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Just keep in mind that this situation is the perfect storm for a rogue.

If you compare it to a level 10 Two handed fighter that is optimized the damage is less on average i believe.

Like DM_blake said the monsters (DM) will need to be pretty dumb to let the rogues burst damage go unnoticed.

I have had my regrets with my TWF rogue built this way. Its nice to drop the hammer from time to time but when the BBEG smashes me to -5 hp in one hit since i stung his behind i really wish i tooled him differently.

Slacker2010 wrote:

Thanks for the break down. I am just surprised the need for a 1 level dip in cleric when at a glance your party seems to have a lot of healing from numerous sources.

But i am not the Dm nor a player so its just me being a skeptic. Do what works. Also that variant seems to fit so giver.

Uhm, 2 clerics and a pally already?

Straight fighter all the way imo. I am surprised you even dipped 1 level in cleric.

unless the DM is purposely beating the snot out of you i can't see a reason to keep going cleric when you have 2.5 already.

edit: Honestly with a second read i am not sure why you even need a pure tank but thats just me. The pally and ranger should be able to do something in combat. One the clerics could have dumped a feat for heavy armour.

I am just being a skeptic here but it seems the DM is just raising the difficulty for giggles and to make you squirm but it resulted in the need of a pure fighter which was then changed to ANOTHER cleric hybrid fighter. Even the ranger has some cleric dipped in there.

Wow, instant kill would be wild.

But thanks for the responses. We like the idea of a natural 20 on a critical increasing the multiplier by one. Adds a little reward for rolling a 20 at the right time.

On the topic of criticals what happens when you roll a 20 when confirming a crit for RAW?

I think my group has houseruled it increases the multiplier by one but i am curious if this is actually RAW (i have a feeling it isnt).

We don't include a 19 with a longsword though for increasing the crit multiplier.

My dm rules as such:

Normal torches get drowned out by darkness (like the spell description). The level 0 spell light gets drowned out by it as well since its a lower level spell.

Continual flame increases the light by one level since they are equal level spells (although continual flame just simulates a torch).

Daylight increases the light level by one UNLESS its cast as a counter ie: both darkness and daylight disappear when cast this way.

As for darkness on a bright sunny day i am not sure. We have never came across someone that casts darkness when they aren't in an already dark area but i bet it would just function the same since the sun isn't magical.

As for sunrods and the like they get drowned out since they just simulate the light spell which is too low level to counter darkness.

I believe this is pretty close to RAW if i am not mistaken. We do agree that darkness is powerful though for a level 2 spell thats for sure.

Possible 6 players and 32 point buy?

Better jack that CR up to the skies.

Imo 25 point buy with 6 people is a balancing act. 32 is going to require some shoveling on the cr to get things balanced.

Besides that its a pretty easy conversion to PF. Just be up to speed with the new mechanics (especially grapple) and how some feats operate.

Sounds like a poor my player. I have a glass cannon like rogue i am playing (10 con but 18 dex + TWF and Finesse) and i just follow my paladin partner around. He took improved feint to help me out so if i am not flanking i better be dead or about to die from tumbling through threatened squares and failing.

I will admit though i come close to dying almost every fight but my damage output makes up for it. We do have a cleric as well who is our heal bot so its all good.

Actually this seems like an interesting predicament imo. The cloak itself creates the concealment around the character. If they are say in low light they can stealth as usual since its the area that has the concealment on it.

But when a rogue stealths would the cloak itself be hidden as well and not grant the concealment?

Obviously if i were the rogue i would hope this items works as described above (stealth whenever you want) but why have a cloak do this when there is the Hide in plain sight ability?

I doubt it would be intended for an item to replace an ability in the game.

I guess let the GM sort it out if anything

Interesting change i must say. So a pally could throw his Smite evil on the BBEG and gain the +cha mod to AC while he slays all of the minions.

Then come back a couple rounds later and drop the hammer.

Man, that sucks op.

Forced to re-roll your stats because you weren't on par with everyone when pidgeon holed into a role you never planned on.

Time to be the beastly 2 handed fighter and optimize that SOB to the max

Good luck mate.

Is this encounter the coup de grace on the campaign?

Seems like your going to have a slow tricking death of pc's going through a death trap hole in the wall.

Although i bet there is SOME kind of alternative to certain death through a tiny hole. My heart goes out to the PC's on this encounter.

Great tactic. My old dm through about 7-8 stirges at us and i hated him for it.

Of course my character being the beefy (3.5) cleric was quite pissed with all the touch attacks. In the end we were all down to around 6-8 con and had to get the hell out of that swamp asap.

Our monk had a blast though. *squish* *squish*

Reach weapon + Combat reflexes + AoO as trip attacks = win

I am sure this will make my Dm angry and jam us into 5' dungeon crawl holes.

In my current game i am a rogue and my pally friend is going to get improved feint so i can drop the hammer more often with my twf short swords.

Our party is Rogue, Pally, Sorceror, Cleric (cleric is a casting variant so no heavy armour and low BAB) so the pally doesnt mind burning a feat for improved feint so we can drop mobs faster, its usually the two of us in melee. He already has stupid stats to begin with though so optimization isnt needed as much.(18,18,17,16,14,14). Damn WOTC dice roller

I think the trap spotting ability should be a roll by the DM and you will eliminate this double roll business. If the free roll succeeds let the Rogue know there is a trap on X. If it fails they need to go search around like normal.

I believe it is two rolls though, but the free one should be in secret because if they roll and fail they know there is a trap around.

I think wizard would fill the hole a lot better.

And those stats will make a very powerful one to boot.

18 int/dex. Another high stat into con and the rest are throw aways in theory.

Almost perfect for a battlefield controller. Your not a glass cannon and you can run the show.

Isnt the rogues dpr based on sneak attacks + normal strikes?

Isnt the fighters dpr based on just pure might?

I personally though this was the case. So round 1 rogue moves into position, fighter dishes out his 60dmg. Round 2 rogue hammers for 60dmg and fighter does another 60dmg. Round 3 rogue does a pitiful amount of dmg due to losing flank, or he has to move, lose his full round attack and cut his DPR in half. Fighter continues to dish our 60dmg till the sun goes down.

Unless i am mistaken on the DPR olympics.

It reminds me of a session i had just last weekend. I have a TWF rogue and my friend plays a jacked up Paladin that runs around with a great sword. I landed a critical bow show for sneak attack dmg and dished out 28 dmg and the DM said "oh my!" Then he realized that on EVERY attack the paladin has been landing 10-15dmg minimum. My one round of huge dmg was nothing compared to the Pallys sustained dmg across multiple rounds.

Although it was nice to 1 shot a mage. heh I don't think i even landed my double sneak attacks. But we are level 3, and i wasnt rolling well till the end of the session.

Fatman Feedbag wrote:
You know... after like 3rd level I really can't see my druid ever casting these spells. What good is a 4 hit die mob in a fight between 7th+ level PCs and 7-10th level bad guys?

I am confused. Your not supposed to summon to replace other PC's in your party or to use them to dish out dmg.

Summons are one of the major ways to eliminate damage. If you summon a couple of bags of meat and they get nicely tenderized you just saved your front line players some dmg they would have taken.

As any caster that has access to these spells i always take and use them. Accept for at first level since 1 round of dmg soaking isn't that great compared to other level 1 spells (sleep, mage armour etc etc).

Once you look at the dmg they basically absorb you can realize how useful they are.

tbh, i would go over treakmonks optimizations for druid and wizard to see why they are far more useful then a lot of spells.

kroarty wrote:
Re: Low ac-Why not TWF with a shield?

Could be an option with a dip in fighter but if i am not mistaken rogues arent proficient with shields. Plus i don't think sneak attacking with a a shield would fly with my DM. Heck, even i think it would be ridiculous


Thanks for the input guys. I had a good feeling i will stick with finesse + TWF. If we were running pathfinder i would probably favour ranged with deadly aim although my DM could probably let me take it but i have a feeling getting the rogue talents (albeit slower and less choice) was the only bone he would throw me.

I have read about the TWF vs 2 hander but 2 hander thuggish rogue isn't my style. I plan to take my time to get double sneak attacks to finish off BBEG's and do the same to reduce the enemy numbers.

I will revamp my skills though to jack up UMD. I kind of shrugged it off at first since i would just let the other party members use stuff but i have a feeling the Pally and Cleric will be melee focuses and the bard would be the only person to really full use magic items/scrolls.

thanks again,

Although i may petition my DM to let me boost my con a bit. d6 under 3.5 is painful lol.

I have been lurking around these forums for awhile but i am a long time player. I am playing a Rogue in a party consisting of the following:

Half elf Bard - heavy on social abilities but has great combat stats
Dwarf Cleric - Typical drunk but hardy
Human (may change) Pally - Juiced up stats, damn Wizards die roller
Elf Rogue - me, playing chaotic good

We are all level 3 and the party is generally powerful. The Pally used the wizards die roller and landed 18 17 17 16 14 14 (not kidding, DM is letting it fly though).

The Pally is going to be our main brute w/ 17 str. The bard has a high str as well and i think the Cleric is no slouch in that department either.

My stats are as follows (going off memory):
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 15
Wis 14
Cha 12

Changing stats isn't really an option at this point but i am on the fence about feat selection. One thing to note is we are running 3.5 but the DM has graced me with using SOME of the rogue talents every 3 levels and not 2. So i took Fast stealth since aside from Bleeding attack (which is outlawed) its my number one choice.

Before our pally got his stats i was leaning toward Point Blank Shot and Precise shot but tbh the main reason is for Precise Shot. PBS can be nearly replaced with a mighty composite bow due to my +1 str. The reason i was planning on this is because our party is pretty melee heavy but after some thought i seem to be gimping myself for the sake of the party.

I keep going back and forth between Weapon Finesse + Two Weapon fighting and the range area but on paper i think i can fix any issues with range by just using a solid bow and The -4 is balanced by my +4 dex but i probably will be in melee more often getting flank attacks.

The only thing i don't like is the nearly wasted str score if i take weapon finesse. I will most likely dual wield rapier short sword. I really don't like the idea of being a thuggish rogue with a 2 hander. I know its the more optimized build but this party is so melee heavy that i don't need min/max the rogue too much.

I am pretty sure this is an easy question for these forums but i just want to concrete my thoughts on going TWF+Weapon finesse over ranged combat.

Also for skills would it be a bad idea to not take UMD? I will be the only character that has no access to spells so i have a feeling focusing on stealth and trap finding/removing is more important. We have healing in the bag with a high cha pally and a solid cleric.

Thanks for any input.