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Just trying to get a couple things about poison down pat.
I poison someone with Purple Worm poison. Do they make a save immediately or at the beginning of their turn? We've always run it where the save is immediate but I'm wondering if that is right.
The reason I'm thinking it might be at the beginning of their turn is because it's possible for them to get multiple doses in the same round by different opponents and the effects are supposed to stack.
So back to the purple worm poison. You hit twice and they fail their save (DC 26 now) now suppose you hit them again, the save ramps up to 28 now correct?
Purple work poison has 2 saves. If they get dosed, make their initial save then they get re-poisoned, do the 2 saves start over? Does the DC continue to ramp and the 2 saves get reset with each new dose?
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Just trying to get a couple things about poison down pat.
I poison someone with Purple Worm poison. Do they make a save immediately or at the beginning of their turn? We've always run it where the save is immediate but I'm wondering if that is right.
The reason I'm thinking it might be at the beginning of their turn is because it's possible for them to get multiple doses in the same round by different opponents and the effects are supposed to stack.
So back to the purple worm poison. You hit twice and they fail their save (DC 26 now) now suppose you hit them again, the save ramps up to 28 now correct?
Purple work poison has 2 saves. If they get dosed, make their initial save then they get re-poisoned, do the 2 saves start over? Does the DC continue to ramp and the 2 saves get reset with each new dose?
The way I personally run things is upon the initial poisoning a save is made to see if you contract it at all. If you fail you take the penalty. Next time it has a frequency you get another save, coupled with the added DC, and if you fail again, you suffer the penalty again. Rinse / repeat.
As far as "re-contracting" the poison I would give the player a blanket effect +4 bonus as his body already worked through it recently. I would limit this effect to once per combat however.
I hope this helped somehow, I will be on for a little longer if you want to bounce ideas though.
The name of this thread rocks, and I love the Alice Cooper motif this thread currently has.
for rules questions, I always assumed that the saves reset if re-poisoned, unless stated otherwise in the poison description, and they must save at the start of their next round, for realism, as to let the poison travel through their blood stream.
I think you are pretty sound on the DCs.
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The way I personally run things is upon the initial poisoning a save is made to see if you contract it at all. If you fail you take the penalty. Next time it has a frequency you get another save, coupled with the added DC, and if you fail again, you suffer the penalty again. Rinse / repeat.
This considerably weakens the advantage of the 2 saving throw poisons, I'm not sure I care for that idea. It also seems to go against the bit in the book where it talks about multiple spiders biting ramping up the DCs. Hmm
As far as "re-contracting" the poison I would give the player a blanket effect +4 bonus as his body already worked through it recently. I would limit this effect to once per combat however.
I hope this helped somehow, I will be on for a little longer if you want to bounce ideas though.
Well here's the thing, I'm dealing with this from both sides of the table and from both sides of the poisoning. As I GM I am generally generous to players on things like this. As a player I don't want to be generous to critters.
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The name of this thread rocks, and I love the Alice Cooper motif this thread currently has.
I'm not a huge Cooper fan but I like that song well enough and it's better than referencing the hair band by the name.
for rules questions, I always assumed that the saves reset if re-poisoned, unless stated otherwise in the poison description, and they must save at the start of their next round, for realism, as to let the poison travel through their blood stream.
I think you are pretty sound on the DCs.
Sounds like you pretty much agree with my initial take on this stuff.
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We just went through this the other night as well Ogre. I explained to my players that you make the save at the beginning of your next turn because there is the chance you can get dosed again by the same poison in the same round. They, or more specifically my most vocal player thought that was dumb and made poisons weak (for him).
I believe this is really the only way to run poisons otherwise if you make the save immediately and get dosed again later in the same round the DC and durations could never increase because you'd never be poisoned in the first place. Perhaps this will be clarified in either the GMG or the upcoming FAQ.
--Vrock my Socks off!
I asked this before I think, and got the response that unless the save says immediately then the first save is on the player's turn. This would allow you to full attack with poison and make the first save suck. 5 doses on a full attack (THF + Rapid Shot + shuriken) turns even some of those pathetic DC 12 poisons pretty nasty in the mid levels. The other way doesn't succeed in the goal of reducing rolls at the table either.
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We just went through this the other night as well Ogre. I explained to my players that you make the save at the beginning of your next turn because there is the chance you can get dosed again by the same poison in the same round. They, or more specifically my most vocal player thought that was dumb and made poisons weak (for him).
I believe this is really the only way to run poisons otherwise if you make the save immediately and get dosed again later in the same round the DC and durations could never increase because you'd never be poisoned in the first place. Perhaps this will be clarified in either the GMG or the upcoming FAQ.
This is more or less my conclusion as well, it's not really clear in the first rules and I think we are all more or less used to the 3.5 way where you get attacked and roll the save immediately. I think I'm going to start treating poisoned almost as a condition you impose.
Now as for re-dosing, any thoughts?
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I asked this before I think, and got the response that unless the save says immediately then the first save is on the player's turn. This would allow you to full attack with poison and make the first save suck. 5 doses on a full attack (THF + Rapid Shot + shuriken) turns even some of those pathetic DC 12 poisons pretty nasty in the mid levels. The other way doesn't succeed in the goal of reducing rolls at the table either.
I've heard this suggested before and it's a good idea but gets expensive in a hurry the alchemist's sticky poison ability makes it more reasonable.
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So a Monk wins initiative opening with a flurry of greenblood oiled shuriken hitting Mr. Wizard twice sometime in round one. Everyone finishes round 1. Before Mr. Wizard turn, the monk tumbles his way up and slashes him again with his similarly poisoned kama. So now Mr. Wizard has 3 doses of Greenblood oil which adds up to Fort save DC 17.
If Mr. Wizard succeeds on his initial Fort save he is not poisoned by any of the 3 doses. Any additional poisoning attempts reset to their baseline, et al.
So if Mr. Wizard fails he takes 1 Con damage and must now make a save 1/ round for 8 rounds (4+2+2). In the subsequent rounds if he is still failing the save another dose would up the current DC by +2 and increase the length by half the base again. Making one save after the initial at DC 17 would end the poisoning and reset later attempts.
--Hemvrock: ingested 18 10 min. 1/min. for 6 min. 1d6 Dex, see text 2 saves 2,500 gp
I asked this before I think, and got the response that unless the save says immediately then the first save is on the player's turn. This would allow you to full attack with poison and make the first save suck. 5 doses on a full attack (THF + Rapid Shot + shuriken) turns even some of those pathetic DC 12 poisons pretty nasty in the mid levels. The other way doesn't succeed in the goal of reducing rolls at the table either.I've heard this suggested before and it's a good idea but gets expensive in a hurry the alchemist's sticky poison ability makes it more reasonable.
Yeah, there are a bunch of threads already addressing this on poison. Its mentioned in the many crafting threads that were popular a couple months ago. My personal favorite solution is to reduce poison costs to 10%, so the price listed is silver. 10 gp for 1 dose of what ammounts to rat poison is still a lot though IMO.
As for multiple doses, I would handle it just like the books says. Each time the person gets a new dose, up the durration again by half the orriginal and boost the save DC needed by 2. I wouldn't roll until the players turn. If you want to keep it the way it is in 3.5 with rolling at injection, I would force a roll for each dose until 1 is failed, but increase each new dose by 2. This is worse for the player, but poisons are slightly weaker in this system than in 3.5, its been proven in some of the other poison threads. Until you get multiple doses in and have a very long durration, you don't exceed the expected damage from 3.5 poisons, and then your still taking more time.
Alternatively, when they make their first check for the poison, you keep track of it, and if the doses they take would cause the DC to go higher than their roll then they are poisoned. This seems like more work though.
Not sure if people noticed this part of the rules when making their judgment, but poisons for weapons are not as powerful as people are trying to make them (emphasis mine):
Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once.
I realize that this contradicts the example:
For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
So in the end, I'm confused because I'm not sure which rule to follow: the example or the explicit rule. When in doubt though, I usually follow explicit rules over examples.
I think your highlighted passage just means that you cannot triple coat your weapon in poison and then hit someone, doing all three bits of poison. However, three doses in your wine is three doses in your system.
I think your highlighted passage just means that you cannot triple coat your weapon in poison and then hit someone, doing all three bits of poison. However, three doses in your wine is three doses in your system.
Ah, that does make more sense. You have to look at the sentence from the inflicting perspective. Not the receiving perspective. I stand corrected. Thank you!
Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once.
I read the sentence in this way: you can pour multiple doses of poison in the drink of somebody (for example), in order to force him to make a save with a higher DC. For example, Id moss has a DC of 14 for a single dose, but you can 'flavour' a dish with 3 doses in order to raise the DC to 18.
Injury and contact poison, on the other hand, can deliver a single dose for each single injury or contact, no matter how many doses you pour on the blade that delivers the injury. This is balanced by the fact that you can deliver multiple injuries, and by consequence, rise the DC pretty fast.
In the end, the two effects balance each other - a single poisoned dish can contain multiple doses of poison to rise the DC, while a poisoned blade can deliver multiple 'weaker' poisoned strikes (single dose each) which, in the end, would still rise the DC.
Just my 2c.
EDIT: Ninjae'd by Ethalin.
While not able to put three doses of poison on a single blade, you can apply one dose to three blades and use TWF in conjunction with quick draw as I have done in the past. Good for multi-weapon fighter or roque types to knock down attributes in enemies.