How come animal companions don't have better stats in an epic campaign than in a standard point buy campaign? Shouldn't animal companion stats vary depending on the point buy value?
How come animal companions don't have better stats in an epic campaign than in a standard point buy campaign? Shouldn't animal companion stats vary depending on the point buy value?
There are no epic pathfinder rules, and 3.5 animal companions don't work like pathfinder ones.
There are no epic pathfinder rules, and 3.5 animal companions don't work like pathfinder ones.
But there are "Epic Fantasy" Pathfinder campaigns with 25 points to buy stats, and that's what I'm talking about in comparison to low, standard and high (respectively 10, 15 and 20 points). My question has nothing to do with 3.5, sorry about the ambiguous use of "epic".
But there are "Epic Fantasy" Pathfinder campaigns with 25 points to buy stats, and that's what I'm talking about in comparison to low, standard and high (respectively 10, 15 and 20 points). My question has nothing to do with 3.5, sorry about the ambiguous use of "epic".
There are no epic pathfinder rules, and 3.5 animal companions don't work like pathfinder ones.
I don't think they should. The PC's are already getting a stat increase, why should a class ability, which is all an animal companion is, also be increased. If the animal companion is improved then the other classes would have to be improved in some way to compensate. It would also just add more rules to an already complex game.
Edit: I am playing a druid, in CoT, and the animal companion is not suffering at all.
I don't know about druids, but it seems that eidolons should get something since they are the primary class feature of summoners. For druids, their primary feature is spellcasting, something that does rely on ability scores.
I dont think anything beyond stats is needed. The one time I ran a campaign that was so hard ability points were not enough I just gave out an extra feat an a unique ability to be chosen by the players from a list I made.
At least I thought the points were not enough. I later realized I gave out to much, and now only stick to ability points. At the most I might toss an extra feat their way.
Edit: I am playing a druid, in CoT, and the animal companion is not suffering at all.
If the animal companion is appropriately powerful for a 25 point build campaign, then it's too powerful for a 10 point buy one and will dominate the party, I would think. It follows that animal companions should have weaker stats in a 10 or 15 point buy campaign. I see the animal companion more as a part of the druid character itself that has been separated, leaving the druid alone weaker. Think Adam, rib and Eve, metaphorically speaking. It would make sense to me that the stats of the companion should scale with the point buy in the campaign, because he's part of the druid (or ranger).
If the animal companion is appropriately powerful for a 25 point build campaign, then it's too powerful for a 10 point buy one and will dominate the party, I would think. It follows that animal companions should have weaker stats in a 10 or 15 point buy campaign. I see the animal companion more as a part of the druid character itself that has been separated, leaving the druid alone weaker. Think Adam, rib and Eve, metaphorically speaking. It would make sense to me that the stats of the companion should scale with the point buy in the campaign, because he's part of the druid (or ranger).
But by that same logic, ALL character class abilities should scale with point buy. Natural bond is a specific druid class power. Weapon Training would be a specific Fighter class power. Should the Weapon Training abilities increase in a high point buy campaign? No
Higher starting points for stats are their OWN reward and are, in and of themselves, scaling up the character. There should be 0 reason they alter class abilites, wether druid, cleric, wizard, ranger or any other.
It would be unfair if the druids and rangers got free class ability boost along with their better stats and no one else does.
And remember, unilateral inflation DOES NOT EQUAL GAME BALANCE.
If the animal companion is appropriately powerful for a 25 point build campaign, then it's too powerful for a 10 point buy one and will dominate the party, I would think. It follows that animal companions should have weaker stats in a 10 or 15 point buy campaign. I see the animal companion more as a part of the druid character itself that has been separated, leaving the druid alone weaker. Think Adam, rib and Eve, metaphorically speaking. It would make sense to me that the stats of the companion should scale with the point buy in the campaign, because he's part of the druid (or ranger).
Edit: I am playing a druid, in CoT, and the animal companion is not suffering at all.
It depends on the companion and how you build it, and of course play it also. I have the tiger.
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But by that same logic, ALL character class abilities should scale with point buy. Natural bond is a specific druid class power. Weapon Training would be a specific Fighter class power. Should the Weapon Training abilities increase in a high point buy campaign? No
By default, almost all character class abilities do scale with point buy. In a higher point buy a cleric can afford more charisma for channel energy, for example. If an ability score applies its modifier to a class power, that power is affected by point buy.
By default, almost all character class abilities do scale with point buy. In a higher point buy a cleric can afford more charisma for channel energy, for example. If an ability score applies its modifier to a class power, that power is affected by point buy.
But by that same logic, ALL character class abilities should scale with point buy. Natural bond is a specific druid class power. Weapon Training would be a specific Fighter class power. Should the Weapon Training abilities increase in a high point buy campaign? No
Yes.
However, saying that Animal Companions should be impacted by higher point buy is like saying that a Fighter's Weapon Training should be affected by higher point buy.
Currently, they both aren't affected by higher point buy. This is likely for a reason.
The reason of "some abilities scale with point buy" is, in itself, not justification for changing the rules to make another ability scale, as there are just as many abilities that don't scale with point buy.
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I personally feel it shouldn't be altered because it gives a certain amount of power with the stats that it has. This means it can be quantified as a static class ability.
Changing this will change the power it grants.
I feel that the Ranger, Druid, Summoner, and Wizard and Sorcerer (for their familiar), are all powerful enough without having this additional boost.
The Druid is probably losing some of his edge in higher point buy games. Even if we didn't consider the animal companion we'd be faced with the fact that the creatures available through Summon Nature's Ally stay the same regardless of point buy. They might be quite strong compared to 10 point buy PCs, but they're certainly less strong, relatively speaking, compared to 25 point buy PCs. The same can be said of the animal companion though the difference is less pronounced since it can be buffed with spells and magic items.
Luckily the Druid is such a powerhouse that he can handle this change in the balance of power without much worry. He can also look forward to being even better relative to his peers in low point buy games (at least as regards the animal companion and summons). If we were going to power the animal companion up for 25 point games would we also power it down for 10 point games? The Druid might not enjoy that quite as much.
I'm playing a Druid in a game where we rolled stats using a method which produced very high ability scores. My summons are still quite useful. My animal companion is pretty unimpressive, but that has more to do with the fact I picked a hyena than the fact all the PCs have crazy good ability scores. I think that providing better balance between the different animal companions would be more valuable than scaling the companion with point buy.
By default, almost all character class abilities do scale with point buy. In a higher point buy a cleric can afford more charisma for channel energy, for example.
That's not the same. After all, it's still 3+Cha. If you move to Epic Purchase, it doesn't become 6+Cha.
The Druid is probably losing some of his edge in higher point buy games. Even if we didn't consider the animal companion we'd be faced with the fact that the creatures available through Summon Nature's Ally stay the same regardless of point buy.
However, a higher spending limit means better stats for the druid, meaning he will probably have a better wis score. Which means he has more spells (which he can use to summon more critters - or to buff his companion more.)
The fact that the spending limit will change the way how "good" the classes are in relation to one another is hardly limited to animal companions!
With a low limit, classes like monks and bards are in trouble - they need lots of attributes in order to pull off everything their class gives them, meaning they either need to spread their limited resources thin or ignore some of the class's aspects. A fighter, on the other hand, can still work reasonably well, as he only really needs two, maybe three, attributes, and arcanists are the same.
But if you move to a more generous method of assigning attribute values, some classes have an easier time unfolding their wings.
But by that same logic, ALL character class abilities should scale with point buy.
Most of them do because the bonuses from the character's ability scores stack with them and so improve them. Spells are harder to save against, melee combatants hit more often, do more damage, or have longer lasting power (AC and hit points), etc...
Natural bond is a specific druid class power. Weapon Training would be a specific Fighter class power. Should the Weapon Training abilities increase in a high point buy campaign? No
Weapon Training abilities already increase in effectiveness because the ability score improvements all stack with it and make it more powerful and stay effective longer.
Higher starting points for stats are their OWN reward and are, in and of themselves, scaling up the character. There should be 0 reason they alter class abilites, wether druid, cleric, wizard, ranger or any other.It would be unfair if the druids and rangers got free class ability boost along with their better stats and no one else does.
And remember, unilateral inflation DOES NOT EQUAL GAME BALANCE.
Most character class abilities benefit and stack with ability bonuses except for the animal companion, which doesn't benefit if any of my stats increase. Extra spell buffs? Just the idea that I have to spend them on the animal companion, whereas the cleric, sorcerer and wizard don't have to, is proof that the animal companion doesn't scale.
The fact that the spending limit will change the way how "good" the classes are in relation to one another is hardly limited to animal companions!
With a low limit, classes like monks and bards are in trouble - they need lots of attributes in order to pull off everything their class gives them, meaning they either need to spread their limited resources thin or ignore some of the class's aspects. A fighter, on the other hand, can still work reasonably well, as he only really needs two, maybe three, attributes, and arcanists are the same.
But if you move to a more generous method of assigning attribute values, some classes have an easier time unfolding their wings.
Good point, there are other things that don't work out so well. The monk in a low point buy campaign struggles more than other classes. That doesn't invalidate my point though. As it's not possible to discuss and fix everything at once, can we focus on one thing at a time? Thanks.
Good point, there are other things that don't work out so well. The monk in a low point buy campaign struggles more than other classes. That doesn't invalidate my point though. As it's not possible to discuss and fix everything at once, can we focus on one thing at a time? Thanks.The fact that the spending limit will change the way how "good" the classes are in relation to one another is hardly limited to animal companions!
With a low limit, classes like monks and bards are in trouble - they need lots of attributes in order to pull off everything their class gives them, meaning they either need to spread their limited resources thin or ignore some of the class's aspects. A fighter, on the other hand, can still work reasonably well, as he only really needs two, maybe three, attributes, and arcanists are the same.
But if you move to a more generous method of assigning attribute values, some classes have an easier time unfolding their wings.
I think things are ok as they are. To make things like you want them would require a system rewrite. It is not worth the trouble, IMHO.
If I had my druthers, I'd remove animal companion as a class feature and nix the eidolon as well. Extra companions slow the game down and unbalance classes too much in relation to other, companionless classes.
:)
If I had my druthers, I'd remove animal companion as a class feature and nix the eidolon as well. Extra companions slow the game down and unbalance classes too much in relation to other, companionless classes.
:)
Hmmm... I guess I'll soon see how much an animal companion and an eidolon slow down a game, I'm starting Kingmaker tomorrow and I have a druid AND a summoner in the group. Druid has a Medium tiger, Summoner has a quadruped eidolon. (Of course, the group lacks any real fighter, although having said that there will be a dwarf cavalier in the group, he just can't make the first session).
The other party members are a gnome sorcerer (fey bloodline), a halfling alchemist, and a half-elf inquisitor. (By-the-way the druid and summoner are both human). I'm really interested in seeing how this group does, with 2/3 of the party being APG classes.
Dean (TMW)