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So tonight I wrapped up the second to the last encounter.
The party when thugging their way through Eels Ends, pissed off the King of Spiders and barely escaped alive after besting one of his thugs at kniveses.
The story so far has been pretty rail roading, and although the groups paladin needs to be taken down a level, I thought things were going smashing.
Tonight I asked for feedback...
I was told by the players that they had no buy in. The person who they were brought together to kill (Gaidren Lamm) was not only dead, but not even a challenge.
The one reason they came together is dead. I have been trying to make the NPCs colorful and bring them into the story, but none of this seems to be working. Tonight I was told that most characters do not even know why they are still adventuring together. Most of them have no trust in the others, and they all hate the paladin.
I really want to continue on the adventure path, but I am losing the interest of the players to adventure together. I need to do a side adventure before continuing as the books suggests characters be third level before going on to the last adventure bit.
Have any GMs ran into this issue when running this (or any other) adventure path? Can anyone suggest a sub plot or a good module to help fix the party issues before this leg of the adventure closes out?
Like i said I don't want to wimp out on the path now, but if I have disinterested players I do not have a game.
Help
I had a long post that was eaten. Wonderful.
I tied my PCs backstories in with the game itself to give them incentive to play along.
The PCs themselves made an effort to make their characters cooperative with one another. They're incredibly close friends now-- except for the inquisitor and the evil cleric, and they just kind of butt heads every once and a while over moralities. The PCs made sure to do that so that even if the game's substance ran out for them, as long as they were helping their friends, it would make sense. Even the evil character is really invested in the party as his friends-- they're so close that the evil cleric of Norgorber told _Norgorber_ "No" when _Norgorber_ threatened to kill the other party members.
If the players aren't really tied in to the game, it's their fault and the GM's fault. The GM should try to coach the PCs into making characters that will fully fit his setting and his game while taking care to tie the PCs into what's happening-- without those ties, the events of the APs can feel largely impersonal and slightly random. The PCs should take care to make sure the characters they're making will fit the plot of the game and the setting of the game, while supplying the GM with plot hooks and an interesting backstory to fuel the DM's imagination in how he can tie the PCs in to the story. They should be invested in what happens, and motivated by it. They have to buy in to the premise.
If they don't want to buy in to the premise, then you wonder why they're playing an AP in the first place.
EDIT: I also get the feeling they all are disgruntled at the paladin and his player, maybe. Why is that? Are they an all-evil group, or something? Remind them that they don't have to hang out with him if they don't want to-- the other PCs can tell the paladin goodbye. I don't hang out with people I don't like, and neither should they.
I really want to continue on the adventure path, but I am losing the interest of the players to adventure together. I need to do a side adventure before continuing as the books suggests characters be third level before going on to the last adventure bit.
Like i said I don't want to wimp out on the path now, but if I have disinterested players I do not have a game.
First of all ...
or
If it is the players, you have a bigger problem.
If it is the characters, and you and the players working together can't find a work around, one idea would be to make new characters. But ...
Of course, this plan requires that you ...
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Side Question: is it the player of the Paladin that is the problem, or is he/she otherwise fine? (Hopefully it is only that the player is just the type of person who should never play a Pally.)
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I had a long post that was eaten. Wonderful.
I tied my PCs back stories in with the game itself to give them incentive to play along.
EDIT: I also get the feeling they all are disgruntled at the paladin and his player, maybe. Why is that? Are they an all-evil group, or something? Remind them that they don't have to hang out with him if they don't want to-- the other PCs can tell the paladin goodbye. I don't hang out with people I don't like, and neither should they.
The Paladin is a whole other issue. The character is a bully, the toughest in the group that really pushes the envelope between being a Paladin or a Blackguard. The other PCs were ready to let him be gutted by the King of Spiders. Because of the Paladin I have had to fudge rolls and stats in order for him to not just walk through each encounter.
It does get frustrating with the parties non fear of death.The unity issue really has to do with the backgrouds set by the AP. They were all geared to kill of Lamm. Now that he is dead, the characters are wondering WTF, why am I even with these losers. I personally wanted to drop this adventure path, but I am keeping it going for one player who really wants to see this through.
I am thinking of having a talk with the players and allowing them to bring in other PCs who are a bit more invested in the overall plot.
The players still want to play, the characters are not happy with the Paladin, and are being driven away due to the lack of loyalty to each other.
The Paladin is a whole other issue. The character is a bully, the toughest in the group that really pushes the envelope between being a Paladin or a Blackguard.
Warn the player once: Keep acting more like a Blackguard than a Paladin, and your character won't be a Paladin much longer.
Because of the Paladin I have had to fudge rolls and stats in order for him to not just walk through each encounter.
No, you don't. Add more to each encounter.
They were all geared to kill of Lamm. Now that he is dead, the characters are wondering WTF, why am I even with these losers.
What if Lamm isn't dead?
I am thinking of having a talk with the players and allowing them to bring in other PCs who are a bit more invested in the overall plot.
Good idea. PC creation should be a group project.
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First of all ...
... Are the Players disinterrested?
or
... Are the Characters disinterrested? If it is the players, you have a bigger problem.
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Side Question: is it the player of the Paladin that is the problem, or is he/she otherwise fine? (Hopefully it is only that the player is just the type of person who should never play a Pally.)
To answer both, I plan to find another suitable adventure to bring them from 2nd to 3rd level. I like the idea of trying to find something to tie them to the story. Personally I was thinking of having Lamm not dead, but in fact he is a soul stealer that takes the souls of his young slaves. They killed his human skin, but not the creature. Perhaps this creature can be associated with the Arconas?
The player tends to play thick neck, holier than thou characters in general. he is an excellent roleplayer, but chooses to be a control freak in parties. The last few sessions I have been getting eye rolls from the players when he does anything, because it is brutal actions and intimidation all in the name of some sort of Justice.
I CANT EVER GET SPOILER TAGS TO WORK SO READ NO FURTHER IF YOU ARE A PLAYER IN CURSE OF THE CRIMSON THRONE! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
The key to investing the party in CotCT has nothing to do with Gaidren Lamm, that entire story line is met to just bring the PC's together, and have them find the broach. The encouters in the fishery are met to be easy, no one wants to kill off the future hero's of Korvosa on day 1.
The Key to CotCT is Korvosa. The city itself is the most important NPC in the campaign. You have got to get your PC's to invest heavily in Korvosa and her people for this campaign to work.
I am starting my campaign in a few weeks, and as my players muddle through PC generation, I have made them focus their backstories on ties with Korvosa's people.
When they emerge from the fishery and find Korvosa in a state of chaos the first thoughts should be of the safety of something or someone close to them in the city. Have one PC's friend arrested or killed in the riots, a home burned or business looted.
In seven days to the grave at least one or two of my PC are going to loose loved ones to the plague, a girlfriend to the Gray Maidens or some other tragedy.
When old Korvosa burns, so will something or someone dear to the PC's. When the PC's flee it should be reluctantly but for the greater good, they should worry about loved ones left behind. When they return to set things right vengence and justice should be a gray line.
Ok, I have rambled enough, the bottom line is get the PC's to connect with Korvosa, and it will get a lot better.
Peace
Good stuff
If the PCs do not want to protect Korvosa, the AP will fail. Curse of the Crimson Throne and Council of Thieves both have this problem-- if the PCs don't want to save and help everyone and aren't generally good people, the premise of the AP quickly falls apart without strings to tie it in place.
Second Darkness? Could run it with all evil characters. (Hell, in book #5 it seems like it was WRITTEN with evil characters in mind. "Here's a location that, by all means, should be friendly... and a room by room write up with encounters, treasure, and a large extensive map. Play nice!") Legacy of Fire? Could run with N or E characters. RotRL? Same. Kingmaker? Same. Looks like Serpent's Skull is the same-- heck, the plot hook is "buried treasure." That sounds N to me.
Meanwhile, CotCT's (and CoT's) plot hook is "help people."
CotCT almost _requires_ PCs to be good. It requires them to want to be heroes, even if it's begrudgingly or against their better judgment. If they don't, and their PCs can't be arsed to pretend to be the Big Damn Heroes, they're not going to really be playing the AP the writers wrote for them. The AP's motto is practically "As Good As Possible."
The character is a bully, the toughest in the group that really pushes the envelope between being a Paladin or a Blackguard.
Uh, what? If he's "pushing the envelope" between Good and Evil, he's Neutral, and no longer a paladin.
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Basically backing up what the others have said. Before I started running this AP, one of the things I required of each of the players was that they had to, for whatever reasons of their own, genuinely care about their city and/or its people.
Exactly what sort of shenanigans is this paladin getting up to? Is he basically playing Jack Bauer in full-plate or is there something else going on?
If he's playing a paladin more like Judge Dredd than, well, a paladin, you might want to throw in a real paladin as an NPC, to interact with the party for a bit. Bonus points if he gets along perfectly fine with the other players, all while living up to a paladin's ideals. THEN throw in a Hellknight who has to interact with the party for a bit. And let it be plain to see that the Hellknight's behavior seems closer to the party's paladin than the NPC paladin.
Heavy-handed? Yeah, but unfortunately some players simply will not get it through their heads otherwise.
Sorry, bad paladins hit a nerdrage button for me.
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The Key to CotCT is Korvosa. The city itself is the most important NPC in the campaign. You have got to get your PC's to invest heavily in Korvosa and her people for this campaign to work
+1
It is a similar situation to Rise of the Runelords AP, where it is very important, especially for later events in the series, that the characters are attached and invested in the town of Sandpoint. You could run a 0-level adventure in two segments to introduce your players to aspects of the city, have them tour marketplaces, see different sections of the city, through a childs eyes. The first part, they could be 10-11 years old (a bit harder if some are elves, but at least most are invested) and it would be a very short scene, with some pursuit and some childish investigation, but no combat, or perhaps all tour the city type stuff. The second could be when they are about 14-15, things get a little scarier, maybe a wererat in the sewers, or they see someone like Lamm up to no good. The point of these two things is, you can get them to actually play out key parts of their background to the city, including introducing them for the first time as children to mentors or benefactors they may have, etc.
It worked well for our group when we did it, and CoCT seems like a very good setting to use this method again, since there is so much color, variety, and NPCs. Perhaps have a sable marine save one of them as a child, etc, etc. You can script a whole series of events that introduce them to parts of the storyline you really want them to see, all before they roll their first dice as a 1st lvl char. :)
It is a similar situation to Rise of the Runelords AP, where it is very important, especially for later events in the series, that the characters are attached and invested in the town of Sandpoint. You could run a 0-level adventure in two segments to introduce your players to aspects of the city, have them tour marketplaces, see different sections of the city, through a childs eyes. The first part, they could be 10-11 years old (a bit harder if some are elves, but at least most are invested) and it would be a very short scene, with some pursuit and some childish investigation, but no combat, or perhaps all tour the city type stuff. The second could be when they are about 14-15, things get a little scarier, maybe a wererat in the sewers, or they see someone like Lamm up to no good. The point of these two things is, you can get them to actually play out key parts of their background to the city, including introducing them for the first time as children to mentors or benefactors they may have, etc.
It worked well for our group when we did it, and CoCT seems like a very good setting to use this method again, since there is so much color, variety, and NPCs. Perhaps have a sable marine save one of them as a child, etc, etc. You can script a whole series of events that introduce them to parts of the storyline you really want them to see, all before they roll their first dice as a 1st lvl char. :)
Someone is s fan of the Fable series, apparently.
Wait, you got a player who insists on always playing overbearing, spotlight hogging bully? And the other players have put up with that for how long?
CotCT almost _requires_ PCs to be good. It requires them to want to be heroes, even if it's begrudgingly or against their better judgment. If they don't, and their PCs can't be arsed to pretend to be the Big Damn Heroes, they're not going to really be playing the AP the writers wrote for them. The AP's motto is practically "As Good As Possible."
As written all of the AP's I have read/DM begin with the premise that the players have good intentions. I think CoCT gives a LE PC a good opportunity to find the motivations to participate in the AP, working the Hellknight angle.
Second Darkness? Could run it with all evil characters.
I disagree here Ice Titan. I am playing a Dwarven Ftr/Rog/Liberator in this AP now, and we are on the last encounter to finish it, and truthfully, it is true-blue "Good" AP of them all. The PCs put it all on the line to save Kyonin, well at the same time being manipulated politically by the the queen, and a broken Winter Council who does everything to prevent them from succeeding. Of course running this for evil PC gives them great opportunities to build power bases in Riddleport, infiltarte the Winter Council, build alliances with the drow etc. But, as written the motivation to help Kyonin for anyone not playing an Elven PC IMHO is simply out of the kindness of their heart.
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The advice here has been priceless. Kudos to this forum and thank you to everyone.
I am going to spend some time within the story getting the characters move involved in the story. The Paladin needs humility and a spanking from his God to make sure he stays on the straight and narrow. I LOVE the idea of putting in an NPC Paladin to "show him how its done".
The focus of the short run to get them to level 3 is going to involve a few things (most ideas were presented here)
1. The Paladin pissed off the King of Spiders, there will be retribution
2. The Queen must have heard of the PCs bungling by now, Faceless men might be deployed
3. The Ghost of the Harrowed Deck's owner can definitely come to them in dreams
4.Find character hooks to make it more personal
5. Perhaps Gaidren Lamm is not dead, perhaps the old man they killed was not him at all.
So any feedback on some of the hooks I plan to use?
I disagree here Ice Titan. I am playing a Dwarven Ftr/Rog/Liberator in this AP now, and we are on the last encounter to finish it, and truthfully, it is true-blue "Good" AP of them all. The PCs put it all on the line to save Kyonin, well at the same time being manipulated politically by the the queen, and a broken Winter Council who does everything to prevent them from succeeding. Of course running this for evil PC gives them great opportunities to build power bases in Riddleport, infiltarte the Winter Council, build alliances with the drow etc. But, as written the motivation to help Kyonin for anyone not playing an Elven PC IMHO is simply out of the kindness of their heart.
Second Darkness? Could run it with all evil characters.
I, on the other hand, see a lot of opportunity for "revenge" or "profit" to be used as an excuse to keep the evil party moving from one place to the other-- in fact, "revenge" sounds like the order of the day for #1, #5, #4 and "profit" sounds like a good #4, #6, #1, #3 and #2. At the end, the PCs go to finish off the final boss out of spite and anger and for another sizable paycheck. They're not OMG LOLE VIL but they're not in it out of the good of their heart-- they're in it for the money, the vengeance and the violence.
That's at least what I see. But is an all-evil party going to go out of their way to help a city struck by plague, to rescue a holy sword from an evil citadel or salvage the relations between the Korvosans and the Shoanti? Doubtful. Would an all-evil party even _return Queen Illeosa's brooch_ at the end of Part 1 of Edge of Anarchy? It just can't work, at least, for me.
The advice here has been priceless. Kudos to this forum and thank you to everyone.
I am going to spend some time within the story getting the characters move involved in the story. The Paladin needs humility and a spanking from his God to make sure he stays on the straight and narrow. I LOVE the idea of putting in an NPC Paladin to "show him how its done".
The focus of the short run to get them to level 3 is going to involve a few things (most ideas were presented here)
1. The Paladin pissed off the King of Spiders, there will be retribution
2. The Queen must have heard of the PCs bungling by now, Faceless men might be deployed
3. The Ghost of the Harrowed Deck's owner can definitely come to them in dreams
4.Find character hooks to make it more personal
5. Perhaps Gaidren Lamm is not dead, perhaps the old man they killed was not him at all.So any feedback on some of the hooks I plan to use?
All of those sound good. #2 may be too much-- she's like level 2 now, but she has the Red Mantis at her beck and call pretty soon. You know; the Red Mantis from Crown of Fangs (lv17) and History of Ashes (lv14). They're working with her from the moment she hires them. I don't think the PCs could even stand a chance against the mook Red Mantis (lv7) who I consider to be the definition of "faceless mook/flankbot."
IMO, the Queen shouldn't attack the PCs outright until maybe Escape from Old Korvosa, where the PCs can reliably get away from some mook hit squads and then get on with investigating Old Korvosa and leaving to the Cinderlands. Up until she truly finds her backbone in EfoK, it's safe subtle political moves and derogatory inferences in her speeches. Then when she's higher level than them, she brings out the mooks to make direct attacks.
#3-- I just had Zellara (in my game, Zellargo) have telepathy so I can voice him when I want to.
#5-- I had Gaedren Lamm turn out to be a fall boy. The Arkonas used wands of modify memory on one of the PCs to make him forget he saw the murder of his mother, and then set up evidence with the Korvosan Guard and bribed some key witnesses to have it blamed on Lamm. Everything else? He did it. But that one murder kept Lamm in the forefront and then later kept my PC strung along with trying to figure out who it really was who killed his mother. But that's just what I did. >>
Good luck!
2. The Queen must have heard of the PCs bungling by now, Faceless men might be deployed
What, you gonna import them from Braavos? <rimshot>
The advice here has been priceless. Kudos to this forum and thank you to everyone.
I am going to spend some time within the story getting the characters move involved in the story. The Paladin needs humility and a spanking from his God to make sure he stays on the straight and narrow. I LOVE the idea of putting in an NPC Paladin to "show him how its done".
The focus of the short run to get them to level 3 is going to involve a few things (most ideas were presented here)
1. The Paladin pissed off the King of Spiders, there will be retribution
2. The Queen must have heard of the PCs bungling by now, Faceless men might be deployed
3. The Ghost of the Harrowed Deck's owner can definitely come to them in dreams
4.Find character hooks to make it more personal
5. Perhaps Gaidren Lamm is not dead, perhaps the old man they killed was not him at all.So any feedback on some of the hooks I plan to use?
I agree with Ice Titan, hold off on getting the queen involved she'll get her props. If you decide to brign Gaidren back I suggest doing it late in the campaign. With his street knowledge he would make a great informant for the Queen/Gray Maidens as they battle the rebels while the PC's are off in the Cinderlands/Scarwall. Maybe he ferrets out a loved one or NPC ally for the PC's to rescue when they return.
I am really trying to move away from playing the "dream card" in my games as a hook / re-railer; just to cliche. I think Zeldars, however makes a great re-railer by having her make an actual apperance. It works better if you can get the PC's to actualy call her. Have her deliver her "hint" as part of a harrow reading. Just be careful not to let it become a crutch of the PC's in their investigations.
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I've been fortunate that a couple of my players had backgrounds with a strong tie to the city. I have worked to keep it reinforced as well as seed in elements that will contribute to the future of the AP as well (they're currently in 7 Days and about to raid the hospice.
1) The dagger that Verik had... it formed an alliance with the player who won the item, posing as an intelligent weapon. It has since occupied itself on keeping Vimanda updated on what the group is doing, and using its suggestion to steer people towards or away from the wielder.
2) One of Lamm's Lambs was about at the age of being done away with. She had befriended the sister of one of the players, who begged her brother to let her new friend come back with them. He agreed (after ensuring all the silver was hidden), and later sponsored the girl's application to join the newly forming Grey Maidens.
3) A player's father had gone missing. I turned this into a mini dungeon crawl through the Vaults, where I introduced a ranger with wererats as a favoured enemy. He made a practice of maiming any he came across and leaving them for the derro to steal and experiment on. While this didn't tie them to the city per se, it brought an interesting moral question to the table which invested the players in discussing what was better for the city.
4) Melyia (Vimanda's alias) befriended and eventually seduced a player. She convinced him to move his household (including his sister) into the Arkona estate where they'd be safer from the plague.
5) A bard that another player befriended came to him and asked if he could find her friend who had disappeared while performing for an old noble family. This was a lead in to a published module "Shut In" which helped bridge some xp gap.
Ultimately, the pacing especially in EoA seemed at times to be very rushed. But the key is to give them encounters and experiences within the city to tug at them and make them think of it as home. To my great benefit, the couple of players I haven't really hooked yet are there to play with friends and they're pretty willing to just go along with the flow. I still want to hook them in, but so far they're resisting...
Luckily my party is trying to keep together altough it is made harder by the disharmonies between the Varisian low-life Sorcerer and the noble half-elf Ranger. Though it is fun to listen to them bickering like an old couple, sometimes it is hard to keep them from flying at each other's throat. I was very impressed when our tongue-tied fighter intervened and took the Ranger aside to have a word with her.
But the best thing is that they are so good at making enemies!
First, they handed over Hookshanks the Gnome to a bunch of Thugs with the instruction to make his life miserable and take their time with it, e.g torture him slowly to death.
Hookshanks had his reprise as a wight, almost killing the Sorcerer (4 negative Levels).
They had a run-in with 3 assassins hired by the Arkonas, to get rid of the meddling nuisances. The party barely escaped, not learning their lesson... not even when they found out a demon (sent with regards from the Palace) had almost vandalised their precious hideout.
- They had spread rumours that they knew Trinia was not the assassin and they had the evidence to prove it... along with their adress. (they called it a trap.)
Next thing you know, they went to the Chelaxian ambassador to blackmail him with papers found on board the House of Clouds.
Vreeg (a mad halfling Necromancer named Virreg in my story) had fled the encounter after having disabled the whole party. Two members swore a sacred oath to Pharasma they'd bring him an Rolth down.
Nicest plot development yet: the sorcerer's player has mentioned lost love from his youth in his background story. A Tian girl who had vanished without a trace some years ago.
Meanwhile he has proposed to a young girl the party rescued from a rampaging Otyugh, celebration and all.
What a surprise when the party finally visited Orsini's to check on Trinia and found out Orsini's new pupil is a daring young Tian woman who even posed as the Blackjack during the fake Trinia's mock execution!
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I personally love this AP but it does not scale well with Pathfinder characters vs. 3.5(easily corrected by calculating the difference in CR and giving extra levels to most NPCs), and the sketchy timeline and mechanism for giving quests makes it all very railroady to some players.
My suggestion, whether or not the group is creating new characters: switch to a quest-board system similar to the Kingmaker AP. Instead of having the players summoned to the field marshal for practically every quest, create something like a local jobs board so the players can choose the order in which they handle the quests. If you're using 3.5, there could be some issues, but in Pathfinder the XP is based on CR so the only thing that might change is how challenging some of the encounters are.
For the quests that are tied to particular NPCs, rather that Cressida and the city guard, give each quest an extra plot hook or two and scatter them across the players' path, let them think every npc is a potential quest.
Lastly, emphasize the reward for every quest they find via npcs or the job board. Unless they're all independently wealthy and ready to retire, they need money as much as adventure.
I personally love this AP but it does not scale well with Pathfinder characters vs. 3.5(easily corrected by calculating the difference in CR and giving extra levels to most NPCs), and the sketchy timeline and mechanism for giving quests makes it all very railroady to some players.
There are conversions up to Skeletons of Scarwall available by Steev42 in this thread here.
I don't know how far along you are, but be careful with the Rakshasas. They are a tough nut to crack if run as Pathfinder monsters. I am seriously considering using Bahor and Vimanda in their 3.5 versions, since their conversions are almost immune to spells by 8th level characters due to high spell resistance and very difficult to hit and damage if the party isn't all wearing piercing good weapons. Which are difficult to come by if you don't have them already when in the Vivified Labyrinth.