The 'Speed' effect on a weapon is a +3 power which grants one additional attack with that weapon at it's highest bonus.
What would an item that does the same thing, but for any weapon wielded by the character cost and what body slot would be the most appropriate?
I know I could make a constant item of Haste for ~120,000 gold but I am not looking for all of hastes benefits, just the extra attack every round.
A +1 Speed weapon would be 32,000 gold, so in it's absolute cheepest form Speed is a 30,000 gold piece effect on ONE weapon. would 45,000 be appropriate for a set of gloves that would give it to any weapon held?
Well, boots of speed cost 12,000 gp, but they only work for 10 rounds per day.
Well, boots of speed cost 12,000 gp, but they only work for 10 rounds per day.
Plus they give all of Haste's other benefits as well. I am just looking for the extra attack with any held weapon all the time, so I don't have to spend any actions activating it.
Well, boots of speed cost 12,000 gp, but they only work for 10 rounds per day.Plus they give all of Haste's other benefits as well. I am just looking for the extra attack with any held weapon all the time, so I don't have to spend any actions activating it.
Well, the boots of speed use a free action to activate; it's not like you'll run out of free actions.
If I were your DM, I'd probably just scale up the boots of speed cost (e.g., if you wanted 20 rounds of extra attacks per day, it'd cost 24,000 gp). 60,000 gp sounds about right for all the attacks you want, I suppose; 50 rounds is probably more time than you would spend fighting in a day at any rate.
Well, boots of speed cost 12,000 gp, but they only work for 10 rounds per day.Plus they give all of Haste's other benefits as well. I am just looking for the extra attack with any held weapon all the time, so I don't have to spend any actions activating it.Well, the boots of speed use a free action to activate; it's not like you'll run out of free actions.
If I were your DM, I'd probably just scale up the boots of speed cost (e.g., if you wanted 20 rounds of extra attacks per day, it'd cost 24,000 gp).
This. Since you can turn them on and off as a free action, you only burn a charge on the round where you get a full attack action. Although I might allow extra rounds at a discount. IE for 24k you get boots that last for 30 rounds. 90% of the time, you won't use more than 10-15 rounds.
Since you don't want to use the other benefits of speed, I'd grant you a slight discount: Instead of 1200gp per round/day, such an item would cost 1000gp per round/day.
A +1 Speed weapon would be 32,000 gold, so in it's absolute cheepest form Speed is a 30,000 gold piece effect on ONE weapon. would 45,000 be appropriate for a set of gloves that would give it to any weapon held?
Absolutely positively not.
This is a slippery slope. Once we open Pandora's box here, we're going to find it full of cans of worms. This cat should stay in the bag.
(Hopefully that's enough euphamisms)
There is a reason for the escalating progression of abilities on weapons. They get progressively more and more expensive as the total effective bonus gets higher. Speed on a +1 weapon is only a 30,000 GP increase, but speed on a +5 weapon costs 78,000 extra GP, and speed on a +8 weapon is impossible without using Epic rules (I don't remember the cost, but I'm fairly sure it was well over 1,000,000 GP).
The reason for this is to keep the bonuses from getting out of hand. I could enchant a +1 sword for 2,000 gp. I could add Flaming to it for 6,000 extra GP. So why can't I make a Glove of Flaming Weapon for 6,000 GP and use it to make my +1 sword into a +1 flaming sword? It's the same cost, right?
But then I could use the same Glove of Flaming with my +5 sword, making it a +5 flaming sword. That flaming enchantment should have cost me 22,000 but I got it for 6,000. Cheap.
And in addition to my Glove of Flaming (6,000 GP) I could have a Belt of Keen (6,000 GP) and Boots of Shocking (6,000 GP) and a Headband of Frost (6,000 GP) and a Ring of Ghost Touch (6,000 GP), and now my ordinary +1 sword becomes +1 flaming shocking frost keen ghost touch sword, which would normally cost 72,000 GP but I got it for a steal at 32,000 GP.
Even better, maybe I own a +1 Brilliant Energy sword and I wear those 5 items turning it into a +1 flaming shocking frost keen ghost touch Brilliant Energy sword that should have cost me 200,000 GP but I managed it for only 80,000 GP.
Even betterer, or more better, or bestest, or bestester, is my +5 Vorpal sword that becomes a +5 flaming shocking frost keen ghost touch Vorpal sword and breaks the rules system entirely at an effective bonus of +15, so far into the Epic scale that I'm sure it must cost many millions of GP, but I got it for only 230,000 GP.
I won't even talk about adding in my 15 Ioun Stones of Bane, or my Vest of Holy, my Amulet of Axiomatic, my Broach of Dancing, my Codpiece of Defending, my Bracelet of Disruption, etc.
And if we can add abilities in this fashion, what about adding the raw plusses? Could I make a Glove of +1 Weapon? A Hat of +5 Weapon? 101 Stones of +1 Weapon that I keep in my Handy Haversack and they give me the bonus anyway, just like a Luckstone would?
Could I eventually make a +101 flaming shocking frost keen ghost touch Holy Axiomatic Dancing Defending Bane(All) Vorpal sword of Disruption?
See the problem?
Consequently, I concur that the best way to handle this is probably to just give you a charges/day item like Boots of Speed, although you might want more than 10 charges.
KaeYoss suggested a discount for not getting the other benefits of speed, but forgot to raise the price for using a charged item as a free action rather than a standard action. that extra benefit cancels out the reduction entirely. YMMV.
. . . my Codpiece of Defending, . . .
LOL. I now have the desire to see this statted up.
. . . my Codpiece of Defending, . . .LOL. I now have the desire to see this statted up.
LOL, that one was my favorite...
Again: We don't want to see your Codpiece of Xylophone Playing, Blake!
DM Blake, to your point you can already get speed in the form of boots of speed, and its better because it grants the other haste bennefits. It lasts 10 nonconsecutive rounds for only 12000 GP. You can also already get keen in the Scabard of Keen Edges, though that is a standard action lasting almost an hour 3 times/day for 16000. Both are lvl 3 spells.
To me, this is a perfectly reasonable request. I agree with others though and say you should scale up the boots of speed to longer durration. Its easier to judge price and is slightly better. If I were to do it as a permanent bonus, 120,000 would be the price I would assign for permanent haste. 2000*3spell lvl*5 caster lvl*4 for haste being a 1 round/lvl spell. I would probably drop it down to a 100,000 if you just wanted speed.
DM Blake, to your point you can already get speed in the form of boots of speed, and its better because it grants the other haste bennefits. It lasts 10 nonconsecutive rounds for only 12000 GP.
Isn't that exactly what I said yesterday?
DM Blake, to your point you can already get speed in the form of boots of speed, and its better because it grants the other haste bennefits. It lasts 10 nonconsecutive rounds for only 12000 GP.Isn't that exactly what I said yesterday?
While I realise I could scale up the boots of speed, I am specifically NOT looking for the other benefits of haste. I don't want the item to increase movement, give save or AC bonuses or anything other than the extra attack to whatever weapon is being wielded.
Looking for advice on appropriate pricing for that effect, taking into account that an item that gives haste 24/7 would be 120,000 gold by the basic rules.
@ DM BLake, thank you very much for your input but I am not looking to debate wether such an item should exist or not. Just what appropriate cost would be within the games crafting rules.
While I understand that the + system was put into place to regulate magical power on a weapon I also believe that this ability can be fairly priced for it's power outside the + system as a unique magic item.
Since Boots of Speed exist and Mithril Full Plate of Speed exists, then the concept of an item that speeds you and your weapons is not out of bounds or thought.
And I am only looking to create an item that speeds your weapon.
Heck if you look at the weapon crystals in the Magic Item Compendium (and those can be moved from weapon to weapon with no limite as the weapon gets upgraded) you will get some that are WAY more powerful that an extra attack for far less money.
Heck the Greater Fire Crystal in there can be attached to ANY weapon, costs a whopping 6,000 gold and makes that weapon Flaming AND causes the target to take an additional d6 fire damage the next round after every hit.
The Greater Return Crystal gives you Ready (+1), Lets you call the weapon to hand from up to 30 feet and give the Weapon 'Returning (+1)' for a measley 4,000 gold. Normally 2 +'s of effects are 8K and that is not including the 'Called' effect which is normally a 2K armor effect not to mention that these are not tied to ONE weapon.
That is 10K of abilities you can move from item to item for only 4K?
I am not looking to get away with murder like the crystals. I am looking for a fair cost.
As you correctly point out, the weapon and armor crystals in Magic Item Compendium are overpowered or underpriced. In their defense, you can only put one on any given item, so the inflation that I described up to and including the Codpiece of Defense cannot happen with the MIC crystals.
Still, they are, just as you say, underpriced, and some DMs refuse to use them. And when I am a player, I have certain favorite crystals that I always try to talk the DM into letting me have - surely because I get plenty of return on my investment. I am not always successful in my entreaties; some DMs are just too cagey.
To respond on the price, I would say split the difference to be fair.
Speed on a +1 weapon raises the price by 30,000 GP. Speed on a +7 weapon raises the price by 102,000 GP. The average is 66,000 GP. That seems like a fair price for a non-weapon item that imparts the ability to any weapon you hold.
Seem like too much? Maybe. I have never seen a +10 weapon in any game I have ever played or run. That's a pretty awesome level of power even for a 20th level character. Maybe your campaign will never get that far - I know mine don't (DM or player, I haven't been above 15th level in 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder).
So if your campaign will probably have an upper level that is less than 20, then maybe estimating the price on +10 is too steep. Maybe you'll never go above 12th level in a particular campaign (seems like many APs end around that level, and I think it's the upper level allows in PFS - could be wrong).
Using level 12 as an example, the Wealth-by-Level table says you probably shouldn't have more than 140,000 GP at 12th level, and no more than about half of that should be spent on a weapon, so that's 70,000 GP, pretty much the price of a +6 weapon (+3 Speed). That would only be 54,000 GP to upgrade, for an average of 42,000 GP. Much more affordable.
Maybe too affordable. Remember, at 12th level, you might come out of a dungeon with a +5 or +6 weapon in your hand. For example, you might find a +4 Keen Flaming sword. And when you hold it with your Glove of Speed, it suddenly becomes a +9 weapon in your hand. That's just an example, but it might happen, which is why I lean toward overpricing the Glove of Speed rather than risk having it imbalance the game.
Or maybe this whole "WBL and split the difference" idea is totally off the mark, but I can't think of any other good way to estimate it, other than the Boots of Speed idea (adjusted for more charges and maybe/maybe not a discount for not being complete Haste) - but you've already heard that one. Nothing else comes to mind.
Wow. I still had stuck in my head 3.0's Boots of Speed, which did take an action to use (at 8000 gp).
Could look at the pricing in reverse:
120,000 for permanent Haste
-3750 for unusual AC boost (2500 * 1.5 = 3750)
-3000 for unusual bonus to hit (2000 * 1.5 = 3000)
-1500 for single save bonus (~1000 * 1.5 = 1500)
-12000 for +30 movement (8000*1.5 = 12000)
= 99750, or right about 100,000gp
That sounds about right to me. That's the 66000 average from DM_Blake + 50% for being "off spot". It's also right on the maximum benefit (to a +7 weapon).
As you correctly point out, the weapon and armor crystals in Magic Item Compendium are overpowered or underpriced. In their defense, you can only put one on any given item, so the inflation that I described up to and including the Codpiece of Defense cannot happen with the MIC crystals.
Agreed. In fact my regular GM is pretty liberal and LOVES high powered games and even she says that the crystals are silly cheap for what they do. I personally agree with her and you on them. They are just too good for the price.
To respond on the price , I would say split the difference to be fair.
Speed on a +1 weapon raises the price by 30,000 GP. Speed on a +7 weapon raises the price by 102,000 GP. The average is 66,000 GP. That seems like a fair price for a non-weapon item that imparts the ability to any weapon you hold.
Seem like too much? Maybe. I have never seen a +10 weapon in any game I have ever played or run. That's a pretty awesome level of power even for a 20th level character. Maybe your campaign will never get that far - I know mine don't (DM or player, I haven't been above 15th level in 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder).
As to game level we have one GM and she runs (currently) three campaigns for us. One is Epic (all 5 players are level 20-21 about to hit 21-22) and the other 2 other lower games at roughly level 6 in each now (one we are all escaped slaves from the drow and the other we are a motley band of freaks in service to a Paladin with very liberal hiring idea's).
The item was an idea for my High level Gishlike cleric in the epic game who has craft Wonderous Item and Magic Arms and Armor. Although what level a campaign is should have little to no bearing on item creation prices IMO. The item has a set power and effect and based on the spell it comes from and what it loses it should have an absolute cost. If the price precludes it being in a level range to purchase for a game then that is just the way of it.
While I well realise that NO object has a cost that can represent it's power when combined with all other items, all items have costs that represent their overall usefullness and power. My point being that this item on a Wizard is far less valuable than say the same on a Duel Wielding Fighter. The price has to represent that.
As it ends up I talked to the ref last night and her ruling was about 65K for such an item, which I generally agree on as well. While an exta attack on a full attack IS nice at any level, losing a bonus if 30' on ALL movement modes should not be undervalued.
I should note that while the boots of speed with more rounds idea is certainly valid (12K for those is just crazy good), the biggest reason I wanted the full time ability is that my GM often has battles that last 50-60 melee rounds as the culminations of her adventure chapters. Running battles and marathon combats against waves of enemies or titanic bad guys that take small armies or towns to fight etc. So 'not running out' is crucial in her games and a the current epic level, cash is not too much of a problem.
(BTW my Warlock used to drive her absolutely nuts since her never ran out of anything, for example. She had fits trying to run him down.)
Thanks to everyone who gave their ideas, though. Some great insights in this thread on item creation.
PS: Majuba, don't forget that the movement increase from Haste is to ALL MOVEMENT MODES the target posseses. Climb, Swim, Fly, Ground, Burrow, etc. 12K is appropriate for bonus on ONE of those, not ALL of those.
PS: Majuba, don't forget that the movement increase from Haste is to ALL MOVEMENT MODES the target posseses. Climb, Swim, Fly, Ground, Burrow, etc. 12K is appropriate for bonus on ONE of those, not ALL of those.
Excellent point - I'd double it then. Rarely will you have more than two movement modes used anytime close to each other (why climb or swim when you fly?).
Just a thought. If a pair of gloves were made to give someone an extra unarmed strike, wouldn't the extra speed benefit the weapon too? And if somEone made their gloves with the flaming quality, wouldn't their +2 longsword begin taking fire damage, melting, and eventually become useless because the flaming quality only confers its bonus to only one weapon? Unarmed strike counts as a weapon, so they couldn't confer the bonus to another weapon
We were not suggesting a glove-weapon of +1 Flaming. I was suggesting a wondrous item called Glove of Flaming, the sole purpose of which is to impart the Flaming property to weapons wielded in that hand. If you punch someone while wearing the glove, you couldn't even do the fire damage to them since you're holding no weapon to impart the property to (and your hand is inside your glove, so imparting it to your hand wouldnt' do much good - though if you made such a glove your DM may feel more lenient about that, allowing the Flaming to apply to held weapons and to unarmed attacks made with the glove).
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While I realise I could scale up the boots of speed, I am specifically NOT looking for the other benefits of haste. I don't want the item to increase movement, give save or AC bonuses or anything other than the extra attack to whatever weapon is being wielded.DM Blake, to your point you can already get speed in the form of boots of speed, and its better because it grants the other haste bennefits. It lasts 10 nonconsecutive rounds for only 12000 GP.Isn't that exactly what I said yesterday?
The full price for boots of speed is entirely appropriate. If you don't want the other benefits then don't activate the boots unless you are getting the full attack. Your discount is in the reduced number of rounds required. The +1 to attack, Ac, and saves for the rounds you are hasted are just gravy on top of the bigger benefit of the spell.
Edit: As Blake points out the boots are a steal for what they do and you should just take them and run with it.
The default answer should be no unless a very good reason is found otherwise.
I cannot disagree more strongly. The default answer should always be 'maybe'. Pathfinder/D&D and the myriad other thousands of RPG's are an exercise of imagination and storytelling. What is too powerful for one persons game is not strong enough for anothers.
In the end, ANY items should be possible if it fits in well with the play style and power of each groups gaming style and the stories setting.
In my experience the major faults with games usually lie with the players and not the rules system frankly.
The rules give you guidelines to play with. It is up to the players to find the balance in HOW they want to use the rules. If games got out of hand, it is because the players in that game MADE it out of hand or the ref of the game allowed it to or even both.
Creativity should be the cornerstone of all RP games. Default answer 'no' is the very opposite of that spirit, IMO.
Now, I am not saying that everything should be allowed, but it should at least be considered and examined.
And personally, having all magic items be carbon copies or minor variations of the ones already in the book gets very boring frankly. Sometimes it is nice to get a unique item or 2 (or more) and work with their specific differences. Not everything that gives a movement bonus or an attack increase should 'just be the haste spell'. Variety is good.
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The default answer should be no unless a very good reason is found otherwise.I cannot disagree more strongly. The default answer should always be 'maybe'. Pathfinder/D&D and the myriad other thousands of RPG's are an exercise of imagination and storytelling. What is too powerful for one persons game is not strong enough for anothers.
Ultimately we have to assume everyone plays within the system roughly outlined by the rules system. This means core items, average wealth by level, and stats in a fairly reasonable range. If your game is too far outside the norms then are on your own. So what is too powerful for my game is likely too powerful for most people's game.
In the end, ANY items should be possible if it fits in well with the play style and power of each groups gaming style and the stories setting.
Sure, with the understanding that we are meeting here under the assumption that you are sticking fairly close to the core assumptions of the game. Otherwise it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion about the game.
There IS prescedent for such an item. I can't believe I am bringing this up, but Drizzt got a pair of magical bracers from Dantrag Baenre that did basically the same thing. He wears them as ankel bracers, but originally they were meant to go on his hands.
Ah yes, bracers of the blinding strike. They made it into 3E, gave you an initiative bonus via Improved Initiative, +6 armor bonus, and a haste effect IIRC. Try Magic of Faerun, though other versions exist. I want to say they cost 120-136K.