Actually, its pretty well spelled out.
Crawling on all fours is considered "prone" too in PF. Which makes sense given a prone character being allowed to attack (even at -4). Flat on your back or facedown would be considerably worse than -4, imo.
PFRPG Core Rulebook (page 186): "Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers
who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity."
Bold being the pertinent part.
Name calling and passing judgments aside, you do know what they say about opinions and sphincters, right?
I offered an observation on the "realism" of a trip-lock. I don't beleive I was off the mark, nor did I engage in "name calling". Specialized builds built around specific manuevers are generally (but not always) attempts to take advantage of some percieved loophole in the RAW. Please tell me if this is not.
If you took offense from something in my post, it was unintended. I simply stated that, imo, the rules are more "realistic" in that they prevent this tactic from working.
How would a PC feel if the monster did this to him?I keep asking this, but I am not getting any takers.
I wouldn't mind at all.
A vampire can dominate me. A cleric can Hold Person me. I can be Fascinated, Stunned, Paralyzed, Petrified, Level Drained, Grappled, Entangled, Swallowed Whole, Blinded, Magic Jarred, Soul-trapped, Imprisoned... Jeepers, that's just the first handful of nastiness that I thought of in about the 20 seconds it took to type it - I'm sure there's scads more I didn't list.
Adding Trip-locked to that list really doesn't change much. 1,000 ways I can be wiped out, or 1,001 - it's really just about the same to me.
Heck, at least with a housruled trip-lock (you know, the kind you CAN'T do by RAW but yet some people seem to be worried about it anyway), I might get out of it, or just lay there and fight back with the penalties. I might even win. There's a lot of other badness out there that will either kill me outright or take me out of the fight instantly with no way for me to fight back, so Trip-lock seems pretty tame to me.
and I see it thus:
If the monster (BBEG/whatever) is standing overtop a big AC guy with massive HP (your average meatshield) focusing solely on keeping him tripped, he is NOT pummeling the bejeezus out of the rest of the party, he is not inflicting damage on the meatshield, he is not breathing fire or casting spells, he is keeping the meatshield down.
At that point, the party cleric is casting/healing/channeling, the rogue is sneak attacking/flanking/doing-roguey-things, the arcane caster is shooting for magic missiles/lightning bolts/waving wands/whatever, and...wait for it....NOONE is getting smited by the BBEG. The meatshield on the ground is also probably a full BAB guy, and he can afford the -4 to hit, so he can still attack from the ground.
If the BBEG/Monster is instead triplocking a weaker HP character, that leaves it open to attacks from the big fighter guy, the ranged bow guy, the caster guy, and the cleric even.
I hardly call this game breaking and certain TPK.
I was not talking about one monster TPKing a party with trip lock. I was talking about Team triplock. Of course one monster can't do it. It is not like he could cover an entire area alone.
How would a PC feel if the monster did this to him?I keep asking this, but I am not getting any takers.I wouldn't mind at all.
A vampire can dominate me. A cleric can Hold Person me. I can be Fascinated, Stunned, Paralyzed, Petrified, Level Drained, Grappled, Entangled, Swallowed Whole, Blinded, Magic Jarred, Soul-trapped, Imprisoned... Jeepers, that's just the first handful of nastiness that I thought of in about the 20 seconds it took to type it - I'm sure there's scads more I didn't list.
Adding Trip-locked to that list really doesn't change much. 1,000 ways I can be wiped out, or 1,001 - it's really just about the same to me.
Heck, at least with a housruled trip-lock (you know, the kind you CAN'T do by RAW but yet some people seem to be worried about it anyway), I might get out of it, or just lay there and fight back with the penalties. I might even win. There's a lot of other badness out there that will either kill me outright or take me out of the fight instantly with no way for me to fight back, so Trip-lock seems pretty tame to me.
Every way you named has a defense to stop it that is not hard to come by. Trip lock is the only mundane one that kills you without a way out. Even if you are stunned the duration is normally short, and you get a fort save to avoid that. Trip-lock give you nothing, just lay there and take it. Blinded is cured by a 2nd level spell. All the others have build in counters, but not trip lock.
I wish I could DM this tactic against your group for one session. Actually I think you should do it. It does not even have to be an entire session. Just 2 or 3 fights or just playtest it.
Again, hardly game breaking.
and again, not EVERY encounter is going to be this type. If it is, the DM whoever it is sucks, and the players should leave.
Also, reading various other threads, it seems that by lvl 10 or so most people expect their characters to be able to fly/levitate/hover or something...so by midway through level progression, most people wouldn't be able to be triplocked in the first place.
I dont think that most thing applies. Fly is not always on, and it is wholly that not everyone has it, and/or can get it activated in time.
Even if everyone did fly that does nothing for those that can't.
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Okay, finding this topic of interest I have done some reading and such and find some of the arguments confusing.
In reading about Attacks of Opportunity, where exactly does it say that the AoO precedes the action that initiates the attack? This argument says that the character is prone, starts to get up, but provokes before he starts to get up to the defender is already prone and can then continue its action. From what I saw in description of AoO it does not use this wording at all. Everything I have read says the AoO interrupts the action, and says nothing about PRECEDING the action. Please point in the right direction. :)
Regardless, a tripped character can always manage to stand up afterwards. It is just a matter of whether he gets to attack in addition. A tripped character can attempt to stand up, provoke the AoO and get retripped. He can then make another move action to stand up. The same character cannot trip the defender again. Regardless the defender is up. He may or may not loose his standard action, THAT is the question.
I apologize if this has already be asked and answered. So many posts in such a short time, no way I could follow it all.
Every way you named has a defense to stop it that is not hard to come by. Trip lock is the only mundane one that kills you without a way out. Even if you are stunned the duration is normally short, and you get a fort save to avoid that. Trip-lock give you nothing, just lay there and take it. Blinded is cured by a 2nd level spell. All the others have build in counters, but not trip lock.How would a PC feel if the monster did this to him?I keep asking this, but I am not getting any takers.I wouldn't mind at all.
A vampire can dominate me. A cleric can Hold Person me. I can be Fascinated, Stunned, Paralyzed, Petrified, Level Drained, Grappled, Entangled, Swallowed Whole, Blinded, Magic Jarred, Soul-trapped, Imprisoned... Jeepers, that's just the first handful of nastiness that I thought of in about the 20 seconds it took to type it - I'm sure there's scads more I didn't list.
Adding Trip-locked to that list really doesn't change much. 1,000 ways I can be wiped out, or 1,001 - it's really just about the same to me.
Heck, at least with a housruled trip-lock (you know, the kind you CAN'T do by RAW but yet some people seem to be worried about it anyway), I might get out of it, or just lay there and fight back with the penalties. I might even win. There's a lot of other badness out there that will either kill me outright or take me out of the fight instantly with no way for me to fight back, so Trip-lock seems pretty tame to me.
Without any way out?
Get a good CMD. Fly. Levitate. Sit on a horse. That's just the first few I can think of.
There are at least as many ways out of a trip-lock as there are out of Power Word Stun.
You get one chance, and one chance only, to survive a puny little Hold Person spell before the caster's ally nails you with the Coup de Grace. You can't even be Coup-de-Grace'd (I'm sure that must be a horribly incorrect usage) due to a trip-lock.
Okay, finding this topic of interest I have done some reading and such and find some of the arguments confusing.
In reading about Attacks of Opportunity, where exactly does it say that the AoO precedes the action that initiates the attack? This argument says that the character is prone, starts to get up, but provokes before he starts to get up to the defender is already prone and can then continue its action. From what I saw in description of AoO it does not use this wording at all. Everything I have read says the AoO interrupts the action, and says nothing about PRECEDING the action. Please point in the right direction. :)
Regardless, a tripped character can always manage to stand up afterwards. It is just a matter of whether he gets to attack in addition. A tripped character can attempt to stand up, provoke the AoO and get retripped. He can then make another move action to stand up. The same character cannot trip the defender again. Regardless the defender is up. He may or may not loose his standard action, THAT is the question.
I apologize if this has already be asked and answered. So many posts in such a short time, no way I could follow it all.
Krome if you are prone and you start to stand you provoke. You are then tripped, but since you are already prone your condition never changed, so you just continue standing.
Another way:
When you try to stand the action is not complete until you finish it. Since it is not complete when the trip takes place you are still prone. The trip attack does nothing substantial because your condition never changed so you just continue to stand. It is not a re-trip. Basically you are either up or down, and you were already down when the AoO took place, so sure you can trip someone but it wont matter.
Every way you named has a defense to stop it that is not hard to come by. Trip lock is the only mundane one that kills you without a way out. Even if you are stunned the duration is normally short, and you get a fort save to avoid that. Trip-lock give you nothing, just lay there and take it. Blinded is cured by a 2nd level spell. All the others have build in counters, but not trip lock.How would a PC feel if the monster did this to him?I keep asking this, but I am not getting any takers.I wouldn't mind at all.
A vampire can dominate me. A cleric can Hold Person me. I can be Fascinated, Stunned, Paralyzed, Petrified, Level Drained, Grappled, Entangled, Swallowed Whole, Blinded, Magic Jarred, Soul-trapped, Imprisoned... Jeepers, that's just the first handful of nastiness that I thought of in about the 20 seconds it took to type it - I'm sure there's scads more I didn't list.
Adding Trip-locked to that list really doesn't change much. 1,000 ways I can be wiped out, or 1,001 - it's really just about the same to me.
Heck, at least with a housruled trip-lock (you know, the kind you CAN'T do by RAW but yet some people seem to be worried about it anyway), I might get out of it, or just lay there and fight back with the penalties. I might even win. There's a lot of other badness out there that will either kill me outright or take me out of the fight instantly with no way for me to fight back, so Trip-lock seems pretty tame to me.
Without any way out?
Get a good CMD. Fly. Levitate. Sit on a horse. That's just the first few I can think of.
There are at least as many ways out of a trip-lock as there are out of Power Word Stun.
You get one chance, and one chance only, to survive a puny little Hold Person spell before the caster's ally nails you with the Coup de Grace. You can't even be Coup-de-Grace'd (I'm sure that must be a horribly incorrect usage) due to a trip-lock.
Sit on a horse really? People can't be knocked off horses?
The CMD thing has been discussed several times already. Fly and has also. How do you get out of trip lock as a PC. Not getting into one helps, but if I have to guard against one ability all the time, then its too good. A monster might get out due to SLA's or a ridiculous CMD, but only at higher levels if the PC is determined to keep it down. Well a PC might too, but its very unlikely.
We both pointed it out, and my post about being ninja'd really means it was pointed out 3 times. Do I have an "ignore me" script written into my profile somewhere. Maybe everyone on the board can see it except me, kind of like the "kick me" sign that gets taped to people's back.In most cases they can use another move action, crawl away and get up, attack anyway, etc.No, they can't, as my posts above pointed out.
Because you two didn't point out anything of the sort?
The tripped person can full attack from prone at -4. A -4 penalty is sad but a lot of stuff can give you a -4 penalty, that's life, it's certainly not a "lose" situation. You can do other non-melee stuff like cast spells and use items at no penalty. You seem to say "oh if you're tripped you get no actions..." That is completely untrue. You get all your normal actions. All of them. You can be deprived of them if you do nothing but try to stand up, but that's you being a doofus not the build being uber.
You can use a second move action to try to stand up again. IF they have Combat Reflexes and a high DEX they can attack you again and IF they succeed on the trip they can keep you down. It's only as "automatic" as any other opposed roll in combat where someone is a lot better than you.
You can use Acrobatics to move away without provoking an AoO.
You could have other party members or something.
If someone can beat your CMD every time, then you're in a bad spot, trip or no trip. They can keep you disarmed, or grappled, or overrun, or whatever with little recourse. Just like if their BAB is way higher than your AC they're going to hit you and damage you every round with little recourse.
To be a "trip monster," you need to get Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Greater Trip (requiring BAB +6), and need a high Dex and 13 Int. That's four feats and an unusual MAD. The Greater Trips take AoOs too, so you need a hellacious Dex if you are really going to keep multiple opponents down and hurt them; if they are insistent on getting up then you have to spend 2/round just to keep them down, and then optionally 2/round to hurt them, if your Dex is high enough you can spend 4 AoOs a round on multiple opponents then... Good for you, maybe you should be a trip monster, there are probably more harmful builds you could have.
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Agree to disagree then.
I don't see a trip locking character which requires multiple feats to do all that game breaking. Nor do I see a potential fight where the party has to fight a trip monkey monster as all that game breaking.
2 Feats are required to be able to lock down 1 opponent permanently as soon as you get a successful trip on them. You add combat reflexes and you are able to do it to up to 1+Dex mod (Which if you are building this, I cant see anyone having less than 14 dex for this purpose) meaning you could keep up to 4 opponents around you laying on their back by yourself with no investment of your resources during your turn.
A level 1 human fighter could get all 3 feats required to do this and pick up a scythe. So at level one he effectively takes one monster out of combat each round and from that point on they are unable to do anything effectively.
not paying attention
We did point it out.
Here it is again. ---> http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/tripLockingDoesntWorkOfficialRulingOrNot&page=3#144
So he crawls 5ft., provoking AoO, and stands. Tripper 5ft steps and full attacks, with the first attack being a trip. Tripper now gets a full attack on prone target, and target can do nothing but lay there and attack back at a -4.
All your other ideas have been handled earlier in the post also. I will check when I get back to see if you found them.
Tell me how each class can prevent being triplocked at any level. Triplock works at any level, by they way. No amount of feats should allow a broken build, and that is what triplock would be. By your logic PunPun would be ok.Not really. What people want is to be able to trip someone when they stand, making them prone again and wasting the move action the guy used to stand. Thus, the tripped person cannot stand up while threatened unless the tripper misses his trip attempt. At no action cost to the tripper, because they use their AoO and not their turn of actions.
If I have misrepresented the people in favor of tripping prone opponents, one of you please correct me.
This is exactly right, and its not "unfair". There are feats and means of defense to prevent being trip locked, and with the expenditure of multiple feats to achieve any success in keeping an opponent down on the ground, it seems a reasonable ability to have for the cost.
Or I could take the 3 feats and do things like extra damage (crits, vital strike) and such, but this is now not a viable build and those feats are pointless.
You still can't resist being trip-locked if there are two attackers.
Trip-locking is allowable by the RAW even with this ruling, it just requires a second character. Regardless of whether or not you like it, it can still be done.
The counterpoint of "You can't crawl away and get up because you're just going to get tripped again" isn't all that valid. You can still get tripped again the next turn anyway.
Trip locking leading to a TPK is a hideous over-reaction. CMD is very similar to a saving throw, and if you as a player don't look into ways to increase your CMD then you're kind getting what you deserve. Say I play a straight fighter and I don't increase my Will Save, and I get his with a death effect. I fail the save and OH MY GOD ITS UNFAIR!!!!!!
you can, as a player, get a Spell DC so high that most things will be unable to resist a death spell DC. How is trip locking more powerful then that?
Sit on a horse really? People can't be knocked off horses?
By strict reading of the rules, no they can't. There are no rules for knocking someone off of a horse. Now, realistically a trip attack against a rider, or maybe a bullrush with proper terrain available, could be ruled to do it... But that requires GM ruling, and that isn't promised anywhere in the rules.
not paying attentionWe did point it out.
Here it is again. ---> http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/tripLockingDoesntWorkOfficialRulingOrNot&page=3#144
So he crawls 5ft., provoking AoO, and stands. Tripper 5ft steps and full attacks, with the first attack being a trip. Tripper now gets a full attack on prone target, and target can do nothing but lay there and attack back at a -4.
All your other ideas have been handled earlier in the post also. I will check when I get back to see if you found them.
I see what you're saying, but the player still has plenty of combat options, and to say that particular situation is crippling is an over exaggeration of the situation.
And no one has responded to my second point, and probably the MORE IMPORTANT ONE. Please go take a look, as it's the order of precedence of actions that concerns me more then the ability to trip lock (which as I've said multiple times can STILL be done, it just requires a second tripper to ready actions).
Mechanically speaking it's still inferior to being paralyzed with a spell, put to sleep, turned to stone, killed, sent to another dimension, imprisoned, etc...
And anyone saying that "not being able to keep someone from getting up is REALISTIC!" is wrong. The vast majority of fights that go to the ground end there, as the person who loses their footing is QUICKLY victimized. I know that this being the internet many of you will dismiss this, but I'm active duty in the military and have had military hand to hand training... if a trained fighter reaps you, you're in trouble. If they don't follow you down your only option is to get away on the ground and try to stand.
Now this is a game, and I understand that realism is an afterthought (spells, dragons, et. all) and that we can't get hit with a sword and not die, but if we're going to have a rule that allows us to take someone down we should endeavor to use it in a logical manner.
@TriOmega - thanks for clarifying the "trip locking" crowd's concern/advantage/whatever. That is DEFINITELY not what I was looking at in the slightest (gods I'm HORRIFIED at that concept).
My concern was just about the RAW and entitlements of the feat investments that Greater Trip ==> AoO w/any successful trip attack.
As for the "locking" business, since only 1 AoO can be made on ANY given action, even *IF* you let a re-trip happen and force the downed target to use a second move action to stand up ... the tripper CAN NOT re-trip this guy. He's already made an AoO for that particular action (ie: standing up), so if the guy tries to stand again, yes - the trippee has used his full actions for the round, but the Tripper also got to make his 1 AoO on the target for that one single action type taken that provoked the AoO in the first place, right?
EVEN letting the "re-trip" take place, the tripper can ONLY make 1 AoO for "stand up" movement that grants an AoO ... IMO, this is regardless of how many times the guy tries to stand - Tripper man can ONLY get 1 AoO for any given action that provokes an AoO - so *at best* you get the tripped person to blow all actions in order to right himself (assuming the 2nd trip works on the AoO). At worst ... the tripper misses his 2nd trip attempt and the guy stands up anyway (and still has a standard action to whomp 'em with for knockin' 'em down in the first place).
Honestly, given that AoO' actions can *only* grant 1 AoO attempt per action type, yeah ... I'm not seeing *anything* wrong w/allowing a re-trip to stop the first move action.
On the Tripper-side, going full tilt here w/4 attacks as a full attack, work it like so:
1) first attack at full bab = trip to get an AoO
2) target is now prone (-4 to ac), so burn all other "to hits" smackin' 'em.
3) tripee's turn comes up, move action to stand ==> AoO from Tripper, that he uses to trip again - it works ==> +1 AoO for Tripper to do damage *and* make this yutz stay on the ground.
4) Tripee uses his remaining action to stand ==> AoO's already been provoked and taken from this EXACT SAME POSITION, so the tripper can NOT make an additional AoO on him - at all.
Am I off on something here?
All I'm *really* seeing here is +1 attack out of all of this, and a self-infliced "action burn" on the trippee ...
Honestly, given that AoO' actions can *only* grant 1 AoO attempt per action type, yeah ... I'm not seeing *anything* wrong w/allowing a re-trip to stop the first move action.
On the Tripper-side, going full tilt here w/4 attacks as a full attack, work it like so:
1) first attack at full bab = trip to get an AoO
2) target is now prone (-4 to ac), so burn all other "to hits" smackin' 'em.
3) tripee's turn comes up, move action to stand ==> AoO from Tripper, that he uses to trip again - it works ==> +1 AoO for Tripper to do damage *and* make this yutz stay on the ground.
4) Tripee uses his remaining action to stand ==> AoO's already been provoked and taken from this EXACT SAME POSITION, so the tripper can NOT make an additional AoO on him - at all.Am I off on something here?
All I'm *really* seeing here is +1 attack out of all of this, and a self-infliced "action burn" on the trippee ...
Well, look at it from round-to-round:
Round 1) Tripper trips the target with his first attack and uses remaining attacks
Round 1) Trippee uses his entire rounds worth of actions to get up
Round 2) Tripper trips the target with his first attack and uses remaining attacks
Round 2) Trippee uses entire round's worth of actions to get up
And so on…
The pattern is enhanced if the tripper has reach and Combat Reflexes in two primary ways:
1) The tripper can keep multiple opponents prone.
2) The tripper can keep a target from ever reaching him because all move actions are used to simply get up
Get on your hands and knees in front of me, I'm willing to bet that I can knock you square on your back or stomach each and every time you get back to starting position.
What you're describing would be more closely modeled by a readied action, which already allows a sort of trip-lock. If you're dedicated to keeping a guy on the ground, he's in for a rough time.
not paying attentionWe did point it out.
Here it is again. ---> http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/tripLockingDoesntWorkOfficialRulingOrNot&page=3#144
So he crawls 5ft., provoking AoO, and stands. Tripper 5ft steps and full attacks, with the first attack being a trip. Tripper now gets a full attack on prone target, and target can do nothing but lay there and attack back at a -4.
All your other ideas have been handled earlier in the post also. I will check when I get back to see if you found them.
I appreciate that you don't want to read what I'm actually saying because it's easier to act obnoxious and superior, but except for the "crawl" part you ignore all the other options there are.
1. You can try to stand up in place twice (two move actions) and if he doesn't have 2 or more AoOs, you get away with it.
2. The tripper doesn't get a "full attack" on you once he uses his first attack to trip you. He gets the rest of his attacks, which is 0 at low level (as you're obsessed with how uber this is even at low level).
3. You can just full attack at -4, cast, or do whatever other stuff - you don't have to lose any actions because you're tripped.
Anyway, I'm comfortable with my understanding of the rules, and if you don't want to be ignored maybe you shouldn't be an ass when someone does respond.
I appreciate that you don't want to read what I'm actually saying because it's easier to act obnoxious and superior
Pot, kettle, black.
As has been pointed out about a half dozen times in this thread so far, none of your options are workable if the tripper has reach. A tripper with reach on their opponent is immune to all attacks if trip-lock is allowed. Also, your #2 point is completely false thanks to Greater Trip.
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I offered an observation on the "realism" of a trip-lock. I don't beleive I was off the mark, nor did I engage in "name calling". Specialized builds built around specific manuevers are generally (but not always) attempts to take advantage of some percieved loophole in the RAW. Please tell me if this is not.
If you took offense from something in my post, it was unintended. I simply stated that, imo, the rules are more "realistic" in that they prevent this tactic from working.
I quoted Remco Sommerling in my post, not you.
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Every way you named has a defense to stop it that is not hard to come by. Trip lock is the only mundane one that kills you without a way out. Even if you are stunned the duration is normally short, and you get a fort save to avoid that. Trip-lock give you nothing, just lay there and take it. Blinded is cured by a 2nd level spell. All the others have build in counters, but not trip lock.How would a PC feel if the monster did this to him?I keep asking this, but I am not getting any takers.I wouldn't mind at all.
A vampire can dominate me. A cleric can Hold Person me. I can be Fascinated, Stunned, Paralyzed, Petrified, Level Drained, Grappled, Entangled, Swallowed Whole, Blinded, Magic Jarred, Soul-trapped, Imprisoned... Jeepers, that's just the first handful of nastiness that I thought of in about the 20 seconds it took to type it - I'm sure there's scads more I didn't list.
Adding Trip-locked to that list really doesn't change much. 1,000 ways I can be wiped out, or 1,001 - it's really just about the same to me.
Heck, at least with a housruled trip-lock (you know, the kind you CAN'T do by RAW but yet some people seem to be worried about it anyway), I might get out of it, or just lay there and fight back with the penalties. I might even win. There's a lot of other badness out there that will either kill me outright or take me out of the fight instantly with no way for me to fight back, so Trip-lock seems pretty tame to me.
Trip lock gives you CMD. You seem to keep forgetting that.
not paying attentionWe did point it out.
Here it is again. ---> http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/tripLockingDoesntWorkOfficialRulingOrNot&page=3#144
So he crawls 5ft., provoking AoO, and stands. Tripper 5ft steps and full attacks, with the first attack being a trip. Tripper now gets a full attack on prone target, and target can do nothing but lay there and attack back at a -4.
All your other ideas have been handled earlier in the post also. I will check when I get back to see if you found them.
I appreciate that you don't want to read what I'm actually saying because it's easier to act obnoxious and superior, but except for the "crawl" part you ignore all the other options there are.
1. You can try to stand up in place twice (two move actions) and if he doesn't have 2 or more AoOs, you get away with it.
2. The tripper doesn't get a "full attack" on you once he uses his first attack to trip you. He gets the rest of his attacks, which is 0 at low level (as you're obsessed with how uber this is even at low level).
3. You can just full attack at -4, cast, or do whatever other stuff - you don't have to lose any actions because you're tripped.
Anyway, I'm comfortable with my understanding of the rules, and if you don't want to be ignored maybe you shouldn't be an ass when someone does respond.
I was not being an ass. I did answer all your observations. They were brought by another poster earlier in the thread. I just used the word "post" by accident. I am also tired of continually typing the same thing over and over again. It is on the page preceeding this one most likely. Asking someone to go back one page is not to much to ask.
Trip lock gives you CMD. You seem to keep forgetting that.Every way you named has a defense to stop it that is not hard to come by. Trip lock is the only mundane one that kills you without a way out. Even if you are stunned the duration is normally short, and you get a fort save to avoid that. Trip-lock give you nothing, just lay there and take it. Blinded is cured by a 2nd level spell. All the others have build in counters, but not trip lock.How would a PC feel if the monster did this to him?I keep asking this, but I am not getting any takers.I wouldn't mind at all.
A vampire can dominate me. A cleric can Hold Person me. I can be Fascinated, Stunned, Paralyzed, Petrified, Level Drained, Grappled, Entangled, Swallowed Whole, Blinded, Magic Jarred, Soul-trapped, Imprisoned... Jeepers, that's just the first handful of nastiness that I thought of in about the 20 seconds it took to type it - I'm sure there's scads more I didn't list.
Adding Trip-locked to that list really doesn't change much. 1,000 ways I can be wiped out, or 1,001 - it's really just about the same to me.
Heck, at least with a housruled trip-lock (you know, the kind you CAN'T do by RAW but yet some people seem to be worried about it anyway), I might get out of it, or just lay there and fight back with the penalties. I might even win. There's a lot of other badness out there that will either kill me outright or take me out of the fight instantly with no way for me to fight back, so Trip-lock seems pretty tame to me.
I was saying there is nothing you can do about it if the tripper is optimized for trip. He will most likely have a reach weapon, and I would have access to enlarge person to get more reach. I am no danger of a lucky crit in either situation. You can't crawl away, nor stand up. You can't attack because I have reach. You can't pull an item out because that provokes. Well you can pull an item out, but it just leads to a free attack for the tripper. The tripper could actually ready an action to stop your best chance of getting out of the situation and just use AoO's to defeat you.
PS: Lazarus is awesome. My PC had to be started and my post was still saved.
Assuming then that the concentration check fails, so does the spell. (because it was interrupted by the AoO)
If making the concentration check is what determines if the spell goes off then the making or not making of the check is the determining factor.
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Assuming then that the concentration check fails, so does the spell. (because it was interrupted by the AoO)
It was not interrupted by the AoO itself, it was interrupted from the failed concentration check. If you want to institute a house rule for a concentration-like check to stand up if hit by the AoO, that's your business.
How to deal with triplock:
Attempt to stand (move action)
IF triplocker fails CMB check (natural 1 always fails), stand and act as normal.
IF triplocker succeeds at CMB check, use either attack from prone at -4 if possible (-2 if I can get flank), or use Total Defense (standard action) to gain +4 dodge bonus to AC (negating the -4 penalty for being prone.
The triplocker still has to whittle down my hp to kill me (no Coup de Gras like any of numerous ways to render me helpless). I can still move to a limited degree and still attack.
Every round I have a chance to get out of it, and even if I fail I can still take an action (unlike held, asleep, or paralyzed).
The cycle is not unbreakable. I can still act. It's rough, but not a fight ender since you are not out of the fight. When being triplocked is a good time to go and make a sandwich (like paralyzed) I will be worried about it.
Betting on a natural one is not a strategy.
What is acting as normal? An optimized tripper has a reach weapon, and if you leave a threatened square you provoke again.Reach weapons prevent attacking back.
Triplocked is sandwich time. I would make my tripper enlarged to make sure it was sandwich time, but I dont even know if that is needed.
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How to deal with triplock:
Attempt to stand (move action)
IF triplocker fails CMB check (natural 1 always fails), stand and act as normal.
IF triplocker succeeds at CMB check, use either attack from prone at -4 if possible (-2 if I can get flank), or use Total Defense (standard action) to gain +4 dodge bonus to AC (negating the -4 penalty for being prone.
The triplocker still has to whittle down my hp to kill me (no Coup de Gras like any of numerous ways to render me helpless). I can still move to a limited degree and still attack.
Every round I have a chance to get out of it, and even if I fail I can still take an action (unlike held, asleep, or paralyzed).
The cycle is not unbreakable. I can still act. It's rough, but not a fight ender since you are not out of the fight. When being triplocked is a good time to go and make a sandwich (like paralyzed) I will be worried about it.
Betting on a natural one is not a strategy.
What is acting as normal? An optimized tripper has a reach weapon, and if you leave a threatened square you provoke again.Reach weapons prevent attacking back.
Triplocked is sandwich time. I would make my tripper enlarged to make sure it was sandwich time, but I dont even know if that is needed.
Strikeback Feat sez hai2u!
See, we can do this all night long. Optimized builds vs. non optimized builds, back and forth with tactics and their counters, and the counters to the counters, and the counters to that.
You have your opinion, I have mine.
Some people agree think one way, some people think the other way.
I had a low-level fighter prone and surrounded by no less than 6 gnolls who were all determined to keep me on the ground. How did I escape? I attacked defensively while making use of my Combat Expertise feat and then stood up. I knew that I wasn't going to hit anyone, but the +5 bonus to AC it gave me (+2 combat expertise and +3 fighting defensively) made all the AoO's I incurred miss. On their turn they all tried attacking/tripping me again, and missed due to my high AC and a little luck. Not everyone will have Combat Expertise, but everyone can use full defense to better escape similar situations.
I then tumbled past their "circle of death" on my next turn and hit the lead gnoll (a flind gnoll I think) with a ranged attack moments before our party wizard's fireball wiped them all out.
Getting out of a trip lock takes effort, but it's far from impossible. Trip locking is hardly a perfect tactic.
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Okay, I get the concerns about trip locking and those who do not like it.
I also get the concerns about those that favor trip locking as it requires a great expenditure of resources (feats may be more common but they ARE still a resource).
Personally, and this is my OPINION, I have no problem with trip locking.
Why?
Well, if I am a solo PC and I manage to get myself in a situation where I am completely hosed, whether by being trip locked, turned to stone, being forced into a Save or Die situation, or whatever, it's pretty much my own darn fault. My character will either deal with the situation or die. I was obviously stupid and, well, stupidity does have a price.
My question is where the heck are the other party members? That is usually why we adventure in parties. Did they abandon the trip locked PC? Are they indifferent to his circumstance and don't want to bother with helping the poor character? Are they trapped in their own individual fights and cannot possibly help the trip locked character (sounds like they make some poor choices on the way here to begin with...)?
Okay what if the PC is trip locking the monster? Ummm, okay. As a GM I WANT the PCs to "win" and do well- I want to challenge them not kill them. I have HUNDREDS of other encounters to throw at the PCs. If I cannot possibly find an encounter that a trip locking PC cannot foil, I really should not be running the game. If the encounter is not much of a challenge that is okay. They feel "empowered" and rewarded for their build- next encounter will be more challenging. All I see is win-win (normally I HATE that phrase!- lol).
A PC that invests that many feats to maintain a trip lock is likely to be a Fighter (not exclusively- sure, but likely). Why would a GM want to deprive a player who has invested a good deal of his character concept as a trip monkey? That would be like hitting a Wizard ONLY with monsters immune to magic, or hitting a Rogue with monsters immune to precision damage. That's seriously not fun at all.
Okay, I am a Player on the receiving end of the trip lock. Darn! Obviously I made some serious mistakes and misjudgments. As a player I do assume I MUST win every single fight. As a player I ASSUME that every fight is a very likely opportunity for me to get my character killed. I ASSUME the GM does not WANT to kill my PC, but in combat some things just happen and darn he's dead! That is why it is a game. If it were all predetermined that the character wins and lives, well, there's no threat and not any challenge and kind of boring then. I like a game where there are very real RISKS (games with Killer GMs that take a GM vs Player position are not fun to me).
Now, that being said, if I played in a game- as player or GM, and someone had a serious problem with trip locking, I would talk it out and as a group work out a solution that worked. Might involve allowing the Fighter to rebuild his character, maybe it would involve not throwing trip locking opponents at the PC... whatever, the game is about having FUN. It it isn't fun, work something out.
Make it fun for you. THAT is why we play this game with PEOPLE and not a COMPUTER!
I REALLY do not see a NEED for an "official" ruling. When this game comes down to being RULED by the game style of a small group of people in Seattle, it is time to trash the books and move on.
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Okay, I get the concerns about trip locking and those who do not like it.
I also get the concerns about those that favor trip locking as it requires a great expenditure of resources (feats may be more common but they ARE still a resource).
Personally, and this is my OPINION, I have no problem with trip locking.
Why?
Well, if I am a solo PC and I manage to get myself in a situation where I am completely hosed, whether by being trip locked, turned to stone, being forced into a Save or Die situation, or whatever, it's pretty much my own darn fault. My character will either deal with the situation or die. I was obviously stupid and, well, stupidity does have a price.
My question is where the heck are the other party members? That is usually why we adventure in parties. Did they abandon the trip locked PC? Are they indifferent to his circumstance and don't want to bother with helping the poor character? Are they trapped in their own individual fights and cannot possibly help the trip locked character (sounds like they make some poor choices on the way here to begin with...)?
Okay what if the PC is trip locking the monster? Ummm, okay. As a GM I WANT the PCs to "win" and do well- I want to challenge them not kill them. I have HUNDREDS of other encounters to throw at the PCs. If I cannot possibly find an encounter that a trip locking PC cannot foil, I really should not be running the game. If the encounter is not much of a challenge that is okay. They feel "empowered" and rewarded for their build- next encounter will be more challenging. All I see is win-win (normally I HATE that phrase!- lol).
A PC that invests that many feats to maintain a trip lock is likely to be a Fighter (not exclusively- sure, but likely). Why would a GM want to deprive a player who has invested a good deal of his character concept as a trip monkey? That would be like hitting a Wizard ONLY with monsters immune to magic, or hitting a Rogue with monsters immune to precision damage. That's seriously not...
I agree here, Krome, but this post is at least 1, or maybe 2 pages behind, and I am betting that sometime soon Wraithstrike will reply with snarky "zomg! teh trip-lock iz teh ebilz!" type of thing mocking your opinion.
agree to disagree and move on.
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I agree here, Krome, but this post is at least 1, or maybe 2 pages behind, and I am betting that sometime soon Wraithstrike will reply with snarky "zomg! teh trip-lock iz teh ebilz!" type of thing mocking your opinion.
agree to disagree and move on.
Sorry, but I never feel it is "behind" to point out that the game is about having fun and not being bound up by the rules. If someone wants to mock the idea that the game should be fun, then ummmm they have a problem, I'll laugh at them, and move on.
Funny how I only stated an opinion, and stated how I would simply work out a situation at my table... never said I disagreed with anyone. I see value in both sides.
My opinion of this topic is "what is the big deal- you guys need to move on"
So, I suppose I will let you guys waste your time on a topic that has no merit or worth... and I will just "move on"
bye bye :) lol
[go ahead mock if you like... I won't ever see it. This topic has obviously devolved into a total waste of time]
I quoted Remco Sommerling in my post, not you.
You quoted both of us iirc (me in his quote plus him). Nice to know it wasn't me who offended. I didn't think I'd said anything too offensive. On the other hand it was late and I might not have been seeing everything I'd written correctly...
How to deal with triplock:
Attempt to stand (move action)
IF triplocker fails CMB check (natural 1 always fails), stand and act as normal.
IF triplocker succeeds at CMB check, use either attack from prone at -4 if possible (-2 if I can get flank), or use Total Defense (standard action) to gain +4 dodge bonus to AC (negating the -4 penalty for being prone.
The triplocker still has to whittle down my hp to kill me (no Coup de Gras like any of numerous ways to render me helpless). I can still move to a limited degree and still attack.
Every round I have a chance to get out of it, and even if I fail I can still take an action (unlike held, asleep, or paralyzed).
The cycle is not unbreakable. I can still act. It's rough, but not a fight ender since you are not out of the fight. When being triplocked is a good time to go and make a sandwich (like paralyzed) I will be worried about it.
Betting on a natural one is not a strategy.
What is acting as normal? An optimized tripper has a reach weapon, and if you leave a threatened square you provoke again.Reach weapons prevent attacking back.
Triplocked is sandwich time. I would make my tripper enlarged to make sure it was sandwich time, but I dont even know if that is needed.
Strikeback Feat sez hai2u!
See, we can do this all night long. Optimized builds vs. non optimized builds, back and forth with tactics and their counters, and the counters to the counters, and the counters to that.
You have your opinion, I have mine.
Some people agree think one way, some people think the other way.
So you want to go strike for strike with the melee combatant who has you on the ground, really, is that your plan for survival? You are still trip-locked by the way.
I had a low-level fighter prone and surrounded by no less than 6 gnolls who were all determined to keep me on the ground. How did I escape? I attacked defensively while making use of my Combat Expertise feat and then stood up. I knew that I wasn't going to hit anyone, but the +5 bonus to AC it gave me (+2 combat expertise and +3 fighting defensively) made all the AoO's I incurred miss. On their turn they all tried attacking/tripping me again, and missed due to my high AC and a little luck. Not everyone will have Combat Expertise, but everyone can use full defense to better escape similar situations.
I then tumbled past their "circle of death" on my next turn and hit the lead gnoll (a flind gnoll I think) with a ranged attack moments before our party wizard's fireball wiped them all out.
Getting out of a trip lock takes effort, but it's far from impossible. Trip locking is hardly a perfect tactic.
Fighting lowly gnolls not and fighting the PC/monster that is made for trip-locking are not the same thing. In any event aid other would have given one gnoll a +6 to trip you again. I don't see you escaping in my games barring a miracle of all low rolls, nor do I see monsters getting out of it until it gets to the point where their CMD is very high, but not everyone plays to high levels.
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Okay, I get the concerns about trip locking and those who do not like it.
I also get the concerns about those that favor trip locking as it requires a great expenditure of resources (feats may be more common but they ARE still a resource).
Personally, and this is my OPINION, I have no problem with trip locking.
Why?
Well, if I am a solo PC and I manage to get myself in a situation where I am completely hosed, whether by being trip locked, turned to stone, being forced into a Save or Die situation, or whatever, it's pretty much my own darn fault. My character will either deal with the situation or die. I was obviously stupid and, well, stupidity does have a price.
My question is where the heck are the other party members? That is usually why we adventure in parties. Did they abandon the trip locked PC? Are they indifferent to his circumstance and don't want to bother with helping the poor character? Are they trapped in their own individual fights and cannot possibly help the trip locked character (sounds like they make some poor choices on the way here to begin with...)?
Okay what if the PC is trip locking the monster? Ummm, okay. As a GM I WANT the PCs to "win" and do well- I want to challenge them not kill them. I have HUNDREDS of other encounters to throw at the PCs. If I cannot possibly find an encounter that a trip locking PC cannot foil, I really should not be running the game. If the encounter is not much of a challenge that is okay. They feel "empowered" and rewarded for their build- next encounter will be more challenging. All I see is win-win (normally I HATE that phrase!- lol).
A PC that invests that many feats to maintain a trip lock is likely to be a Fighter (not exclusively- sure, but likely). Why would a GM want to deprive a player who has invested a good deal of his character concept as a trip monkey? That would be like hitting a Wizard ONLY with monsters immune to magic, or hitting a Rogue with monsters immune to precision damage. That's seriously not fun at all.
Okay, I am a Player on the receiving end of the trip lock. Darn! Obviously I made some serious mistakes and misjudgments. As a player I do assume I MUST win every single fight. As a player I ASSUME that every fight is a very likely opportunity for me to get my character killed. I ASSUME the GM does not WANT to kill my PC, but in combat some things just happen and darn he's dead! That is why it is a game. If it were all predetermined that the character wins and lives, well, there's no threat and not any challenge and kind of boring then. I like a game where there are very real RISKS (games with Killer GMs that take a GM vs Player position are not fun to me).
Now, that being said, if I played in a game- as player or GM, and someone had a serious problem with trip locking, I would talk it out and as a group work out a solution that worked. Might involve allowing the Fighter to rebuild his character, maybe it would involve not throwing trip locking opponents at the PC... whatever, the game is about having FUN. It it isn't fun, work something out.
Make it fun for you. THAT is why we play this game with PEOPLE and not a COMPUTER!
I REALLY do not see a NEED for an "official" ruling. When this game comes down to being RULED by the game style of a small group of people in Seattle, it is time to trash the books and move on.
Since I can tell people how to get out of the other situations reliably, but triplock is not so easy I dont think stupidity has anything to do with it.
If I am DM'ing then everyone is triplocked. Once I trip lock the fighter there is nobody to protect the back line.
If the player is triplocking then I have to make sure he can't win with the same strategy everytime, but then I defeat the point of the character.
Nobody is a killer DM here, but the situation is not fun on either side. Nobody likes to be locked down.
false accusations
I have not been snarky yet. Stop trying to bait me with lies. No you did not say I had been snarky but it was insinuated.
I agree here, Krome, but this post is at least 1, or maybe 2 pages behind, and I am betting that sometime soon Wraithstrike will reply with snarky "zomg! teh trip-lock iz teh ebilz!" type of thing mocking your opinion.
agree to disagree and move on.Sorry, but I never feel it is "behind" to point out that the game is about having fun and not being bound up by the rules. If someone wants to mock the idea that the game should be fun, then ummmm they have a problem, I'll laugh at them, and move on.
Funny how I only stated an opinion, and stated how I would simply work out a situation at my table... never said I disagreed with anyone. I see value in both sides.
My opinion of this topic is "what is the big deal- you guys need to move on"
So, I suppose I will let you guys waste your time on a topic that has no merit or worth... and I will just "move on"
bye bye :) lol
[go ahead mock if you like... I won't ever see it. This topic has obviously devolved into a total waste of time]
What was the point of that "sorry" at the beginning?
Edit: When someone starts a sentence with "sorry" it irks me because normally they are not sorry, and some demeaning/jerkish comment follows it. I have removed the snark from the post.
Fighting lowly gnolls not and fighting the PC/monster that is made for trip-locking are not the same thing. In any event aid other would have given one gnoll a +6 to trip you again. I don't see you escaping in my games barring a miracle of all low rolls, nor do I see monsters getting out of it until it gets to the point where their CMD is very high, but not everyone plays to high levels.
Earlier in the fight, they did use aid another to try and keep me down. Didn't work.
Also, if all the gnolls have trip weapons, I don't see how it's not the same thing. What they lack in focus (reach weapons and feats and what not) they make up for in sheer numbers (which gives them extra attacks and more area control VS the single higher level trip-dedicated enemy who would have much the same). Isn't that really the best way to trip lock someone? Have one or two people keep the target on the ground while everyone else mashes em' up. I don't see how that is any different from one guy with multiple attacks using his first attack to trip and his remaining attacks to mash em' up.
Fighting lowly gnolls not and fighting the PC/monster that is made for trip-locking are not the same thing. In any event aid other would have given one gnoll a +6 to trip you again. I don't see you escaping in my games barring a miracle of all low rolls, nor do I see monsters getting out of it until it gets to the point where their CMD is very high, but not everyone plays to high levels.Earlier in the fight, they did use aid another to try and keep me down. Didn't work.
Also, if all the gnolls have trip weapons, I don't see how it's not the same thing. What they lack in focus (reach weapons and feats and what not) they make up for in sheer numbers (which gives them extra attacks and more area control VS the single higher level trip-dedicated enemy who would have much the same). Isn't that really the best way to trip lock someone? Have one or two people keep the target on the ground while everyone else mashes em' up. I don't see how that is any different from one guy with multiple attacks using his first attack to trip and his remaining attacks to mash em' up.
Sheer numbers work in real life. In D&D after a point your numbers(number of bad guys) dont matter if you are high enough above them. The numbers that do matter are the modifiers to trip and so on. Another thing to remember is that if aid another did not work, when a single gnoll tripped you before then you only escaped by luck. I don't like using luck as a strategy.
PS:Just to be clear I am talking about optimized trippers, not just some random monster that wants to trip. If you are not really made to trip I think escaping is easier. As of now I still don't see enough mundane ways out of a triplock, if you are not a caster. Even then it is hard to get out.
edit:for clarity.
Sheer numbers work in real life. In D&D after a point your numbers(number of bad guys) dont matter if you are high enough above them. The numbers that do matter are the modifiers to trip and so on. Another thing to remember is that if aid another did not work, when a single gnoll tripped you before then you only escaped by luck. I don't like using luck as a strategy.
PS:Just to be clear I am talking about optimized trippers, not just some random monster that wants to trip. If you are not really made to trip I think escaping is easier. As of now I still don't see enough mundane ways out of a triplock, if you are not a caster. Even then it is hard to get out.
edit:for clarity.
Unless the level/CR disparity is so huge as to make this discussion moot, I fail to see how my suggested tactic (increasing one's defense and moving away) won't help one escape from even a dedicated tripper.
If they have difficulty hitting you, they will have difficulty tripping you and keeping you prone. Simple as that.