Some confusion: First are you the DM or another player?
And to answer your question -- Yes you always get a save.
Unconscious people are treated as willing, but that's typically for spells that require willing recipients.
I believe your party mates would still get saves.
Just a heads up, the Charm Person spell shouldn't solve that problem. I have several friends that I get along great with but we can't work together well. I don't think that this is the best way to address the problem.
To me, it sounds like you may have an out of game problem that needs to be addressed out of game.
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The other players all play Magic the Gathering and they think it's acceptable to argue about everything because it's "acceptable" in Magic. The concept of "You are adventurers, you rely on each other for survival, when you argue about something for an hour and a half the GM gets bored and throws monsters at us." is a little above their heads it would seem.
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From the PFSRD:
"Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
Asleep == willing =\= automatically giving up your saving throw
From the PFSRD:
"Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
Asleep == willing =\= automatically giving up your saving throw
WRONG!
Lets try this again:
"Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
Please note that it does not say that a willing target doesn't get a save throw, and It is all in conjuction with the spells that are restricted to willing targets only.
Charm person does not have such a restriction, and it gives a save while being willing doesn't specifically state that you don't get a save throw.
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Really, this should be the DM's job.
Either talk to them out of game about how all the arguing is affecting game play and ask them to table the arguments until after the game, or limit argument discussion to 30 seconds, or continue game play while they're arguing.
"The monster hits you for 17 damage."
"One sec, we're still talking about..."
"Well, while you're talking you take 17 damage. Now roll me a fort save, or should I assume you willingly fail it?"
Either the players don't realize it is an issue, or they don't care. Approach the dm first and get his thoughts on the matter. Maybe the two of you can work together to show them the mechanical benefits of occasionally tabling the mechanics search for later :P
Roleplaying experience anyone? Yes please!
Okay, then another question: How do I deal with a bunch of argumentative ninnies?
You figure out who the bull is. The real alpha dork of the pack.
Then you walk up to him, and smash him in the nose with a beer bottle.Then, you hand him a carton of smokes, and shake his hand.
Then say,
"okay, gentlemen...let's play."
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Okay, then another question: How do I deal with a bunch of argumentative ninnies?You figure out who the bull is. The real alpha dork of the pack.
Then you walk up to him, and smash him in the nose with a beer bottle.
Then, you hand him a carton of smokes, and shake his hand.
Then say,
"okay, gentlemen...let's play."
They all think they are alphas. I could try that with all of them, but then I'd be out of a group.
I'm a half-celestial Aasimar paladin, I have a chaotic evil Kinder (hvqwblvkbs-me) rogue-cleric (I'm waiting to catch him doing something I can kill him for, tired of having to worry about atonement spells) who has earned the moniker "Douchebag-Dave", a Lawful neutral Human(?) Druid and Human Fighter,a Human Rogue who also happens to be the Druid player's girlfriend (so it's the inept leading the blind), and a chaotic good Kobold Artificer who is the only person that listens to me and doesn't argue.
Not to be... something here but it seems like the problem is the entire party present company not excluded.
First off -- why should they "Listen to you?" They came to play not be bossed around.
I think there are some conflicting expectations, and from the sounds of it, playing styles going on. If you want to clear this up you -- and the other players are all going to have to sit down and talk this out together.
Finally I'm wondering why you think a paladin would be Lawful Good and still able to forcibly and trecherously compel someone else to obey him through an ambush spell casting of enchantment magic.
Okay, then another question: How do I deal with a bunch of argumentative ninnies?You figure out who the bull is. The real alpha dork of the pack.
Then you walk up to him, and smash him in the nose with a beer bottle.
Then, you hand him a carton of smokes, and shake his hand.
Then say,
"okay, gentlemen...let's play."They all think they are alphas. I could try that with all of them, but then I'd be out of a group.
I'm a half-celestial Aasimar paladin, I have a chaotic evil Kinder (hvqwblvkbs-me) rogue-cleric (I'm waiting to catch him doing something I can kill him for, tired of having to worry about atonement spells) who has earned the moniker "Douchebag-Dave", a Lawful neutral Human(?) Druid and Human Fighter,a Human Rogue who also happens to be the Druid player's girlfriend (so it's the inept leading the blind), and a chaotic good Kobold Artificer who is the only person that listens to me and doesn't argue.
Roll an albino drow were-spider assassin/necromancer (2Ed)and kill each and every one of their characters.
Nothing brings people together like an albino drow were-spider assassin/necromancer launching poisoned shuriken at their faces! :D
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I don't expect them to listen to me, not in the way you are thinking, I expect them to actually consider what their party members say and take it into consideration before making their decisions.
I expect them to actually try to work together to accomplish their goals, the only thing they can be considered as to working together on is killing monsters, often in vague, inefficient, and sometimes weird ways.
I wasn't using the spell, the rogue NPC the GM told me to keep track of has decided that we will not succeed in our current mission if the group continues arguing amongst themselves and she recently got the charm person spell as a part of her talents. So she was going to go about trying to get them to behave better this way. Naturally, without my character's knowledge.
Firstly, if it's a 'player' problem that's interfering with the game then try appealing to their hunger/greed for xp/gp. Explain that all the to and fro is holding all your characters back. Then try and engage them with a common goal, ie. establishing a stronghold, finding and slaying a dragon etc. Something that will be incentive to work together.
On the other hand, if it's a 'character' problem, then 'in character' work out what each character's goals are and while everyone's resting or in downtime explain your amazing plan - that happens to go some way to achieving those goals.
Lastly, remember your a Paladin. Lead by example. I know your character wasn't aware of the Charm Person plan, but if he did, then I'd expect a LG Paladin to defend his allies' honour. This is important because if you're seen by your party to be sticking up for them and to take the money shots, then they're more inclined to follow your lead.
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They seem to enjoy arguing more than fighting monsters, gathering money or role-playing. I've told them to stop arguing, it's pointless, wastes time, and endangers the entire group, they don't understand it.
The druid is spectacularly self-centered (his player is incapable of being anything else) and will put his goals before everyone else, even if it means splitting the party. I don't think hes capable of learning from others unless it's something particularly painful/humiliating.
I've tried leading by example, they don't follow, like I said they all think they are chiefs. I role-play, I don't argue (except once because the druid player thought I was metagaming, which I wasn't, long story short: I chose flaming instead of +1 or keen against a Hydra because fire ends fights faster, not because it can't regen from fire) I carry out the missions the group initially sets out to do, and I do my level best to keep the party from splitting, again. Now I'm not the only one, the aforementioned Artificer is usually with me, but that's 2/6, I need to get the other 4 in line.
Were it up to me I'd just split the party taking the useful players with me.
Were it up to me I'd just split the party taking the useful players with me.
I hate to say it, but this sounds deserved. Leave 'em to it IMO. Sounds like they should still be playing cardgames.
Having said that, i don't know them, or the situation. But if it's like you've described i wouldn't put up with it for too long- and in the past i've had to leave groups like this. Purely because that's not the type of game i enjoy - and life's too short.
Either way you go, make sure everyone knows in advance what you're doing and why. You never know, they might get the hint.
Good luck.
k, well if you're giving the DM a fair run, i see your predicament. Try teaming up with the Artificer and just continue your mission.
Let them argue. Get the DM's attention that you and the Kobold would like to continue the mission, and have your characters just walk away.
When you and the little fella have leveled up and buying flash new gear maybe they'll pay attention. If not, screw 'em.
Personally, i'd be explaining your intention (and frustration) to the DM out of game. I suspect he's just as frustrated and doesn't know how to fix it being a noob. If the 2 of you and DM have extra time, try playing a side adventure - just the 2 of you. Show the DM what it's meant to be like, and i'm sure he won't want to return to the b%*+#fighting.
Once again, good luck.
btw, a Paladin and a kobold as allies? i LOL'd!
The other players all play Magic the Gathering and they think it's acceptable to argue about everything because it's "acceptable" in Magic.
It is? I've played Magic for 13 years now, and arguing about everything for lenghty periods of time is definitely not acceptable among anyone I play with (whether within the confines of MtG or D&D). Maybe your companions simply enjoy the arguing itself :)
What does the arguing around the game table actually consist of? Is it in-character arguing about what to do or where to go, or is it out-of-character arguing about the game, or even about something unrelated to the game?
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I don't think it's acceptable to argue, they on the other hand are convinced that it's the greatest thing ever.
The arguing is both in and out of character. I thought going to a questionably-aligned(we didn't know it's alignment) ogre city was a bad idea in favor of going to a dragon city which we know is good aligned. Just because there was mystical bamboo near the Ogre city.