A Samuarai is a variant Fighter with more skill points, different class skills and some different class abilities for instance.
I have faith
These class options will be great each of the differnt cultures, will have their own varient classes that go along with them. And this would be freakin great.
I think Paizo will keep the core classes to a Minimum as they have been saying for a while
Something like this is what I would like to see
Alternate Fighter class feature: Samurai
Alignment must be Lawful (Good, Neutral, or Evil)
Ancestoral Daisho: Instead of recieveing a Fighter bonus feat at first level gain the Heirloom Weapon trait for both a Katana and Wakazashi. These are bonus traits and does not count towards the traits your character recieves.
Strength of the Ancestors: Any time after 1st level when you are awarded a fighter bonus feat instead of the feat you may choose to enchant a weapon from your ancestoral daisho with a +1 enchantment bonus. The weapon bonus is allowable at +1 per four fighter levels minimum of +1. An item enchanted through this method may not be enchanted by any other means.
Ex-Samurais: If at any point your alignment becomes non-lawful you lose the benefits of the Ancestoral Daisho and Strength of the Ancestors class abilities.
Edited:Because I reread and edit like 7 times for clarification.
ya guys know most Samurai used bows and polearms more often the sword right? If paizo is going this route I hope they do like they always do and drawl from history and not just hollywood fanboisum on the Samurai.
Another note..If the fighter didn't need 4 skill points {something I fought for } then it's clear the Samurai does not need them either as they are just fighters with a self imposed code.
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Creative Director
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Guys...
We haven't even officially announced that Jade Regent is even HAPPENING after "Carrion Crown." There's a LOT that can happen between now and then. Getting in arguments about things that Paizo might not even ever do is kinda pointless.
Of course, the chances ARE good that we'll go ahead with Jade Regent and some sort of support material, be it articles in the adventure path, a huge hardcover book, a series of softcover supplements, or whatever. We haven't figured any of that out yet at all.
But when we DO figure it out, we're not going to weirdly transform into an entirely different group of designers and editors and developers. Put another way: If you think Paizo's done a good job handling Golarion and Pathfinder so far, there should be no reason to suspect we'll do something stupid or overpowered or out of character just because we're using words like "samurai" and "ninja" instead of "paladin" or "rogue."
I'm not ready to talk any more about what we've got planed for books that are, in a best case scenario, releasing over a year from now. Especially since what we DO have planned might tie in to other books we haven't even yet released yet.
So... deep breaths all around. Remain calm. There's nothing to see here. Not yet.
ALSO: This rampant speculation is pretty much the #1 reason we tightly control when we reveal adventure path titles and plots. It's hard to manage expectations and provide any sort of preview material when we don't have solid footing ourselves to talk about things. We ONLY JUST announced "Carrion Crown," and haven't even released the first Serpent's Skull yet. Give us some time. We'll get to what's coming next in a while. Probably in about six months.
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I just hope Jade Regent isn't going to be "Start in the Inner Sea and cross the crown of the world, eventually getting to the asian stuff in book 4 or so"
I want to dive right in.
Prepare for disappointment then. Because that's exactly the basic plotline for Jade Regent. There's a LOT more going on than just that, and there'll absolutely be Asian elements in all six adventures, but the plot is pretty much... ** spoiler omitted **
This way, we create all sorts of links between the Inner Sea and Tian Xia, and get to see not only how Inner Sea folks work in Tian Xia, but how Tian Xia folks work in the Inner Sea region.
This will be a bit disappointment as it'll discourage the creation of Tian characters, considering there's gonna be a fancy new book with all types of new Tian flavored crunch to explore it's a shame the players will have less opportunity to explore it.
In reply to the posts above me, certain classes do NOT fit into an asian setting. Paladin is not a good cover for the Samurai (although a few class feature changes to the Cavalier could probably cover it). The ninja could conceivably be done as a rogue PrC but would probably fit better as a core class as would Shugenja. Yamabushi and Sohei could easily be PrCs.
Ya know now that you said that a Cavalier would fit perfect for a Samurai as they were horsemen as well. The sword was the back up weapons back up weapon lol, they were mounted archers for the most part if I recall.
ALSO: This rampant speculation is pretty much the #1 reason we tightly control when we reveal adventure path titles and plots. It's hard to manage expectations and provide any sort of preview material when we don't have solid footing ourselves to talk about things. We ONLY JUST announced "Carrion Crown," and haven't even released the first Serpent's Skull yet. Give us some time. We'll get to what's coming next in a while. Probably in about six months.
James, if we didn't rampantly speculate we would give the internet a bad name. :)
To be honest I do trust you guys to do something cool and balanced with Tian Xia. And I look forward to what you guys come up with when/if it comes out. May I suggest open playtest? Now I will hide before Jason sees that.
ALSO: This rampant speculation is pretty much the #1 reason we tightly control when we reveal adventure path titles and plots. It's hard to manage expectations and provide any sort of preview material when we don't have solid footing ourselves to talk about things. We ONLY JUST announced "Carrion Crown," and haven't even released the first Serpent's Skull yet. Give us some time. We'll get to what's coming next in a while. Probably in about six months.
Sorry James... {looks around sheepishly} I'll behave.
Nyyyaaargh ! GIVE PREVUES !
All I have to say is that I'm looking forward to both Carrion Crown and Jade Regent, though mostly Carrion Crown. Of course, that's partially because I've wanted to run a game in Ustalav since I got the Campaign Setting, but that's beside the point to me.
In other words, I disagree that we don't need rules for ninjas, samurais, geishas, and whatnot. And that's only touching upon rules elements for Minkai! There's a LOT of other nations in Tian Xia, each of which deserve their own info.
Exactly how we present rules for samurai and ninjas and geishas and the like, though... that's something we're still figuring out. I can say this though; the goal will NOT be to create "better" classes of niches that are already provided, but to create options that are basically Asian versions of things.
And because I, as a gamer, want to see a book with lots of crunch and flavor for Asia stuff, there's a pretty good chance that'll happen.
I'm having trouble reconcilling this view with the blogs about the APG and the desire to avoid class bloat and keep the number of core classes to a minimum.
I'm all for culture-themed crunch (down to culture-based equipment lists for example), but wouldn't a better approach be to utilize APG-style class options where possible rather than develop new classes? Or has that design philosophy changed within the Paizo ranks?
I don't see anything in James' post where he talks about more core classes. He is just talking about rules elements and crunch. As many posters in this thread have mentioned, there are other ways to provide this information for play without adding core classes. Have faith! :)
-Lisa
Guess I mistook "rules for ninjas, etc." to mean additional core/base classes.
Checks lockbox labeled "Faith in Paizo". Yep, it's still tucked away snugly inside.
Thanks, everyone! As always, looking forward to what you've got coming next.
many asian fantasy fanboys demand extra rules because they seem to think that asian character types are so much cooler than everything else and deserve "better" classes, i.e. a Samurai can't be a fighter because a samurai is "obviously superior", or a katana can't just be a masterwork bastard sword, because, certainly a katana is much better than that.
I hope Paizo can avoid this.
+1. Also, please avoid the wuxia trap. Asian themed fantasy - good stuff. Default power level of Crouching Tiger - Hidden Dragon? NO THANKS. Katana MUST be the ultimate sword? NO THANKS. Ninjas MUST be better at stealth than rogues and better at combat than monks/fighters? NO THANKS.
I'm not saying Paizo would go down that road. However, it's also an easy trap to fall into.
Well, count me in with the people who'd LOVE a re-worked Monk ( or better yet, an alternative generic "Martial Artist" class ).
I've felt annoyed for a long time that every martial artist is supposed to be a.) Lawful Something and b.) get mystical supernatural powers. Gimme some non-mystical martial artists!
Of course the APG could well do that already, we'll see in a few weeks...
Guess I mistook "rules for ninjas, etc." to mean additional core/base classes.
I think with things like rogue talents it will be easier to modify the base classes like a new kit or variant. I suspect the APG will give us a good idea as to the many ways we can expand classes in new direction.
They already do this in a way with some of the regional feats in the Campaign Setting book (and other book in that line). I can see "Samurai" be a fighter-only feat that starts a chain.
So to continue with rampant speculations what do people think will be the first AP for 2012? I like the Worldwound idea.
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This will be a bit disappointment as it'll discourage the creation of Tian characters, considering there's gonna be a fancy new book with all types of new Tian flavored crunch to explore it's a shame the players will have less opportunity to explore it.
I actually think it might ENcourage creation of Tian Xia characters as they might prove to be excellent hooks into an adventure path that starts out in Avistan and ends up in Tian Xia.
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I'm all for some more OA crunch - the original 1E book still gives me a chill of nostalgia when I pull it off the shelf.
I miss the good ol' 1E martial arts - Kick 1 from Tae Kwan Do. Double damage if you hit, or lose an action if you miss. Or the Kensai 3/2 attack progression at level 4. Good times, look forward to a new trip down memory lane in 2011 if it comes to fruition.
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I recently spoke to a samurai fanboy and his idea of a samurai base class was this: It's "like the fighter" but with d12 hit dice ("he is the ultimate warrior") and at least a second good save ("willpower!"). Of course he gets Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (wakizashi) for free, and his katana and wakizashi are equal to a +1 keen longsword doing 1d12 damage and a +1 keen short sword doing 1d8 damage, of course only when wielded by the samurai himself, for others they would just be normal masterwork swords. And the samurai would of course get them for free at his initiation.
And of course he is absolutely serious about this. When confronted with the obvious balance problem, he just says, "of course it's better than the fighter, it's supposed to be!"
See, I don't see anyone else on this thread making these wild claims. I just think it's a good thing that Paizo are going to be publishing this line, and not the samurai player you spoke to.
As for namecalling, let's not use the term "fanboy". We're all players, GMs and customers here, even the samurai player you spoke to.
What we need is a ninja class with class ability: Awesome (Su).
It works like this: 1/day per ninja level, you are Awesome. No saves allowed against Awesome, except for Pirates, Valkyries with Jetpacks and Zombie Bobsled Teams.
I would be thrilled with an Oriental themed AP and setting book. So would my wife.
Any hope for some extra-Golarion adventures or info? Something involving space travel and a little sword and planet action would be wonderful.
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I would be thrilled with an Oriental themed AP and setting book. So would my wife.
Any hope for some extra-Golarion adventures or info? Something involving space travel and a little sword and planet action would be wonderful.
Sword and Planet may need to wait for Pathfinder Psionics. Castrovel should be fun.