I run a campaign and one of my players using a 13 level bard abuses Inspire Greatness and by the RAW i can do nothing (except i'm missing anything)
So Inspire Greatness gives w/o mentioning everything else 2 HD that work like temporary hit points. When these hit points are lost the bard turns off Inspire Greatness and then he turns it on again as a swift action granting him and the barbarian continually with a pseudo-heal .Bard gains 2d10+8 hp but the 26 con barbarian gains 2d10+16 hp every round as a swift action and if you combine them together its almost 44 points of heal every round for free.
Is this abuse or the ability is ment to work like this?
That's the way it works. It's a good way to slow down the damage people are taking. But really, they're 13th level. At this point, even 2d10+16 isn't that much; max, it's 36 points of damage. The barbarian should be receiving far more punishment than that in a normal level-appropriate fight. Also, it is a form of healing that's eating up the bard's actions nicely. The bard could do more by using inspire courage to end fights quickly in all likelihood, especially if he's helping that barbarian out. What your bard is doing is a tactic I've seen and used in video games that's effective until you fight something with a decent damage output. It's great resource management, to a point.
|
Is this abuse or the ability is meant to work like this?
From how he is using it, I would call it abuse. But you DO have to keep this in mind "Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability and it relies on audible and visual components."
The barbarian would HAVE to be facing the bard at the beginning of his turn to benefit from this effect for that round in addition to being able to hear him. If the barbarian is ever deafened or blinded he would lose benefit.
|
|
First, its not free. He has a limited amount of those per day and they need to occur prior to incoming damage to do much.
I don't know if I would view this as a problem, but if it's really disrupting everyone else's gameplay by trivializing encounters the best solution would be to rule you can't "change" a performance without actually changing the type of performance you're playing. I don't see the raw specifically commenting on that aspect of the ability, and it's a perfectly reasonable interperetation in my mind.
|
|
Eh.. not quite...
Pathfinder has no facing. At worst, the barbarian would need line of effect*sight* to the bard. But in pathfinder during combat fighters can see in 360 degrees. *makes creepy ghost sounds*
Are you serious? That is not only nonsensical but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth... like 7up antioxidant.
I still push common sense that to visually "see" means it must be in the front 180 degree "cone."
|
yup. bad taste indeed, but these are the limitations we deal with in a simulationist game :p
Otherwise it becomes a LOT easier for, as an example, a rogue to get sneak attacks without stealth and/or flanking bonuses in combat.
How's he facing? Ok, I'll take a 5ft step so I'm in his blind spot and take my full attack action. What's the penalty for not being able to see me? Denied dexterity to ac? :D
|
|
I like your style! Blame the rogue, always, always the rogue!
Best way to get back at them is to give them magic items that can potentially save their lives and then give them the wrong command word. There is nothing like a rogue jumping off a sheer drop cliff and shouting "FLAME ON!" expecting wings to pop out of his back.
As others say, it's a valid tactic, but it does have its limitations--only so many uses per day, party has to see and hear bard, etc.
While the response should not be to automatically always try to thwart the attempt--players need to be able to have fun with their class abilities--if he's using it ALL THE TIME and becoming a one trick pony, there are things like silence spells and blocking line of sight with magic walls to make the ability less effective--and force the bard to become more creative with his tactics.
360 degree vision really should be another thread. But yes, it's a silly abstraction.
I know people have said this, but, you are aware any of the "unused" temporary hit points vanish between one use of Inspire Greatness and the next? If he's waiting until the damage is done, some of the damage gets through to the barbarian. Plus, even as a swift action, he can only reapply the Inspire Courage during his turn.
That being said, a decent Cleric can do better in the healing department, and at 13th level, if the enemies aren't dealing 30+ damage a round to the tank, something is wrong.
Most enemies will notice the bard is using this ability. I mean, why else would a bard be continuing to sing, and change up what song he's doing as the Barbarian keeps getting second winds. At 13th level, most big bads (and even small bads) would know to target the Bard. Similar to how PCs have an idea about the abilities of the monsters they fight, an intelligent monster should have an idea about the abilities a PC might have.
Ultimately though, the Bard is using up his daily bard song on minor fights. This is similar to the cleric healing the Barbarian afterwards. Except, he's got 30 + cha mod rounds of it, but even then, it's a lose-lose.
If an enemy is not eating through the temp hit points each round, then the bard is not getting the full effect, as again, any left over temp HP is lost. If the enemy is, then the Barbarian is in fact taking damage, and will need real healing anyway.
In most combats nerally everyone rolls to hit to damage the opponents and there every little bit counts.
So a bonus to hit will affect more chars and end the fight potentially much earlier then a few tmp hitpoints will do.
So only if your whole party gets damaged round for round fairly reliably (by a continous effect f.i.) this tactic sounds valid, else try everything to kill the baddies faster.
I never thought i'd see the day somebody was complaining about the bard being OP...
It's a weird interaction between the PFRPG "rounds per day mechanic" and abilities that didn't change from 3.5.
Similarly, a 17th level barbarian with Tireless Rage can rage for one round and then start raging again next round, in order to gain the benefit of the various "once per rage" powers every round.
That's the way it works. It's a good way to slow down the damage people are taking. But really, they're 13th level. At this point, even 2d10+16 isn't that much; max, it's 36 points of damage. The barbarian should be receiving far more punishment than that in a normal level-appropriate fight. Also, it is a form of healing that's eating up the bard's actions nicely. The bard could do more by using inspire courage to end fights quickly in all likelihood, especially if he's helping that barbarian out.
+1
and yes, the tactic is valid. According to James Jacobs it is.Inspire Greatness is actually one of the weaker bardic abilities. We are talking level 13, right. Doing this each round also prevents the bard from using Arcane strike.
Average healing for the barbarian is 27 HP and the bard gets 17 HP
At level 13 a cleric Channel energy 7d6 or cast heal or Cure Serious Wounds, Mass. If the cleric has the healing domain a Cure Serious Wounds, Mass is (3d8+13) x 1,5, that's an average of 40 HP to everyone in party.
Sure, the cleric can't do it every round, but he doesn't have to.
If you think the tactic your player use is abuse, just look at this.
Dirge of Doom as a move action + cast spell as a standard action + end Dirge of Doom as a free action + activate Inspire Greatness as a swift action. All done on the bard's turn.
The wizard might even ready an action and cast his spell as soon as the bard activates Dirge of Doom.
Nerfing the use of this "weak power" seams odd. Would you nerf the casters and say they can't use their level 6 or level 7 spells? Let's say the bard starts Dirge of Doom, the wizard casts Disintegrate. BBEG fails save and die before the first round is out. Or let the wizard cast Power Word Blind. Is that abuse?
Bard is a buff/debuff class let them buff/debuff.
[...]
While the response should not be to automatically always try to thwart the attempt--players need to be able to have fun with their class abilities--if he's using it ALL THE TIME and becoming a one trick pony, there are things like silence spells and blocking line of sight with magic walls to make the ability less effective--and force the bard to become more creative with his tactics.
I agree with DeathQuaker.
Do not automatically always try to thwart the attempt, but challenge the player...in fact you should challenge all players. I would not however force the bard to become more creative with his tactics unless you force all other players and classes to become more creative with their tactics. Are you forceing spell casters to do other stuff than casting spells? Are you forcing melee characters to do something other than hitting the monsters with their melee weapons?But if you by "force the bard to become more creative with his tactics" mean make the player use spells, flank use other kind of Bardic Performance, sure go ahead, but just ask yourself, do you force the other players to become more creative with their tactics as well?
Not letting rangers fight their favored enemy, not letting the Paladin fight evil foes, not letting the rogue fight creatures she can sneak attacked.
Again I agree with DeathQuaker, now and then you could 'force' the bard (and all other players) to become more creative with his tactics, but not all the time and most important: You should not do it because you don't like his/her tactic.
Bardic performance is one of the things a bard does. Why force the player to do something else? Sure cast silence and let the bard start inspire courage by dancing. When the player notice inspire courage is more powerful you be in a lot more trouble. As Lathiira said, using inspire courage is far more powerful ;-)
Make sure you all have fun. That includes you as well. Talk to your players.
/Kind regards Zark.
Finally people are starting to realize my POWER!!!
*maniacal bardic laugh*
|
|
Keep in mind that, unless the PCs with the temporary hit points are being damaged enough to lose them each time the Bard activates Inspire Greatness, they won't stack with new instances.
If the effect that grants the temporary hit points ends or is dispelled, any remaining temporary hit points go away.
So the bard gives 27 hp to the barbarian and 17 hp to himself, awesome. If he deactivates it for any reason though, those temporary hit points will go away. Re-activating it will then give new ones.
If the barbarian is being damaged for 27+ per turn, enough for him to lose the temporary hp before he regains new ones, then yes, it is a valid tactic for a kind of pseudo-healing.
Just remember that it won't constantly stack with itself and I think it's a perfectly fine ability. :)
Let the bard do something useful for a change. I would be hesitant to call this tactic game-breaking. Hell, you should be throing extra treasure at the party to account for it being handicapped by including a bard.You must belong to a small play group. A bard amongst 3+ PC's is a HUGE advantage.
A lot of people actually, more or less, agree with Nebelwerfer41. That includes Game masters as well.
Otherwise it becomes a LOT easier for, as an example, a rogue to get sneak attacks without stealth and/or flanking bonuses in combat.
How's he facing? Ok, I'll take a 5ft step so I'm in his blind spot and take my full attack action. What's the penalty for not being able to see me? Denied dexterity to ac? :D
The rules seem to imply that, though one character does not have 360 degrees vision (barring special abilities) and thus can be flanked, it can turn around without an action, and always face its attacker when there is not another to keep it occupied on the other side.
That's how I make sense of it, anyway.|
|
Eh.. not quite...
Pathfinder has no facing. At worst, the barbarian would need line of effect*sight* to the bard. But in pathfinder during combat fighters can see in 360 degrees. *makes creepy ghost sounds*
Are you serious? That is not only nonsensical but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth... like 7up antioxidant.
I still push common sense that to visually "see" means it must be in the front 180 degree "cone."
You obviously haven't been following the Sneak, or Hide in Plain Sight threads, LOL.
We all became beholder-kin in 3rd Edition...
|
|
So Inspire Greatness gives... 2 HD that work like temporary hit points. When these hit points are lost the bard turns off Inspire Greatness and then he turns it on again as a swift action granting him and the barbarian continually with a pseudo-heal .Bard gains 2d10+8 hp but the 26 con barbarian gains 2d10+16 hp every round as a swift action and if you combine them together its almost 44 points of heal every round for free.
Is this abuse or the ability is meant to work like this?
Is there a reason why the enemy is attacking the barbarian?
How many PCs are in the party, and how many are in the front line?Temp hp are only worth having if you're being hit.
The enemy is going to get sick of getting nowhere, and decide to drop someone else, like anyone flanking with the barbarian.
That helps three ways; it reduces total attacks coming in, reduces the barbarians attack bonus, and opens an escape route.
It's a great tactic, if they can wedge the enemy into a dead end, and ensure that they have to drop the barbarian to escape.
Otherwise, the other PCs could be stood around idle, and the bard is exhausting his songs/day in a far less efficient manner, than if they let the enemy out in the open to be surrounded by the whole party/cohorts/animals/eidolons.
If the party is being kept busy by other enemies, they may come to resent the barbarian getting all the love, while they get hammered. Is this the real issue?
Finally, something to do with what I thought was the least powerful bardic ability. Now its not terrible when compared to his standard inspire courage.
While the bard is in no way a powerhouse, it is one of the strongest classes IMO. This doesn't really change in my mind how powerful they are, but its nice to look at the ability differently.
stuff
They may be correct and you may also be correct.
In a party of 4 I'd say the bard is usually (but not always) a weak class.In a party of six or more, especially if the arcane caster is a Sorcerer, the bard is not only a good class but an excellent class.
A large group with a Sorcerer can benifit very much from a Bard.
Sorcerer have few skill points and very few knowledge skills. Also they have very few spells know and tend to focus on blast spells so they often lack utility spells and buff spells.
A Bard using Dirge of Doom and then casts haste, the Sorcerer then casts slow. Very funny. :-)
Edit:
An Ideal party?
- Paladin
- Combat rogue with TWF
- Cleric
- Second tank, Druid with and animal companion or fighter or monk
- Archer. Possibly a ranger with an aninimal companion
- Sorcerer
- Bard.
Barbarian isn't a good choise since a lot of their bonuses are moral bonuses and doesn't stack with some of the main bard stuff.