The rules for magical item creation don't seem quite clear to me... the rules state that in order to craft a scroll or wand or whatever, you need to have "access to the spell" you wish to put into the item. Does that mean that a sorcerer could use a scroll or a wand to meet that criteria for spells he does not know but are on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list and then craft his own wands and scrolls, or even other magical items? What about other classes, could a rogue use a scroll and the Use Magic Device skill to create his own wands, scrolls or wondrous items?
My group is kinda split on this... I would argue that in order to create an item which duplicates a spell or spell-effect, you need to know that spell intimately, i.e. it needs to be part of your daily casting repertoire, and you need to have memorized it (for those who memorize spells anyway) so you can actually CAST the spell during the item creation process. But I've heard some who say all you need is a scroll of that spell, and if you have the Craft Wand feat and enough gold, you can cast the spell from the scroll and create a wand of that spell in its stead.
I need a ruling on this, which scenario is true?
The rules for magical item creation don't seem quite clear to me... the rules state that in order to craft a scroll or wand or whatever, you need to have "access to the spell" you wish to put into the item. Does that mean that a sorcerer could use a scroll or a wand to meet that criteria for spells he does not know but are on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list and then craft his own wands and scrolls, or even other magical items?
Yes, but the scroll would be used and charge(s) of the wand would be used.
What about other classes, could a rogue use a scroll and the Use Magic Device skill to create his own wands, scrolls or wondrous items?
As long as he met the other criterion (including caster level, if any is required).
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has
prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a
sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or
spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces
the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation
process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or
one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects
is used to supply a prerequisite.
Bold mine.
Or you could just skip the spell alltogether for most items. Doing so adds +5 to the final DC. Note that this is not possible for "spell-trigger" or "spell-completion" items, which include scrolls and wands, so for your specific question, casting the spell is required. But for almost all other magic items it is not.
What about other classes, could a rogue use a scroll and the Use Magic Device skill to create his own wands, scrolls or wondrous items?As long as he met the other criterion (including caster level, if any is required).
Just to clarify, caster level is almost never required. It is a "special requirement" for magic weapons and armor, and a few items specifically list caster level as a requirement in the item's description, but for all other items, it isn't even a requirement at all.
I would argue that in order to create an item which duplicates a spell or spell-effect, you need to know that spell intimately, i.e. it needs to be part of your daily casting repertoire, and you need to have memorized it (for those who memorize spells anyway) so you can actually CAST the spell during the item creation process.
This is true only of spell-trigger and spell-completion items. Note the last sentence
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
But I've heard some who say all you need is a scroll of that spell, and if you have the Craft Wand feat and enough gold, you can cast the spell from the scroll and create a wand of that spell in its stead.
This is true. Note that the same rulebook quote I provided above applies here too: "access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed". This means that the guy creating the wand doesn't need to cast the spell; he can use an item (scrolls, another wand, or something else) or another caster (so a wizard could create a wand of Cure Light Wounds by inviting a cleric to come cast the spell for him).
Thanks, all... that's pretty much exactly what I needed to have pointed out. Gracias!
In a similar vein, do magic arms and armor have a specific caster lvl requisite or is it merely that you need to be able to cast the spell in question? Ex. Shifter's Sorrow lists construction requirements as; Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Baleful Polymorph, and 6780 gp (No CL requirement listed unlike crafting a construct where it is specifically stated). Baleful Polymorph is a 5th level spell, so 9th level caster, but the weapon itself has a CL 15th. Does the weapons caster level refer to a prerequisite or merely to how it strongly it will detect and in regards to any saving throw it might have to make.
Seqway into UMD I know that I can craft Magical weapons using a scroll and i can use a scroll higher than my caster lvl by succeeding on a UMD of 20+CL so DC 29 in this case. By using some of the alternative class features and favored class bonuses and racial features from the APG I can create a 7th level rogue with a base UMD of 27(Side note, if I take the same rogue to 10th his UMD jumps to 40), assuming I have the appropriate scroll, gp, and feats can I craft the Shifter's Sorrow?
Now I fully recognize this as optimizing to the Nth degree but does it work?
So the only real Requirement is the Feats for making items? Thats really dumb in my opinion. :S
I agree that doesn't make sense. So then assuming the weapon CL is really a craft requirement, can you UMD that as well? Is CL considered a class feature of a wizard or sorcerer or cleric? If so I could still at level 7 emulate a CL 15 with a seperate UMD check of 35, harder as I'm working off a lesser UMD score for that than for activating scrolls but still a base 20, or even pushing it to the 10th level version a UMD base of 29 for that check.
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Feats are required, and spells are required for spell-completion/trigger items.
Other prerequisites may be avoided by adding +5 to the DC for *each* item. That effectively puts more requirements for most people, as the odds of making the item (particularly the odds of automatically making the item and not getting a cursed one) get pretty low pretty fast.
Note: I know people have quoted the text, but to say it 'out loud', providing the spell via scroll or wand is required for each and every day of the item creation. So a 1st level wand would only take a single scroll, but a 2nd level spell wand would take 5 scrolls, and a 4th level wand would take 21 scrolls (almost not worth the wand at that point).
And no, there is no provision for using UMD to meet prerequisites (or requirements). You certainly can use it to provide a spell from an item - the item is meeting the prerequisite, not the UMD.
Note that while CL is not (and I hate this) a requirement unless specifically stated it is in the item description, it is a requirement for adding +'s to magical equipment. That is, if you don't have the caster level required to make a +3 weapon, you can't do it. If I read that right, it's not even 'can add +5 to do it', it's just not allowed. In other words, the minimum caster level for enhancement bonuses is not a requirement (in the vein of a requirement as in having a spell is for a wonderous item). It is instead a flat out 'must be level Blah or higher or you can't craft it' requirement.
The +5 per each item is rather daunting if you consider that it'll take at least a week and so that's minimum +35 if you lack the spell(if i'm reading you right), but then you could just choose to make daily checks instead so its alwasy just a +5 you just have better odds of losing some material due to exceptionally low rolls.
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Okay, I'm a little confused, and I think others are as well.
Lets try an example (well, three or four). I'm going to post them and let someone who knows how this works answer them. I do have some idea of how things work - enough to know what to ask (and that I need to), but not enough to answer questions. Feel free to change, add, or elaborate as would benefit the examples.
1) A third-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat is trying to create an amulet of natural armor +1.
What does he need, at the very minimum, besides the feat (stated in the requirements), the caster level (stated in the requirements), and the item's base cost?
What else is "required" and how can he get around each requirement? (please include totals).
What's the total cost to create, how does it break down? What's the total time, and how does it break down? How many skill/other checks are needed, when do they happen, why do they happen, whats the DC, how was that determined, and what happens if each given check fails?
2) A third-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat is trying to create a bag of holding type 1.
What does he need, at the very minimum, besides the feat (stated in the requirements) and the item's base cost?
What else is "required" and how can he get around each requirement? (please include totals).
What's the total cost to create, how does it break down? What's the total time, and how does it break down? How many skill/other checks are needed, when do they happen, why do they happen, whats the DC, how was that determined, and what happens if each given check fails?
3) A third-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat is trying to create an amulet of natural armor +2.
Can he do it, or does he fail? Why? How is this different from "2)"? When does he fail, and what happens?
4) An eleventh-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Construct is trying to create a Wood Golem.
What does he need, at the very minimum, besides the feat (stated in the requirements) and the item's base cost?
What else is "required" and how can he get around each requirement? (please include totals).
How does the skill listed in the creation rules for this golem relate to the Item Creation process?
What's the total cost to create, how does it break down? What's the total time, and how does it break down? How many skill/other checks are needed, when do they happen, why do they happen, whats the DC, how was that determined, and what happens if each given check fails?
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Okay, I'm a little confused, and I think others are as well.
1) A third-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat is trying to create an amulet of natural armor +1.
What does he need, at the very minimum, besides the feat (stated in the requirements), the caster level (stated in the requirements), and the item's base cost?
What else is "required" and how can he get around each requirement? (please include totals).
What's the total cost to create, how does it break down? What's the total time, and how does it break down? How many skill/other checks are needed, when do they happen, why do they happen, whats the DC, how was that determined, and what happens if each given check fails?
A) He needs to be at least 3rd level.
B) He needs 1,000GP in materials.C) He needs Ranks in Spellcraft.
D) He needs to have the Wondrous Item Creation feat.
E) The base DC to make the item is 5 + Caster Level he chooses (He can set any caster level from 3 to his cater level). Assume he's 5th, he can set it to 5th. Why does it matter? Higher CL is harder to make, but it is more resistant to damage.
F) Since he probably doesn't have access to barkskin, add +5 to DC.
So, if he takes the default CL (5th), then the DC is 15. It takes 2 days to work on it (2,000gp/1,000). At the end of two days, he makes a Spellcraft check (DC 15). More than likely, he takes 10 on it and passes it. If he rolls and rolls a 1, he creates a cursed item more than likely.