By RAW humans only have Common as an automatic language.
In Golarion Taldane (Common) is not the only human language. All human nations have local languages. Can it be that none of these humans know their own native language unless they take a rank in Linguistics, since the default automatic language is Taldane?
As I see it humans should automatically know their native language + common, but I cannot find any posts/rules that support humans speaking anything else than Common, which in Golarion is absurd!
If you want to imagine an enclave of Taldane speaking humans in a non Taldane speaking country.
Most people will take common to mean whats... common.
Sigurd
Can it be that none of these humans know their own native language unless they take a rank in Linguistics, since the default automatic language is Taldane?
You know, that's the way I had always assumed the rules went. Then I joined PBPs on this website, and found a GM that corrected me. That GM assumed that a human PC knew not only the common language of the campaign's region, but also the common language of the PC's native region! I soon milked that idea for all it was worth.
If you want to imagine an enclave of Taldane speaking humans in a non Taldane speaking country.
Most people will take common to mean whats... common.
Sigurd
Take for instance a character originating from Osirion or the Mwangi Expanse that cannot speak Osiriani or Polyglot... that makes no sense.
On the other hand if they do not speak Taldane they are severely handicapped. At least as far as organized play is concerned.
Can it be that none of these humans know their own native language unless they take a rank in Linguistics, since the default automatic language is Taldane?You know, that's the way I had always assumed the rules went. Then I joined PBPs on this website, and found a GM that corrected me. That GM assumed that a human PC knew not only the common language of the campaign's region, but also the common language of the PC's native region! I soon milked that idea for all it was worth.
Curious, because I've always assumed the other way around; that is, a race knows as automatic language ONLY the language shown for each of them (Polyglot for Mwangi, Common for Chelaxians and Taldan, Dwarven for Dwarves, and so on). All other languages must be taken either through exceptional Intelligence (12+) or the Linguistic skill.
At least, this is the feeling that the 'Language' entry for each races (pages 6-39 of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting) gives me.
Just my 2c.
EDIT: just a question, shouldn't be better if this thread would be moved in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting section ?
I've always imagined Common to be a more guttural version of English (or the common language spoken). Simpler.
Like in Idiocracy. A hybrid of hillbilly, valleygirl, inner-city slang and various grunts.
I mean, this is something that Goblins should be able to understand...
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So a local language for Human would be more closer to what we speak right now, with regional dialects, etc.
Common would be the guttural, simplistic language.
Which is why (as they say in Idiocracy), elves might sound "pompous and faggy" to those that only knew Common, etc.
I would assume that Common is assumed to be the native language in the core rules. If a human character was from somewhere with a different native language, I would replace Common with their native tongue.
Then learning Common would require an additional language slot.
I would assume that Common is assumed to be the native language in the core rules. If a human character was from somewhere with a different native language, I would replace Common with their native tongue.
Then learning Common would require an additional language slot.
And this is why it is not so. Does it break reality? Yes, it does, but I have played in campaigns where not everyone spoke a common tongue and it got to be a pain in the arse rather quickly. My suggestion, Houserule all humans a bonus language slot so they can have their regional language. It's great for flavor and roleplay opportunities, but don't take away Common as an automatic language.
It gets more complicated when you consider that one's language can also be influenced by one's class and social standing.
For example, Latin was the language of the common man in the Roman Empire, but nobles and government officials spoke ancient Greek. When the Senate met, that's what they spoke. So one had to learn how to speak, as well as read and write a foreign language in order to get a government job.
Right up until the twentieth century French was the language of diplomacy, if you wanted to be a diplomat (and in fact if you wanted to be considered in any way educated) you had to learn French. At various points in history most of the royal courts of Europe would only speak French.
So imagine your PCs get an audience with the King, show up in court, discover that everyone is speaking Elven (bonus points if the only PC who speaks Elven is the Elf rogue for whom charisma was a dump stat), and are mocked/dismissed accordingly.
Extra bonus points if after everyone in the party learns Elven they get an audience with the Elven Court and discover that Draconic, or Celestial, is the court language there.
Looking at the Pathfinder Chronicles: NPC Guide lends some interresting insights:
Also of note:
Most of the NPCs listed do speak approprate Languages, but these provide reason to believe that normally a human character only speaks Common, and must select their "racial" language (if any) from one of their bonuses from Intelligence.
I've been trying to figure out how the regional languages work for over two years (with repeated posts on these boards asking for clarification on how they worked) to no avail.
TWO. YEARS.
Good luck to you.
I've been trying to figure out how the regional languages work for over two years (with repeated posts on these boards asking for clarification on how they worked) to no avail.
TWO. YEARS.
Good luck to you.
Form what Lord Fyre and Andrew Phillips just posted it would appear that this is something the designers have just come to on their to do list.
Keep your faith Ravingdork. Keep your faith ;)
I've been trying to figure out how the regional languages work for over two years (with repeated posts on these boards asking for clarification on how they worked) to no avail.
TWO. YEARS.
Good luck to you.
Well, here's an official ruling... for organized play, anyway. Granted, that's not necessarily the "default" ruling for Pathfinder, but here, you can find this:
For the sake of ease of play, all Pathfinders in Pathfinder Society start speaking Common (as do they in the Core Rulebook). If you have a low Int score, then yes, you have to spend ranks in Linguistics to get your "native" tongue.
...which, of course, completely goes against what I said in my first post in this thread. Then again, I don't play in the Pathfinder Society.
Creative Director
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In the revised Campaign Setting hardcover, all PCs are assumed to speak Common. They gain a free bonus language based on their ethnicity as well, so a Varisian will begin play speaking Common and Varisian, and an Ulfen will begin play speaking Common and Skald. This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.
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This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.That's because it takes two slots to speak Taldane well. The rest of you just end up speaking it like... well... foreigners and provincials.
Then it must take three slots to speak Chelaxian, as we all know that Taldane is one of its more primitive forebearers.
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Then it must take three slots to speak Chelaxian, as we all know that Taldane is one of its more primitive forebearers.This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.That's because it takes two slots to speak Taldane well. The rest of you just end up speaking it like... well... foreigners and provincials.
Well of course. Only those who speak Infernal as well as Taldane can truly master Chelaxian.
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Then it must take three slots to speak Chelaxian, as we all know that Taldane is one of its more primitive forebearers.This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.That's because it takes two slots to speak Taldane well. The rest of you just end up speaking it like... well... foreigners and provincials.
As far as I know, Taldane = Chelaxian. At least that's what the Campaign Setting says, anyways.
Unless you're just joking around. I dunno, it's late. :D
Then it must take three slots to speak Chelaxian, as we all know that Taldane is one of its more primitive forebearers.This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.That's because it takes two slots to speak Taldane well. The rest of you just end up speaking it like... well... foreigners and provincials.
Au contraire, mon amie!
Ce' degenerate worshipers of Le Diable have impeded intellectual capacity and must expend more resources, to have a rudimentary grasp of the proud tongue of exquisite Taldor.Away now, paysan!
;)
In the revised Campaign Setting hardcover, all PCs are assumed to speak Common. They gain a free bonus language based on their ethnicity as well, so a Varisian will begin play speaking Common and Varisian, and an Ulfen will begin play speaking Common and Skald. This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.
I am happy to hear that.
I think native speakers of Taldane have other advantages:Fluency, better recognition of dialects and foreign accents, racial superiority, better understanding of Golarion's political power centers, etc.
Hah now I've heard it all..an Andoran calling people peasants as an intended insult? Doesn't he know all his people are peasants now?
That, was an immitation of a fopish Taldan. I wander how you could not tell...
Maybe the satire was too much for your fair Taldan heart?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hah now I've heard it all..an Andoran calling people peasants as an intended insult? Doesn't he know all his people are peasants now?That, was an immitation of a fopish Taldan. I wander how you could not tell...
Maybe the satire was too much for your fair Taldan heart?
Actually I simply took it as proof that in a generation or less Andoran will have its own noble class, looking to prove itself as worthy as their ancestors.
somewhat political spoiler
Hah now I've heard it all..an Andoran calling people peasants as an intended insult? Doesn't he know all his people are peasants now?That, was an immitation of a fopish Taldan. I wander how you could not tell...
Maybe the satire was too much for your fair Taldan heart?Actually I simply took it as proof that in a generation or less Andoran will have its own noble class, looking to prove itself as worthy as their ancestors.
If that is the case, the people should take Galt as an example of how to deal with people born more equal than the commoners.
Actually, Azlanti is likely, given Taldor's history.
Would the "business of government" in Cheliax be done in Infernal?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually, Azlanti is likely, given Taldor's history.
Would the "business of government" in Cheliax be done in Infernal?
I'd think so. I look to Russia, post Peter the Great, as an example of lingustic evolution. Peter wanted all court business done in French (to show that Russians were 'enlightened' like the west) but as a result, various French words trickled down into Russian.
So depending on drift times, Chelaxian 'common' would be different than Taldan 'common' both of which would be different than pure 'common'.
Think of an Aussie, a Midwesterner and a Brit all having a conversation. They all speak English, but there are going to be some terms/concepts that don't translate well or have completely different meanings. (bonk/boink comes to mind)
In the revised Campaign Setting hardcover, all PCs are assumed to speak Common. They gain a free bonus language based on their ethnicity as well, so a Varisian will begin play speaking Common and Varisian, and an Ulfen will begin play speaking Common and Skald. This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.
Thank you very much for clarifying.
It's funny that you should mention an Ulfen getting Common and Skald as an example. That's just what I was thinking about when I mentioned milking the "native language" concept for all I could. I created an Ulfen character, and gave him Taldan, Skald, and Hallit. I had a feeling that I was abusing the rule. Now I know it. :)
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This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.That's because it takes two slots to speak Taldane well. The rest of you just end up speaking it like... well... foreigners and provincials.
Strangely OK with that.
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As an aside, I think there should be a 'high Taldan' or the business of government should be done in Elven or Azlanti or something.
Actually, I agree. Taldans are pretentious enough to have developed a court language distinct from the language of the streets. It may have more Aztlani words, or even faux Aztlani words, but because of time separation, I don't think it would be linguistically any more related to Aztlani than regular Taldane.
Look at Latin. There was pure Latin Latin, but also all kinds of vulgar bastardizations spoken in the provinces and even in Italy itself. These eventually became French, Italian, Spanish, etc. while Latin ossified and pretty much died out except in law and the Church. Isn't there a form of old Slavic still used in the Russian Orthodox Church?
Or maybe they think of it as Aztlani, but after thousands of years, it's evolved pretty far from True Aztlani.
It gets more complicated when you consider that one's language can also be influenced by one's class and social standing.
For example, Latin was the language of the common man in the Roman Empire, but nobles and government officials spoke ancient Greek. When the Senate met, that's what they spoke. So one had to learn how to speak, as well as read and write a foreign language in order to get a government job.
Right up until the twentieth century French was the language of diplomacy, if you wanted to be a diplomat (and in fact if you wanted to be considered in any way educated) you had to learn French. At various points in history most of the royal courts of Europe would only speak French.
So imagine your PCs get an audience with the King, show up in court, discover that everyone is speaking Elven (bonus points if the only PC who speaks Elven is the Elf rogue for whom charisma was a dump stat), and are mocked/dismissed accordingly.
Extra bonus points if after everyone in the party learns Elven they get an audience with the Elven Court and discover that Draconic, or Celestial, is the court language there.
Repost.
If I may offer my 2 coppers to the mix, just because you are of a certain ethnicity does not mean you speak the language. Orphans, descendants of slaves, so on and so forth, might be of a certain 'breed' (and I apologise if that term offends anyone, it is not my intent) of a race might have any number of reasons to not speak their 'mother tongue'.
Still it would be highly unusual... might make for a good character bios, Mwangi slave raised by an eccentri Chelaxian as a Wizard and has set off into the outside world to A) prove he's just as good as any 'pale-skinned snob' and B) answer some childhood yearnings to understand his roots.
Imagine the horror when he finds out he's related to the Bekyar people. Bwahahaha.... oh wait, Chelaxian Morals. He'll think they're quaint .... dammit.
If I may offer my 2 coppers to the mix, just because you are of a certain ethnicity does not mean you speak the language. Orphans, descendants of slaves, so on and so forth, might be of a certain 'breed' (and I apologise if that term offends anyone, it is not my intent) of a race might have any number of reasons to not speak their 'mother tongue'.
Still it would be highly unusual... might make for a good character bios, Mwangi slave raised by an eccentri Chelaxian as a Wizard and has set off into the outside world to A) prove he's just as good as any 'pale-skinned snob' and B) answer some childhood yearnings to understand his roots.
Imagine the horror when he finds out he's related to the Bekyar people. Bwahahaha.... oh wait, Chelaxian Morals. He'll think they're quaint .... dammit.
Despite players' lack of creativity when coming up with background stories, being an orphan, so and so forth is not the norm for characters in a normal campaign. Sure it can happen, but the vast mayority of people speak their native tongue. And if it came down to chosing between Taldan or native tongue as the only automatic language for humans, I would chose native (for verisimilitude. Thankfully James intends to rid us of this cultural paradox.
Above all else, we need to remember that the average person will probably only know one language well and maybe a second language enough to converse with the "outsiders" that wander through their village every month or two. Knowing Common and a native language, if it is different, mainly matters for adventurers and non-commoner npc's they will interact with. For a real world example, look at the bigger immigrant communities in the US, Chinatown in San Francisco and Little Italy in New York City. It was not that many decades ago, that someone could live their entire life within these communities and never learn more than a little English, or even none at all, and get along perfectly fine.
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Creative Director
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So here's the thing.
It's really lame and obtuse and annoying for a PC to not speak the same langauge as the rest of the PCs or the majority of the NPCs. So ALL PCs get Common for free. Think of that as a "you need this to play the game" requirement.
At the same time, it's really lame and annoying to have 12 different ethnicities all only speaking the same language. Since there's no actual game effect difference between a Tien and an Ulfen and a Chelaxian and a Varisian, giving them different bonus languages is one of the only ways we have to distinguish the ethnicities and throw a bone to differences in crunch for them all.
Is it realistic from a real-world sociological and linguistic stance? Probably not. But know what else isn't realistic? Elephant sized scorpions, dragons, fireballs, hit points, and how the Craft skill works.
An RPG needs to walk the line between what's realistic and simulationist and what's fun to play as a game. If only so that gamers who prefer one extreme or the other have equal amounts of work to adjust the game to their preference.
I have a PC now who is playing a Varisian barbarian with an 8 INT, so I ruled that he knows Common but not Varisian. His backstory is that he is a transplant to another part of Avistan anyway, so it works out that way.
Well, similarly to Dosgamer's example, I once played an Ulfen barbarian with a negative INT. My barbarian had a basis of the Ulfen language (You know, for singing and shouting regional battlecries), but I was entitled to an INT check with some... whatever DC to recognize and comprehend the Ulfen language when it was used as ordinary speaking.
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Is it realistic from a real-world sociological and linguistic stance? Probably not. But know what else isn't realistic? Elephant sized scorpions, dragons, fireballs, hit points, and how the Craft skill works.
I plan to quote this often. I may replace the "sociological and linguistic" with whatever folks happen to be arguing about on the boards that day.
-Skeld
So here's the thing.
It's really lame and obtuse and annoying for a PC to not speak the same langauge as the rest of the PCs or the majority of the NPCs. So ALL PCs get Common for free. Think of that as a "you need this to play the game" requirement.
At the same time, it's really lame and annoying to have 12 different ethnicities all only speaking the same language. Since there's no actual game effect difference between a Tien and an Ulfen and a Chelaxian and a Varisian, giving them different bonus languages is one of the only ways we have to distinguish the ethnicities and throw a bone to differences in crunch for them all.
Is it realistic from a real-world sociological and linguistic stance? Probably not. But know what else isn't realistic? Elephant sized scorpions, dragons, fireballs, hit points, and how the Craft skill works.
An RPG needs to walk the line between what's realistic and simulationist and what's fun to play as a game. If only so that gamers who prefer one extreme or the other have equal amounts of work to adjust the game to their preference.
I totally agree.
I think a problem with Common is that it has undergone a lot of changes in the various editions of the game.
From being an actual language, to being a special trade tongue, to being a smattering of slang and lingo permitting intercultural communication, to becoming an actual language once again.
I like PCs being able to communicate well and also want them to speak culturally dependant languages at the same time. Those aspects can be handwaved into the game and then discussion stops right there. However, I think it would be great for the new edition of the PFCS to have a more indepth explanation of the different languages and their roles... Common/Taldane in particular. Is it like modern English, with many people speaking it well all over the world yet with a vast majority of the global population not knowing it at all or at least not well enough to conduct a meaningful conversation. Or is it like medieval Latin. Is it just a universal language that all people know or is it something entirely different.
So here's the thing.
It's really lame and obtuse and annoying for a PC to not speak the same langauge as the rest of the PCs or the majority of the NPCs. So ALL PCs get Common for free. Think of that as a "you need this to play the game" requirement.
At the same time, it's really lame and annoying to have 12 different ethnicities all only speaking the same language. Since there's no actual game effect difference between a Tien and an Ulfen and a Chelaxian and a Varisian, giving them different bonus languages is one of the only ways we have to distinguish the ethnicities and throw a bone to differences in crunch for them all.
Is it realistic from a real-world sociological and linguistic stance? Probably not. But know what else isn't realistic? Elephant sized scorpions, dragons, fireballs, hit points, and how the Craft skill works.
An RPG needs to walk the line between what's realistic and simulationist and what's fun to play as a game. If only so that gamers who prefer one extreme or the other have equal amounts of work to adjust the game to their preference.
What about goblin PCs? According to the Bestiary, they can only speak Goblin.