I agree with the Mothman and (it is not often I would say this)KaeYoss.I know, right? ;-)
And I think The 8th Dwarf is getting at the crux of the matter – a reading of the rest of the article, on Erastil’s beliefs, the role of priests etc, fairly clearly implies that Erastil’s ‘women should stay in the home attitude’, while most likely misguided in modern Golarion (or Earth), is coming very much from a traditional, ‘survival of the community is paramount’ point of view, NOT a misogynistic one.
That is what I wanted to say I do tend to ramble.... thank you for making it a lot clearer.
I honestly don’t think a community that worshiped Erastil would be too up in arms about a strong minded independent woman... Especially if she contributed to the community.
Imagine if you will two old women chatting at the market as Zeugma the ranger walked past
Old Lady 1 "That young Zeugma lass she is a bit funny in her ways..."
Old Lady 2 " But last winter she killed those wolves who were preying on the outlaying farms and guided that lost merchant caravan in, Erastil bless her..."
OL1 "Imagine what her children would be like if she settled down they would be strong just like her... Hey what’s his name Set's son he is a strong lad, he could be a good match...."
OL2 "I think though she has some wandering in her before she settles down and Erastil is guiding her to help our community and that’s all that we need ask."That’s about as outraged as I can see an Erastil worshiping community get...
The other thing to think about is an adventuring party is a lot like a family and a priest of Erastil could take the mother/father roll in the party.
if a LG god has a dogma like this:
"Should a cleric of Erastil, either male or female, who advocates that a wife leave her abusive husband loose his divine powers because it conflicts with the god's tenet that women "should defer to and support their husbands"You aren't quoting the write-up for Erastil there. You're quoting another poster. Nowhere in the write-up does it even imply that Erastil would strip a priest of power for breaking up an abusive relationship.
It does imply that some of his priests might take an abusive husband out behind the shed for a "talking to" that might possibly involve a club....
You're right. I have not got Kingmaker2 jet. The thread made me a bit upset, my database was not valid enough to quote this
I get the impression Erastil would be ok with you "correcting" the husband with a good ol time beating. :)
|
50 years ago, nuthin,' I remember my mom's outrage at how long it took for the laws to be changed so that a woman could charge her husband with rape (the first US state outlawed spousal rape in '75, the 50th in '93, although only 17 states have the penalties for raping your spouse as severe as for raping a stranger.). The official legal position was that once she accepted that ring, she could no longer say no. This wasn't 50 years ago.
And there was controversy, with very important people arguing about how it would damage the sanctity of marriage if a man lost the right to rape his wife willy-nilly.
New York State was 1984. It was legally impossible for a husband to rape his wife in New York State until then (or for a wife to rape her husband, for that matter).
I find it absolutely insane that happened in my lifetime.
That, and the fact that some states STILL set the bar higher for "is it rape" if the people involved are married. The convicted rapist may not have to register as a sex offender if their victim is their spouse, or the law only counts it as rape if there is physical violence involved.
Absolutely insane.
|
Just as another thought:
Erastil is clearly somewhat patterned on the Horned God of some branches of Wicca, the 'male' aspect of nature to the Gaian 'female' aspect. It's not a shock that he has a view that men lead. After all, he's male and he's leading. It's his natural assumption. This doesn't even go into the points the 8th Dwarf made.
Also, for all those decrying his sexism for wanting women to be mothers, uhm, Gaia is called the Earth Mother, isn't she? What's that second part of the title again? Right. What do you think her views on a woman's role are, given that, apparently, she considers herself a mother first and foremost?
I get the impression Erastil would be ok with you "correcting" the husband with a good ol time beating. :)
Look at his comments on both Cayden Caildean and Sarenrae.
No, he does not give men a "pass" and he actually has very little problem with "strong willed" women.
50 years ago, nuthin,' I remember my mom's outrage at how long it took for the laws to be changed so that a woman could charge her husband with rape (the first US state outlawed spousal rape in '75, the 50th in '93, although only 17 states have the penalties for raping your spouse as severe as for raping a stranger.). The official legal position was that once she accepted that ring, she could no longer say no. This wasn't 50 years ago.
And there was controversy, with very important people arguing about how it would damage the sanctity of marriage if a man lost the right to rape his wife willy-nilly.
New York State was 1984. It was legally impossible for a husband to rape his wife in New York State until then (or for a wife to rape her husband, for that matter).
I find it absolutely insane that happened in my lifetime.
That, and the fact that some states STILL set the bar higher for "is it rape" if the people involved are married. The convicted rapist may not have to register as a sex offender if their victim is their spouse, or the law only counts it as rape if there is physical violence involved.
Absolutely insane.
Well, it seems insane on the surface.. common perception was that it was considered the wives duty to provide for the husband and the husband to provide for their wife in their respective ways (way before 1984 I might add), a husband's abuse of their wife however was never tolerated. The law was flawed ofcourse, but it was never perceived as a major problem as long as the marriage was good and they both 'provided' for eachother the very idea of a spouse raping the other half would have been ridiculous.
Since 1984 it was obvious how much this was outdated and seriously needed changing most likely because divorce was becoming a real option for many people it forced a review of the laws governing marriage.
Laws and common habbits from different times often will look silly or insane placed outside of context and different point of view.
Geeze. What a prick, right? I bet he also likes puppies and tea by the fire. I don't think the problem is that he's old fashioned, I think the problem ia that he's my Grandmother.
"He loves old customs that encourage strong family bonds, no matter how quaint they are by modern standards, and enjoys hunting for sustenance but not for sport. Happy weddings and new babies make him smile."
Looking upon Erastil in this context makes it a bit silly to call him (or your grandmother) sexist. Anyone enjoying simple lives and traditional values is a sexist apparently, it does not seem to me he actually forces this upon anyone, though he might encourage it somewhat because he honestly feels it is the best way to live a happy life.
I recon my late grandmother and grandfather felt like that and calling them sexist offends me a little to be honest.
Yeah, let's not assume everyone is racist and sexist and so on.
Hello OP
I agree with the Mothman and (it is not often I would say this)KaeYoss.
OH MY GOD A FILTHY GRITSUCKER AGREES WITH ME, I MUST BE DEAD WRONG!
Why are you all staring at me like that?
Oh.
(Just kidding ;-))
A very interesting topic would be the effects of easy to obtain magical contraception and how this would apply to gender relations in a magical medieval world.
You mean light night tea, which is found in adventurer's armoury? It costs 1sp (not cheap, but affordable if you're not desperately poor) and guarantees "crop failure". In high dosages, it might even be able to end a pregnancy (don't let the followers of Erastil or Pharasma find out you did that, though...)
Iomedae is the example of independant, strong willed woman thar Erastil fears, in our culture she would be perfect example of the Career Woman... in every sense... lets remind she has outlived her last 2 employers.
Mind the rumours, though - that she climbed the career ladder on her knees. ;-)
Now, to be fair, there's probably nothing to it (she was just able enough for Aroden to notice her and give her the Herald gig), but if you want a bit of extra chauvinism in you games, this rumour is based on the real world slander career women often face. Only this time, your Iomedan Priestess can give the offender a nice threshing for his blasphemies.
Sure, anyone could just change the details they don't like. I'm just wondering why those details are there in the first place.there are.. like 11 more gods, where at least 3 are feminist (Iomedae, Calistria, Lamashtu), and 2 quite independent (Sheylin and Desna)
More like 19 - plus all the minor gods.
Now I have that idea of a local struggle between Erastil and Lamashtu: A local cleric LN of Old Deadeye that takes the patriarchy too far, and willfull (often CN) women converting to Lamashtu out of spite.
Asmodeous will use whatever resourses comes at hand.
"Yeah, but forget getting into a position of real power, lady, your weaker sex is unsuitable for this."
Erastil might have some quaint ways, but Asmodeus is very sexist. Ask the Whore Queens - those female fallen angels who followed him down only to find a ceiling of glass as hard as adamantine.
BTW, did anyone else notice there is a gay Paladin of Abadar in Sandpoint?
Yes. I even mentioned him. I think it was in this thread, but I'm not quite sure.
None of the other gods really fit very well either...but then I realized that Pathfinder isn't D&D, and there really isn't any equivalency. For example, there is no god or goddess at all like Calistria in D&D (playing that type of cleric doesn't appeal to me, but I'd accept that She is someone my PC would know about).
That's true. The Realms had Sharess, goddess of hedonism, but she was not one for skulking around or getting even with people who wronged her. She was pretty much about "Eat, drink and be merry" - being merry meaning, of course, all things carnal.
One thing that disturbs me about some of the posts is those who say it is a "non-issue." In terms of Kingmaker AP, it really is a non-issue, but in matters of PC choice, yes, it is an issue for me when selecting my character.
The non-issue thing does refer to Kingmaker because people were claiming they had to openly burn their books because of this (well, not quite as dramatic).
And it's an issue like so many different things. What if I want to play a mild-mannered, live and let live, hedonist? Calistria won't have me because I have to be vengeful, right? Or a liberator of slaves who won't touch alcohol?
Also, may Gozreh strike down those posters who go on and on about "natural gender roles"; secondary sex characteristics do not a gender make!
Well, except that in a lot of animal species, the males are the warriors while the females care about the young (though there are species where it isn't so).
Females caring for the young has an advantage, as females are better equipped to do so. Especially with mammals (humans belong to that category), where the males are biologically unable to feed infants until a certain time. It's not hard to make a case out of this and say that it's only natural that women keep caring for home, hearth and offspring while men keep on being the hunters.
And let's not forget the cornered she-bear, which is very natural too - and will find both Erastil's and Gozreh's approval!
For an adventurous PC, it doesn't make much sense - you can't take your family along dungeon diving.
And, since you can't make it back each evening to bring back the kill, a male adventurous PC worshipping Erastil doesn't make sense, either.
Erastil doesn't like adventurers at all. So if you're already doing something your deity doesn't really approve of, you might as well do it as a woman.
Did anyone get the impression that he feels that Sarenrae is exactly what Cayden needs?
Now that would be a magnificent disaster, if you ask me!
I don't think CC is the kind of man/god who can keep his eyes to himself. He'd be constantly engulfed in flames.
CC: "Oh, hey Shelyn, what a lovely dayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAA I'M BURNING!"
Serenrae: "What is that, loving husband? You're in heat again?"
CC: "Calistria, remember when you said a mortal couldn't handle you? See, now that I am a GOOOOD IT HURTS IT HURTS IT HURTS"
Serenrae: "Oh, why didn't you finish that sentence? I'm sure you wanted top say '.... I am happily merried to Serenrae'"
CC: "NOT THERE! NOT THERE! PUT THOSE FLAMES OUT!"
I guess this would happen at least 10 times a day. ;-)
Did anyone get the impression that he feels that Sarenrae is exactly what Cayden needs?
Now that would be a magnificent disaster, if you ask me!
I don't think CC is the kind of man/god who can keep his eyes to himself. He'd be constantly engulfed in flames.
CC: "Oh, hey Shelyn, what a lovely dayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAA I'M BURNING!"
Serenrae: "What is that, loving husband? You're in heat again?"CC: "Calistria, remember when you said a mortal couldn't handle you? See, now that I am a GOOOOD IT HURTS IT HURTS IT HURTS"
Serenrae: "Oh, why didn't you finish that sentence? I'm sure you wanted top say '.... I am happily merried to Serenrae'"
CC: "NOT THERE! NOT THERE! PUT THOSE FLAMES OUT!"I guess this would happen at least 10 times a day. ;-)
It seems odd to post 7 times in a row, but I have to admit I actually bother to read 7 short(er) posts rather than 1 that is way too long lol.
It seems odd to post 7 times in a row, but I have to admit I actually bother to read 7 short(er) posts rather than 1 that is way too long lol.
I moved away from big, collective posts, because
This is the whole reason. you know its true
This way, my post count rises faster ;-)
I suspected as much =p
This is the whole reason. you know its true
This way, my post count rises faster ;-)
Simply!
Simply!This is the whole reason. you know its true
This way, my post count rises faster ;-)
Not!
Not!Simply!This is the whole reason. you know its true
This way, my post count rises faster ;-)
True!
|
I get the impression Erastil would be ok with you "correcting" the husband with a good ol time beating. :)Look at his comments on both Cayden Caildean and Sarenrae.
No, he does not give men a "pass" and he actually has very little problem with "strong willed" women.
** spoiler omitted **
In real life, beating a batterer really doesn't make him stop beating his victims, it only makes him more cautious about WHEN he beats them, and the type of threats he uses to keep his victims quiet about the abuse.
Even public shaming doesn't work: Look at Mel Gibson as an example.If the batterer is beaten so severely as to suffer permanent damage, that may interfere with her ability to batter, but it won't change her desire to, or the underlying sickness that makes her want to reduce other people to "less" than her.
Only long, hard, personal introspection and a willingness to be honest and open about one's own emotional insecurities can change a batterer. A support group is needed.
Someone taking the batterer "behind the woodshed" and subjecting him/her to more abuse (likely to be percieved as either unjust or appreciated as masochim/self-punishment by proxy) isn't likely to bring about that crucial change in self-perception.
That's why I'm really skeptical about Chris Brown's "reformation" - it takes a LONG time, IMO, to change your thought patterns from the need to make others "less" to a place where you have better impulse control and no desire to victimize. One year isn't going to cut it when it isn't your decision to stop and seek help, but a court order and your diminished bank account. The ideation started WAY before the decision to attack.
For Erastil, I think he does have a problem with strong willed women - he wants them to be "married off quickly" and "start having kids" so that they are tied down and can't continue their "wild ways."
In real life, that doesn't always work either. Unprepared, overwhelmed and reluctant young parents/partners are more likely to abuse their kids and each other, either with neglect because they don't want to parent/spouse, or through "quick result - wrong lesson" tactics like beatings (because getting married doesn't "magically" change a headstrong, wild-living person into a domestic mouse - and that's a lesson that more people in the real world could learn, too).
|
I get the impression Erastil would be ok with you "correcting" the husband with a good ol time beating. :)Look at his comments on both Cayden Caildean and Sarenrae.
No, he does not give men a "pass" and he actually has very little problem with "strong willed" women.
** spoiler omitted **
In real life, beating a batterer really doesn't make him stop beating his victims, it only makes him more cautious about WHEN he beats them, and the type of threats he uses to keep his victims quiet about the abuse.
Even public shaming doesn't work: Look at Mel Gibson as an example.
If the batterer is beaten so severely as to suffer permanent damage, that may interfere with her ability to batter, but it won't change her desire to, or the underlying sickness that makes her want to reduce other people to "less" than her.
Only long, hard, personal introspection and a willingness to be honest and open about one's own emotional insecurities can change a batterer. A support group is needed.
Someone taking the batterer "behind the woodshed" and subjecting him/her to more abuse (likely to be percieved as either unjust or appreciated as masochim/self-punishment by proxy) isn't likely to bring about that crucial change in self-perception.That's why I'm really skeptical about Chris Brown's "reformation" - it takes a LONG time, IMO, to change your thought patterns from the need to make others "less" to a place where you have better impulse control and no desire to victimize. One year isn't going to cut it when it isn't your decision to stop and seek help, but a court order and your diminished bank account. The ideation started WAY before the decision to attack.
For Erastil, I think he does have a problem with strong willed women - he wants them to be "married off quickly" and "start having kids" so that they are tied down and can't continue their "wild ways."
In real life, that doesn't always work either. Unprepared,...
I guess its good that we're discussing a fantasy game instead of the real world, then right? ;)
|
|
Did anyone get the impression that he feels that Sarenrae is exactly what Cayden needs?
Now that would be a magnificent disaster, if you ask me!
I don't think CC is the kind of man/god who can keep his eyes to himself. He'd be constantly engulfed in flames.
CC: "Oh, hey Shelyn, what a lovely dayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAA I'M BURNING!"
Serenrae: "What is that, loving husband? You're in heat again?"CC: "Calistria, remember when you said a mortal couldn't handle you? See, now that I am a GOOOOD IT HURTS IT HURTS IT HURTS"
Serenrae: "Oh, why didn't you finish that sentence? I'm sure you wanted top say '.... I am happily merried to Serenrae'"
CC: "NOT THERE! NOT THERE! PUT THOSE FLAMES OUT!"I guess this would happen at least 10 times a day. ;-)
More frequently; alcohol burns quickly! :P
|
|
said I'm taking my escapist fantasy land too seriously.
I'm just ruminating online here, thinking about the implications. I know it's a violent fantasy game and stuff that doesn't work in the real world can work in Golarion because it follows genre tropes and things like that.
In the game, my PC would be willing to beat up a batterer, out of righteous anger. In REAL LIFE I'd do no such thing, for a HUGE number of reasons.
KaYos: Your mama bear analogy was nice, but I see your bear and counter with polar bears, wolves, hyenas, and hippos.
|
|
Laws and common habbits from different times often will look silly or insane placed outside of context and...
Very true but I'm not talking about that "different time". I'm talking about a clearly antiquated set of laws from 1700s England (based on a women are property of their husbands -> rape is a form of theft -> you can't steal your own property set of beliefs), that were still on the books in the United States when I was a teenager (North Carolina didn't get rid of the "marriage exemption" for rape until 1993) and still haven't been totally fixed.
|
|
said I'm taking my escapist fantasy land too seriously.I'm just ruminating online here, thinking about the implications. I know it's a violent fantasy game and stuff that doesn't work in the real world can work in Golarion because it follows genre tropes and things like that.
In the game, my PC would be willing to beat up a batterer, out of righteous anger. In REAL LIFE I'd do no such thing, for a HUGE number of reasons.
KaYos: Your mama bear analogy was nice, but I see your bear and counter with polar bears, wolves, hyenas, and hippos.
I was only teasing. You made some interesting points. Fantasy games tend to work the way people want the real world to work. They want "I'll take that no good so and so out back and beat some sense into him" to actually be a workable solution. Alas for my blood pressure that such tactics don't work. Real world solutions tend to be so messy. (and distressingly non-violent)
If only the real world could be as simple as a game sigh...(hey look! I leveled up with this post. Cool, I'm putting my skill ranks into message board humor)
I've been watching this thread for a bit, and I have to say, I think it's great that Erastil is sexist. Why? Certainly not because I support that...I despise sexism...but because it gives me a really good enemy for nongood characters that I can still want to oppose.
I would love to play a neutral (or even evil) adventuress whose overarching goal is to tear down the church of Erastil and weaken him to the point that another deity could destroy him and overtake his portfolio (since mortals can't really do it so much...unless they're crazy powerful liches). And him having that sort of attitude gives me a way to really connect with said character's motivations
|
I would love to play a neutral (or even evil) adventuress whose overarching goal is to tear down the church of Erastil and weaken him to the point that another deity could destroy him and overtake his portfolio
Lamashtu, having already eated one stuffy old male nature god in her mad quest for power (Desna's friend and mentor, Curchanus), seems perfect for this. The 'mother of monsters' seems perfectly suited for this sort of role, being associated with fertility, and also with Dionysian concepts of bloody-mindedness, nature as 'red in tooth and claw.'
I'd re-envision her followers slightly and have the Gnolls, in particular, as an utterly brutal matriarchal society (reflective of real-world hyenas), with the females being the Clerics, Druids and Adepts, and the closest a male can get to the priesthood is through Ranger levels. (Gnoll males who leave, or are kicked out of, gnoll society are, of course, free to take whatever class levels they want, and include Druids, etc.) Goblins who serve Lamashtu might also have female Adepts, and the occasional Witch, Cleric or Oracle, as their spiritual leaders. It might even be a decent option to remove Gyronna completely from the setting and fold her portfolio and followers into the cult of Lamashtu, and give the Mother of Monsters a stronger connection to Hags, which might serve as intermediaries and 'priests' to her humanoid followers.
Lamashtu, having already eated one stuffy old male nature god in her mad quest for power (Desna's friend and mentor, Curchanus), seems perfect for this. The 'mother of monsters' seems perfectly suited for this sort of role, being associated with fertility, and also with Dionysian concepts of bloody-mindedness, nature as 'red in tooth and claw.'
I'd re-envision her followers slightly and have the Gnolls, in particular, as an utterly brutal matriarchal society (reflective of real-world hyenas), with the females being the Clerics, Druids and Adepts, and the closest a male can get to the priesthood is through Ranger levels. (Gnoll males who leave, or are kicked out of, gnoll society are, of course, free to take whatever class levels they want, and include Druids, etc.) Goblins who serve Lamashtu might also have female Adepts, and the occasional Witch, Cleric or Oracle, as their spiritual leaders. It might even be a decent option to remove Gyronna completely from the setting and fold her portfolio and followers into the cult of Lamashtu, and give the Mother of Monsters a stronger connection to Hags, which might serve as intermediaries and 'priests' to her humanoid followers.
Yeah, Lamashtu would fit really well. I'd probably play a Calistrian devotee who sees Erastil's sexism as a wrong to be avenged, myself (not really caring who overtook his portfolio, just that the backwards old bastard went away ^_-).
Point being, though, that it can be really hard to get behind a nongood or especially evil character's motivations when all the "good guys" are really good and you, as a player, can't really see a reason anyone who isn't Saturday morning cartoon villain-esque would oppose them. This sort of thing, though, gives you a motivation (or it does for me anyway) to get behind without your character being that sort of cardboard cutout "muahaha look how evil I am!" type.
he could be a good villian even for a good aligned party of pcs.
Lg, cg, and ng don't always see eye to eye on beliefs, a LG cleric of Erastil would be able to have a problem with a unmarried strongwilled clergywoman of Iomedae as much as having a problem with a clergywoman of Calstria..
so much so that the Erastilan cleric would consider forcefully making said character submit to him.... of course it wouldn't end well... for him.
Oh certainly, it's just that good characters already have plenty of enemies that adding Erastil to the list isn't a big factor in "how well can I relate to my character".
And yeah, that Erastilan cleric would have a very unpleasant morning, trying to remove that awfully pointed and uncomfortable holy symbol from his...well, you get the idea. ^_-
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been watching this thread for a bit, and I have to say, I think it's great that Erastil is sexist. Why? Certainly not because I support that...I despise sexism...but because it gives me a really good enemy for nongood characters that I can still want to oppose.
I would love to play a neutral (or even evil) adventuress whose overarching goal is to tear down the church of Erastil and weaken him to the point that another deity could destroy him and overtake his portfolio (since mortals can't really do it so much...unless they're crazy powerful liches). And him having that sort of attitude gives me a way to really connect with said character's motivations
he could be a good villian even for a good aligned party of pcs.
Lg, cg, and ng don't always see eye to eye on beliefs, a LG cleric of Erastil would be able to have a problem with a unmarried strongwilled clergywoman of Iomedae as much as having a problem with a clergywoman of Calstria..
so much so that the Erastilan cleric would consider forcefully making said character submit to him.... of course it wouldn't end well... for him.
MAKING her submit is Evil...it won't happen.
Wooing her into marriage,now, that's how he'd go about it...and you're saying that would be a bad thing?
The key thing here is Erastil is LG...not LN, not 'hidden' LE. HE's LAWFUL GOOD.
Any and all of his beliefs have to be viewed from that standpoint, not from the N standpoint of a violent feminist, and not from the CN standpoint of a radical anarchist looking to rebel against ANYTHING that might restrict their freedom of choice.
Erastil won't have a problem with ANY adventurers, of either gender, as long as they serve the goals of his church. Sure, he WANTS his followers to settle down, get married, and have kids. But he's not stupid...'settled down' followers don't get high levels and can't defend their people against many of the powerful creatures out there in the world.
Someone needs to go out and tame the world. To defend the farms and people against the madness and horrors of magic. Defending the community against aggression, defending those families, even if they aren't your own, is one of the highest levels of service a follower of Erastil can have.
A woman priest of Erastil who goes about slaying all threats to a community, even if she hasn't married quite yet, is doing Good Work in service to Erastil. She has simply placed defeating those threats as a higher priority then having kids, and if she perishes, she's not going to leave a motherless family behind.
Secondly, there's nothing in Erastil's code that infers women are inferior to men...it's simply a tradition that they should defer to and support their men...and their men should die to defend them, and work themselves to the bone to support them. The pendulum swings both ways. Someone who abuses the sacred bonds of marriage probably incites the WRATH of the god, the same way anyone abusing the legal system and the trust of family would get our goat.
'Career women', who go after power for the sake of themselves, annoy Erastil because he considers having a family the greatest thing a woman can accomplish in life. This is not a Wrong View! It may not be shared by all women, but it is not WRONG. Nor is it evil, or even neutral. Having children and a strong, loving family is generally considered one of the highest Goods by pretty much all cultures.
Also note that sexism in PF makes NO SENSE. If females had an innate -2 penalty to str (or a maximum of 18/50, as in 1E), you might have a point.
But they don't. Women can be just as strong as men, just as smart, just as wise...and most importantly, get just as high a level. The fact that most don't is just reflective of the fact that women basically take care of their children, and don't go around killing things to defend their husbands, as tends to happen in reverse.
I don't feel I can harp on the second side of the sexism argument...Erastil is about husbands providing for and defending their families. He's a god of hunters. Men who don't provide for their families are scum. Men who abuse their families are scum. And the husbands who those women defer to are expected to run out there in the face of bandits and worse, and die to protect them...because the woman can carry on his family without him.
A woman who takes over that defender/provider role might raise his eyebrow, but he'd also give her his unflinching support. She's keeping families strong, supporting the community. If she doesn't have children yet, there's still time. His greatest sorrow would be that she might die defending families of others without a family of her own to carry on after her...but she'd still die willingly for the greater community.
He's LG. That's GOOD and LAWFUL. Remember to apply the proper lens, and don't forget the Good part.
==Aelryinth
Whishing somebody would settle down and forcing somebody to settle down is two different things - Erastil and his followers being mostly good would be on the wishing side of things not the forcing.
They would not deny help and support to somebody who did not want to settle down, as you are part of the community no matter what you choose to do. Like I said before they would probably try and set you up with a date... Like a friend of mines mother who keeps introducing her to doctors and lawyers. My friend is happy doing what she wants to right now and finds her mum a little annoying at the moment. Her mum wants grandkids and she is the oldest daughter and other than the grandkids obsession is a lovely lady.
Not being married would also be such a minor concern as Erastils primary priority is that the whole community (both male and female) is to be protected and provided for. Settling down while important can wait.
I am starting to feel sorry for poor old Erastil with the hatred being aimed at him. It’s not like he is Asmodeus who thinks women are inferior and wants them to submit to him. Or Zon who just wants thinks women are toys and so on. Erastil happens to be a LITTLE old fashioned and that old fashioned just a wish for people to happy families. If it is causing a problem he is willing to put it aside for the peace and benefit of the COMMUNITY (his number 1 priority).
This hate is coloured very much by a modern views:
Unfortunately in the past when women got pregnant they could not devote the same time to food production and out of necessity relied on a partner to bring in the food for her and her young. Preferably this partner would be the father of the children (as the father has a vested interest in ensuring his offspring survive) but sometimes it was not, sometimes it was aunts or the extended family, there are all types of family beyond the western nuclear type.
In modern times food production, is so efficient that the intense labour is no longer required, schooling has freed up a lot of child care time and contraception is also very easy to obtain. This means family bonds required to support a community are not the same as they were in medieval times. This means in modern times, both male and female are not forced to work themselves to death just so the family can survive.
Even the poorest modern men and women of western countries live in a way that the average medieval nobility would be envious. As a result we have time to dedicate ourselves to solving old and creating entirely new sets of social problems. So try and look at this from the point of view of farmers fighting hard to survive in a grim world where there is a divine being interested in making things easier for you and helping you to survive and not from a world where the food is in the fridge and there are police officers, paramedics and fire-fighters that will help you should you need it.
|
|
(hey look! I leveled up with this post. Cool, I'm putting my skill ranks into message board humor)
I initially took your comment as more sarcastic than humorous, but going back and rereading, I see how it was meant not really sarcastically but as a comment on my comment (the emoticon didn't tip me off enough). I could use more ranks in Perception (boy howdy, could I!)
If you knew my family...*sigh* There are some of my kin who feed on sarcastic remarks, so I tend to sometimes see it even when it isn't there.
|
|
Steelfiredragon: I don't think Erastil is into force and blackmail, at all. Those are Evil things.
I think Erastil has Good intentions, but believes in narrower social roles than what our (more cosmopolitan, more Chaotic) society has come to expect.
Social roles, though, change from society to society.
In Real Life: Hopi (agrarian since pre-Columbian times) have traditionally been Matrilinar. English (agrarian since pre-Roman times) have traditionally been Patrilinear.
A Hopi son insisting on inheriting fields, home and household goods ahead of his sisters would have been a scandal to the community. An English daughter insisting on inheriting fields, home and household goods ahead of her brothers would have been a scandal to the community.
Both Hopi and English are agrarian, Lawful communities, and most likely Good people (I will try to emulate Anne Frank and believe people are basically Good at heart).
Mostly I'm trying to show how, using a RL example, Erastil can be a LG deity, and still have narrow roles for people, roles that some people will find too constricting and that others will see as reassuring.
Steelfiredragon: I don't think Erastil is into force and blackmail, at all. Those are Evil things.
I think Erastil has Good intentions, but believes in narrower social roles than what our (more cosmopolitan, more Chaotic) society has come to expect.
Social roles, though, change from society to society.
In Real Life: Hopi (agrarian since pre-Columbian times) have traditionally been Matrilinar. English (agrarian since pre-Roman times) have traditionally been Patrilinear.
A Hopi son insisting on inheriting fields, home and household goods ahead of his sisters would have been a scandal to the community. An English daughter insisting on inheriting fields, home and household goods ahead of her brothers would have been a scandal to the community.Both Hopi and English are agrarian, Lawful communities, and most likely Good people (I will try to emulate Anne Frank and believe people are basically Good at heart).
Mostly I'm trying to show how, using a RL example, Erastil can be a LG deity, and still have narrow roles for people, roles that some people will find too constricting and that others will see as reassuring.
Also, isn't there this priestess of Erastil in the Pathfinder Society book that asserts that the faith used to be more matriarchal?
Contributor
|
Because old fashioned gods of old-fashioned societies, such as those that rely on family farms and hunting, tend to reflect those societies, which are themselves male chauvinist? I personally object to Erastil's viewpoints on gender relations, but I don't see why one would object to his very existence, as there are plenty of religions, current and historical, that subscribe to such a view.I agree 100% with everything you said here. And I wrote the article you're talking about. The above was actually my intent. Erastil's old. He's conservative. He's set in his ways. You'll notice the seeds of this are in his Gods and Magic writeup, and you can see hints of it in his campaign setting writeup, too.
I personally would LOVE to role-play a female Paladin of Erastil and then get a chance to gob-smack all the ignorant fantasy provincials (no poke at real folks living in the country - I kinda do myself) who object to my being so. In short I like having these kind of foils so I could RP revolution-izing the religion. Perhaps at 20th level even changing Erastil's decrepit deitic old mind for Him.
I understand it ain't for everyone, but I like having a tool embedded in the setting to help me engage real world themes and injustices in my game. For me fantasy and RP is a bit like the psychoanalytic interpretation of dreams. Some schools suggest that dream imagery helps us to face at the distance of metaphor those things too hard to face directly. So too with fantasy objects like the priesthood of Erastil. I can engage with sexism and my opposition too it at a little bit of a remove and pound sexist NPCs into bloody pulp with my righteous LG mace. Oh so satisfying. Thank you, Sean.
Just my 2 cp.
|
|
In Real Life: Hopi (agrarian since pre-Columbian times) have traditionally been Matrilinar. English (agrarian since pre-Roman times) have traditionally been Patrilinear.
[tangent] Hopi culture is fascinating. Very powerful social connections for a desert-dwelling people that have the highest genetic incidence of albinism (1 in 200, compared to 1 in 17,000 in the general population), a condition that makes life much more difficult in their environment. [/tangent]
The fact that Erastil has female paladins kinda points towards the fact he isn't all that black and white..
look I bestow upon this female the power to smite the wicked(evil), divine protection (save bonus) and a mighty steed to aid her on her quests. blablabla now go do the dishes and tend to your husband..
"For Erastil, I think he does have a problem with strong willed women - he wants them to be "married off quickly" and "start having kids" so that they are tied down and can't continue their "wild ways."
In real life, that doesn't always work either. Unprepared, overwhelmed and reluctant young parents/partners are more likely to abuse their kids and each other, either with neglect because they don't want to parent/spouse, or through "quick result - wrong lesson" tactics like beatings (because getting married doesn't "magically" change a headstrong, wild-living person into a domestic mouse - and that's a lesson that more people in the real world could learn, too)."
I dont think he has a problem with strong willed women at all, he just hopes they bend this strong will towards purposes he thinks are good and proper, he might instill a paladin to protect this simple life of the common folk that are not capable or willing to take up arms.
He seeks to make communities strong by encouraging families, protecting life is a noble cause starting a family isn't any less.
The modern day psycholgy doesn't really apply within the dominion of Erastil, they are typically people that live in the same village their whole lives, tend farms and have simple but happy lives and most people will want to start families of their own and tend their own farms, however repulsive that might seem to 'us'.
|
|
I get the impression Erastil would be ok with you "correcting" the husband with a good ol time beating. :)Look at his comments on both Cayden Caildean and Sarenrae.
No, he does not give men a "pass" and he actually has very little problem with "strong willed" women.
** spoiler omitted **
In real life, beating a batterer really doesn't make him stop beating his victims, it only makes him more cautious about WHEN he beats them, and the type of threats he uses to keep his victims quiet about the abuse.
Even public shaming doesn't work: Look at Mel Gibson as an example.
If the batterer is beaten so severely as to suffer permanent damage, that may interfere with her ability to batter, but it won't change her desire to, or the underlying sickness that makes her want to reduce other people to "less" than her.
Only long, hard, personal introspection and a willingness to be honest and open about one's own emotional insecurities can change a batterer. A support group is needed. Someone taking the batterer "behind the woodshed" and subjecting him/her to more abuse (likely to be percieved as either unjust or appreciated as masochim/self-punishment by proxy) isn't likely to bring about that crucial change in self-perception.That's why I'm really skeptical about Chris Brown's "reformation" - it takes a LONG time, IMO, to change your thought patterns from the need to make others "less" to a place where you have better impulse control and no desire to victimize. One year isn't going to cut it when it isn't your decision to stop and seek help, but a court order and your diminished bank account. The ideation started WAY before the decision to attack.
For Erastil, I think he does have a problem with strong willed women - he wants them to be "married off quickly" and "start having kids" so that they are tied down and can't continue their "wild ways."
In real life, that doesn't always work either. Unprepared,...
I tend to agree with you...but it wasn't until recent time that, with the help of organized psychological and social studies, a methological change in favor of support groups and social treatment began. I just can't imagine the people (and gods) of a less networked fantasy world like Golarion to share this mindset.
Unfortunately their intention has backfired. Instead of wanting to sink their teeth into the Kingmaker AP, players are questioning why they should be following the AP's primary deity; who it turns out is something of ass.
Tell your players to "man up". If they don't like Erastil, don't play as a cleric/paladin/druid/anything of Erastil. If you really feel you need at least some of the party to adhere to Erastil's faith, then I'm sure you can find at least one of your players that finds the god sufficiently appealing. And if that player's character can occasionally arrange marriage interviews for the other players' characters - so much more the fun.
What if, instead of sexism, Erastil advocated forcing evil humanoids into bonded servitude as a means of...
Why do you think this would cause problem? Many players I know would welcome the opportunity to play in such a setting.
Aside from that, do your players never play characters that are evilly aligned?
In case anyone is interested, after a some discussion regarding our preferred means of dealing with the issue, the four players (one man and three women) unanimously chose to change Erastil's doctrine; but only to do away with the genders' pre-determined roles and with no proscribed deference of one gender to the other.
So Erastil's canonical doctrine in our campaign remains that he'd rather that men and women settle down in marriage and support each other to form a family and community but without any specific stance regarding gender. If sexist views are put forward by some servants or followers of Erastil it will be either their own biased views or the result of teachings by some heretical sect of the faith; one not reflected in Erastil's commonly accepted canonical texts.
Another gaming group, lead by one of my female players, has done the same thing for their ongoing Rise of the Runelords campaign to accommodate a female paladin's player.
Aside from that, do your players never play characters that are evilly aligned?
No. The notion of portraying heroes is what draws them to the game. None have ever proposed playing evil characters in the 15 years I've been DMing them and some have voiced a distaste for the idea.
I like Ambrus’ solutions – it is much like what I’ve been considering.
My thoughts on this – sexism is boring in rpgs. That’s the response I’ve got when discussing it with the female players I know. If you’re having to deal with endemic patriarchal nonsense every day; having it crop up in your escapist rpg is just not fun.
There’s also a mechanical issue here: is it feasible that society can be male-dominated, when mechanically there’s absolutely no difference in strength and stamina between men and women? There are no ability adjustments for gender – imagine the effect his would have on say, sports, in our society – so I have a harder time figuring out what Erastil’s rationale is for placing men at the centre of the household – makes no sense to me.
One factor that I’ve not seen brought up often enough is the fact that sexism is more covertly embedded and societally ‘acceptable’ than many other prejudices, so for me it has an additional status that does need to be recognised. I note that the Erastil article has a lot of gender-based ‘traditional values’ stuff – but not one word regarding homosexuals. One would assume that Erastil (as portrayed in the article) would be vehemently opposed to non-progeny producing relationships, yet there’s just no mention of this prejudice at all. I would lay even money that far fewer posters would feel comfortable ‘defending’ a write-up of an overtly ethnically racist or anti-homosexual LG god.
My issue with Erastil being sexist is that it’s a bit boring, it’s not fun to roleplay, and it potentially opens the door for less-enlightened roleplayers to behave in a boorish manner, espousing attitudes that I have no time for under the guise of “that’s what the writeup says”.
It’s a shame overall, as the writeup is good (as they always are), but I know I’m going to have to edit it before I have it to one of my players and make Erastil conservative, but not sexist.