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BAB & Two-Weapon Fighting

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Hey guys,

I'm a bit confused with the cumulation of high BAB and two-weapon fighting.

Say we have a 6th level fighter with a BAB of +6/+1, holding a longsword and a shortword with the 2WP Feat. His STR bonus is +3, giving us +9/+4 total.

So if this fighter strikes during a full-round action at an enemy, does that mean that he gets 4 attacks total (2 for longsword, 2 for shortsword) or only 1 additional attack due to 2nd weapon. If last case scenario, what bonus should you apply to the attack?

Thanks for the clarification!
Greyblade wrote:

Hey guys,

I'm a bit confused with the cumulation of high BAB and two-weapon fighting.

Say we have a 6th level fighter with a BAB of +6/+1, holding a longsword and a shortword with the 2WP Feat. His STR bonus is +3, giving us +9/+4 total.

So if this fighter strikes during a full-round action at an enemy, does that mean that he gets 4 attacks total (2 for longsword, 2 for shortsword) or only 1 additional attack due to 2nd weapon. If last case scenario, what bonus should you apply to the attack?

Thanks for the clarification!

He would attack longsword +7 (1d8+3), shortsword +7 (1d6+1), longsword +2 (1d8+3).

Nazard wrote:
Greyblade wrote:

Hey guys,

I'm a bit confused with the cumulation of high BAB and two-weapon fighting.

Say we have a 6th level fighter with a BAB of +6/+1, holding a longsword and a shortword with the 2WP Feat. His STR bonus is +3, giving us +9/+4 total.

So if this fighter strikes during a full-round action at an enemy, does that mean that he gets 4 attacks total (2 for longsword, 2 for shortsword) or only 1 additional attack due to 2nd weapon. If last case scenario, what bonus should you apply to the attack?

Thanks for the clarification!

He would attack longsword +7 (1d8+3), shortsword +7 (1d6+1), longsword +2 (1d8+3).

OK cool, why not another shortsword attack too? Off-hand weapon gives you only 1 extra attack, whatever your BAB is? Correct?

Greyblade wrote:


OK cool, why not another shortsword attack too? Off-hand weapon gives you only 1 extra attack, whatever your BAB is? Correct?

Yes, unless you have Improved or Greater 2WF.

Now I get it! I was re-reading the SRD.

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get ONE extra attack per round with that weapon"

So that off-hand weapon strikes with your highest BAB. Finally! :)

Thanks a mil!
Greyblade wrote:

Now I get it! I was re-reading the SRD.

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get ONE extra attack per round with that weapon"

So that off-hand weapon strikes with your highest BAB. Finally! :)

Thanks a mil!

Improved Two Weapon Fighting would give you a secondary attack with the off hand weapon at -5.

So with TWF your 6th level fighter would get.

Longsword +7, Short Sword +7, Longsword +2

With Improved TWF he would get

Longsword +7, Short Sword +7, Longsword +2, Shortsword +2,

Greater Two weapon fighting lets you get a 3rd attack with off hand with a -10. In my experience the -10 puts that attack at such a low chance to hit it not worth the feat to take Greater Two Weapon fighting. Other more useful feats to take.
Sovereign Court
Kalyth wrote:

With Improved TWF he would get

Longsword +7, Short Sword +7, Longsword +2, Shortsword +2,

Greater Two weapon fighting lets you get a 3rd attack with off hand with a -10. In my experience the -10 puts that attack at such a low chance to hit it not worth the feat to take Greater Two Weapon fighting. Other more useful feats to take.

The -10 is not a penalty, it's so that the third iterative offhand attack lines up with your third iterative main hand attack.

BAB of +15, with all the requisite 2-weapon feats, would have an attack progression that looked like:
1st main hand: Longsword +13
1st off hand: Short sword +13
2nd main hand: Longsword +8
2nd off hand: Short sword +8 (-5 from first off hand, per Imp 2-weap fighting)
3rd main hand: Longsword +3
3rd offhand: Short sword +3 (+10 from first off hand, per greater 2-weap fighting)

See how all the main hand and off hand attacks line up. The BAB required for each 2-weapon fighting feat also line up to where you gain each iterative attack (Imp 2 weapon at +6, when you gain your 2nd attack, & Greater at +11 when you gain your 3rd attack).

Clear as mud?
Laughing Goblin wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

With Improved TWF he would get

Longsword +7, Short Sword +7, Longsword +2, Shortsword +2,

Greater Two weapon fighting lets you get a 3rd attack with off hand with a -10. In my experience the -10 puts that attack at such a low chance to hit it not worth the feat to take Greater Two Weapon fighting. Other more useful feats to take.

The -10 is not a penalty, it's so that the third iterative offhand attack lines up with your third iterative main hand attack.

BAB of +15, with all the requisite 2-weapon feats, would have an attack progression that looked like:
1st main hand: Longsword +13
1st off hand: Short sword +13
2nd main hand: Longsword +8
2nd off hand: Short sword +8 (-5 from first off hand, per Imp 2-weap fighting)
3rd main hand: Longsword +3
3rd offhand: Short sword +3 (+10 from first off hand, per greater 2-weap fighting)

See how all the main hand and off hand attacks line up. The BAB required for each 2-weapon fighting feat also line up to where you gain each iterative attack (Imp 2 weapon at +6, when you gain your 2nd attack, & Greater at +11 when you gain your 3rd attack).

Clear as mud?

What I was trying to point out was that with it having the BAB of the third interative attack and factoring in the -2 penalty for TWF that 3rd off hand attack granted by Greater Two Weapon Fighting isn't likely to land alot of the time and may not actually be worth spending a feat to get.

Kalyth wrote:
What I was trying to point out was that with it having the BAB of the third interative attack and factoring in the -2 penalty for TWF that 3rd off hand attack granted by Greater Two Weapon Fighting isn't likely to land alot of the time and may not actually be worth spending a feat to get.

True. However, is it still an additional attack, and the character still has a 5% chance of landing a 20. And, also, if the character happens to have some feats allowing him to sacrifice attacks to gain tactical benefits (I'm sure I saw this somewhere... just can't remember from the top of my head), they get more options.

Sovereign Court

I'd also point out that for a 20th level fighter, their third iterative attack is still at a +9 (plus their ton of other modifiers). AC on targets generally tracks slower then attack progression (as in, at higher levels you gain + to hit faster then you, or the bad guys, gain AC), so your chances of landing that last attack go up.

In fact, I have been in near epic games where fighters have been annoyed that there wasn't a way to get a 4th off hand attack (to match their 4th iterative main hand swing at level 16).

Sorry for resurrecting the dead, but I was wondering. In the first example can't the attacker still swing his short sword at the un-feated -4 [Light weapon in off hand], since his BAB is +6/+1 [+9/+4 with str bonus] giving him his second attack?

So it would look like Longsword +7/Short Sword +7/ Longsword +0/Short sword +0.

And would the -2 from TWF fighting stack for

Longsword +7/ Short Sword +7/ Longsword -2/ Short Sword -2?

Wendiego here are the various permutations of a fighter with a BAB of +6/+1 (with +9/+4)

1 weapon: +9/+4
2 one-handed weapons, no feat: +3/-2 (primary) and -1 (offhand)
2 weapons, one is light, no feat: +5/+0 (primary) and +1 (offhand)

2 one-hand weapons, TWF feat: +5/+0 (primary) and +5 (offhand)
2 weapons, one is light, TWF feat: +7/+2 (primary) and +7 (offhand)

2 one-hand weapons, Imp. TWF feat: +5/+0 (primary) and +5/+0 (offhand)
2 weapons, one is light, Imp. TWF feat: +7/+2 (primary) and +7/+2 (offhand)

- Gauss

By default, without any of the TWF feats, you can choose to two-weapon fight, but the penalties are outrageous. -6 to your main-hand attack and -10 to the off-hand, -4 and -8 if you use a light off-hand. This allows you one off-hand attack only. The TWF feat only reduces the penalties to a manageable level; -2/-2 if you use a light off-hand, -4/-4 otherwise. Then, the ITWF feat allows you a second off-hand attack. You start with one off-hand attack as a given, but must take ITWF to gain a second off-hand.

Additionally, you only trigger TWF rules and penalties if you're actually using them to go above your attack allowance. With +6 BAB, you could make two iterative attacks, either with the Longsword, the Shortsword, or one of each and neither one is an off-hand attack; you take no TWF penalties and both attacks gain full Str to damage.

Lastly, it was confirmed (though stated that it's complicated enough that most people shouldn't bother doing it) that you can employ two-handed wielding along with off-hand attacks with certain restrictions. If you used a one-handed weapon in two hands, it "eats" your next potential off-hand attack. This means that, if you have two potential off-hand attacks via ITWF, you could make one main-hand attack two-handed, change grip to one-handed, and make your second off-hand attack (the one at BAB-5), either with a non-hand weapon (ie. Boulder Helmet, Boot Blade, etc) or with a quickdrawn weapon. In essence, you lose your full-BAB off-hand in making that two-handed attack, but you don't lose the BAB-5 off-hand unless you make a second two-handed attack. Alternatively, if you make an off-hand attack, you have a "debt" to make a main-hand attack one-handed.

So, with +3 Str bonus, +7 BAB, a Longsword in one hand, and a Dagger in the other hand, you could make all of the following attack sequences:

Longsword +10/Longsword +5
Longsword +10/Dagger +5
Dagger +10/Longsword +5
Dagger +10/Dagger +5
In all the above cases, attacks with either weapon get +3 to damage from Strength.

Now we'll declare Two-Weapon Fighting with ITWF (2 total off-hand attacks) and the dagger as your off-hand:
Longsword +8/Longsword +3/Dagger +8/Dagger +3
Longsword +8/Dagger +8/Longsword +3/Dagger +3
Longsword +8/Dagger +8/Dagger +3/Longsword +3
Dagger +8/Longsword +8/Longsword +3/Dagger +3
Dagger +8/Longsword +8/Dagger +3/Longsword +3
Dagger +8/Dagger +3/Longsword +8/Longsword +8
In the above cases, your Longsword attacks get +3 damage from Str while Dagger attacks only get +1. Note how a lower-tier main-hand attack never comes before a higher-tier one and a the same goes for off-hand attacks. You can shuffle between hands so long as each hand independently obeys its respective ordering sequence.

Lastly, we get into the complicated matter of mixing 2-h fighting with off-hand attacks. We'll replace the Dagger with Unarmed Strike for simplicity as well as only listing exemplars and not exhaustive order lists as above:
Longsword +8 (2-h)/Unarmed Strike +3/Longsword +3 (1-h or 2-h); You give up your +8 Unarmed Strike because you made that first Longsword attack 2-handed.
Unarmed Strike +8/Longsword +8 (1-h only)/Longsword +3 (2-h); You must make your +8 Longsword attack one-handed because you already made one off-hand, but your second Longsword can be made two-handed by burning your +3 off-hand.

By default, without any of the TWF feats, you can choose to two-weapon fight, but the penalties are outrageous. -6 to your main-hand attack and -10 to the off-hand, -4 and -8 if you use a light off-hand. This allows you one off-hand attack only. The TWF feat only reduces the penalties to a manageable level; -2/-2 if you use a light off-hand, -4/-4 otherwise. Then, the ITWF feat allows you a second off-hand attack. You start with one off-hand attack as a given, but must take ITWF to gain a second off-hand.
==========

Thanks for the answer guys, but I'm not seeing why you couldn't get a Fourth attack without ITWF based on your first sentence. Granted it would be at crazy negatives [Longsword -3/Short Sword -7] but is it possible?

No, you need the feat ITWF to get a second offhand attack. There is nothing in the rules that grant you a second offhand attack except that feat.

- Gauss

One off-hand attack total is granted as standard without any feat. Only one, not as many as you choose to make. It's ITWF that grants you the capacity to make a second off-hand attack. That means that without the ITWF feat, you cannot make a second off-hand attack, full_stop. It's not a matter of penalties, it's a divide by zero error.

Is anyone factoring in the math that when duel weilding, 1 weapon gets ur full str and the offhand gets only half ur str bonus? Or am I missing something here?

Redneckdevil, that only applies to damage rolls.

CRB p179 wrote:
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.

- Gauss

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