
Bezecny |
I'm DM a campaign, and new to pathfinder. I was being told from my freinds that my new player who is a rogue at lvl 10 w/ a base attack of 7/2, w/ two weapon fight and improve two weapon get to have 4 backstab roll if all 4 hit attacks hit, it that true? seems a little over powered. This same rogue wants to pick up cleave or even greater cleave so he can get AoE backstab if his enemies are root spell, or hold spell from the mage or cleric. Again if that true, this would be "crazy" broken. The rogue jumping in the middle of a 7+ more mobs, whirling backstabing all of them.

kyrt-ryder |
I'm DM a campaign, and new to pathfinder. I was being told from my freinds that my new player who is a rogue at lvl 10 w/ a base attack of 7/2, w/ two weapon fight and improve two weapon get to have 4 backstab roll if all 4 hit attacks hit, it that true? seems a little over powered. This same rogue wants to pick up cleave or even greater cleave so he can get AoE backstab if his enemies are root spell, or hold spell from the mage or cleric. Again if that true, this would be "crazy" broken. The rogue jumping in the middle of a 7+ more mobs, whirling backstabing all of them.
The game is designed for the rogues to be doing all of that damage 90% of the time. That's why the restrictions were taken off of Undead and Constructs being sneak attacked.
If you were to run the Math (it's been done several times on these boards) you would see that a Straight Fighter will usually outdamage a sneak attacking rogue, while having Higher HP and Higher Hitpoints.

ProfessorCirno |

Backstab no longer does the same damage it did in second edition. Sneak attack is a static amount of damage dealt in each attack non-dependent on your weapon.
As others have said, the game is quite balanced towards the rogues indeed getting their sneak attack in.
Incidentally, entangle would not allow for sneak attacks. I'm not sure about Hold <Whatever> though.

DrowVampyre |

Also, the chances of more than 1 or 2 enemies being held/paralyzed/etc. at the same time is...slim at best. And that rogue would have a very, very bad day if he hopped into the middle of an enemy group and they weren't all effectively helpless. Not to mention they all have to be in his reach to hit with whirlwind, and even if they are, he only would get a single hit on all of them at best.
Besides, if they're all helpless for whatever reason, a single fireball will do the same or more damage over a much larger area.

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Welcome into the fold! We will help you with anything that we can help you with! :)
Backstab was not renewed in 3rd edition and beyond and was replaced with a similar sounding ability called Sneak Attack.
Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Clarification: Incorporeal creatures, oozes, swarms, and elementals (air/earth/fire/water) cannot be sneak attacked. It also appears that swarms can not be sneak attacked.
Also, the use of Cleave or Great Cleave is a standard action in the Pathfinder RPG and will more then likely lower rather then raise the amount of attacks your rogue friend is allowed to make if it changes it at all. The Whirlwind Attack feat might offer more potential of this scenario but will probably be limited in effectiveness in most fights given what is required for both sneak attack and where people are standing.
Hope that helps a little bit!

Bezecny |
Yes, I have a form of Dyslexia, so reading rules and and understanding the context of the wording can be tough. Which my player might also have misread that rules, like a lvl 10 bard give out a buff for +5 to attacks/DMG, two weapon fighting gives one extra attack to each base attack, or if you get a crit on a manyshot, both shots are crits if the first comfirms. Which I did let go since that are new to this campaign( we played lvl 1 to 10 on a 3.5 ) and new to pathfinder, just to make things go smoothy, and get a baseline of the new players.
When I read that phapgraph about " Sneak Attack " not backstab. I was looking at the attack from " If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack," or, " The rogue's attack deals extra damage ...." I interpret that as if when the rogue attacks and he hits when the target is denied Dex AC, he get a Sneak Attack. I wish the authors would have reword that bit, such as making thw word attack plural. Or each attack that hits have is a sneak attack.
I told my player Rogue was dreaming if I was going to let him do that w/great cleave or whirlwind.
Thanks for the quick replays, and it does make sense.

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well with cleave the both the enemies still have to be flat footed or flanked, so the rogue shouldn't have the easiest time pulling that off. same with whirlwind.
also, i hope you aren't making the rogue actually be behind the target. that is gimping them severely IMHO. They just have to be flanking or cating the enemy denied their dex bonus
also with rapid shot only the first arrow crits on a crit,
When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack
so arrow #1 deals crit damage, arrow #2 deals normal damage

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It's no big deal - rogues can sneak attack everything they can sneak attack. Meaning that if the circumstances are right for it (i.e. denied dex bonus to AC, flanked, or helpless) every attack is a sneak attack.
Just wait till you play a monk/rogue yosshopper, then you will know the true meaning of the term, sneak attack damage.

Lathiira |

also with rapid shot only the first arrow crits on a crit,
Quote:When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attackso arrow #1 deals crit damage, arrow #2 deals normal damage
Actually, that's Manyshot, not Rapid Shot.
Rapid Shot (Combat)
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
But yes, if conditions permit, a rogue can sneak attack with every single attack in a round. Your 10th level rogue with Improved 2-Weapon Fighting could theoretically land 4 sneak attacks, each for normal weapon damage +5d6. He's unlikely to get every attack to hit, however. Even if he does, that's an average of 18 points (rounded up) extra damage per sneak attack, or 72 points total (rounded) plus weapon damage. Look at the kinds of creatures you'd fight at 10th level. The rogue's going to be busy chopping those things down....