I'm converting a 10th lvl Rogue to Pathfinder and applying the extra feat. Looking at Two weapon fighting it seems that if I flank an opponent then on a full attack I get three attacks, all with bonus sneak damage. If I also take the rogue ability of Opportunist then I have the potential of four attacks per round all with sneak attack, that's a potential of +20D6 per round!
Have I got that right? It seems excessive when the rogue is averaging 70pts damage before applying any weapon or strength bonuses. I realise all the attacks have to hit for this to happen, but low AC are toast.
Cheers,
Steve
You are correct. It sounds impressive, but remember rogues are a glass cannon -- they can only handle so much time in the front lines of combat.
I realise all the attacks have to hit for this to happen, but low AC are toast.
Cheers,
Steve
are you allowed 3.5 material? If so, consider getting the Sudden Leap Boost and Leaping Dragon Stance (Tome of Battle). Grab yourself a pair of Claws of the Leopard, IIRC or another way to get pounce.
Then charge (jumping over difficult terrain and tumbling through threatened squares) - full (sneak) attack - jump 10ft away as a swift action. That way, you won't be subject to full attacks yourself next turn. Rinse and Repeat.
Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook) is a great feat for this tactic.
Then charge (jumping over difficult terrain and tumbling through threatened squares) - full (sneak) attack - jump 10ft away as a swift action. That way, you won't be subject to full attacks yourself next turn. Rinse and Repeat.
Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook) is a great feat for this tactic.
Too bad tumbling through threatened squares is no longer a trivial check. In fact I've found that you fail it more often than not when fighting encounters at or above your CR. Otherwise that tactic would be one heck of a way to play a rogue!
Nothing likes to be hurt. If any monster - anything at all - is getting hurt by two sources, but one is hurting it more than the other one, that monster will deal with the most painful source first. That's not picking on the rogue; it's simply playing the monster like it cares about its own survival.
So the simplest way to handle the TWF multi-attacking sneak-attacking rogue is to plaster him all over the landscape.
He wants to tumble behind the giant to sneak attack him? Fine, that puts him in Reach of 4 other giants who don't like what he just did to their buddy George. They get multiple attacks too. And probably have some flanking. When that rogue takes 8 hits for giantish damage, he'll find out that d8 are just not big enough.
When that isn't practical, have the enemies move out of flanking. Consider this:
R
M
F
That simple diagram has a rogue(R) and a fighter(F) flanking a monster(M). Assuming the monster surives that first round, it moves like this:
RM
.
F
That's a simple 5' free move that doesn't provoke and it pounds on the rogue with everything it has (because, as you say, the rogue does more damage than any other PC). Now, that won't prevent the fighter and the rogue from both making the same diagonal move and re-establishing flanking, but consider that if this monster is not alone, it could be leading the two of them farther away from their supporting spellcasters, leaving the casters exposed or leaving the rogue and fighter farther away from help.
And if the monster can couple that with a trip first, preferably against the high-damaging rogue, then that rogue will need a move action to stand up and then will have to move into position - no multiple sneak-attacking this round. Then trip him again (especially if you can trip and injure, like say, even a simple wolf can do).
Finally, use terrain. If there is a wall, tree, rock, ciff, whatever, have the monster put its back to it. Yeah, a mere animal or zombie or giant slug or other midnless/unintelligent critter won't think of those tactics, but everything else will. And really, how many mindless encounters do you have when rogues are high enough level to dish out multiple attacks? This is even more fun when the clever defender has a concealed trap, and maneuvers so that the rogue steps right into the trap, especially if it's a deep pit. With spikes. And poison gas. And a few ghouls down there to paralyze the poisoned, impaled rogue. OK, maybe a bit much, but you get the idea.
In the end, even though that rogue may get multiple attacks, and even though on paper they can do "42d6 in two rounds!", there should almost never be a battle where the enemies stand still and let the rogue do that. Either they stay mobile and never give the rogue a chance to make full-attacks, limiting him to at most one sneak attack per round because he has to keep moving into position, or they cluster quite nicely and punish the rogue severely for putting himself in their midst, or they use terrain to put themselves into defensible positions in which they cannot be flanked.
Or all of the above.
(Not all the time - let the poor rogue have his fun once in a while).
you roll lots of dice, but your damage is nothing special. level 10, well most commonly used CR appropriate monsters can 1 round you. cloud giant is a good example. with power attack and a gargantuan greatsword, (which they should do.) it can 2 hit you, and the 3rd hit disintigrates your corpse and gear into powder. monsters technically aren't restricted to the feat and gear choices in thier stat block. nor should they be.
Rogues out damaging fighters? It's less likely than you think!
it's technically 2HW fighters that outdamage TWF rogues. optimizing your rogue's defenses is a futile effort. i guess there is spring attack/vital strike route and a 2 level dip in shadowdancer. but that can be countered by readied actions.
making an effective 2WF rogue requires access to a 3.5. splatbook called champions of ruin and a feat called craven. it adds your rogue level to sneak attack damage but gives you a -2 to will saves vs. fear. this feat alone will account for almost a whole 3rd of your dpr. there is also the penetrating strike ability in dungeonscape. another 3.5. splatbook. these are must haves for 2WF rogues. also, try hunting for a dexterity to damage with finesse weapons feat and propose it to your dm. (hopefully instead of strength) these options require a rather lenient dm and are useless should you end up with a total grognard like i did multiple times before.
I understand there are ways to counter this, but the problem occurs when the other party members don't have the same damage output/capability, maybe they are not as "optimised". If the DM must counter this with harder opponents, higher CR/AC/hit points then what can they do? There's less fun for them and that's no fun for everyone.Your example, Shuriken Nekogami, is a good one, if that monster is a challenge for an optimised TWF/sneak attacking rogue then what can non-damage-output-optimised characters do about it? And/or if I go the other way with feats like Impr. trip what can I do about it? What's the CMD for that? Can it even be tripped as it's more than one size catagory larger?
Maybe I should start a new thread in the Advice section on optimising defense/not damage on a 10th lvl rogue ;)
Cheers
My point was that even if this happens, it mostly only happens in theory. Sure, in theory, the rogue can do 42d6 damage in two rounds. But in practice, he almost never gets two rounds to dish out full-attacks.
You do realize that full-attacks are the key, right? No matter what you do or how you do it, if you are able to get more than one attack by any means (high BAB, Haste, Speed, TWF, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, whatever), you absolutely must take a full attack to use them. If you do not take a full attack, then you only get one attack. Never more than one.
So yeah, on theory, that rogue might do 42d6 damage in two rounds. But in practice, it usually goes like this:
Round 1: The giants are 30' away.
Fighter: Moves up to a giant and swings.
Rogue: Moves up to a giant and swings - he doesn't have enough movement to get behind any giants, so no flanking yet. He does 1d6 damage.
Giants: mostly pound the fighter since he probably did a lot more damage (bigger weapon, more STR, Weapon Specialization).
Cleric: Casts some spell, maybe a little healing for the fighter.
Round 2:
Fighter: Attacks a giant.
Rogue: Moves 10 feet to get behind a giant. He now has flanking but only one sneak attack because he had to move this round. He does 7d6 damage.
Giants: They see that rogue do a ton of damage ripping out their buddy's kidney, so most of them pound on rogue. Because of his low AC he takes quite a few hits. Because of his low HP, he's a little worried.
Cleric: Wants to heal the rogue but he's too far away - running in there with a healing spell is suicide.
Round 3:
Fighter: Attacks a giant.
Rogue: Aha! it's the 3rd round and now he can unload. He attacks the Giant 3 times, dealing 7d6 each hit! Except, he kills the giant on the first hit because he and the fighter have been damaging that giant a lot. He still has two attacks now, but he isn't flanking any of the other giants, so he attacks two times for normal damage. He does 9d6 damage.
giants: Pound the rogue. He killed Fritz and they don't like that. Rogue is nearly dead.
Cleric: Still can't heal rogue.
Round 4:
Fighter: Attacks a giant.
Rogue: Nearly dead, he doesn't attack anything. Instead, he tumbles away from the giants to get near the cleric for healing.
Giants: Rembembering Fritz, they follow the rogue, maybe even provoking an AoO from the fighter. They kill the rogue.
Cleric: Fortunately he has a Breath of Life spell and he saves the rogue.
Round 5:
Fighter: attacks a giant.
Rogue: Standing up will provoke and he has about 2 HP, so he plays dead.
Giants: Pound on that cleric since he tried to save the guy who killed Fritz.
Cleric: Channels energy to heal all three PCs.
Etc.
There you have 5 rounds. The Rogue did not do 42d6 damage every two rounds (for a total of 105d6). Not even close. He did 11d6 damage. I am sure the fighter did at least 2x that, probably 3x that much damage in those 5 rounds.
Does every battle go like this? Absolutely not. But many of them can go exactly like this. Still others can and do use many of the things I described in my previous post.
It's not even mean or unfair. I don't think this description was even a little unfair to the rogue - if a rogue did these things battling giants, I wouldn't bat an eye if the giants responded the way I described it, even if I were playing that rogue.
So, yeah, in theory the rogue should have done 105d6 damage in those 5 rounds, but in practice, he only did 11d6, and he became a drain on the cleric's resources as well.
A wise man once said:
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is. - Yogi Berra.
Sure there are ways to deal with this but as the other characters are not optimised to deal huge damage, and probably will never be, this high damage rogue causes a problem. Either the DM must increase the threat level of the monsters, or find a way to negate sneak attack damage (slimes, pit traps) to maintain the status quo, I would rather nerf my character to maintain the balance.
So as a Noob to Pathfinder what's a good Rogue build that isn't looking for big sneak attack damage?
Orig 3.x character
8th Rogue/2nd fighter - dipping to get extra feats - now changing to Pathfinder those feats can be absorbed as rogue abilities.
So can either have 10th rogue - choose one new Feat and one tenth lvl rogue ability - was TWF and Opportunist
or
8th/2nd rogue fighter, gets three feats (as Pathfinder rogue abilities effective grant two feats already obtained under 3.x), was TWF, Impr TWF, TWdefense
Current feats
dodge, mobiliy, spring attack, exotic weapon prof (spiked chain), combat reflexes, weapon finesse.We haven't got to using CMB stuff, at this level are trp/disarm feats really useful? The Giants described above don't sound like it's possible to disarm them or trip them. Are the minor/major magic abilities worthwhile, then the dispelling strike? Are the DC's too high to really acheive?
Cheers,
Steve
As a rogue at 10th level, combat manuevers are nearly pointless. You would need to invest alot to even have a chance to succeed against higher level enemies.
As blake said, in bursts the rogue can do alot of damage, but in the long run he doesnt end up doing as much. But if you are really concerned about it you could try not going 2 weapon fighting (the most optimal route for sneak attack). You could even try out the duelist class. Its generally suboptimal but pretty fun and since optimization isnt your goal, a rogue/duelist using a rapier should work out nicely for you.
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Most effective rogue I ever saw was a rogue/shadow dancer with a few splat feats. He used shadow dancer for a shadow to flank for him. He burned a few rokugan feats to add int to initiative, and to improve his sneak attack. He was a strength-based two-weapon fighter, just enough dex for the feats, and he fought with two kukris. I think he skipped the last twf feat, greater i think it was.
He got additional sa dice fighting in shadows, and for scoring hits on enemies, and he basically walked around all day with deeper darkness on himself.
That build was scary.
And the character was super neurotic :p Lots of fun to watch.
Of course, a couple light spells, and it was about as effective as a wet rag until the darkness was restored :P
Blake is dead on what my experience with both playing and DMing for rogues has been. They get to unload totally only on rare occasions and have big difficulties taking hits. Also the fact that most fighters will be right there with them in damage, optimized fighters will be miles ahead (archery and optimized sword and board), while paladins, rangers and barbarians will be right on their heels. I wouldnt hold my rogue back in the least, you're just gimping your fun.
I always found the damage a bit much, it being a glass cannon isn't really making it better. A party that can deal damage but not take it, just isn't well balanced.
For your rogue I'd definately consider crippling strike, it reduces the hit and damage capability of strong foes, which effectively add some 'defensive' benefits for you and the rest of the party. Combined with a ray of enfeeblement you might be able to take down a fair number of enemies without reducing hitpoints to below 0.
I advise you to look for options and ways to cover your ass, use magic device is always nice to diversify options.
So as a Noob to Pathfinder what's a good Rogue build that isn't looking for big sneak attack damage?
Well, there's Improved Initiative. If you can use Player's Handbook 2, there are a couple of feats that help with flanking that my single weapon rogue uses (Vexing Flanker gives a +4 when flanking instead of a +2; and Adaptable Flanker allows flanking from any adjacent square in addition to the one you are in).
From Pathfinder Core, Wind Stance might help you. Fleet, because more speed is almost always helpful. I am going to throw Improved Unarmed Strike out there because I don't know your concept and it could be interesting to have a rogue with that ability. Nimble Moves and its successor Acrobatic Steps could be useful if you run into a lot of difficult terrain.
Those are ones I would consider if I was worried about TWF making me that much better than the rest of the party. Some people think they aren't great, but I also like the +2 to two skills feats for certain concepts. (My aforementioned 3.5 rogue has Investigator.)
AJ
8th/2nd rogue fighter, gets three feats (as Pathfinder rogue abilities effective grant two feats already obtained under 3.x), was TWF, Impr TWF, TWdefense
Current feats
dodge, mobiliy, spring attack, exotic weapon prof (spiked chain), combat reflexes, weapon finesse.
Your current build is the exact opposite of a TWF build. And IMO, your build is superior for a rogue. If you go with the TWF feat chain, you would want a total rebuild from 1st level, because if you're doing Spring Attack, you'll never be using TWF, and vice versa. Either way, if you start going TWF now, you've got useless feats eating up space on your character sheet. At this point, you shouldn't even be CONSIDERING TWF unless you're going to rebuild the character completely.
You want to be a better spring-attacker. Take a couple slots of Fleet. To be a better chain fighter, bump up your strength to at least 13 (if it's not already) and take Power Attack (-2 attack, +6 damage). That gives you the speed and reach to get nearly anywhere on the battlefield you want.