I have just read it at Candlekeep. Here is the original post with links to the respective blogs:
Wow.
I can't help but wonder...how many other gaming companies out there have been laying off folks in the past year and a half?
Oh. My.
I have no love for WotC, but this is NOT good, imo.
Time and time again, the word from those in the know is that Magic the Gathering is the main money maker for WoTC, far outpacing D&D. If anything is in danger by the continual layoffs and product schedule reductions, its the D&D brand, not likely WoTC as a whole.
I'd say the new boardgames they're releasing are "testing the waters" so-to-speak.
Thank goodness for the OGL.
... I only know Philip Athans as the guy who wrote those excruciatingly horrible Baldur's Gate novelizations a little over a decade ago.
At the risk of sounding like a horrible person, is this really a bad thing?
RPGs don't make a lot of money. Most "best" companies are the small ones. D&D was "in trouble" from the time Hasbro purchased WotC, but I imagine ultimately it will survive this.
At worst, we can hope Hasbro releases its hold on the D&D Trademark, and then maybe Paizo can pick it up. :)
OTOH, if they've made money on D&D video games, they may keep the brand and related IP and just crank out more video games instead, dropping the tabletop line. That would be very sad, but as all of us here know, with Pathfinder and many other fine games out there, life will go on. :)
My only real fear would be is if Wizards of the Coast was actually dissolved, would that affect the legalities in the Open Game License? I.e., would the OGL go away if Wizards did?
My only real fear would be is if Wizards of the Coast was actually dissolved, would that affect the legalities in the Open Game License? I.e., would the OGL go away if Wizards did?
No. The OGL is not revocable.
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True layoffs due occur frequently, but look at the steady stream over the last year. It's not the usual dump at the end of a product cycle but a consistent bleed of a particular product (D&D).Yes the CCGs are king but D&D is now becoming (or is) a weak sister.I do believe WoTC will be absorbed into Hasbro and dissolved and these layoffs are a turn in that direction. I don't think keeping WoTC a separate division provides any benefit to Hasbro and I'm sure there are bureaucratic redundancies that can be eliminated with its absorption. Does printing "Wizards of the Coast" on a box of Magic cards sell more of them? I don't know for sure but I don't believe so.
The job openings listed on WoTC website are mostly for jobs doing digital work, and Magic primarily, though there is one D&D opening. I suspect that they wouldn't dissolve them, since WoTC is a strong brand name, granted not as strong as Hasbro but the association with kids toys may turn off Magic players.
I just don't see it being the end of D&D, since that's one of the products Hasbro touts on their website as being a familiar brand. Then again, if I knew anything for sure I would probably be working a job where I wouldn't be able to say anything about it, right?
I admittingly don't know the extent of Phil Athans' work, but I read his Baldur's Gate books, and they were excruciating.
Perhaps WotC has reasons for this other thing financial stress? :P
That sucks, because I really liked Phil's Sahuagin trilogy from FR and some others that he's written. By all accounts he was an awesome editor, and it really sucks to see him looking for a job now in this economy.
-edit - not going to add speculation about how WotC is or isn't doing.
Phil Athans was a novel line editor, and that was his primary job. He wrote a few novels, but he was mainly an editor. Every writer that has mentioned him, at least that I have seen, has had glowing things to say about the man. So yeah, I get people may not have liked some of the books he wrote himself, but if you don't actually know what job he was laid off of, perhaps its best not to kick a man when he's down.
Phil is a friend of mine and has benn since we were in high school together. I talked to him last night after hearing the news from his wife. He is ready to move on and I wish him the best. In regards to D&D and WotC he told me that 4th Edition is a complete bust, a victim of the bad economy, but that M:TG has had it's best year EVER. Go figure.
Good luck, Phil, ubb. dubb, dubb.
P.S. regarding his Baldur's gate novels. We talked about that many years ago and he simply said that he was given an outline of how the video game was SUPPOSED to play and that he was to provide the noveliazation based on that outline. Well lo and behold between the original outline and the premiere of the game the play of the game changed and Phil was screwed over.
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That sucks, because I really liked Phil's Sahuagin trilogy from FR and some others that he's written. By all accounts he was an awesome editor, and it really sucks to see him looking for a job now in this economy.
Same here Todd. His Sahuagin trilogy is still one of my favorites, and he was the editor who helped put Paul S. Kemp on the map. He's definitely got loads of talent, and I'm sure he'll move on to bigger and better things.
In regards to D&D and WotC he told me that 4th Edition is a complete bust, a victim of the bad economy, but that M:TG has had it's best year EVER.That's pretty much what I figured is going on.
It seems to me that if one game product sold really well and the other not so well, then you can't blame the economy as the reason one didn't sell.
It would have to be something else. Like maybe the product didn't resonate with buyers.
Yes, random person on the internet, tell us more about your details connections with the industry and the secret gossip that only you can share. I'm sure it's trustworthy.
I know some people who buy cards as an investment. Not too many out of those I know who play, but there are some there. However, I have yet to meet anyone who believes unicorns exists, much less anyone who thinks pulped cardstock can be used to feed them.
Personally, I think one of the reasons card sales haven't been hit as hard as game book sales is the price tag. It is easier to justify the $10 or so for a starter deck and the later $5 booster purchases than it is to justify the $40 monthly purchases for the books.
Time probably has something to do with it too. A couple games of magic don't take all night - a session of D&D usually does.
Phil is a friend of mine and has benn since we were in high school together. I talked to him last night after hearing the news from his wife. He is ready to move on and I wish him the best. In regards to D&D and WotC he told me that 4th Edition is a complete bust, a victim of the bad economy, but that M:TG has had it's best year EVER. Go figure.
Good luck, Phil, ubb. dubb, dubb.P.S. regarding his Baldur's gate novels. We talked about that many years ago and he simply said that he was given an outline of how the video game was SUPPOSED to play and that he was to provide the noveliazation based on that outline. Well lo and behold between the original outline and the premiere of the game the play of the game changed and Phil was screwed over.
I'm jealous. I only ever got to touch a spot that Phil once looked at.
OTOH, if they've made money on D&D video games, they may keep the brand and related IP and just crank out more video games instead, dropping the tabletop line. That would be very sad, but as all of us here know, with Pathfinder and many other fine games out there, life will go on. :)Something like this may have unintended consequences.
If the tabletop D&D rpg is taken off the market, who else will step in as the "gateway drug" into the tabletop rpg world for new players?
For example, does Pathfinder have the "brand awareness" in popular culture to attract tons of new players to the game, without D&D acting as a "gateway drug"?
Or since PF has decided to take a more "mature" approach to many of its products, is it really appropriate for it to act as a "gateway drug" for players that start usually while they are in their early teens (tweens?).
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I know some people who buy cards as an investment. Not too many out of those I know who play, but there are some there. However, I have yet to meet anyone who believes unicorns exists, much less anyone who thinks pulped cardstock can be used to feed them.
Personally, I think one of the reasons card sales haven't been hit as hard as game book sales is the price tag. It is easier to justify the $10 or so for a starter deck and the later $5 booster purchases than it is to justify the $40 monthly purchases for the books.
The funny part about this is people will spend 60 dollars on cards 10 dollars at a time but won't buy a 60 dollar RPG. The human brain doesn't really understand the difference between a 20 dollar bill and a 1 dollar bill. Same reason arcades only cost you 25 cents a game (well back in the day anyway).
Also, unicorns totally exist, how else do you explain this Unicorn Meat?
OTOH, if they've made money on D&D video games, they may keep the brand and related IP and just crank out more video games instead, dropping the tabletop line. That would be very sad, but as all of us here know, with Pathfinder and many other fine games out there, life will go on. :)Something like this may have unintended consequences.
If the tabletop D&D rpg is taken off the market, who else will step in as the "gateway drug" into the tabletop rpg world for new players?
For example, does Pathfinder have the "brand awareness" in popular culture to attract tons of new players to the game, without D&D acting as a "gateway drug"?
I began regularly gaming on a frequent basis in the '90s. Back then, based on the local gaming community, the "Gateway drug" was Vampire: the Masquerade and most people knew "Dungeons and Dragons" as that 80s cartoon with the kids and the little unicorn. While D&D was in fact MY "gateway drug," many of the people I gamed with (voracious gamers in their own right) for nearly a decade didn't know what a d20 looked like.
People didn't start talking about D&D again until the Baldur's Gate video games came out, and then 3rd Edition came out a couple years later, when it was the next new big thing.
What I'm getting at is that while D&D certainly is the biggest and oldest name in RPGs, there WILL be ebbs and flows in its popularity and popular awareness, and other games will step in to pick up the "slack" more than I think some are willing to give credit.
As for Phil Athans' being laid off, it what he was was the novel editor, that suggests the novels weren't doing well (or at least for whatever random reason Hasbro didn't want to invest in that part of things any more) and thus maybe those are going away, but it doesn't spell doom for the game line per se. And I apologize if I sounded too harsh about his situation--I had never heard of him outside of those novels, so I really just didn't understand what the issue was behind the OP's post.
Whether 4E is truely on the down turn I can not say, but there are some other factors that did not help, in regards to the online subscription model, selling books, third party products, i.e. marketing and customer support, that gives the appearance hasbro has no clue in regards to roleplaying games, let alone D&D. This is not a dig against 4E rules, and with a little tweaking they would arrive at a happy medium (avoiding some of the strongest criticism), but lets hope for the best whether it is a persons job or the future of the hobby.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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As for Phil Athans' being laid off, it what he was was the novel editor, that suggests the novels weren't doing well (or at least for whatever random reason Hasbro didn't want to invest in that part of things any more) and thus maybe those are going away, but it doesn't spell doom for the game line per se. And I apologize if I sounded too harsh about his situation--I had never heard of him outside of those novels, so I really just didn't understand what the issue was behind the OP's post.
I think this is more likely than that 4E is failing. I think the FR re-boot hurt the novel line considerably. At least for me, it caused me to go from reading every FR novel they printed to not reading any once they crossed into the 4E reboot timeline. I know a lot of people who play 4E, even if I'm not one of them, but none of them play in the realms. That certainly wasn't true during 2E and 3/3.5.
Whether 4E is truely on the down turn I can not say, but there are some other factors that did not help, in regards to the online subscription model, selling books, third party products, i.e. marketing and customer support, that gives the appearance hasbro has no clue in regards to roleplaying games, let alone D&D. This is not a dig against 4E rules, and with a little tweaking they would arrive at a happy medium (avoiding some of the strongest criticism), but lets hope for the best whether it is a persons job or the future of the hobby.
Whoh whoh whoh
Credit where credit is due, DDI is awesome.
Whoh whoh whoh
Credit where credit is due, DDI is awesome.
Unless I misunderstand, however, I think part of the problem is that people aren't motivated to get DDI and books at the same time. I know (and this is only anecdotal) that I've heard many gamers say that, given the amount of errata, they have no interest in print books and just subscribe to the DDI.
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I think the FR re-boot hurt the novel line considerably. At least for me, it caused me to go from reading every FR novel they printed to not reading any once they crossed into the 4E reboot timeline.
+1
Which is really sad, because they've got some decent authors working for them. But, hey, maybe now some more of those guys will come write for Pathfinder.
Whoh whoh whoh
Credit where credit is due, DDI is awesome.
Unless I misunderstand, however, I think part of the problem is that people aren't motivated to get DDI and books at the same time. I know (and this is only anecdotal) that I've heard many gamers say that, given the amount of errata, they have no interest in print books and just subscribe to the DDI.
Also--bearing with the very large grain of salt that I have never used DDI--my understanding is that while DDI is a great resource for its source materials and character generator, it is still far less than what was originally promised (a fully online game management system, chock full of DM tolls etc.). I have seen DDI subscribers complain that they didn't get what they signed on for, and while they stay on for the excellent character generator, etc. it still isn't everything it was once cracked up to be.
This IS hearsay, however, so take it for what it's worth.
Whoh whoh whoh
Credit where credit is due, DDI is awesome.
Unless I misunderstand, however, I think part of the problem is that people aren't motivated to get DDI and books at the same time. I know (and this is only anecdotal) that I've heard many gamers say that, given the amount of errata, they have no interest in print books and just subscribe to the DDI.
That is what I was trying to state. I see the success of DDI as a transition from paperback to online resources. I have no problem with it, but how does that affect the former, more traditional line. Combine that with lack of third party support for online resources, only compounds the problem. And finally add the transition from open licensing to the current OGL, and you have to wonder what the game plan is. Then of course, some people do not like what was changed, and will not play 4E, so your player base is fragmented.
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Oh. My.
I have no love for WotC, but this is NOT good, imo.
I agree. It looks like the WoTC division of Hasbro is in some trouble. I imagine at some point it will just be absorbed into Hasbro completely and no longer exist as a separate division.
It's hard to believe this is happening to D&D but I guess it had a great run. If it weren't for WoTC in the 90s D&D would already be gone so they deserve a lot of thanks.
I never thought of it that way.
Despite my utter disgust for what they perverted D&D into with 4E, they DID save it from the chopping block and that in turn, is what helped us now enjoy Pathfinder.
Also, unicorns totally exist, how else do you explain this Unicorn Meat?
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Uh oh! There I go being an arrogant and ignroant American again! I keep ignoring that the smurfs originated elsewhere!
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Bringing this back on topic ... Any more details yet on why he was let go?
I tend to feel that these lay offs and firings DO have a deeper meaning ... the question is what?
Companies never reveal why they let somebody go, and usually they ask the person to sign a non-disclosure if they want their termination benefits. So we will probably never know.
However, I do know that they put the woman in charge of their Mirrorstone young adult fiction line in charge of the books that Phil used to be in charge of. This could just be a consolidation of positions or it could be lining up with their Essentials line coming out this Fall.
-Lisa
In regards to D&D and WotC he told me that 4th Edition is a complete bust, a victim of the bad economy, but that M:TG has had it's best year EVER.That's pretty much what I figured is going on.
Well, in my opinion, M:TG is just more accessible. For example, players can buy booster packs for a couple bucks each; not much of an investment and money still changes hands. D&D, however, is a little more costly to your average player. The books are still in the US $30 range? I haven't bought anything new in 2 years except PF, so I'm not sure.
Back when I was in high school, before I even had a job, I could use my allowance to pick up a booster pack or two of M:TG. I couldn't afford to buy D&D books until I was working a steady job. Point being, it's just easier and cheaper to get a pack or two of cards, than to buy a $30 book.
More stores are probably willing to stock M:TG than D&D books as well. I've seen several stores over the years carry at least a couple boxes of M:TG cards, but not carry any RPG books; for example, more than a few sports card stores may just casually stock one particular M:TG expansion for casual customers, whereas you would probably not find an RPG book section.
That's not a fair comparison. One thing that you have to remember is that a significant portion of the trading cards bought are purchased by people who plan on flipping them over as a financial investment. (Truthfully, how many of you expect to sell your Pathfinder books for 2-5x the price you pay for them?)A significant number of them are also bought to be pulped in order to make feed for unicorns.
Isn't making things up fun?
Back when I played M;TG (around '94-'97) I knew several hobby stores who were doing exactly this. They'd buy a box of booster packs, open each pack and sell the rares/uncommons individually. Heck, I remember once I bought a Mirage starter deck and got 2 cards in it worth around $50, turned right around and sold them back to the store. This was an extremely common practice.
Don't believe me? Go look on Ebay. I know it's happening BIG time with Star Wars miniatures.