Hi there,
Would you consider alarm to be a trap spell. By trap spell, I mean if you look at explosive runes and the symbol series and they're specifically detectable by rogues... spelled out in the body of the text.
Alarm has no such remark in it's entry.
What is the community's opinion?
Hi there,
Would you consider alarm to be a trap spell. By trap spell, I mean if you look at explosive runes and the symbol series and they're specifically detectable by rogues... spelled out in the body of the text.
Alarm has no such remark in it's entry.
What is the community's opinion?
Actually you have something wrong.
"...and they're specifically detectable by rogues... spelled out in the body of the text."
This is incorrect -- rogues are specifically able to disable them with the Disable device skill.
Anyone can potentially percieve them -- only Rogues are actually able to take them out -- with the disable device skill.
Hi there,
Would you consider alarm to be a trap spell. By trap spell, I mean if you look at explosive runes and the symbol series and they're specifically detectable by rogues... spelled out in the body of the text.
Alarm has no such remark in it's entry.
What is the community's opinion?
In regards to trapfinding, it is NOT a trap spell. It is often used in traps, but it simply isn't a trap itself.
Actually you have something wrong.
"...and they're specifically detectable by rogues... spelled out in the body of the text."
This is incorrect -- rogues are specifically able to disable them with the Disable device skill.
Anyone can potentially percieve them -- only Rogues are actually able to take them out -- with the disable device skill.
Abraham,
Check out the offical Pathfinder PRD.
Quoting the relevant text here, boldface emphasis is mine.
Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature (only) can use Disable Device to thwart explosive runes. The DC to find magic traps using Perception and to disable them is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.
And if you check the symbol series you're going to find similiar language.
Now I'm not trying "IN YOUR FACE", or anything. :D
I really do appreciate the willingness to help. However, I think the rules do establish that some magic trap spells can in fact be detected by rogues, and hence the question abut alarm.
In regards to trapfinding, it is NOT a trap spell. It is often used in traps, but it simply isn't a trap itself.
That's my line of thought as well, but I'm trying to make sure I don't screw over a player in a future game session. We have a GM/Player understanding about his trap spotter rogue class feature, i.e. he doesn't actually say "I check for traps" every 5 feet, and his character always has the opportunity to find them (Which is how trap spotter is written I suppose).
I just want to make sure I don't screw him over. I've also under "Advice" because I want the best answer, and not RAW.
Much appreciated!
Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature (only) can use Disable Device to thwart explosive runes. The DC to find magic traps using Perception and to disable them is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.
Watcher: Check the quote above: but rebolded.
You are correct everywhere that the trapfinding ability is mentioned and shown it shows exactly that same thing -- but look closely at what it actually says:
It doesn't state "Only someone with the trapfinding class feature can find magical traps."
It says, "Only someone with the trapfinding class feature can thwart magical traps with disable device."
No where in the entire game does it state even once that you can't find magical traps without trapfinding -- it only states you need trapfinding to thward magical traps with the disable device skill.
I emphasis this not to be cruel or mean but to point out that a sorcerer could find a magical trap -- possibly with detect magic even -- which gives you another means for your players to actually notice the trap -- since the rules actually allow them to do so.
The only things that trapfinding does is:
Give a bonus to perception and disable device as these skills pertain to traps.
AND
Allow someone with trapfinding to use the disable device skill to thwart magical traps.
Abraham,
Just to clear one thing up.. that a sorcerer or wizard could locate a magical trap with say.. detect magic is not in question by me. Sure. I'm not suggestioning that only rogues can do it.
One reason I started this thread was actual real world experience. I know my wizard player will not be in the lead with a detect magic spell. After 12 levels and 1.5 years of campaigning, he never has once.
(and if he starts this Monday night's game as some amazing coincidence then I know he's read this thread and he's fired, Ian McCaulley.)
Hence, I'm not concerned with what a wizard or sorcerer can do.. I'm strictly talking rogues.
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Back to the discussion-
I see what you're saying. Certainly I want you to be correct, so I can have the bad guys surprise the hell out of the PCs. That's why I'm not trying to be sarcastic either. I just take my role as a non-adverserial GM quite seriously.
Okay, you boldfaced part of the sentence. Cool. It supports what you're saying.
Now reconcile for me the very next sentence where it establishes finding a DC for magical traps with the Perception skill. What does THAT mean to you? Why is that there?
(And I guess it goes without saying that you don't think alarm is a trap spell, even if rogues can't find it anyway?)
To me, it states: "The DC for the perception check to find a magical trap is X".
This is needed because unlike a normal magical trap (say a lightning bolt trap) which accounts for part of the CR of the trap with the DC of the perception check, there normally isn't a perception check for spells.
Because these spells are "trap like" though they need a perception check so they can be found so they can be disabled with the disable device skill (IF they have trapfinding) -- which also needs a DC (which they provided). The reason they set both to the same DC is probably to make it easier to remember what the DC is and to keep things from getting too complicated.
As a "In my games if not in RAW" I treat the alarm spell as a trap like spell in the same way as explosive runes. It has a direct effect from proximity which while not damage is something the players want to avoid. I would treat a bell that rings when a door is open in the same way (which is kind of what the alarm spell is after all).
Because these spells are "trap like" though they need a perception check so they can be found so they can be disabled with the disable device skill (IF they have trapfinding) -- which also needs a DC (which they provided). The reason they set both to the same DC is probably to make it easier to remember what the DC is and to keep things from getting too complicated.
Okay, I feel we're getting closer.
Again, we're not in disagreement that rogues can disable magical traps with the Disable Device skill- so I am going to remove that from the conversation. Just pare this down to the bare essentials. I have your opinion on the alarm spell as a trap. Thanks for that.
Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.. What I've been taking from your previous posts is that rogues can not find magical traps. Only disable them.
At this risk of dragging this out, did I understand you correctly?
EDIT: Going back to my original post, I wrote "specifically detectable by rogues". I didn't mean "rogues exclusively can detect them", just that "rogues definitely are allowed to detect them".. and "would you count alarm as a trap?
The use of the word 'specifically' wasn't meant to convey 'exclusively'
Edit 2: OKaaaaaaaaaaaay. I see where you wrote that you think anyone can potentially detect them. I skimmed right over that after that "You are wrong" sentence.
I feel you misunderstood my original post.
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Anybody else.. Just keep it simple:
Alarm as a magical trap?
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Unless the spell specifically calls itself out as a trap, then it is not a trap and does not act like one with respect to other rules (including perception to notice and the ability to disable them with something other than dispel or antimagic). Alarm is not called out as a trap, therefor you cannot notice it with just a Perception check, nor can you use Disable Device to remove it (even if you are a rogue).
Not quite. I don't mean that rogues can't find magical traps -- I mean that anyone can find magical traps, so long as they actively look for the trap and make the perception check against the correct DC. The Wizard with detect magic up would sense the magic and therefore might not need the spot check to know something is up (though he'll still need 3 rounds to find the exact spot the spell occupies and then need to determine what the spell is and find some way to magically take it out *possibly with dispel magic* since he can't use disable device to thwart the trap).
Now with trap spotter the rogue can spot the magical trap without actively looking for it (something no one else can do) since it kind of gives him "trap radar".
A point of contention that might come up (just to warn you because this one blind sided my group) is at what point the rogue detects the trap. Is it at point of origin or at the radius it covers (in the case of the alarm spell). What I mean is the alarm spell covers a radius of 25 feet -- from a central point. With trapfinder the Rogue would have a chance to spot the trap when he is within 10 feet of it -- but is the trap the point the spell is cast on, or is it the radius where it sets off? IF it is the point the spell is cast on then the rogue will be within 25 feet of the point of origin for the spell and it will go off without him detecting it. If you decide he can detect the edge of the trap (the point it goes off at ie the 25 foot parameter) then he could detect it without setting it off first.
Okay Abraham, I think we're on the same page. Thanks for your patience.
That word "specifically" must have thrown something wonky in my question.
My rogue has trapspotter, and we'd houseruled it in before it became offical. As GM I don't enjoy being constantly being told "I check for traps".
I take your point about ranges. In fair play, IF I decide alarm is a trap, I'll probably give him a chance to detect it before setting it off. That's why I'm in Advice and not Rules.. I prefer RAI.
Probably I tend to be a bit too much of a stickler for verbage -- a trait I blame on my mother and friends that are now english teachers.
Unless the spell specifically calls itself out as a trap, then it is not a trap and does not act like one with respect to other rules (including perception to notice and the ability to disable them with something other than dispel or antimagic). Alarm is not called out as a trap, therefor you cannot notice it with just a Perception check, nor can you use Disable Device to remove it (even if you are a rogue).
I'm leaning that way Stabbitty. They were pretty conscentious about putting that detect and removal clause everywhere else.
Now just because the alarm spell itself isn't a trap doesn't mean you can't simply make a trap that does the exact same thing if you want your PC's to have a chance to spot and disable it.
Unless the spell specifically calls itself out as a trap, then it is not a trap and does not act like one with respect to other rules (including perception to notice and the ability to disable them with something other than dispel or antimagic). Alarm is not called out as a trap, therefor you cannot notice it with just a Perception check, nor can you use Disable Device to remove it (even if you are a rogue).I'm leaning that way Stabbitty. They were pretty conscentious about putting that detect and removal clause everywhere else.In that same spirit, would a mechanical device that merely rang a bell in a nearby guardroom be considered a trap with respect to Perception and Disable Device?
Allen
Dude....4 year old thread.