| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey all. I'm loathe to use the term "tank" (mostly because the concept of a party member generating a level of "aggression" to defend the other players is non-existant in d20) but really it's the best term to get the idea across. At any rate I am looking to make an optimized build for a melee character who has high durability and/or the ability to protect his allies as much as possible in fights, in general as much of a "tank" build as I can get. I have toyed with a fighter, barb, and pally builds. I must say I truly hate the barb, my reasons for hatred are not good ones so I will not get into it lol. Any advice on some general build concepts, rare defensive feats, homebrew classes, rules, etc on how to create a "tank" character, I would prefer to use a paladin-like build but I am open to other class themes as well. Thanks all :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have you looked at druids at all? A cross class monk druid who goes into earth form will have a huge AC, almost impossible to do a combat man. against, and then is immune basically to rogues.
The problem with "tanks" in D&D is that once you get past a certain level you will have to deal with intelligent monsters who will attack certain types over the one who looks the most threat.
The Knight from phb2 has a sort of taunt mechanic. That, with combat reflexes, stand still, lunge, PA/Cleave, and maybe something like Cornugon Smash are a fair substitution for a real aggro system.
Any enlarged martial class with a reach weapon is a pretty good 'tank' in my eyes. Hard to ignore.
Just to point out, past a certain level (13ish) everything can fly or have some alternate movement so a fighter needs to be able to adapt to that. It's hard to "tank" something that is 30' away, flying, and bombarding the party.
If you are open to 3.5 resources.... I have the most amazing defensive fighter build (just not with me so I can't remember all the feats,lol) but basicaally it is focused on defensive fighting. Any of the feats I mention not in the PFCRB are wither in player's handbook 2, Complete Warrior, or Complete Adventerer.
It focuses on using a rapier, high dex, and a shield. With agile shield Defense, you can use total defense and still threaten the squares around you (so still get attacks of opportunity). With Hold the line, you get attacks of opportunity against a charging opponent. I believe expert tactition is the one that adds a +2 to all attacks for the next round against a character you hit with an attack of opportunity. Defensive sweep lets you take an attack of opportunity against anyone who started their turn next to you and didn't move at all. And then thre is driving attack, where you take a single attack action with a piercing weapon, and if you hit you get to do a special bull rush attempt againt the opponent using the damage dealt as the modifier instead of your str bonus, and if you knock thge opponent back 10 ft or more, you can decrease the movement by 10 ft to knock him prone.
So, in summary, total defense = high ac, still threatening squares, with lots of attacks of opportunity and the ability to knock a creature back and prone = awesomeness.
You *might* want to try out a Paladin variant I've tinkered with for use in an "all paladins" game I'm running on-line at the moment.
The core of the build comes from OneWinged4ngel from the wizards boards, but I've modified it enough to be *different* for use in my game.
Anyway, you'd want to look at the "Ardent Bastion" paladin specialization. It's 100% about "protecting" your allies. It gets a HP bonus, gains a "cover" ability, and later DR that applies specifically to "cover" damage he/she soaks in defense of another. It's really quite neat.
A knight with step up, stand still and shield mate works very, very well.
If you are open to 3.5 resources....
...then there are a million ways to do this. Heck, with PF & 3.5 combined, you name it, it can be made.
That being said, if you DO have such resources, I like Extreme Shields, and the Heavy Armor Optimization/Greater Heavy Armor Optimization in Races of Stone. Exotic Armor may need conversion, since Mountain Plate is supposed to be even better than Full Plate, but with Pathfinder upgrading heavy armor, it's about the same.
Not to mention when the APG comes out, there's the Stalwart Defender, which if they have the same prerequisites as Dwarven Defender did, well...dodge and toughness don't suck anymore! YAY!
2nd the Knight, by the way, 'cause he keeps upgrading his shield's power, and pretty much has the ability to take one for the team, jumping in the way.
I'm surprised nobody has said this yet but the Paladin class is amazing for taking hits. They have the highest saves of any class, Lay on Hands is basically "fast healing Xd6." Against evil foes they are nearly invincible with they're +CHA to AC from Smite Evil. The Stand Still feat is good for keeping people from just ignoring you and walking past.
[...] Any advice on some general build concepts, rare defensive feats, homebrew classes, rules, etc on how to create a "tank" character, I would prefer to use a paladin-like build but I am open to other class themes as well. Thanks all :)
Do you use 20 PB or 15 PB?
Do you want to dump stats like int and/or wisdom?My advice: Human Paladin with buckler and a one handed weapon or with a two handed weapon. You don't want to use a shield since you will cast spells and using Lay on hands.
Start with 16 char and the rest on str. Con 12 is enough
Dex 10 or 12 (or 13 if you want dodge)
Wis 7
Int 7, 8 or 10.
15 PB
str 17
dex 12
con 12
int 8
wis 7
char 16
You get the same amount of skill points with 7 int as with 8 int so you could dump int to 7 and boost dex and con to 13 each. Me, I don't like to dump int. I would start with 10 int. I'll post more tomorrow.
Thank you guys so much for all the advice. Any and all of 3.5 rules are acceptable in our game. We have a tendency to run powerful campaign pc and enemy alike, ie 42PB lol.
|
Going to second Shield Mate (Complete Warrior) I always liked the flavor of the feat. Basically when using a shield you grant a +1 shield bonus to all allies adjacent to you. Improved Shield mate increases this bonus to +2A knight with step up, stand still and shield mate works very, very well.
Theres a teamwork feat that does that now in PF- the bonus is +1 or +2 depending on how big the shield is.
My advice: Human Paladin with buckler and a one handed weapon or with a two handed weapon. You don't want to use a shield since you will cast spells and using Lay on hands.
You can use a full size shield, just use a "weapon cord" from Adventurer's Armory. Drop the weapon, use your hand for the spell or Lay on Hands, and then recover the weapon as a swift action. Plus you can recover from being disarmed with a swift action as well, very handy. (Can't switch weapons, though, without a full-round action to untie or cutting the cord.) Best 1sp you'll ever spend.
The responses so far seem focused on other aspects,
but it seems like to achieve what you`re talking about (preventing attacks on allies),
AoO`s are going to be pretty crucial to protect other characters.
Besides Reach Weapons, the Barbarian Rage Power Unexpected Strike gives you an AoO on Threat ENTRY, EVEN ON 5´ STEPS, which is pretty huge. Combine that with a Knockback-Strength Surge, Trip/Stand Still/Disarm, Critical Effect (Staggered, Stunned, etc), and that enemy probably needs to change their plans now.
(Falchion is probably your best bet for non-Reach weapon, Glaive-Guisarme in the Adventurer´s Armory and apparently also in the upcoming APG seems the best ´controller´ reach weapon with decent damage and crit)
Monks are also good in this role, especially if you keep WIS high, since it determines Stunning Fist DC. (Adventurer`s Armory includes a weapon property that allows WIS to apply to attacks instead of STR... not legal for PFS organized play, though) With a high DC, that is probably one of the most effective defensive tactics you can use... Get Enlarged for extra AoO`s (along with Combat Reflexes), and you´re good to go.
I believe there is a Feat in the Seekers of Secrets Companion which allows switching place with an ally... There is also a similar one in the APG preview, which allows doing the same thing, but only with an ally who has the Feat (certain Classes like Cavalier or Inquisitor have ´floating´ Teamwork Feats which also work even if the ally doesn`t have said Feat).
There is supposedly going to be a no-longer-limited-to-Dwarves ¨Dwarven Defender¨ PrC in the APG, and if it is well done, I would think it would have some abilities along the lines of what you are looking for.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey all. I'm loathe to use the term "tank" (mostly because the concept of a party member generating a level of "aggression" to defend the other players is non-existant in d20) but really it's the best term to get the idea across. At any rate I am looking to make an optimized build for a melee character who has high durability and/or the ability to protect his allies as much as possible in fights, in general as much of a "tank" build as I can get. I have toyed with a fighter, barb, and pally builds. I must say I truly hate the barb, my reasons for hatred are not good ones so I will not get into it lol. Any advice on some general build concepts, rare defensive feats, homebrew classes, rules, etc on how to create a "tank" character, I would prefer to use a paladin-like build but I am open to other class themes as well. Thanks all :)
The Armiger (genius guide PF base class) may be helpful to your goal, its a very defense/party protection focused class.
I'd try building a fighter with a buckler, guisarme, and spiked armor. Give him the feats Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, Power Attack, then Cleave (at 2nd level). Convince an ally to cast Enlarge Person on him: He'll threaten a massive zone, stifling most foes who try to travel through it. He can also choose to trip foes with his polearm, avoiding their AoOs by keeping out of their reach.
I'm definately leaning towards using a reach weapon with a buckler. I will be using a blackguard base class I have developed with my DM. I will be dropping spellcasting, and my sneak attacks, for feats, which will replace the "need" to go fighter, although armor training is the juice! Basically I want to keep in theme with the campaign(I won't get into it), while still having a good chunk of feats. Anyone ever try the Defender or whatever it's called PrC from Complete Warrior? Sounds like it might be the way to go, since I will be saccing spellcasting anyways.
Instead of me making a new thread for this I'm just going to bump this one.
A lot has been released since this thread's creation... What would be the best tank now?
Paladin with antagonize. That monster isn't attacking anyone else.
There are some Cavalier options that work nicely as battlefield control tanks:
Order of the Shield - has a much better version of the Stand Still feat at 8th level, can convert lethal to nonlethal damage and gets bonus to AT against challenged foes that attack the rest of the party.
Order of the Dragon + Honorguard (Cavalier archetype) - a bit of cheese but you can *slightly* abuse the action economy (converts AoO to +4 (or more) AC bonus to adjacent allies against individual attacks via Aid Another) to make a strong bodyguard type that still gets full attacks each round.
I have a unique solution. Now I'm not exactly a power-gamer so I'm open to being corrected if my build is weak sauce.
Start with a half orc ranger. There is an alternate racial trait for half orcs that gives you a natural bite attack (There's a half orc feat that does the same thing- it's called razortusk- although I think the trait gives you a primary attack and the feat a secondary). When you select your ranger combat style, get natural weapons. You'll be able to get a combat style feat that gives you claw attacks.
The problem with all these natural attacks is that you don't get more attacks as you level- you'll pretty much have three attacks from early on (claw, claw, bite) till the end of the game. The upside? You're using your hands AS weapons, meaning you always have two free hands. With these free hands you can be a grapple master. And while you're using your hands to grapple people, you can bite them!
There's one problem with this style of tanking, and it's that you can only grapple one individual at a time. Again, the ranger class comes to the rescue because you'll have an animal companion to help you deal with additional threats, or at least tie them up.
There is one caveat here: Since rangers only get access to medium armor and you probably won't be using a shield grappling people, you won't be as durable as other tanks who have more HP and/or AC. Still, I think it could work.
Tanks usually fall into 2 categories, the "controller" who, as his name implies, controls the battlefield. the other option is the "soaker", who can stand in the way of enemies and easily shrug off their blows.
In PF Controller usually is the better option, but unfortunately caster classes will beat you at your own game. At higher level they get spells like Stinking cloud, Black tentacles, and a dozen other save or suck spells at their disposal that can make any DM facepalm at the nightmare that is now their battlefield. With all this said I am of the opinion it might be more interesting to try and build a soaker-type tank for PF.
As others have mentioned above paladins are pretty nice in this aspect with high BAB for CMs, good HP and saves, the ability to swift action heal, and heavy armor to boot. One effective method I have found is to goad the mobs into using up their AoOs via broken wing gambit and giving your allies the chance to pummel the crap out of the critter and move freely about without worry of AoOs themselves. Note all this can change based upon party comp anyways, cause if your the only melee then obviously this would be a poor choice.
Tetori monk, nuff said :)
Reach Weapon, Combat Reflexes, a charges per day item of enlarge person. 5/day for 1,800 GP. 2,700 GP to add to another item. essentially, 20 foot reach for 5 combat encounters a day. Take Robilars Gambit (PH2) and Steadfast Determination (PH2). don't neglect archery. it can be a useful backup tool.
Hey all. I'm loathe to use the term "tank" (mostly because the concept of a party member generating a level of "aggression" to defend the other players is non-existant in d20) but really it's the best term to get the idea across. At any rate I am looking to make an optimized build for a melee character who has high durability and/or the ability to protect his allies as much as possible in fights, in general as much of a "tank" build as I can get. I have toyed with a fighter, barb, and pally builds. I must say I truly hate the barb, my reasons for hatred are not good ones so I will not get into it lol. Any advice on some general build concepts, rare defensive feats, homebrew classes, rules, etc on how to create a "tank" character, I would prefer to use a paladin-like build but I am open to other class themes as well. Thanks all :)
I wouldn't do that. I tried a tank, and despite an experienced DM helping me build my character, i was mostly unable to be there to protect my allies because of my low speed, and never dealt any damage or really made that much of a difference. being a tank sucks.
