The army's CR x2 is added to the kingdom's control DC to determine the required Loyalty check DC.Do you use this for all loyalty checks regarding an army, or just when recruiting? (e.g. learning tactics, fighting after being routed etc.)
Recruitment / conscription is always the hardest part. As an army builds esprit de corps - gains Morale and learns Tactics - this would fall under the normal Loyalty check DC. I'll probably append a sliding scale to this process to reflect how early lessons (gains in Morale and Tactics) are the easiest, while the later gains are more hard-won.
Being routed deserves its own treatment I suspect.
By the way, has anyone made revisions of the "defeat" rules?
It doesn't make much sense to have the kingdom suffer an equal loss (-2 to all econ/loy/stab) from loosing a 10-man army to losing a 2000-man one.
If anything, the defeat of armies would affect war exhaustion (which is coming up seperately) in addition to a long-term malus. The -2 Econ/Loyalty/Stability malus reflects the loss of young men of fighting age from the nation's non-military elements. In short, think of the horrendous losses suffered by the USSR during WW2. The decimation of that generation of men had long-lasting repercussions.
Given the population numbers of even very propserous kingdoms, the need to deliniate a "manpower" limit is pretty clear. This also explains the prevalence of mercenaries in areas of internecine warfare such as Galt and the River Kingdoms - mercenaries aren't drawn from the local populace as a general rule of thumb. I don't think I'll go so far as attempting to determine such a limit to encompass both raising and reinforcing one's armies, it will be easy enough to set a limit that effectively reflects both sides of the concept.
Fleshing out mercenaries a bit may or may not happen. :)
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Assorted Musings on Kingdom Building, Mass Combat and Armies:
Between the Mass Combat sticky thread, JBE’s combined player-oriented product for Kingmaker campaigns and my musings, I present my combined ‘house rules’ on the subjects of kingdom building, armies and mass combat.
While there appear to be ‘errata’ under consideration for the various buildings, these ‘house rules’ propose no alterations in the BP costs, benefits and/or drawbacks to the official rules. What I am integrating into my own campaign is presented in the following ‘wall-o-text’.
Attempts have been made to integrate everything into its proper section.
Land Areas in the River Kingdoms:
A total of 280 full hexes on the four maps at 70 hexes per map from Chapters 2 through 5 of Kingmaker results in the Stolen Lands encompassing 35,000 square miles – roughly equal in claimable land area to Maine or Indiana (as originally indicated).
The whole of the River Kingdoms including the Stolen Lands is ~600 miles horizontally by ~420 miles vertically for a total claimable area of ~252,000 square miles. This results in a total of 2,016 claimable hexes. This is about 5% more than the entirety of Texas – and thus comparable in land area to a slightly larger than modern-day France.
Brevoy measures ~450 miles vertically by ~400 miles horizontally for a total claimed land area of ~180,000 square miles, 20% larger than the land area of California for a total of 1,440 claimed hexes. Brevoy is probably about the combined land area of the Iberian Peninsula in Europe.
Iobaria measures ~180 miles horizontally by ~225 miles vertically for a total land area of ~40,500 square miles (on a 45 mile scale, although my map for Iobaria does not show a scale so this is a guesstimate), resulting in 324 hexes for the entire area.
All three areas together combined to an estimated area of ~472,500 square miles – equating to 3,780 hexes.
Iobaria may not be deemed to be worth the effort, as Brevoy and the River Kingdoms combine for a total of 432,000 square miles / 3,456 hexes in and of themselves.
By comparison, the total land area of the ‘lower 48’ United States (but including D.C.) is ~3,000,000 square miles. If it comes to pass that Our Rulers are able to conquer the whole of Brevoy, Iobaria and the River Kingdoms, the combined land area is 15.75% that of the continental US. Another way to view the size of the three areas combined is that it is roughly equivalent in size to South Africa.
Making Use of JBE's Book of the River Nations:
I plan to integrate the following elements of this book into my campaign. There are several concepts introduced in this supplement that are being ‘borrowed’ pretty much as-written, as follows:
Building Types: Castle Additions excepting 'Wards'. The Moat is poorly explained, so I recommend adjusting this as you deem fit. Letting ships bypass a moat is pretty silly, so remove this method of bypassing a castle moat.
'Develop Open Spaces' in its entirety, replacing the ‘farms’ element of the official rules. This is the crown jewel of the entire book and worth the price of the PDF. If you use nothing else, this section is excellent. If there are expansions upon this section, I very much look forward to seeing them!
Mass Combat:
- Tactic – Close Quarters.
- Resources - fortification builders, poisons, shields and ships.
- Special Abilities – mercenaries.
- ”Friendly Fire” – ranged capable armies firing on an army simultaneously target not just that enemy army but also all other armies engaging that enemy army in melee during that melee phase.
There are several sections here. Armies, Mass Combat and how these systems interface with the Kingdom Building rules. The approach here addresses buildings, mass combat, armies and war exhaustion.
Buildings:
- Army Buildings: Quite a few of the buildings are necessary to facilitate raising and equipping one’s armies.
- Watchtowers, barracks and garrisons are required to recruit, train and quarter your armies. It gets expensive fast to bivouac your armies in the field…
- Alchemists, exotic craftsmen, herbalists, smiths, stables, tanneries and tradesmen are all potentially required to provide your armies with their resources, including exotic resources such as poisons and siege engines.
- Waterfronts construct ships while piers can house them once constructed.
- Academies, caster’s towers and magic shops access magical weapons for the army and supply ‘healing potions’ for armies comprised of constructs.
- A cathedral, temples and shrines provide invaluable medical assistance, aid in the recuperation of armies quartered within the city walls, enchant armor and supply healing potions.
- Breweries supply other buildings with the booze to help keep up morale. They may provide the basis for healing potions – a truly refreshing beverage indeed!
- The soldiers of your armies as well any mercenaries carouse at the arena, brothels, taverns and theatres alongside your citizens and visitors; pay homage to fallen friends at graveyards; draw inspiration from monuments; spend hard-won pay at the shops and markets. In short, there are very few buildings that do not pertain in some fashion to one’s armies.
- City Walls combined with barracks and watchtowers provide your city’s primary lines of defense against hostile armies seeking to loot, pillage and plunder your cities. A castle and any attendant improvements upon it are your city’s final line of defense. For small cities, a castle may be its sole line of defense.
- Granaries specifically provide the city that they are located within the ability to withstand protracted sieges, feeding the people and armies within the city’s walls. Each granary in a city when that city falls under siege permits the kingdom’s treasury to provide as much as 100 BP during a siege towards that city’s combined consumption costs in order to withstand the siege. Granaries also represent within their ‘block’ various stores of potable water in the form of immense cisterns and water towers as well as stores of non-potable water for fighting fires.
Armies fight a battle in three distinct phases: Tactics, Ranged and Melee. The tactics phase takes place during the first hour of a battle. The ranged phase takes place during the next three hours of a battle. There are two melee phases following the ranged phase, each melee phase taking 4 hours. Total time per battle is 12 hours.
At the beginning of each battle during the Tactics phase, each leader involved makes their Profession (soldier) check. The leader scoring the lowest check declares what tactic they will use, which enemy army they are attacking and their strategy during the melee phases of the battle. This is effectively ‘reverse initiative’, although all combat is resolved simultaneously during all ranged and melee phases.
A particular battle can persist for additional melee phases after the first two against foes that do not fatigue, such as constructs and the undead.
The benefits of leadership: An army led by a creature with the Leadership feat and/or with 5 or more ranks of Profession (soldier) contributes the higher of their Strength or Charisma modifier to their army’s Morale. An army led by a creature with ranks of Profession (soldier) contributes a +1 bonus to OM and DV per 5 full ranks.
Routing and Defeat: Armies have a “rout threshold” that is normally one-third of army hp (rounded up) or the army’s CR, whichever is greater. When an army’s hit points are reduced to this threshold or lower, its commander must succeed on a DC 15 Morale check or the army scatters and retreats from battle. When an army is routed in this fashion, enemy armies that have a greater speed, mobility advantage and/or ranged capability can make one final Offense check against the routed army as it departs the battlefield.
An army reduced to 0 or negative army hp is defeated in detail, its few survivors scattered and its commander captured, slain or fled. Most armies seek to capture enemy commanders in order to imprison, interrogate and later ransom them upon the conclusion of the conflict. Commanders that are unable to be ransomed by the enemy are typically executed or exiled. For NPCs of 6th level or lower they have been captured (01-60%), slain (61-85%) or succeeded in returning to friendly lines (86-00%). Unintelligent armies – comprised primarily of constructs, plants, vermin, unintelligent undead and other mindless or animal level intelligence creatures – are not so discriminate, generally eating or otherwise killing almost every creature in any armies that they defeat (75% chance) with the survivors scattering. For commanders of 7th level or higher their fates are at the GMs discretion.
Optional Expansion – Generational Malus:
When an army is defeated in detail, the consequences can be severe for their kingdom. The kingdom suffers a “generational malus” based on the army’s size modifier to Economy, Loyalty and Stability. The value of this penalty is one-tenth of the defeated army’s size modifier. Track fractional totals, as the cumulative effect could matter. The duration of the penalty is measured in years based on the kingdom’s majority racial population, based on (age of adulthood) + (the class training bracket used for fighters) rounded up to the nearest 5 year bracket. A human-majority population kingdom suffers this “generational malus” for (15 +3 = 18, rounded up to 20) 20 years’ time.
For the sake of simplicity, track this malus from the conclusion of that particular war based upon the total army losses suffered (tracking by unit size). An easy way to do this is total size modifiers defeated during the war, then dividing by ten for the “malus” once the war has concluded.
The “generational malus” does not apply for the defeat of armies that are comprised of mercenaries and creatures that are not of the kingdom’s majority population such as constructs and extraplanar creatures. This malus fades over the course of years, proportionally reducing as time progresses, more babies are made and folk immigrate. The victor of a war suffers only half of the “malus” accrued during the course of the war.
Example “Generational Malus” durations by CRB race:
- Human & Half-Orc: 20 years
- Dwarf: 60 years
- Elf: 135 years
- Gnome: 65 years
- Half-Elf & Halfling: 30 years
Combat Experience: When an army survives a battle – whether in victory or defeat – they have the possibility of learning from that experience (learning a Tactic) as well as building esprit de corps (improving Morale).
For a victorious army, a successful Loyalty check against the kingdom’s control DC is sufficient to learn one tactic of choice and improved Morale from +0 to +1. An army’s Morale can further improve with such a successful Loyalty check by exceeding this DC by 10 (to attain Morale +2), 15 (+3) or 20 (+4, which remains the cap). It is suggested that the tactic learned be one appropriate to the battlefield and the specific strategy or strategies pursued during the course of that battle.
Learning a new tactic requires at least a week without combat or more than a day’s movement and that they have been fully reinforced or its army hp fully healed. An army can qualify to learn several tactics before they are able to benefit from sufficient down time to train in the new tactic. A particular army can learn no more than half of their CR in tactics. Morale can only improve one “plus” per battle regardless of how successful the Loyalty check is.
For an army that is routed, but not defeated, several Loyalty checks must be made. First, a successful Loyalty check must be made for the routed army to reform at a Morale 1 point lower than when it entered the battle it was routed from at an army hp total equal to its rout threshold. Once a routed army has been sufficiently reinforced or otherwise had its army hp fully healed, the army may find it has built some esprit de corps of its own on a Loyalty check equal to (control DC + twice army CR), regaining the lost point of Morale. If this check succeeds by 10 and the routed army had a +2 or higher Morale, it regains its Morale up to a +2. Success by 15 can restore Morale to as high as a previously attained bonus of +3, while success by 20 or more is required to restore Morale to as high as the +4 cap. Learning new tactics from defeat is more difficult, requiring this same Loyalty check to have succeeded by 10 or more (10 +control DC +twice army CR).
Learning new tactics after the first requires increasingly longer time to integrate the new doctrine into that army’s training. A second tactic requires 2 weeks, a third 5 weeks, a fourth 10 weeks and a fifth 20 weeks. Six or more learned tactics requires 40 weeks to learn for each new tactic starting with the sixth.
Army Size Modifiers:
Armies have a size modifier that affects the costs of resources (both to purchase and when paying consumption costs) as well as the “generational malus” suffered by that army’s defeat. A Medium army has a size modifier of 1 and is used as the baseline for almost all resources costs. The size modifier is based upon the theoretical number of creatures composing that army:
- Diminutive 0.1
- Tiny 0.25
- Small 0.5
- Medium 1
- Large 2
- Huge 5
- Gargantuan 10
- Colossal 20
When purchasing resources for an army as well as when paying consumption costs, multiply the resource cost by the army size multiplier to determine the total BP cost. Since a “fine army” is an individual creature of CR 9 or higher, it does not normally fall under the purview of consumption costs. The effects of imprisoned or slain rulers are already covered in the Kingmaker rules. Such matters are left to GM adjudication. For those that must know, a Fine Army has a size modifier of 0.01.
Armies require manpower, resources (in buildings, equipment and materials access either from within its own borders or by way of integrating itself into a larger trade network), training and leadership.
The building blocks of even the most basic armies are a nation’s manpower and officer corps. The nation’s access to certain buildings within its city or cities determines how large an army can be recruited, what kind of resources it can equip its armies with, its training capacity and its ability to maintain a standing army.
A nation’s Manpower is 1 per 1,000 population. This value determines the total of army size modifiers of conventional armies that can potentially be recruited, trained and led during times of war. Armies in excess of this value must be mercenaries or comprised of more exotic creatures.
A nation’s ability to lead its armies via its Officer Corps can be determined in several ways, such as by the ruling characters’ body of followers that are higher than 1st level. If such information is unavailable, the nation’s Officer Corps is 10% of its manpower.
The highest ranking officers, in game terms, are often the 5th and 6th level followers of a particular NPC or player character, contributing at least a respectable bonus on Profession (soldier) checks as well as a bonus to their army’s OM and DV due to their skill and presumably at least a slight bonus to their army’s Morale.
Lower level followers can and often do lead armies. It is recommended, when determining the player characters’ nation’s Officer Corps that it begin at the sum of all 2nd – 6th level followers they have at their disposal.
Armies have several steps that they have to go through before the PCs can set them upon their nemesis: recruitment, training and resources. A fourth step is quartering.
Recruiting an army counts as a “building” action for that kingdom turn. Doing so requires a Loyalty check against a DC equal to the control DC plus twice the army’s CR, as determined by the desired nature of the army as modified by the CR derived from the army’s size. If successful, BP equal to twice the army CR is spent, manpower sufficient for the new army’s size modifier is deducted and 1 commander from the Officer Corps is assigned to the new army. If the attempted recruitment fails due to the Loyalty check, only the army’s CR in BP is spent. The same army may attempt to be recruited again on the following month from the same building(s) at a +4 bonus.
Once a building or buildings are allocated to recruiting and training an army, they are unavailable to do so for any other army whether the recruitment is successful or not. The building action is spent whether the recruitment is successful or not.
Certain buildings are required to serve as the focal point of recruitment as well as where the troops are initially trained.
- A Watchtower (or a Fort from ‘open spaces development’) can recruit, train and/or provide quartering for any army of up to Medium size.
- A barracks is required in order to recruit, train and/or provide quartering for any army of up to Large size.
- A garrison is required in order to recruit, train and/or provide quartering for any army of up to Huge size.
- A Gargantuan army requires two garrisons within the same block.
- A Colossal army requires four garrisons within adjacent blocks in the same city district.
Recruiting Example 1: The Royal Guard
His Majesty desires a regiment of crack troops, so he orders the Warden to recruit a Gargantuan army of 2nd level human Fighters (army CR 7, army size modifier 10). The Warden has to succeed on a Loyalty check against a DC of (control DC +14) to succeed. If the Warden is unsuccessful, the kingdom spends 7 BP and a building action and loses access to those garrisons for recruitment and training purposes until next month. If successful, the kingdom spends 14 BP and assigns an officer from its Officer Corps. Probably a seasoned 5th or 6th level veteran is assigned to lead and train this regiment.
Recruiting Example 2: Militia
His Majesty needs lots of catapult fodder to hurl en masse at his hated enemy. He orders the Warden to conscript as many peasants as he can round up and train sufficiently to fire their crossbows in the same direction without killing each other in the process. Since His Majesty’s Imperial Army is already marching on campaign, the Warden has plenty of garrisons available to do this, not to mention a plethora of freshly minted butter-bars that need some baptisms of fire.
The first militia regiment to be conscripted is a Gargantuan Army of 1st level human Warriors (CR 4, army size modifier 10). The recruitment DC is only 8 higher than the kingdom’s control DC (instead of 14 higher for the Royal Guard), costs only 8 BP to recruit but still takes 1 from the Officer Corps.
“Manpower and butter-bars I have in plentiful supply, the time to achieve victory I do not.”
Training an army does not count as any kind of kingdom action and normally begins the same week that recruitment is successful. The building(s) that the army is recruited in are also tasked with training that army, at least at first.
‘Basic Training’ depends on the army’s creature composition. Conventional armies have the following training time requirements. Consumption cost of one-half army CR is paid during each week of ‘basic training’. An army training with mounts has a different consumption cost (covered in the resources section) which should be used instead of this cost.
- NPC-trained creatures without racial hit dice require (level x level) in weeks, with a cap of 4th level NPCs requiring 16 weeks of training.
- PC-class-trained creatures without racial hit dice require (level x level x2) in weeks, with a cap of 3rd level requiring 18 weeks of training. PC-class-trained armies round fractional army hp up instead of down.
- Monsters / creatures with racial hit dice that are not constructs, extraplanar or unintelligent undead require (CR x CR x3) weeks. It is NOT recommended that most monsters even be permitted to be ‘recruited’ into armies except at GM discretion! Creatures that make at least some degree of sense include but are not limited to: centaurs (and similar creatures); dragon type creatures that are not true dragons; giants; certain animals (war dogs of Molthune come to mind), vermin and the less intelligent magical beasts; others I am sure will also make excellent armies without breaking the basic army-from-CR system. One point to bear in mind is that *very* few armies should be comprised of creatures greater than a CR range of 6 – 8 without good reason!
- Mounts ordinarily should be acquired and trained at the same time as the army that intends to ride them, as noted above.
Basic Training Example 1: The Royal Guard army CR 7, size modifier 10
Basic Training time is (2x2x2) 8 weeks at 3 BP per week, or 12 BP per month for each of two months in addition to the 14 BP paid during the first month to recruit these men in the first place.
Since His Majesty desires his Royal Guard be competent horsemen on destriers, he orders that they also be trained in riding heavy horse (CR 2 mounts), the kingdom spends another 20 BP (2 x size modifier) to purchase the horses via the local stables. The consumption cost increases from 3 (half of army CR 7) to 9 (army CR 7 +2 mount CR).
With recruitment (14), horses (20) and basic training costs (72 {9 x8 weeks}) the Royal Guard is up to a cost of 106 BP and takes 2 months’ time to train. At this point the Royal Guard is CR 7, OM +9, DV 19, consumption 9, army hp 39 (route threshold 13), Morale +0, resources: mounts, speed: 3.33 (10 hexes per 3 days)
Basic Training Example 2: Militia army CR 4, size modifier 10
Basic Training time is (1x1) 1 week at 2 BP for a whopping total of 10 BP (8 to recruit +2 to train). By comparison to the heavy horse-mounted Royal Guard, 8 regiments of militia can be trained and turned out in the same 2 months, using the same two garrisons for recruitment and training and theoretically costing 26 BP less. The catch is in the quartering (2 more garrisons per militia regiment), manpower draw (80 manpower instead of 10) and drain on the officer corps (10 instead of 1). At this point the militia is CR 4, OM +4, DV 14, consumption 2, army hp 22 (route threshold 8), Morale +0, speed: 2
Resources is where the army size modifier primarily comes into play, as it applies to all resource costs, both ‘purchase’ and the subsequent consumption costs for them as applicable. Unless otherwise specified, multiply all BP costs for resources by the army’s size modifier. The resources assigned to an army are, in game terms, provided at the end of their basic training.
- Mounts: BP = CR, consumption = army CR + mount CR (army is mounted) – required buildings: Smith, Stable
- Improved Armor (+1 DV): BP 3, consumption 1 - required buildings: Smith, Tanner
- Improved Weapons (+1 OM): BP 5, consumption 1; improved weapons includes alchemical splash weapons such as acid and alchemist’s fire as well as cold iron and silver weapons in addition to masterwork weapons – required buildings: Alchemist, Smith
- Ranged Weapons (adds ranged capability): BP 2, consumption 0 – ammunition is subsumed in the normal consumption cost as well as within the improved and magic weapons resources – required buildings: Tradesman
- Magic Weapons (+2 OM): BP 50, consumption 2; magic weapons includes everything provided by improved weapons as well as adamantine and magical weapons – required buildings: Alchemist, Smith; any one of: Academy, Caster’s Tower or Magic Shop
- Magic Armor (+2 DV): BP 15, consumption 2 – required buildings: Smith; any one of: Academy, Caster’s Tower, Cathedral, Magic Shop, Shrine or Temple
- Healing Potions: BP 10 (provides 4 draughts that heal army hp = 2x CR), consumption 2.5 per draught used, otherwise consumption 0; draughts can be used post-battle in addition to during battle; healing potions also represent inflict wounds potions given to armies of intelligent undead as well as make whole oils supplied to armies of constructs to affect self-repair; multiple draughts can be pre-purchased and supplied to a particular army if so desired – required buildings: any one of: Alchemist, Cathedral, Herbalist, Magic Shop, Shrine or Temple
- Poison: BP 6, consumption 6 per battle during which they are used, otherwise consumption 0; multiple “battle loads” can be pre-purchased and supplied to a particular army if so desired; poison resources otherwise act as the poison special ability except that armies not comprised of poison-immune creatures or creatures with the poison use ability inflict a 5% loss (minimum loss of 1 army hp) of their own army hp per phase they make use of their poisons – required buildings: any one of: Alchemist or Herbalist
- Fortification Builders: 2 BP, consumption 0; permits field encampments to provide some measure of defense for an army that does not move its full speed on a given day – required buildings: Smith or Tradesman; additional basic training required: 4 weeks
- Shields: as per the JBE supplement, consumption 0 – note that these seem to represent mantlets and tower shields rather than light or heavy shields, which are subsumed within the army’s regular resources
- Siege Engines, battery of: 15 BP flat cost, consumption 5 BP flat cost; limit of 1 battery “attached” to each army with a minimum army size of Small required; halves speed of the army the battery is attached to; can be detached at any suitable army building, effectively quartering the battery at that location OR they may be detached at any point, abandoning the battery, which removes their consumption cost after the current time period – required building: Exotic Craftsman
- Ships: 10 BP flat cost; consumption 1 per ship; each ship can transport 1 size modifier of troops with or without any attached batteries of siege engines; otherwise as per the JBE supplement – required buildings: Waterfront to construct them & may quarter 20 ships; each Pier may quarter 2 ships
Resources Example 1: The Royal Guard
His Majesty decrees nothing but the best for his Royal Guard. Ranged weapons (20), magic weapons (500, consumption 20, +2 OM), magic armor (150, consumption 20, +2 DV), healing potions (100) with an additional 4 draughts (100) for a total supply of 8 draughts’ worth of healing potions; fortification builders (20, additional 4 weeks’ basic training), a battery of siege engines (15, consumption 5, +2 OM) and ten ships to sail them hither and yon in (100 BP, consumption 10).
The additional 4 weeks of basic training costs another 36 BP (for a total of 12 weeks’ basic training from when they were recruited). All of these resources cost a staggering total of 1,005 BP and increase consumption from 9 to 64 BP (9 +20 +20 +5 +10). Total “purchase” cost is now 1,147 BP (106 +36 +1005).
Army hp 39 (route threshold 13), Speed 1.67 (5 per 3 days) or 1 when taking advantage of their fortification builder resource while towing their battery of siege engines; OM +13 (ranged capability, siege engine), DV 21, Morale +0, Consumption 64, 8 draughts healing – each draught restores 14 army hp.
Resources Example 1a: Royal Guard Redux
Given that spending more than 1100 BP on a single regiment is "pricey", His Majesty wisely elects to not sink THAT much of his kingdom’s economic production into a single regiment. Resources are ranged weapons (20), improved armor (30, consumption 10, +1 DV), improved weapons (50, consumption 10, +1 OM), healing potions – 4 draughts (100; 25 BP to replace each draught), fortification builders (20 +4 weeks’ additional basic training at another 36 BP). Siege engines and ships are best commissioned as the need arises.
Total resources cost along with all 12 weeks’ basic training and the initial recruitment cost is a much more tolerable 362 BP (106 +36 +220) spread out over 3 months. The difference between the two regiments: -3 OM = +10, -1 DV = 20, speed = 3.33 (10 per 3 days), consumption 29 (9+10+10) instead of 64. The enormous cost differences permits them to recruit and train 3 regiments instead of one for slightly less BP, albeit at a modestly higher consumption.
Resources Example 2: Militia
The long-suffering militia regiment is not completely left to die like so many flies. The Warden has them equipped with light crossbows and an ample supply of ammunition as part of their basic training – all 7 days of it. (2 x10 size modifier =) 20 BP, for a total of 30 BP from recruitment to the end of training and the issuance of padded armor, quilted caps, spears, light crossbows, clubs and ammunition. CR 4, OM +4 (ranged capacity), DV 14, army hp 22 (route threshold 8), speed 2, consumption 2, morale +0.
Quartering: Simply put, providing army buildings sufficient to house an army in the same manner as is sufficient to recruit and train them greatly reduces their consumption cost, literally quartering it (from a weekly cost to a monthly cost). Once an army is to march more than a half-week to a destination that also has suitable quartering, full consumption costs are to be paid every week. Siege engine batteries can be ‘detached’ and quartered in any suitable building or fort whether or not an army remains to utilize it. (Failure to pay the consumption cost for that battery of siege engines results in the permanent loss of that battery of siege engines.) Ships can be quartered in waterfronts and piers.
Other Stuff
When determining an army’s speed I recommend retaining any fractions of 0.25, 0.33, 0.5, 0.67 or 0.75, if only to convert over to “covers X hexes in Y days”.
Mercenaries cost twice as much to recruit and in consumption for a +0 Morale “green” (no tactics) unit led by a competent commander. However, they do not draw upon your nation’s manpower nor its Officer Corps. The ‘default’ mercenary commander has 5 ranks of Profession (soldier) at a +10 bonus and a +4 ability score bonus applied to his army’s Morale. The maximum size, composition and other details of such mercenary forces are left entirely to GM discretion. It takes a month to recruit such a mercenary army.
Seasoned combat veterans with a higher Morale and 1 or more learned Tactics cost more Consumption (but not recruitment). They also take longer to recruit. Add 50% to Consumption per +1 Morale and +100% to Consumption per Tactic learned. For a mercenary unit with more than 2 Tactics, it is highly recommended that a specific NPC of sufficient skill be determined by the GM – as well as the price he demands (and receives) for his services. Add 1d4 weeks for each +1 Morale and/or each Tactic that unit knows.
Sieges and War Exhaustion to follow ...
incidentally, this thread has been exceptionally useful.
I do have a question though - is it possible to 'upgrade' a zombie horde with better weapons and armor? the rules would seem to indicate you could indeed stuff zombies into masterwork leather armor and shamble them towards Pitax.
incidentally, this thread has been exceptionally useful.
I do have a question though - is it possible to 'upgrade' a zombie horde with better weapons and armor? the rules would seem to indicate you could indeed stuff zombies into masterwork leather armor and shamble them towards Pitax.
The weapons wouldn't do much good for the heartbeat-challenged, but the armor could. Resources should be given to an army with what makes the most sense. Controlling that many zombies is the tricky part!
The weapons wouldn't do much good for the heartbeat-challenged, but the armor could. Resources should be given to an army with what makes the most sense. Controlling that many zombies is the tricky part!incidentally, this thread has been exceptionally useful.
I do have a question though - is it possible to 'upgrade' a zombie horde with better weapons and armor? the rules would seem to indicate you could indeed stuff zombies into masterwork leather armor and shamble them towards Pitax.
hmm...good point about the weapons. the armor tho, that should work. kind of icky but it does make them more effective.
as to controlling them...actually, necro girl has that figured out. she's taken 'undead mastery' as a feat, which is probably the best way ever to mass produce a horde of undead quickly. Then she's going to create dread zombies and have them under her thumb and have the dread zombies herd the zombies into battle.
what i'm more interested in is what the bard is going to do with his lyre of building. he can create battlefield fortifications rather quickly...it's like having a unit of magical combat engineers in his pocket.
That's okay, since (if memory serves) the lyre is only usable once a week. Either way, without pertinent skills such "fortifications" won't do any good. The lyre is ideally suited to such endeavors as field fortifications and in the hands of a highly skilled player can facilitate a proper siege envelopment and counter-envelopment in a few hours.
Pulling off a successful siege only begins with locking down the city ... :)
That's okay, since (if memory serves) the lyre is only usable once a week. Either way, without pertinent skills such "fortifications" won't do any good. The lyre is ideally suited to such endeavors as field fortifications and in the hands of a highly skilled player can facilitate a proper siege envelopment and counter-envelopment in a few hours.
Pulling off a successful siege only begins with locking down the city ... :)
so far, the bard has only used this Lyre of Building during kingdom turns. i've been giving the players a break on the BP cost of buildings when he contributes the lyre to a particular project.
now, the druid on the other hand...She can really do some funky things with siege works. elemental summon spells and nature's ally spells come to mind. a couple/few large earth elementals can dig trenches like nobody's bidness.
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Assorted Musings on Kingdom Building, Mass Combat and Armies:
Between the Mass Combat sticky thread, JBE’s combined player-oriented product for Kingmaker campaigns and my musings, I present my combined ‘house rules’ on the subjects of kingdom building, armies and mass combat.
While there appear to be ‘errata’ under consideration for the various buildings, these ‘house rules’ propose no alterations in the BP costs, benefits and/or drawbacks to the official rules. What I am integrating into my own campaign is presented in the following ‘wall-o-text’.
Attempts have been made to integrate everything into its proper section.
Land Areas in the River Kingdoms:
A total of 280 full hexes on the four maps at 70 hexes per map from Chapters 2 through 5 of Kingmaker results in the Stolen Lands encompassing 35,000 square miles – roughly equal in claimable land area to Maine or Indiana (as originally indicated).
The whole of the River Kingdoms including the Stolen Lands is ~600 miles horizontally by ~420 miles vertically for a total claimable area of ~252,000 square miles. This results in a total of 2,016 claimable hexes. This is about 5% more than the entirety of Texas – and thus comparable in land area to a slightly larger than modern-day France.
Brevoy measures ~450 miles vertically by ~400 miles horizontally for a total claimed land area of ~180,000 square miles, 20% larger than the land area of California for a total of 1,440 claimed hexes. Brevoy is probably about the combined land area of the Iberian Peninsula in Europe.
Iobaria measures ~180 miles horizontally by ~225 miles vertically for a total land area of ~40,500 square miles (on a 45 mile scale, although my map for Iobaria does not show a scale so this is a guesstimate), resulting in 324 hexes for the entire area.
All three areas together combined to an estimated area of ~472,500 square miles – equating to 3,780 hexes.Iobaria may not be deemed to be worth the effort, as Brevoy and the River Kingdoms combine for a total...
Wow, Turin this is great, I like the examples it gives great perspective to all the the land sizes.
Thankyas PJ! The examples for real-world comparisons help ground things a bit. It definitely helps me to retain a better grasp on the scope of things for this campaign.
Turin's rules... yoinked!
Turin's rules... yoinked!
Sweeeet. :)
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Sieges
With the inclusion of siege engines, naturally one wants to use them to lay siege to something. These are cities or "fort-cities". In the event that you don't have any siege engines, or you don't have very many (or lose them due to enemy Special Forces action or to the siege breaker tactic), you certainly don't want to needlessly feed your men and critters into the meat grinder that assaulting a fortified and defended city represents. It’s cheaper - much cheaper - in terms of lives to lay siege to such a city instead. Simply isolate the city from supply and it is a matter of time before they surrender.
Naturally, nothing is as easy as it sounds. A single adept, cleric or druid (not counting other spell casters) can indefinitely take care of hundreds of gallons of potable water a day, let alone the assorted wells, cisterns and other water storage that is generally available. Food is the biggest concern (besides plague and fire - those are handled by Kingdom events already, so we won't worry about that here.)
The first step to emplacing a siege is investment: surrounding the city and isolating its methods of resupply. The waterways have to be isolated in some fashion as do the roads leading into the city. Cavalry patrols control the terrain between road and water. Field fortifications are erected first facing the city walls, then facing outward to protect against any enemy forces attempting to relieve the besieged city. Supply of the invested forces and communications have to be established.
Isolating the city and getting the basic logistics takes a day. Erecting the investment field fortifications takes longer. The longer the siege, the more developed these become. If a besieged enemy is going to attempt to sally forth and strike a blow, the first days are the most crucial. +2 DV on the first day, +4 DV after the first week (with storage for one additional week of the besieging armies’ consumption costs possible), +6 DV after two weeks with the furthest degree of improvement attained at a +8 DV after a full month has passed (with storage for two weeks’ consumption cost for the besieging armies being an option). This presumes fortification builders as a resource for the besieging forces – double these time requirements for besieging forces that do not have that resource.
Once a city has been invested, it cannot raise any additional armies outside of its walls. Armies that are already training within the city walls continue to do so, although for obvious reasons that training is unlikely to continue for very long. The city's own populace has to supply the manpower and officers for any new armies and have all necessary buildings and all of the requisite BP accessible through its granaries. (If the city already has an army in training when it is invested one must determine how far into the training program that army or those armies are to find out how much of the remaining training costs are drained from the city’s granaries. This isn’t perfect, but it suffices.)
A city has sufficient foodstuffs "on hand" to feed its population for one week. The primary building that represents food storage capacity is granaries. Since the kingdom's farmlands can no longer supply the besieged city, Each granary represents sufficient stored chow to supply 100 BP from the kingdom's treasury towards paying the city's consumption cost (from its districts) as well as supplying the army/armies defending it. A besieged city's consumption cost is added to the consumption cost of its defending units to realize a weekly (instead of monthly) consumption total. The benefits of quartering do not apply to a city under siege. Once these supplies run out, the Morale-based siege rules from KM Chapter 5 apply for those under siege.
The besieging force(s) must pay their weekly consumption cost +5 BP per week to maintain the siege and retain clear line of supply. It is possible to a besieging army that has invested an enemy city to find that they themselves have also been invested!
Now comes the fun part: outlasting the enemy. The as-written rules certainly work well enough, although using Morale checks as the only mechanism will result in the "siege" ending in 2 or 3 weeks in almost all cases. Historically, most sieges lasted far longer than that, especially given the technology level of Golarion combined with even a dozen or so 1st level adepts per district (greatly offsetting spoilage, depletion of potable water and the like). Once a city runs out of food (BP from the granaries), the Morale-based rules apply (in addition to war exhaustion).
City Siege Example: “Las Vegas”
For this example, Las Vegas has 10 fully developed city districts (consumption 10) and is ably defended by 10 regiments of crossbow-armed militia (consumption 20). Vegas has 3 granaries holding 300 BP of supplies. Unless Las Vegas is relieved or their commander takes the risk of losing the city sooner, they can hold out at a consumption of 30 / week for a total of 11 weeks’ time before the militia unit’s commanders have to start the Morale check process for resolving their end of the siege. At 11 weeks the besieged city’s country has accumulated 11 war exhaustion (1 per each week Las Vegas endures its siege) plus another 3 for the 3 months’ war up to this point, not counting any other factors.
Subduing a city that capitulates – which is not necessarily the same thing as defeating the nation one is at war with – requires an active garrison at full army hp be assigned to the task. If multiple armies are assigned to pacifying and otherwise ‘restoring order’ (which can be stipulated as ‘going Carthage on their asses’) requires (1 week per city block in the city or 9 weeks per fully developed district) / (combined size modifiers of the army or armies assigned to ‘subduing’ the city). Once a city has been properly subdued, sacked, looted, pillaged and plundered or otherwise brought properly to heel, the conqueror loots 1 BP per developed block that is delivered to their treasury at the beginning of their next kingdom turn.
City Subdual Example: “The Sacking of Las Vegas”
For this example, Vegas has 10 fully developed city districts (90 blocks), resulting in a base time to subdue and loot the city of 90 weeks. The Duchy of Douchebag isn’t screwing around and assigns 5 Colossal armies of Militia to stomp the city into submission (100 size modifiers total). 9/10ths of a week is basically a week (6.3 days), so Duke Douchebaggius eagerly awaits 90 BP of war tribute at the end of that week’s time. None of this so far has touched on the ramifications of war exhaustion.
Declaring War
To declare a war without causus belli requires a standard Loyalty check. Declaring a war with causus belli is automatically successful. Declaring a war against a historical ally requires a Loyalty check against the control DC +50 without causus belli. Declaring war upon one's own vassals is just as difficult without cause. causus belli roughly means "war with cause", or "we have an excuse the masses will accept" in modern parlance. This concept also matters to foreign states - the implications are not immediately noteworthy in game terms, but neighboring states' political connectivity (or lack thereof) with the nation you declare war upon could see other powers honoring various treaties, breaking those treaties, independently declaring war on you or simply keeping quiet and watching the "news" of the war's events. Having a long-held claim on a stretch of territory is often sufficient, although doing so on this basis alone also requires a successful Loyalty check.
Declaring war, whether as the aggressor or in response as the "defender", is the easy part. Often a declaration of war includes some semblance of terms that would immediately see hostilities halt before they even begin. Depending on the aggressors in question your kingdom may see a formal declaration delivered by ambassador, a dastardly assault by surprise or - more often - a formally delivered declaration with hostile troops poised to march directly across your borders if you do not concede to the aggressor's (often outrageous) demands. The ambassador / diplomat is usually expected to return with your response in one piece and alive or otherwise ‘operational’. Lack of a response being received within a reasonable time frame - depending on travel time by horse from border to capitol and back - is probably interpreted as being told "nuts!"
Terms of surrender are very important - "unconditional surrender" is not common. A lot of this depends on factors such as how war was declared, how many of one's allies are threatened and most importantly the role-playing of all involved parties. The initial declaration of war often outlines the scope of what the declaring party seeks to gain. Some of course include no such declarations other than flavor text preceding something to the effect of "we are now at war". Have fun with proclaiming any grievances, territorial claims held in the past - such as Brevoy's "claim" over the whole of the Stolen Lands, which can probably be considered as having been claimed in years past but never formally exercised - as well as religious differences between them and of course political differences that offend the other nation's sensibilities.
War Exhaustion
In a nutshell, the populace's love of their government is determined by the Loyalty score. As we know from raising armies, Loyalty checks significantly in excess of the Control DC are required.
The other use of a kingdom’s Loyalty score besides raising armies and reforming one’s armies after they have been routed is as a measure of one’s subjects’ willingness to be conscripted or trained into armies to die in your wars and generally tolerate life during a war economy. The longer a war rages, the greater the losses one’s nation suffers in defeated armies and sacked cities, the clearer defeat becomes. Success on the battlefield silences critics and bolsters the confidence of the masses in the belief that their boys will be home soon. In short, during war Loyalty replaces Stability as the measure of your nation’s sovereignty.
In agrarian societies such as these, year-round warfare is the exception, not the norm. Unless a kingdom's military is entirely comprised of professionals and/or mercenaries, most warfare takes place mid-spring through mid-fall (after planting and before harvest). The exceptions are prolonged sieges and recurring warfare, when both sides cease aggression by agreement (informal or formal) in order to attend to the fall harvest, riding out the winter and resuming hostilities after the spring planting. In game terms, this situation is handled by hostilities ‘ceasing’ at the proper time in the fall and war is resumed in the spring.
Each month of war requires a successful Loyalty check in place of the normal Stability check, starting at the kingdom's regular control DC and increasing 1 per month after the war begins. Each army that is routed increases this by 2, while each army that is defeated in detail increases this by 5. Each week a city endures a siege increases this by 1 per city (4 per city per month). Each week one's own forces are besieging an enemy city does not decrease your war exhaustion. Each victorious battle decreases your war exhaustion by 1 if you rout the enemy or by 2 if you defeated the majority of enemy forces in detail.
Each time a war continues through the planting and harvest months war exhaustion increases by an additional 2 – March and November respectively. Each winter month increases war exhaustion by an additional 3 – December, January and February. Losing a city adds 1 per district of that city, partially developed or otherwise. Sacking an enemy city decreases war exhaustion by 1 per district (or by 1 per 1,000 population or fraction thereof if you only know the city's population).
All of these decreases and increases are "war exhaustion", added to the normal control DC to determine the necessary Loyalty check for the next month's stability check. (During a war, Loyalty matters more than Stability. Stability = peace time, Loyalty = war time.) Since you only make this check monthly, initial setbacks can be reversed. Failed Loyalty checks generate Unrest as normal for a failed control check with Stability.
During a war the conflicting kingdoms can claim (but not develop) each other's hexes month to month in addition to possible scavenging. If an armistice or cease-fire occurs, such as during the aforementioned 'break' between harvest and planting, hexes that have been claimed AND that are effectively under the other sides' control can be developed. Most such developments would be militaristic in nature - forts and roads most likely. Annexation of territory is not possible during these lulls. The upside is that such time counts as "peace", reducing war exhaustion by 4 per month. Typically, wars are not fought from November through March, leaving the other 7 months of the year ‘wide open’ for conquest and imperialism.
If war exhaustion is severe enough for one side in the conflict, they will often begin to seek terms of surrender once their Unrest (from failed Loyalty checks) reaches 8 or higher. If the enemy's Unrest reaches 20 during the course of the war, the enemy's nation fragments into several smaller bodies and the war ends. Adjudicate the end of the war based upon territory claimed and controlled by the other party or parties, the specific political structure of the disintegrating nation in question and any other factors deemed pertinent.
War Exhaustion fades over time at the rate of 4 per month until your kingdom’s peace-time control DC is once again reached. Once a war is over your nation may have substantial War Exhaustion in effect – this is dealt with by Stability checks instead of Loyalty checks.
There is some times a conference between ambassadors or, more often, Generals during the week or two preceding November’s harvest in order to ascertain the willingness of those one is at war with to press the war during the harvest/winter/planting months. Other times the armies basically just return home, leaving patrols to monitor situations while the important work is attended to at home.
Example of War Exhaustion: “The Vegas Straw Broke My Camel’s Back”
Duke Douchebaggius’ sacking of Las Vegas after a 12 week siege (10 districts, 3 months) following an initial month of skirmishes and dancing around terrain features immediately after his war started just kicked your nation’s pride something fierce. All 10 militia regiments within the city starved to death or were otherwise defeated in detail.
Besides sacking the city, razing it to the ground and carting off everything that was of any value – including slaves – the war exhaustion and other penalties are staggering.
• The loss of 10 regiments of militia penalizes your Manpower by 10, your Officer Corps by 1 and the nation’s Economy, Loyalty and Stability by 10 each for the next 20 years.
• The War Exhaustion from this crushing defeat is a total of 75 (3 additional months’ war +12 weeks’ besieged city +10 city districts sacked +50 for the 10 militia regiments slaughtered) plus the nation’s control DC of (20+size in hexes), resulting in a control DC of (size in hexes +95) that dissipates at a rate of 4 per subsequent month’s time. It will take the better part of 2 years just for the war exhaustion to fade. If the loss of Las Vegas itself is a severe enough blow to the nation’s Economy, Loyalty and Stability, the nation could disintegrate in the aftermath of defeat.
• If it’s any consolation, Duke Douchebaggius only scavenged and looted a mere 110 BP (90 from the sacking of Vegas plus 20 from scavenging the 10,000 militiamen of their arbalests).
Defeat and Surrender
This is generally fairly clear – whether from sufficient Unrest due to the inability to curtail the nation’s war exhaustion, the defeat in detail of all your nation’s armies or the depletion of your treasury and its attendant complications – in when one is defeated.
However, *typically* pseudo-medieval wars such as these are often fought with a specific “wish list” in mind, often as delineated in the proposed terms of surrender that are delivered along with a typical declaration of war. In game terms, a set of hexes of territory are often desired, with the declaration of war making it clear that these hexes are going to be made theirs unless you are prepared and willing to stop them from seizing these hexes.
If surrender terms are negotiated, any unrest from necessary annexations is halved. It is possible that both the victor and the defeated have to annex parcels of territory as part of these diplomatic terms.
Under conditions of negotiated surrender, one cannot easily nor swiftly declare war upon the same enemy too soon. At any time before half of the generational malus penalty for the general population’s dominant race has passed, declaring war against that enemy without causus belli requires a successful Loyalty check against a DC equal to (control check DC plus [half of malus duration in years - # of full years since surrender terms were agreed to]). If the terms of surrender included terms of permanent alliance, the DC is increased by an additional 50.
Annexation is a peace time activity treated as a Stability check against what your nation’s shiny new control DC would be with all the new territory. Failure has all the normal repercussions of a failed Stability check and contributes an additional 2d4 Unrest.
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Sieges
With the inclusion of siege engines, naturally one wants to use them to lay siege to something. These are cities or "fort-cities". In the event that you don't have any siege engines, or you don't have very many (or lose them due to enemy Special Forces action or to the siege breaker tactic), you certainly don't want to needlessly feed your men and critters into the meat grinder that assaulting a fortified and defended city represents. It’s cheaper - much cheaper - in terms of lives to lay siege to such a city instead. Simply isolate the city from supply and it is a matter of time before they surrender.
Naturally, nothing is as easy as it sounds. A single adept, cleric or druid (not counting other spell casters) can indefinitely take care of hundreds of gallons of potable water a day, let alone the assorted wells, cisterns and other water storage that is generally available. Food is the biggest concern (besides plague and fire - those are handled by Kingdom events already, so we won't worry about that here.)
The first step to emplacing a siege is investment: surrounding the city and isolating its methods of resupply. The waterways have to be isolated in some fashion as do the roads leading into the city. Cavalry patrols control the terrain between road and water. Field fortifications are erected first facing the city walls, then facing outward to protect against any enemy forces attempting to relieve the besieged city. Supply of the invested forces and communications have to be established.
Isolating the city and getting the basic logistics takes a day. Erecting the investment field fortifications takes longer. The longer the siege, the more developed these become. If a besieged enemy is going to attempt to sally forth and strike a blow, the first days are the most crucial. +2 DV on the first day, +4 DV after the first week (with storage for one additional week of the besieging armies’ consumption costs possible), +6 DV after two weeks with the furthest degree of improvement attained at a +8...
Wow Turin! I appreciate your extensive work on this. Thanks again.
You're welcome PJ!
If memory serves, adding the two above "walls o text" (close to 20 pages?) to the core KM rules and the choice bits from JBE's book would probably fill out a 32 page book.
^_^
Turin,
This Casus Belli thing and warfare for a cause (and if it is only that you back down from a claim on a province) has a typical Europa Universalis feeling. Nevertheless I agree with oyur approach and you also should observe what happens if an agressor who stated a Casus Belli "The area of <insert province name> was claimed by us since generations" and waged a successful campaing.
If he only demands the province with the CB for peace then all neighbours would accept this and treat the agressor with no big suspicion.
Another thing would be, if the CB was a mere "You didn't paid back the loan I gave you 3 years ago" and then demands 7 hexes in a peace deal.
Turin,
This Casus Belli thing and warfare for a cause (and if it is only that you back down from a claim on a province) has a typical Europa Universalis feeling. Nevertheless I agree with oyur approach and you also should observe what happens if an agressor who stated a Casus Belli "The area of <insert province name> was claimed by us since generations" and waged a successful campaing.
If he only demands the province with the CB for peace then all neighbours would accept this and treat the agressor with no big suspicion.
Another thing would be, if the CB was a mere "You didn't paid back the loan I gave you 3 years ago" and then demands 7 hexes in a peace deal.
The Europa Universalis feeling is what I'm aiming for. My intent is that declaring wars, negotiating surrender terms and so on be roleplayed rather than handled by mechanics.
^_^ So yes, if Brevoy wages war on <insert PC kingdom name> they have casus belli, whereas if <insert PC kingdom name> declares war on Brevoy first eyebrows will definitely raise.
One could cobble together some kind of system or another, probably based on the Diplomacy charts. Makes Diplomacy a very VERY important skill for nations wishing to avoid ruffling too many feathers.
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I was just wondering, if anyone had thought of using Cavalier armies? I saw the new armies in the River books (great source by the way) and the royal aarmies used paladins. I figured cavalier armies would be useful also. The thing is Cavaliers get their mounts for free. I feel this should decrease intial consumption, but not consumption per week. The cavalier is such a useful clas in Kingmaker, as opposed to any other AP, that a cavalier leading a cavalier unit, of like order, seems natural. Any thoughts?
I was just wondering, if anyone had thought of using Cavalier armies? I saw the new armies in the River books (great source by the way) and the royal aarmies used paladins. I figured cavalier armies would be useful also. The thing is Cavaliers get their mounts for free. I feel this should decrease intial consumption, but not consumption per week. The cavalier is such a useful clas in Kingmaker, as opposed to any other AP, that a cavalier leading a cavalier unit, of like order, seems natural. Any thoughts?
Makes sense - an all-Cavalier army would not pay the additional BP for thier mounts but would have to pay consumption costs.
Cavalier armies have a substantial consumption cost that subsumes replacement costs of slain mounts. However, unilke regular cavalry, Cavalier's mounts degrade since armies don't gain levels.
Common sense pretty much dictates that you couldn't field more than one Gargantuan army of Cavaliers. They would make spectacularly nasty heavy cavalry though, as the mounts are companion-based (which affects mount CR and thus consumption cost).
A cavalier army (or a paladin army if you permit ones of high enough level to access divine bond mounts) has higher CR mounts potentially. Once such a force is routed, they lose those mounts and have to replace them with "normal" CR 1 or CR 2 mounts with attendant BP costs - *if* the check is successful in regrouping that army after the battle.
Question, in the sample armies the Centaur Outriders are a huge army. That puts them at 500 centaurs, but in the Varnhold Vanishing when you encounter the centaur tribe it says the whole tribe is only 200 centaurs. How can they field an army 2.5 times their population? Same thing for the sample Kobold army it's size is listed as gargantuan which puts it at 1000 kobold warriors. Their Silvermine home could never support that many troops. Where are these extra warriors coming from?
The Nomen centaurs are a part of the VASTLY larger centaur hordes in the eastern steppes, who probably number a few million in total. Sparing 500 of them is not a terrible task. :)
Kobolds probably breed as fast as rabbits given sufficient food and reasonable security from most depredations. More workers = more room is quickly dug. And the Greenbelt has not one but two mines - the Sootscales can certainly expand (in some campaigns at least) in a few years' game time to operate out of all of the mines a kingdom has.
I have a question regarding the special ability spell-casting. How many people in the army have to have this ability to qualify on having this ability...is like 25%, 50% of them total army, or do ALL of the soldiers in the army have to have this ability for it to count?
Any help would be appreciated.
I have a question regarding the special ability spell-casting. How many people in the army have to have this ability to qualify on having this ability...is like 25%, 50% of them total army, or do ALL of the soldiers in the army have to have this ability for it to count?
Any help would be appreciated.
All of them.
If you're using the stuff above, here's some guidelines to keep spell-caster armies in check:
1.) Not more than 10% of a kingdom,s manpower pool can be trained as adepts.
2.) Not more than 5% of a kingdom's manpower pool can be trained as arcane casters.
3.) Not more than 5% of a kingdom,s manpower can be trained as divine casters other than adepts.
Arcane casters can be trained in academies and quartered in libraries, casters towers and academies.
Divine casters can be trained in temples and quartered in shrines, herbalists and temples. A cathedral counts as two temples for training/recruiting/quaertering divine casters.
Graveyards equate to barracks for unintelligent undead armies.
Thank you for the reply Turin, but I have another question.
If an army is on the retreat, and they are retreating through a city (down streets and alleyways), are they able to do damage to buildings (with fire and other methods) and such as they go, or are they only allowed to retreat and do nothing else?
This conundrum erupted in my game and basically stopped the game so I really need a clarification. The argument was that since there are troops in a castle, they can simply snipe anyone attempting to burn a building and such (400 troops in castle, 1000 troops in retreat). The castle was placed on the back right corner of the district map, and the army retreated away from the castle through the city in order to gain cover from arrow fire and to do damage to buildings (out of frustration).
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you for the reply Turin, but I have another question.
If an army is on the retreat, and they are retreating through a city (down streets and alleyways), are they able to do damage to buildings (with fire and other methods) and such as they go, or are they only allowed to retreat and do nothing else?
This conundrum erupted in my game and basically stopped the game so I really need a clarification. The argument was that since there are troops in a castle, they can simply snipe anyone attempting to burn a building and such (400 troops in castle, 1000 troops in retreat). The castle was placed on the back right corner of the district map, and the army retreated away from the castle through the city in order to gain cover from arrow fire and to do damage to buildings (out of frustration).
Any help would be appreciated.
It really would depend on the army. Firing some buildings to generate concealment from the smoke (combined with cover from the buildings and rather quickly gaining sufficient distance to eliminate ranged attacks against them) would be an excellent method of facilitating retreat while blocking peppering fire from the castle.
Setting enough fires would allow an attempted ambush of the castle's troops as they sally forth to fight the blazes. Either the fires are fought and the castle's troops enter harm's way to counter the fires, or swaths of the city burn to ash. A tough call to be sure.
Hopefully the PCs can contain the fires with some high-level weather control spells. The enemy army could/will escape to fight another day without ambushing and slaughtering the castle guard.
Nice house rules Turin. It looks like you REALLY plan on using the mass combat part more than built into the app. I want to try to fit in more as well and earlier but im not sure your house rules are for me. They seem pretty complex. While i understand them, my players would probably just get wide eyed and decide to just go at it without armies. I wish you would have put your ideas in a seperate house rule thread though. It's hard to find Q&A applying to scecifically to official mass combat rules. Plus, your rules are scattered over the thread and it's hard to find them in one place for those who are looking for them.
Has anyone actually ran through the entire AP yet? I do like the simple rules since the mass combat wont even be used in the AP that much and there completely new as well. Like a lot of people i have found some things lacking or unanswered or wanting just a little more. For instance, at first i thought armies moved around on a "map" the same as players. Positioning is a huge factor in war so this is probably one area i will expand on just for completeness. It seems smaller armies don't have a chance but if two small armies could hide in the woods and flank and suprise another army then it could do some damage. So i will be wroking on a way to apply flanking to armies and ambushes.
One thing i dont see answered is city defense and fortifications. I think armies that are in a city automatically are in the city and fight from there? meaning they get to add the total city defense mods to there own? How does an enemy army even attack the kingdoms fortified army when the city has walls? can they only attack with range? Can they bring down the walls? Depending on the official rules,this will help me decide what rules of my own to incorporate. I'm considering using normal walls and hardness and allowing normal armies to damage them and bring them down. but without knowing how it currently works it's hard to figure a formula. I also am planning on adding in gates to my kingmaker as well.
Also i seen mention of one man PC armies. As james said i dont see this feasable. a PC member would get slaughtered no matter his level against such odds. I know my players are going to try though which is why im also working on rules for that. The best solution i have come up with to make armies realistic against a PC is to actually make the army a gigantic swarm! after all it's exactly that! once the pcs find themselves surrounded by hundreds of solders who only need to occupy space and swarm them for damage each round the joke will be on them.
One thing i haven't seen addressed at all that i can see my players doing is this. The players army beats the enemies army and kills them. Payers, " you said the army was around 500 men right?" Me, "yes thats correct". PLayers,"well since there all dead we're going to have our army go in and salvage there equipment. how much is chainmail worth again?" with an army of 1000 with magical items thats 1 million gold after 50% retail. how are GM's handling this as i can't be the only one who this will happen too!?!
Cities can provide a defense bonus. So that you don't go absolutely stark raving bonkers, apply one bonus from each source of defense (walls, barracks, watchtower and castle) for each army defending a given city. There's a reason that historically it was considered not even worth the time to assault a fortified city with anything less than 3:1 odds...
The ambush modifier is nasty and an effective way to reflect successfully flanking a force. Denying the use of any tactic (not the same as a strategy) to the opponent is horrifically effective against seasoned combat units.
A one-man PC "army" is at least a 9th level character, who counts as a CR 1 army (plus bonuses from gear). Running one's PC as a CR 1 army is rather deflating - no need for much more than that against an army IMO. :)
CR 1 9th level PC army (magic weapons, magic armor, non-spellcaster) has at best a paltry 7 army hp, OM +4 - ranged capability, DV 14. Against even a militia regiment they're facing even odds ... against a professional army, they're in trouble. Spell casters have lower army hp but higher OM and DV, so it balances out.
Salvage is in BP at 1/10th the equipage cost. Say that it cost 500 BP to equip an army with magic weapons. The lootable items that survived the battle equates to 50 BP (100k gp if they cash it out - and the gawds help them if they blow the check to pull this off).
Also, they have to be able to defeat the army in detail - they may not be in a good position to do so if they're fighting multiple armies (which they should be in Chapter 5).
Cities can provide a defense bonus. So that you don't go absolutely stark raving bonkers, apply one bonus from each source of defense (walls, barracks, watchtower and castle) for each army defending a given city. There's a reason that historically it was considered not even worth the time to assault a fortified city with anything less than 3:1 odds...
you just allow one source as a housrule? i was actually inquiring how city defense and fortifications work per AP RAW. im actually not understanding the way it even works.
It's hard to desipher if your explaining AP RAW, houserules, or spouting ideas lol. can you be specific in each case?
I know a PC CAN be made into an army, and that it's feasable in the rules. But thats not what i was getting at that my players would try to do. what i can see them doing is setting out and trying to kill the entire army OUTSIDE of mass combat. Meaning, chipping at the army or taking it head on and fighting it in rounds and normal battle! lol After all, a PC only has so many squares at which enemies can attack him from. Even an army of 500 level 2 warriors a group of level 13-15 PC's could probably EVENTUALLY kill them all in rounds easily ;)
Cities can provide a defense bonus. So that you don't go absolutely stark raving bonkers, apply one bonus from each source of defense (walls, barracks, watchtower and castle) for each army defending a given city. There's a reason that historically it was considered not even worth the time to assault a fortified city with anything less than 3:1 odds...you just allow one source as a housrule? i was actually inquiring how city defense and fortifications work per AP RAW. im actually not understanding the way it even works.
It's hard to desipher if your explaining AP RAW, houserules, or spouting ideas lol. can you be specific in each case?
I know a PC CAN be made into an army, and that it's feasable in the rules. But thats not what i was getting at that my players would try to do. what i can see them doing is setting out and trying to kill the entire army OUTSIDE of mass combat. Meaning, chipping at the army or taking it head on and fighting it in rounds and normal battle! lol After all, a PC only has so many squares at which enemies can attack him from. Even an army of 500 level 2 warriors a group of level 13-15 PC's could probably EVENTUALLY kill them all in rounds easily ;)
AP RAW says they stack - if your city has 150 city walls built, the defenders enjoy a +600 DB.
The only problem with a PC group taking on an army outside of mass combat is that you have to be ruthless in applying statistical odds. Or, as your own house rule, building them as a swarm. :)
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Cities can provide a defense bonus. So that you don't go absolutely stark raving bonkers, apply one bonus from each source of defense (walls, barracks, watchtower and castle) for each army defending a given city. There's a reason that historically it was considered not even worth the time to assault a fortified city with anything less than 3:1 odds...you just allow one source as a housrule? i was actually inquiring how city defense and fortifications work per AP RAW. im actually not understanding the way it even works.
It's hard to desipher if your explaining AP RAW, houserules, or spouting ideas lol. can you be specific in each case?
I know a PC CAN be made into an army, and that it's feasable in the rules. But thats not what i was getting at that my players would try to do. what i can see them doing is setting out and trying to kill the entire army OUTSIDE of mass combat. Meaning, chipping at the army or taking it head on and fighting it in rounds and normal battle! lol After all, a PC only has so many squares at which enemies can attack him from. Even an army of 500 level 2 warriors a group of level 13-15 PC's could probably EVENTUALLY kill them all in rounds easily ;)
AP RAW says they stack - if your city has 150 city walls built, the defenders enjoy a +600 DB.
The only problem with a PC group taking on an army outside of mass combat is that you have to be ruthless in applying statistical odds. Or, as your own house rule, building them as a swarm. :)
That's also what I did, built them as a swarm. It gives the whole group pause when you have a few hundred people acting as one!
Do the core rules have anything about recruiting armies in them? I didn't see anything as I looked through. I know the River Nations book and several posters here have included limitations and/or time requirements, but I'm curious if the original rule set addressed it at all.
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Do the core rules have anything about recruiting armies in them? I didn't see anything as I looked through. I know the River Nations book and several posters here have included limitations and/or time requirements, but I'm curious if the original rule set addressed it at all.
No it really didn't. On the other hand you'll find out that Loyalty stat becomes important real quick.
Hello everyone,
how do you handle especially Cavalier and Paladin armies?
Cavaliers always have a mount as a companion and Paladins of lvl 5 and higher might have a mount too.
So i decided that an army of Cavaliers or lvl 5 Paladins has the mount resource without extra consumption because the mount is a clas feature.
Secondly Cavaliers have the Cavalry Expert tactic automatically (who has ist if not a Caval(r)ier).
But how do you handle the Paladin's Lay on Hands? Consumption free Healing Potions?
I am planning to write up some rules about kingdom buildings and things that would enable more specialized troops (along the lines of "if you build X number of Academies, and your kingdom size is Y, then you can add the spellcasting...
Any possibility of seeing your finalized mass combat rules?
Cv cannot go below 0.
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So I have a question about Army CRs. It says that to determine an army's CR, adjust the CR of an individual member of that group by the appropriate modifier of the army's size. It also says that if the group's CR is lower than 1 - it does not count as an army. Now, here's where I get confused. My kingdom of 10 hexes has a Caster's Tower and we want to build an arcane caster unit. The maximum sized arcane caster unit I can build at less than 21 hexes is diminuitive or 10 individuals. The size modifier for a diminuitive unit is the CR of the individual creatures -6. So this means, that to meet my minimum of CR 1 for an army, my teeny, tiny, no-name kingdom must somehow recruit 10 7th level wizards to meet the requirement? or 10 5th level adepts? Am i reading that right? the leaders are only around 5th level themselves!
Yes, know that. What I'm asking is whether 'consumption' from armies is the same as consumption from hexes/city districts. So, if you build enough farms, could you field armies at no BP cost?
CV is a weekly cost, farms generate in months. So it would take 2 farms to offset an army with a CV of 1.
So I have a question about Army CRs. It says that to determine an army's CR, adjust the CR of an individual member of that group by the appropriate modifier of the army's size. It also says that if the group's CR is lower than 1 - it does not count as an army. Now, here's where I get confused. My kingdom of 10 hexes has a Caster's Tower and we want to build an arcane caster unit. The maximum sized arcane caster unit I can build at less than 21 hexes is diminuitive or 10 individuals. The size modifier for a diminuitive unit is the CR of the individual creatures -6. So this means, that to meet my minimum of CR 1 for an army, my teeny, tiny, no-name kingdom must somehow recruit 10 7th level wizards to meet the requirement?
Yes, spot on. The maximum size is meant to show how rare casters are compared to people that can swing a sword.
or 10 5th level adepts? Am i reading that right?
8th level adepts, but otherwise yes.
the leaders are only around 5th level themselves!
The kingmaker adventure does not assume they don't get into mass combat until their kingdom is much larger than 10 hexes. At that size, even a small army will quickly drain the kingdom's treasury, fast. Remember the CV is in weeks, not months.
(Yes, if I do a 2nd edition of the BotRN, I will make CV in months and just multiply the values by 4. Its on the list of things to fix, someday.)
I was just wondering, if anyone had thought of using Cavalier armies? I saw the new armies in the River books (great source by the way) and the royal aarmies used paladins. I figured cavalier armies would be useful also. The thing is Cavaliers get their mounts for free. I feel this should decrease intial consumption, but not consumption per week. The cavalier is such a useful clas in Kingmaker, as opposed to any other AP, that a cavalier leading a cavalier unit, of like order, seems natural. Any thoughts?
Hmmm... I'll have to look into that.
Does anyone know if on any of these forums anyone came up with a system that is similar to the battle system as presented by Paizo but just added a battlefield movement system?
Is the Ranged Phase attack affected by the army's Tactic chosen in the previous phase? Relentless Brutality seems really odd for a ranged volley.
I haven't used these rules yet, but would it be plausible to say that an army can attack a city district instead of the whole city?
I just saw the huge bonuses for stacking wall defenses. I'm not sure if this will ever come up, but at those levels is it even possible (near raw) to successfully siege the city? If not, I would rule that you could attack a district.
Oh wow... the James Jacobs, sweet! I admire your work sir.
Oh also, I'd like to run a more army heavy game (we are all 40k players) and I was thinking about having so many BP be scavenged from a defeated/routed army. What do you think about that?
Or perhaps having an army in the field being able to pillage a Farm hex to reduce their consumption?
Also I saw that it takes a month for a kingdom to lose a hex from an invading army, but how much damage can an army do to existing improvements in the hex during any period of time? Also in my army heavy scenario what would be a reasonable number (if any) of consumption or BP to be gained by raizing the hex?
I used 10% of the BP value of an army's resources to scavenege from a unit that is defeated on the field (routed forces don't drop anything.)
A month to raze a hex should scale to the size of the force doing the nasty. 100 men I can see taking a month - thousands will do it much faster. 4,000 men on hippogryphs will do it in a day (excepting roads and bridges) due as much to fly speed as sheer numbers.
Looting and pillaging a hex won't amount to much - a low consumption force can perhaps sustain itself foraging in this fashion. Sacking cities is where it's at.
Check the mass combat sticky for other ideas!