First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the wives, fiancés, girlfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We men realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you women bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
Now on to the topic at hand. Namely, why don't you like this game? And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest? We, as your loving spouses, love to see you happy, and having fun. We also love slaying monsters, finding sweet loot, becoming heroes, and discussing the finer points of gnome tossing with mid-air enlarge person. Why can't these two things we love co-exist?
I realize that my target audience is not likely to be lurking these forums anytime soon, so I turn my question over to the greater Pathfinder and rpg community.
Fellow GMs,what have you noticed that works/doesn't work to incorporate your more hesitant female players?
Lady players, what first enticed you to the game, and what keeps you playing now?
Perhaps we can gain some enlightenment into this age old question.
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The girls I've been fortunate enough to game with work just like the men.
The Wizard's 3.5e DMGII (if memory serves) has a good section about personality types in gaming and what specifically gets the juices flowing in each stereotype.
I've had girl gamers that love to rock the dice in melee combat, doing the most damage.
I've had girl gamers that love puzzles and riddles in adventures.
And then ones that love to RP the bard, bluffing and conning their way through things without combat.
Then there's wallflower types who are generous, good-natured sorts supporting their husbands/boyfriends who fill in the role of healer, but don't really seek any spotlight.
So that said, I've seen each and every girl function just like the guys - meaning each one was different in terms of what got them going. In the DM seat, I think the first adventure or two you put "one of everything" in front of your players, and you see what gets them excited, and make a mental note that if she's "into puzzles and riddles", you pick or add those to adventures to speak directly to her passion.
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I got lucky...my father-in-law has always been a gamer and was even part-owner of a gaming store for quite awhile. He ran little mini-campaigns with my wife and her sisters starting around age 4-5, so she's always been around it. She did stop playing for awhile because (in her own words) she "grew boobs and got hot." (back to the social stigma again)
Long story short, we moved to OK and I found a new group here. She came to one of my sessions so she could spend more time with me (I work alot and she has the baby all day). The next session she had a character and was part of the group.
She's more the type that just enjoys playing and doesn't really want to mess with the numbers. She knows where her modifiers are and what they go to, but when she needs a new character she just tells me some backstory and what type of character she wants to play and I write it up for her approval. She's slowly but surely learning the system, but it doesn't really bother me...she's playing which is more than most husbands can say about their wives :D.
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There are as many answers to this question as there are people.
Some people will enjoy rpgs. Some won't. Some will be scared to join because of the impression they have about the game or the gamers. Some will like roleplaying, some will become rules lawyers. Some will enjoy the storytelling, some the math and mechanics, some both.
There is some old baggage that is still affecting things - I find much of the older art extremely annoying - it practically screams "This game is only for guys!" This has been improved greatly over the last decade, but that stigma is still there.
The current proportion of men to women gamers is improving all the time, but men still outnumber women, so that's another extra barrier for women entering the game - if you're the only woman in a room full of guys - especially if they're good players and you're new - it can be terribly intimidating. Every mistake you make feels ten times worse, and even having a room full of helpful fellow players can leave you feeling out of your depth.
Certain gaming stores make entering the hobby difficult - there are gaming stores where I won't shop simply due to the atmosphere generated by the employees, owner or even the customers. Online shopping eases this discomfort nicely.
All you can do is invite people, treat them well, try to help them with their particular difficulties and find what they like about the game and cater to that occasionally. Sex doesn't enter into it too much, really, at an essential level. It's hard for me to explain what groups did right to make me comfortable and happy - it's much easier for me to give examples of what groups did it wrong.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?
Stop making gender an issue.
I met my wife through my college gaming group as it expanded and shifted through players as they graduated and moved to different dormitory wings and such.
I'm very D&D, with a bit of Rifts/White Wolf/Everything else in there. Shes mostly D&D/White Wolf, with a willingness to at least try other systems.
One thing I've noticed is this: Women tend to play to escape. My wife works for child welfare, so tense social interactions are something she deals with daily. As a result, she tends to either play wallflower healers or combat monsters. Conversely, one of our players works in animal control. She likes having pets, but due to a recent baby with her and her husband, I've noticed her characters have become a bit more "untied down", perhaps as an escape from the duties of motherhood.
Maybe I'm just elbow deep in my own posterior, though. My observations are just that, observations. Hardly a thourough or scientific study.
I would also think that any woman approaching or in the child rearing phase of life might be interested by any class with an animal companion. Druid seems to be a easy sell to ladies, from my personal experience. The nature powers, the fuzzy animal (which can often be "raised from birth"), and the healing magic all seem to sync up well with feminine impulses.
Again, maybe I'm just blowing a lot of smoke here.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?
Shower? That usually helps. :)
Seriously I have had no problem getting female players in fact one of most recent campaigns had the men outnumbered by the women. I would say Rp'ing is more important, but the women I game with tend to be pretty bloodthirsty.
I've mostly played in groups with an equal number of both sexes. Professions include: VP, social worker, tech writer, librarian, web/video editor, homemaker, and a couple more who's profession ranks weren't yet allocated. Their game interests have run from plot to RP to combat to keeping an eye on the SO to being an utter cypher. Fan service illustrations have rarely been a motivation or garner much more than an eye-roll, although one's suggested that Valeros is a hottie. Irritation with the lack of mini-options outside the scantily-clad/full plate binary have been mentioned more than once.
Hope that helps.
I will preface that this is not true of all the female players I know. They are as diverse a group as any I know. Much of this advice is for all new players, not just women.
In my experience, the hesitant female players are often intimidated by having no other females at the table. Get 1 and its easier to get more. Once you break the social stigma in a group its a lot easier to shatter it. Make sure your invites into the group sound honest, and not like your trying to get into her pants (even if you are). Don't sound suprized when one female player wants to bring annother to the table, and don't crack jokes about how female gamers don't exist.
When explaining the rules, include the basics and only go into more depth where they seem interested. As they play, they will learn more and you don't want to overcomplicate things too quickly. Stick to more beginner friendly classes like the ranger, barbarian, and sorc, and give them ideas on how to make the character effective. Wizard and Cleric are probably 2 of the worst classes to give them. Wizard is overwhelming for beginers and if you don't understand the cleric you end up as HealBot1000 and its not fun. I see a lot of female begniners gravitate towards the druid, but make sure they know its more complicated than other classes.
Many women lie to themselves and convince themselves that they are less compotent at math and science. This is a self fulfilling proffecy because they get intimidated by it. Shatter it by keeping things simple and doing character creation in steps. Perhaps have a cheat sheet so they know when some of the special numbers on their character sheet come into play. Different ACs, CMB/CMD, BAB are the big offenders, make sure they know what each means. In my experience, women get more frustrated with all the numbers more easily. If this happens, don't belittle them.
Once they start playing, they tend to be more into cinematic combats than hack and slash. They like non-combat challenges. They get into the combat elements more as they get a feel for the game. Often some of the more reserved ones get suprized when you try to interact with them in character, but I find they tend to enjoy it more once they get going. Like any player, make sure they are actually involved with what is going on, not just sitting by and allowing someone else to make the decisions. Like any new player, if they feel like they are getting steamrolled by someone else, they are less likely to stay or try gaming again.
I've played RPGs with many women. Mostly White Wolf games. Something about Vampires just gets the women intrigued. I think it's due to the books by Anne Rice and now the Twilight series.
I've only seen a few jump to D&D in the past.
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...and don't crack jokes about how female gamers don't exist.
Very little annoys me more than jokes about how I can't be a real woman because I'm a software engineer/gamer, or snarky questions about if I'm sure I wouldn't rather be shoe shopping or something. Evidently there's some "joke" book about the race or class or something "female gamers" and their racial bonuses to shopping and penalties to understanding the rules...someone was trying to make jokes about that two weeks ago as a new player and I was extremely annoyed.
...and don't crack jokes about how female gamers don't exist.Very little annoys me more than jokes about how I can't be a real woman because I'm a software engineer/gamer, or snarky questions about if I'm sure I wouldn't rather be shoe shopping or something. Evidently there's some "joke" book about the race or class or something "female gamers" and their racial bonuses to shopping and penalties to understanding the rules...someone was trying to make jokes about that two weeks ago as a new player and I was extremely annoyed.
Ooohhhhh...yeah, that'll get me cranky PDQ.
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I first started gaming when my sister was invited to play D&D by a co-worker. She didn't want to go by herself, so she took me along. Our DM was really nice, and since 3e had just come out, EVERYBODY at the table was still learning the system, so none of us felt out of our depth because we were all starting at the same knowledge level. I decided to play a ranger, and took Point Blank Shot as my first feat. I wasn't sure how combat went, so I mostly hung back and tried to use my tracking skills. Then, in the Sunless Citadel, the rogue fell into a pit trap ALONG WITH a dire rat! He was screaming for us to pull him out before the rat ate him, but instead of rushing to help pull him out, I nocked an arrow and pointed it into the hole. The rogue started screaming "Don't shoot me!" certain that I'd aim for the rat and hit him instead. But with my point blank shot I hit the rat squarely and killed it before it could attack.
That first kill gave me a real rush of power. I was hooked. Up until then, I hadn't even killed a spider in real life!
I know that it's unlikely you'll get a table full of noobs, and they don't come out with new systems every day, but here's how to make the table more noob (and women) friendly: remind everyone to try not to use acronyms that don't appear on the character sheet, and treat eachother almost like noobs. Instead of saying "You crit," maybe say it out - "Your 20 means you have a critical threat. Roll again to confirm that you have struck a vital spot."
I know it is a BIT more cumbersome to say all that, but it helps the new person and if everyone at the table goes along, the noob won't be faced with a big language barrier. :)
I've noticed the druid thing too. At one point in the game I used to run, four of our six regular female players were druids. Competition for the druid-centric magic items got pretty nasty a time or two. (Whoever thinks girls don't care about stats has never seen the mayhem that can ensue when there's one "+1 damage/die" druid spell item on the table and four players who want it.)
...but back on topic: "don't make gender an issue" is great advice. All bad things come from emphasizing the "girl" in "girl gamer" over the "gamer." Don't do that.
Treat female noobs like any other noobs: with patience, good humor, and a careful eye toward what aspects of your adventures they seem to respond to. Then tailor the next adventure to include a few more of those things, whatever they were.
Take care that your campaign isn't tone-deaf to gender issues (this is sometimes a problem if you're using older materials or have, um, a few inadequately socialized gamers in your group). If you see a problem, be quick to neutralize it, but don't make it look like you're doing this just for the sake of the girl at the table. Few things make me, personally, feel more awkward than the realization that a group has changed its dynamic solely because I'm there.
And, above all, be vigilant for any hint of creepiness and smack it down FAST. Cannot emphasize this enough. In college I had to drop out of some really good groups because a couple of the other players seemed to think that gaming sessions = flirtin' time! and it made things really, really uncomfortable.
That's all I got. :)
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There are as many answers to this question as there are people.
Some people will enjoy rpgs. Some won't. Some will be scared to join because of the impression they have about the game or the gamers. Some will like roleplaying, some will become rules lawyers. Some will enjoy the storytelling, some the math and mechanics, some both.
There is some old baggage that is still affecting things - I find much of the older art extremely annoying - it practically screams "This game is only for guys!" This has been improved greatly over the last decade, but that stigma is still there.
The current proportion of men to women gamers is improving all the time, but men still outnumber women, so that's another extra barrier for women entering the game - if you're the only woman in a room full of guys - especially if they're good players and you're new - it can be terribly intimidating. Every mistake you make feels ten times worse, and even having a room full of helpful fellow players can leave you feeling out of your depth.
Certain gaming stores make entering the hobby difficult - there are gaming stores where I won't shop simply due to the atmosphere generated by the employees, owner or even the customers. Online shopping eases this discomfort nicely.
All you can do is invite people, treat them well, try to help them with their particular difficulties and find what they like about the game and cater to that occasionally. Sex doesn't enter into it too much, really, at an essential level. It's hard for me to explain what groups did right to make me comfortable and happy - it's much easier for me to give examples of what groups did it wrong.
I agree with Jess here. It is far easier to point out what groups do wrong than what they did right.
As far as the best advice I can give to get your wife/girlfriend involved. Is you should know what her interest are. Show aspects of the game that appeal to her. Ask her nicely with out putting to much pressure on her, to just give the game a try. Run something one on one and make the game focus on the things that appeal to her. If she likes it she likely will play more and then ease her into other aspects of gaming. In the end eventually invite her to join the group.
It helps if their is other women already in the group, as Jess said. Beyond that treat them like any new gamer you want to play.
As for what got me into gaming, well I always liked fantasy. I liked to read and my brothers group was down a fighter. Both guys that played the fighters called in at the last moment. So I got roped into playing Leifstern the fighter pregen from Saltmarsh for the group. I was meh about it at first and then I got the pseudo dragon, which was cool. The more I played the more I liked it. By the end of the game I was hooked and wanted to join in.
Edit: Caineach, Zeugma, and Liane Merciel all gave pretty good advice, while I was typing my response.
I didn't really have to be "brought in" to gaming, I guess...I've always been kinda a nerd (>_> <_<) and loved fantasy and scifi books, movies, etc. So as far as that goes, I can't really offer much advice.
But as several posts above have said, please, for the love of all that's holy, if you want to keep any girls you might have at the table from leaving, don't go treating us like some sort of mythical creature, and don't allow anyone to act like a crazy chauvinistic neanderthal (not saying you do, but...well, some people do -_-).
That isn't to say we don't have any sense of humor, but remember, you're talking about a new player, in a room full of people she probably doesn't know, at least not well, all of whom have probably been playing for quite some time so are less likely to make newbie mistakes that she'll see. It's intimidating, and no one, girl or guy, likes to be mocked to add on to that.
Once you get to know her better, and she's more comfortable, then some of those jokes may be ok (some...get to know her first, find out if she's comfortable with that sort of thing) but it's a baaaaad idea to start off on that foot.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.
+1
Gender I don't think is an issue really. Granted there are stereotypes but with MMORPGS and other console based gaming becoming more popular I think many of them are going away.
What prevents some people (not just women) from joining up with a game like this is the stereotype the GAME has, not the player your trying to attract. As someone above said hygiene is a big factor. Showering and watching crude behavior is a good way to keep any player. Male or female. Granted men are less likely to be offended by farting, scratching and body odor, its not endearing to ANYONE.
I never really understood the "women are not gamers" attitude until recently when i was looking to various other gaming groups and was shocked there weren't any females in the group, or were surprised that 3 out of 6 of my players were of the fairer sex. (that was 3 years ago, the demographic has changed a bit as people come and go, but we still have 1 out of 4 players female).
I think a lot of it comes down to attitude. You go into the situation treating them as different and they're going to feel alienated even if you do your best to make them welcome.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.
I tell this to my female friends and they b&+*@ at me and tell me I'm sexist for not recognising the years of discrimination they have faced... You can't win.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.+1
Gender I don't think is an issue really. Granted there are stereotypes but with MMORPGS and other console based gaming becoming more popular I think many of them are going away.
What prevents some people (not just women) from joining up with a game like this is the stereotype the GAME has, not the player your trying to attract. As someone above said hygiene is a big factor. Showering and watching crude behavior is a good way to keep any player. Male or female. Granted men are less likely to be offended by farting, scratching and body odor, its not endearing to ANYONE.
I never really understood the "women are not gamers" attitude until recently when i was looking to various other gaming groups and was shocked there weren't any females in the group, or were surprised that 3 out of 6 of my players were of the fairer sex. (that was 3 years ago, the demographic has changed a bit as people come and go, but we still have 1 out of 4 players female).
I think a lot of it comes down to attitude. You go into the situation treating them as different and they're going to feel alienated even if you do your best to make them welcome.
+2
It's the 'let me defend your right to game, fair lady' not 'sit back and let her tear a new one to anyone who says she can't' attitude thats as bad as anything. Also some 'nerdy' people with atrocious social skills who are wierd with women make everyone, the woman included awkward, but I genuinely beleive that most gamers have the maturity and werewithal to see a gamer, not a girl.
First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the wives, fiancés, girlfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We men realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you women bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
I'm going to respectfully suggest that if you want to attract female gamers to your table, you might consider beginning by examining your apparent assumption that all gamers are male. I'm a woman. I'm a gamer. I don't 'put up' with gaming for the sake of a spouse or significant other. I do it because I enjoy it. And if I *did* have a spouse or significant other who was a gamer, you'd better believe I'd be right there at the table in the group and likely sharing the DMing responsibilities. And I'd be willing to bet that many of the female denizens of these boards are similar. So... yeah... maybe you could start by acknowledging our existence, if you want us to be attracted to your table.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.
What she said.
The best advice I can give you is to treat women who game as individuals with their own preferences, and check your gender-based stereotypes at the door.
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My wife got into gaming about 3 years ago. I was trying 4th edition out with a friend who was GMing for the first time, and we were all just learning the system, so I invited her. She was always the nerdy type, just not THAT kind of nerd, so she had no social stigma holding her back, she just had never gotten into it.
She's not the biggest gamer, and prefers to only play about once every other week, but in the last 3 years (playing only off and on about half that time on any sort of regular basis) she's gone from being confused a good deal of the time to being able to flesh out decent characters, roleplay them passably, and know which numbers to add to which dice without any help.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.
Emptyquote
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Not to speak for Lilith but I believe her point was. Stop making gender the main or even a major issue. Do guys and girl approach gaming differently? Some times sure.
I believe her point was treat women like any other new gamer and make her feel welcome. That is the most important issue and that shouldn't be a gender issue.
The only true gender issue I can think of is. Don't make it feel like a boys only club. But that goes along with making the new player feel welcome, regardless of gender.
I think you pretty much nailed it Dark_Mistress. :D
Now, the flip side.
Women, if you're playing in a D&D game, .
If something isn't working, if nerd boy is awkwardly flirting with you, if you don't understand something, speak up. Do not sit there passively and wait for someone to notice your discomfort. Do not come to two sessions, then drop out without telling people what isn't working and why.
Yes, I know, it's difficult. You've had somewhere between 14 and 40 years of being acculturated to send out subtle signals that someone will pick up and act on. You don't want to be the negative person who criticizes, because you empathize with how hard it is to take that guff.
Get. Over. It.
The way a game table works is that people do, in fact, communicate. And they do so explicitly.
They don't do it by trying to sigh quietly when initiative is rolled, because now people stop talking, and everyone starts mathing in tongues.
Sighing quietly at a game table is like trying to sigh quietly at a rock concert. Be loud, have fun, and accept that yeah, you're playing a game, and that the game won't be tailored explicitly to you. The GM has to keep everyone entertained.
The thing that I have seen that differentiates women who come to games, and women who PLAY games is communications ability.
(I'm figuring it's about 60/40 that a male poster will object to this advice within 10 posts of me making this one.)
Now, for the guys:
Yeah. She's a chick. She's got boobs. She doesn't think with them. She's here to learn the game, she's here to have fun. She is not here for you to make cutting comments about, hit on, flirt with, make awkward jokes, or feel superior to because you have every feat every published in 3.5 memorized.
Yes. There's something novel and new here. You don't have to piss all over it to prove your alpha male tendencies. Yes, I know, you want to. At last there is something in the hierarchical pack that might be lower than you.
Get. Over. It.
(I still want to see a production by The Gamers modeled off of the Dog Whisperer about introducing new gamers to the group...)
First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the wives, fiancés, girlfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We men realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you women bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
Now on to the topic at hand. Namely, why don't you like this game? And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest? We, as your loving spouses, love to see you happy, and having fun. We also love slaying monsters, finding sweet loot, becoming heroes, and discussing the finer points of gnome tossing with mid-air enlarge person. Why can't these two things we love co-exist?
I realize that my target audience is not likely to be lurking these forums anytime soon, so I turn my question over to the greater Pathfinder and rpg community.
Fellow GMs,what have you noticed that works/doesn't work to incorporate your more hesitant female players?
Lady players, what first enticed you to the game, and what keeps you playing now?
Perhaps we can gain some enlightenment into this age old question.
There are some pretty major assumptions in the question, and I can tell that it's been your personal experience that women don't play RPGs, so you assume it's just not done. Since the present company has proven that assumption to be wrong, the real issue isn't directly addressed in that part of your post. I'm inferring from the rest of your post that you're not asking how to attract female gamers to your group. It sounds to me that you're asking how to get one particular woman, your wife, interested in gaming. And in that regard, I think you're STILL misplacing your question. Since you know your wife better than anyone on the boards, it's unlikely anyone reading your post, even the women, will be able to tell you how to get your wife into gaming.
Different people get different things out of games. You're in the best position to know what aspects of the hobby will appeal to your wife. You can get all kinds of answers from the women who post here, and it's possible that none of them are the draw that will get her interested in the hobby. It's possible that nothing will. It's also possible that whatever will eventually draw her in hasn't been, and won't be mentioned by any of the experiences shared here.
So it's more up to you to find out from her what will interest her, and see if you can appeal to that to draw her in. If she's just not interested in games, I think it's unlikely you'll find an RPG partner there. But plenty of people get along for decades with totally different hobbies, so it's probably OK.
Wow, I feel as if I've stirred up a hornet's nest. Not my intention at all. Perhaps I should preface my original post.
I've been rping for about 5-6 years now. I enjoy it immensely. My girlfriend of several years, who happens to be the most patient and compassionate person I know, recently started attending these sessions with me. I believe she initially just wanted to try to get involved in some of the things I'm passionate about, just as I do for her (I'm not a big fan of photography, but I could lecture you for hours about ISO settings and white balance).
Anyways, things initially started out okay. Aasimar appealed to her, as did the cleric. But after playing a few sessions as a wallflower healer type, the disinterest really started to settle in. She was overwhelmed by the rules, and every time her initiative came up, or every time it was her turn to be the party's face (high Cha and all), she kind of shut down and gave me a blank stare. Switching to a melée focused cleric who chops fools up with a great sword helped a little, but I fear that she's only a few slow sessions away from giving up on the hobby entirely.
I love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife, but I really would like to find a way to get her as passionate about gaming as I am. I realize that some people just don't take to it as well as others, but I believe there's a middle ground here.
I guess what I'm asking for is character classes, campaign ideas, adventure hooks, and encounters that wIll resonate more with a female gamer such as my girlfriend. If I could suggest some of these things to our GM, I'm sure he would work them in and hopefully recapture her interest.
Sorry for the long-winded post, I just felt the need to clarify that I'm not looking for tips on how to score some Pathfinder nookie :)
Are you asking how to get your female partner to TRY pathfinder? Does she like beer? Seriously, tell her why YOU like the game. Is it sitting around with friends making bad jokes? Escapism? Rules-lawyering and figuring out how to break the game? If your joy comes through, she's more likely to give it a try than if you just parrot back whatever someone tells you women are supposed to like.
Once she's playing, make sure that your group's advice doesn't segue into commands. It's okay to say, "If you move here, you'll get flank," or to warn her if she's going to provoke an AOO, but do it after she decides whether or who to attack. You want her to feel like a player, not a cohort. Give her time to look at her character sheet when she's asked what her AC is, or to make a save. There is a TON of text on them, and remember that you've been playing long enough you know how to scan and where to look; she's new, she doesn't. This is all stuff that you should do with ANY new player, but women are more likely conditioned to accept others' decisions, to be talked over, and to be seen as particularly incompetent.
Lastly, there ARE some things which have made me feel uncomfortable specifically because I am female. One guy I used to play with often played SEXY! SLUTTY! LESBIAN! characters, and I will never understand male gamers' fascination with fictional prostitutes. This was less an issue of intimidation and more one of vague annoyance at mens' disconnect with womens' reality. (In other words, it reminds me of Bad Stuff from the real world, which is depressing.) For similar reasons, I dislike it when female characters (even npcs) in game are always being threatened with kidnap, rape, targeted specifically because they're female, and so on. I will say that most groups -- even most male-except-for-me groups who make rape jokes about other characters, do not do this.
Lastly, warn her about the farting. What IS it with the farting? Why do male gamers seem to love farting almost as much as redheaded lesbian prostitutes? (See what I did there, what with the insulting stereotype of all of one gender? Don't do that.)
My girlfriend of several years,
Oops, sorry. Replace everywhere I said "wife" in my above post with "girlfriend."
Good luck!
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Bryan Bloomer from your second post, I am guessing she has a passing interest in your hobby but might not be interested in RPing. But maybe she is, from what you have said there is no way to know for sure so far.
Now with that said, I will say from your second post it seems to me the issue is more. She is a new player, doesn't fully understand things and feels completely overwhelmed and out of her depth.
My advice is ask her to play some one on one adventures with you... get your mind out of the gutter. :)
Get some of the one on one adventures from Expeditious Retreat Press, you can adapt most of them for any class with a little work. Then you can run her threw a few of them or even better make your own stuff up. Talk to her find out what she likes in gaming so far and then make your adventures focus on those things. Play with her and stop to not just answer rules questions but explain them. Or better yet let her(or help her) look the rules up and read them herself. Then she will learn the game and get better and feel better about playing it. This will build her confidence up and let her explore gaming in what she will likely find a comfortable way.
Doing that and she should get more out spoken with the main group and enjoy it more.
The above advice is what I have found that works best for any new gamer if you can. It is just easier to do with someone you live with obviously. :)
Ok, Cleric is one of the most difficult classes for a newbe. There is too much to focus on and it sounds like she is getting overwhelmed by the options and the rules associated with those options. First and foremost, you need to make sure she has a point to shine and knows when she is currently the star. Do not let other players tell her what to do at these points, and get them to shut up if you can.
Don't pressure her with awkward social situations just because she has the high charisma. Let her sit back while someone else does the majority of the talking and then slowly work her into the conversation by asking her what she thinks. Throwing her into the deep end can be cruel, especially if she is the type to become a deer in the headlights. On the other end, if you have a really dominant player at your table make sure he shuts up long enough for her to speak and say everything she wants to. Wait for her, and be patient. SHe may just be thinking of how to phrase what she wants to say, and then be cut off by your next statement before she gets what she wants out. When she is thinking, DO NOT STARE AT HER. This will make her uncomfortable, like she is holding everything up.
Help her set up a standard spell selection. Somewhere arround here there was a thread about spell selection for someone in exactly the same shoes (I think it was their wife). A condensed spell list that has already trimmed out the stuff that is more situational is a good start, and keep with it a bried description of what it does. Not mechanically what it does. Just what the spell does. Divine Favor: makes it easier to hit stuff, self only. Shield of Faith: makes anyone harder to hit, touch. Also put on it who it can target and how close range it is.
Get her que cards for the buffs she gives out. Index cards or sticky notes work for this. This way it is really obvious which spells she has out and what they are doing. Its easier to see how you are affecting the team and for a new player to not forget their random bonuses when they are sitting right out in front of people. I recomend everyone does this with their buffs and debuffs.
Make sure the stuff is calculated on her sheet, but also make it clear where each number comes from. It doesn't help to just have +5 to hit next to her primary weapon, have +5 hit (+3 BAB, +2 Str (make sure these are labeled))
As others have said, don't use acronyms until she gets confortable with them. Slow down your conversation arround the table and try to keep it light on the terminology until she has the hang of it. Do not make her feel like she is intentionally slowing you guys down and is somehow at fault.
Be careful giving her advice on what to do. DO NOT TELL HER SHE MUST/SHOULD DO SOMETHING, with the exception, perhaps, of healing a critical ally (then just point out that her friend is near dead and she can heal him, do not tell her she should). If she is not making her own decisions, she will feel like you are making them for her and wonder why she bothered to try to play. If she asks for advice, try to give her multiple options so she can choose. This will make her feel like she has more power and has options to think about. It will also teach her the types of things to look for in multiple situations.
I know this is long, I hope it helps.
I love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife...
I don't think you meant fot that to sound the way it does.
Any way. My best advice would be don't push it. If she's not having fun don't push her to keep going. The more time you spend trying to make it work the more she's gonna feel like she's letting you down if she decides she doesn't want to play. Trust me nobody wants to be at the table if even one person there doesn't want to be there.
Just ask her. If she wants to keep playing work with her to help her at the table, if she doesn't want to play let it go.
My girlfriend enjoys playing, but she also enjoys getting away from me for a few hours every week, so she's always on the fence about playing or not.
Lastly, warn her about the farting. What IS it with the farting? Why do male gamers seem to love farting almost as much as redheaded lesbian prostitutes?...
Farting is hilarious, the whole concept of farting is the most pure form of absurdist humour. Gas comes out of your bum with a thawpy sound and it smells bad. If you are really talented you can ignite it with a zippo and get a ball of blue flame. What's not to find funny about that. Its discomfort, embarrassment, bad manners and a potential fire hazard rolled into one.
I do think the lesbian thing is a bit of a sterotype......
I love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife...I don't think you meant fot that to sound the way it does.
Any way. My best advice would be don't push it. If she's not having fun don't push her to keep going. The more time you spend trying to make it work the more she's gonna feel like she's letting you down if she decides she doesn't want to play. Trust me nobody wants to be at the table if even one person there doesn't want to be there.
Just ask her. If she wants to keep playing work with her to help her at the table, if she doesn't want to play let it go.
My girlfriend enjoys playing, but she also enjoys getting away from me for a few hours every week, so she's always on the fence about playing or not.
This is also very true. You do not want her to get angry or resentful over it. I have a bunch of friends whose wives used to play but decided to stop. It doesn't have to end your gaming, though it may reduce it some. Game night becomes a great time for her to hang out with her other friends that your not too fond of while they do whatever they want to do. I have yet to meet a girl who has the same conversations with with their male friends and female friends, and likewise with men. I know game night is margarietta night for 1 of my friend's wives. Annother picks his wife up from the club after game. Just saying, interests do not have to match perfectly, and its not the end of the world.
I believe her point was treat women like any other new gamer and make her feel welcome. That is the most important issue and that shouldn't be a gender issue.
The only true gender issue I can think of is. Don't make it feel like a boys only club. But that goes along with making the new player feel welcome, regardless of gender.
I have to disagree. Gender is an issue.
For those thinking that MMOs are making it easier to attract women to gaming, you might consider how much sexual harassment occurs in MMOs and online communities. After exposure to the "t!t$ or GTFO" meme, would you be eager to sit down in a game store with a bunch of strangers? Basically, that kind of thing makes it hard for the tabletop game to add people outside of word of mouth and knowing the people at the table.
I agree that treating people like intelligent human beings is the solution, but I'm afraid that sexism is the reason why that's not a given at all tables.
I've been rping for about 5-6 years now. I enjoy it immensely. My girlfriend of several years, who happens to be the most patient and compassionate person I know, recently started attending these sessions with me. I believe she initially just wanted to try to get involved in some of the things I'm passionate about, just as I do for herI love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife, but I really would like to find a way to get her as passionate about gaming as I am. I realize that some people just don't take to it as well as others, but I believe there's a middle ground here.
Sorry for the long-winded post, I just felt the need to clarify that I'm not looking for tips on how to score some Pathfinder nookie :)
You, sir, are missing a huge opportunity. Do what I do and DM a game JUST FOR YOUR GIRL. She's the only PC. It's together time. You can go at her pace and she can't be a wall flower. You can gear the game exactly to her interests and skill level. And you would not believe the fringe benefits of immersive role play. (In short: you should want to score some Pathfinder nookie! It's your girlfriend!)
If you want help on how to run a 1 PC campaign, start a separate thread and I can share my experiences, as will others.
I tell this to my female friends and they b#~~% at me and tell me I'm sexist for not recognising the years of discrimination they have faced... You can't win.And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.This is very true.
On one hand, we're told not to treat them any different from everybody else.
On the other hand, you can't treat most women as 'one of the guys' or you'll run into a whole different slew of problems.
I've been blessed in that the most of the women who've gamed with me have already considered themselves 'one of the guys' (so far in a feminine way, not in a "I want to be a man instead" way, although I'm sure those would fit in just as well) so it hasn't really been an issue, but there have been a few exceptions, and it never ends well.
I don't think I understand why the distinction between the two contexts is so mystifying. On the one hand, most people, women included, would like to be treated as equals and individuals first, not as Interchangeable Members of a Socially Disadvantaged (or Rarely Spotted Around the Gaming Table) Group. This is the sense in which we want to be treated the same. On the other hand, affording everyone equal consideration doesn't actually eliminate the social disadvantages and indignities some people experience. This is the sense in which we may want the particular facets of our experience as women to be taken into account. If you had a friend who was, say, a war refugee, you'd want to show respect for his individuality, his intelligence, his adulthood *and* his past experience.
Not all women are anything like refugees, of course, and probably many of us experience sexism in a kind of casual, accustomed, day-to-day, we're-used-to-it kind of way that doesn't always deal blunt force psychological trauma. But we totally may have experiences, as women, that continue to be relevant facts to those that wish to befriend us.
Speaking for myself alone, that last bit is actually an important consideration. So far, I game with my friends. I started to game because my friends were going to game. Now I like to game for itself in addition to enjoying my friends' company, but if I were to move and needed a new group, I would still make friends first and suggest gaming with them second. I'm sure this isn't any kind of a general rule for all women - especially since it seems like plenty of women volunteer for spontaneous games at Cons or over the internet - but so far I am only willing to role play within an existing bond of friendship and trust. This is partly because I have the most fun with my friends, but also partly because... well, my favorite time to be around lots of men is not always when they are competing with one another. There are competitive persons across genders, of course, but I've had more unpleasant experiences with men jockeying for recognition than I have while among women. If I can trust my friends to foster a spirit of teamwork at the table, I'm much more likely to be willing to join in. But I'm going to get bored really fast if guys are bragging about their (imaginary!) attributes. If I am concerned that contention and machismo may define the scene, I am more likely to stay away, lest I should commit to joining an activity that ultimately distresses and bothers me. (And it may seem unfair to judge prematurely, but it's not always easy to explain that you think a behavior is impolite and counter-productive, when the others around you have a different perspective and see it as normal. It can be kinder just to stay away and let your boyfriend behave the way he wants to around his own friends).
So, yeah. I think it's probably the case that every person wants to game with people he/she trusts to some degree. But the parameters of that trust are probably different for different people and established in different ways. Maybe that's what's missing some of the times that women say, 'No, thanks.'
Also, earlier posters have mentioned objectification in role-playing art. The fact that Seoni wears clothes designed to appeal mainly to male readers, rather than clothes designed to survive the elements/melee combat, is not itself enough to keep me away from the game, LOL. (As a noob, my final decision to purchase the Core Rulebook, not just borrow it at intervals, was influenced by the overall beauty of the art. I felt that it would be a book I'd enjoy looking at, not just a book that would tell me lots of rules). I am used to women's bodies being used to sell all manner of things; role playing is just one more. But speaking as just one woman, that art does sometimes rather send me a message that the product is not really intended to invite me in.
It's not a deficiency in counter-objectification to which I refer. (Valeros can be hot all he wants to be; I don't think it actually changes much about gender roles in fantasy context). What I have in mind is more the following: the Core Rulebook has male characters that are old, ugly, stocky, wizened, short, ecccentric-looking, be-tuskened, and, for lack of a better word, dwarves. All of these characters look like they'd be fun to play. The female characters are all young and conventionally attractive (though I do rather like that they are diverse in their attractiveness). Some of them also look fun to play, but it seems like the first thought was that they be fun to look at. I'd really like to see female dwarves, halflings and half-orcs, not just the so-called 'pretty races' (am super excited to see the final Inquisitor for the APG!) because, well, a) I actually think drawings of odd-looking women *can* be enjoyable to look at, and b) it sends the message that female characters bring a lot to the game, even if they lack sex appeal. If I imagine the fantasy world of gamers as one where the women are primarily valued as eye candy, well, I feel a little out of place. I don't look like that. And even if I did, I wouldn't want that to be the governing fact of my relationship with my gaming pals. I'm not saying it would be, or that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook actually says GIRLS KEEP OUT ('SPECIALLY UGLY ONES!!!1!1). Of course it doesn't. I'm sure the fine folks at Paizo respect women and want them to feel included. But the fantasy tradition at large is saying, 'Look at Harsk's badass scowl; he seems like a really memorable character!' 'Look at Lem's about-fifty awesome belts! What an eccentric, belt-wearing guy, that Lem!' And then... 'Look at Seoni's boobies, what a memorable... boobies!'
It can be awkward for a girl, y'know?
Dear Women of the Boards:
I tried sticking my Core Rulebook inside of her Louis Vuitton purse. I felt they complemented each other well, and that upon looking to see what was in her bag, the appearance of such a large, beautiful book, unexpectedly, could not but help draw her gamewards. Instead, she said something most unlady-like about putting my "stupid" game books in her purse. Please advise.
Signed,
Subtly hinting in Big D
Dear Women of the Boards:
I tried sticking my Core Rulebook inside of her Louis Vuitton purse. I felt they complemented each other well, and that upon looking to see what was in her bag, the appearance of such a large, beautiful book, unexpectedly, could not but help draw her gamewards. Instead, she said something most unlady-like about putting my "stupid" game books in her purse. Please advise.
Signed,
Subtly hinting in Big D
Dear "Subtle,"
There's your problem. Next time, hit her in the head with a brick, tie her to a chair at the gaming table, teach her math with flash cards, and don't let her eat until she RP's her way into ordering a pint and a haunch at your favorite tavern. She'll love it!
B.A.
Dear Mr. (?) Ass:
My wife is an accountant. Trying to teach her math would be life endangering for me. I like your other suggestions, and am acquiring rope, as I feel it might be useful in multiple areas.
Signed,
Getting Excited in Big D
Dear Mr. (?) Ass:
My wife is an accountant. Trying to teach her math would be life endangering for me. I like your other suggestions, and am acquiring rope, as I feel it might be useful in multiple areas.
Signed,
Getting Excited in Big D
Yeah, it's always nice to be able to climb a tree when your plan fails. The rope means you can get into taller trees!
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Dear Women of the Boards:
I tried sticking my Core Rulebook inside of her Louis Vuitton purse. I felt they complemented each other well, and that upon looking to see what was in her bag, the appearance of such a large, beautiful book, unexpectedly, could not but help draw her gamewards. Instead, she said something most unlady-like about putting my "stupid" game books in her purse. Please advise.
Signed,
Subtly hinting in Big D
You opened her purse and she let you live? You have a very understanding wife.
Dear Women of the Boards:
I tried sticking my Core Rulebook inside of her Louis Vuitton purse. I felt they complemented each other well, and that upon looking to see what was in her bag, the appearance of such a large, beautiful book, unexpectedly, could not but help draw her gamewards. Instead, she said something most unlady-like about putting my "stupid" game books in her purse. Please advise.
Signed,
Subtly hinting in Big D
Man, I wish large, beautiful books would unexpectedly appear in my purse. Of course, even if they did, I might not do what they said.