So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Include in the recap the 'downside' of lichdom - social problems, more attention from certain types of enemies, phylactery shenanegans...things NPCs don't have to worry about as much as PCs do.
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
It depends, it depends, it depends. There's no clear, absolute answer - some PLAYERS I would say yes to, some I would say no to (and I mostly don't run evil games).
Personally I prefer adventurers to be 'heroic' - i.e. having no staggering weaknesses. I cringe at the optimization guides when dumping INT or CHA to 7 rears its ugly head (even if it's not a 'staggering weakness'. That's why I use point buy systems, to AVOID getting a 4 DEX or the like. But there still seems to be 'lotsa love' for playing the 3D6 or 4D6-drop-one character generation, where you 'roleplay what you get'.
What I will say is this: When I GM, you get the consequences of your character build and your in game actions. Play a STR 2 character and yeah, your encumbrance is a BIG DEAL because you don't have much. If a (store bought) module has shadows, I won't leave them out because you're one-hit-dead from them. I won't leave out Climb or Swim checks, or STR poisonous spiders, or anything I'd throw at normal adventurers.
Want to become a lich? Swell, you CAN TRY, but it'll be damn dangerous, onerous, people will try to stop you if they find out, your fellow PCs aren't obligated to help. You might not even be evil when you start but you sure will be by the time you're done, because only the evil have what it takes to do what's necessary to get there. But if you jump through all the hoops I put in the way and actually make it to lichdom, I'm not going to slap a +2 CL on your character - how does it make sense that you suddenly stop gaining XP for a while? The consequences of your undead state are more than enough to make you question your decision - there's more to the game than just combat, after all. Not only will you feel you've earned your horrific unnatural immortality, you'll feel like you have to keep on earning it...for as long as you choose to interact with 'normal' society. Lichdom is more of a retirement plan IMO...
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So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
1) No, as a PC, in my games if you have any stat below 3 you will suffer constant consequences and this shows obvious signs of blatant powergaming bordering on munchinism
2) Yes! I would not at all be opposed to allowing such a thing as long as the requirements were met and the mechanical adjustment is made to balance out the LA. I would most likley have them rebuild the character from the ground up working with the player to take into account the abilities.
3) No. As long as it does nothing to overshadow the campaign, dominate combat or roleplay opportunities they would have little issue.
Most of those things that people use to get power are denied or countered by punative DM's.
Fixed that for you. ^_^
Seriously, if a DM has a problem with PCs getting these kinds of powers, they should say so up front, rather than letting them 'have them' and immediately curtail them or apply some sort of 'balance'. That's more competent DM'ing, and a competent DM will apply logical consequences - kingship pretty much precludes 'regular' adventures and society generally frowns on lichdom.
So, BAM, she's a powerful lich. Meet the other side of the equation - paladins, clergy, undead hunters, frightened populace.
No I meant competent. I was not advising giving a player power to negate it. That is pointless. The point was to not allow a player to take over a game.
You make it sound people people go around yelling "I am a lich". I am sure they would keep it a secret so they have to worry about every good party within the kingdom coming to find them.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
1.) No, for several reasons. First, I prefer PCs to be heroic heroes, not crippled old women. Certainly not at 1st level. If the group was being built at higher level, then I might allow venerable characters, but still require enough STR/DEX/CON to not be totally insta-killed by shadows, spiders or modest poison. Heck, I built my Wizard (Helic) with 13STR/14DEX/14CON so that he could still adventure when he was getting on in years (and survive his youthful adventures more easily), and because I pictured him as tough-as-old-boot-leather.
2.) If I was running an Evil campaign, yes I would. But you can be darn sure that they've earned it, and that after they're a lich that their undead state will cause them all the logical problems that would arise. Mind you, I'd do that for everybody in an evil campaign, which is probably why I don't run them.
3.) No, they probably wouldn't have a problem. We've played various games where stuff like this has happened (Ars Magica, people becoming faeries, or spirits, or magical critters) and it hasn't been a problem. In fact, our group plays a lot of games with a lot of PC power disparity - D&D is admittedly one that supports that less well than most. That said, Lich-dom suppliments a spellcasters defenses far more than his offenses, so I don't think the lich is going to dominate combat any more than it did before. YMMV.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
1. Using the old age to get those stats, No
1b. He would not live long if I did.2. Sure, but he would have to do quest for it, and he would have to accept a level adjustment.
3. It would depend on the template, how it was gained, and why.
We would allow more power than normal within reason for RP reasons, but not getting an LA would not fly. Nobody forced the OP to make such a weak character. Now if I as a DM imposed those penalties(which I would never do) I might give him a break.
You make it sound people people go around yelling "I am a lich". I am sure they would keep it a secret so they have to worry about every good party within the kingdom coming to find them.
The efforts you have to go through to conceal it are part of its downside. You are undead and register as such, you are supernatural evil and register as such, and you look like a rotting corpse. All of which are concealable with effort and vigilance.
character sheetsI've seen those sheets before... are they all hand made, or do you use as template?
A bit of both. I had made all of them from scratch (based off the newer v3.5 statblocks as well as some Pathfinder statblocks), but when somebody makes a new character these days, I pull up an old character that is similar to the new one and simply modify the stats as necessary. We've done about 6 Pathfinder campaigns, so I (as of about 2 months ago) have existing characters for every core race and class (and even some playtest classes). Therefore, they function more like templates than they used to.
If you were asking in hopes of getting a blank template, then I am sorry, I have none to offer.
Being a good story teller doesn't make you a good DM. You need more. And if you think the lich template on any venerable caster with no LA is fine in a group where the next strongest character is a bard monk, then the DM does not have enough grasp of the rules to be a good DM.
Even though our GM has handled or likely will handle things much like you describe, she has managed to keep things fun and interesting where other campaigns fell apart. In the end, I'd say that's a sign of a great GM.
So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong. And I would be willing to bet that anyone who designs RPG's professionally would agree with me. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's pretty clear cut.I believe his statement is, and know mine is, that spending 120,000 of your WBL is a signifigant investment at that level. Which means that while the benefits he receives are non-slotted, he has that much less money to spend on slotted items and will have lesser items than he would have otherwise.That too. ^_^
At 11th level, it's MORE than all your money WBL. So you automatically have less than nothing, and probably had lots of nothing (but bags of cash) leading up to it. Long-term pain for long-term gain, IMO.
This is an important point that I missed earlier. Just because I want Hama to become a lich at 11th-level, doesn't mean that I will be able to do so for lack of funds. Maybe I'll get them, maybe it will take me several more levels (our GM has been incredibly stingy with treasure in the past). Hama may well die from adventuring or from old age before she saves up enough money. That's part of what makes it exciting. She may live to see 15th+ and still not obtain lichdom. Maybe she WILL get it at 11th. We won't know till it happens.
The character spends 120K gold to gain tangible benefits orders of magnitude more powerful if you tried to duplicate them with magic items. But that's balanced because they spent 120K. Your logic eludes me....
That's because you are looking at it the wrong way. You should be comparing the lich template to 240,000gp worth of magic items, since that's what you could create with 120,000gp. The phylactery rules make it clear that the 120,000gp is the COST, not the MARKET PRICE. So I ask you all to look at it from that persepctive. What would a straight wizard with his many bonus item creation feats be able to make with 120,000gp and 6 months? How does that now compare to the template?
Most of those things that people use to get power are denied or countered by punative DM's.
Fixed that for you. ^_^
Seriously, if a DM has a problem with PCs getting these kinds of powers, they should say so up front, rather than letting them 'have them' and immediately curtail them or apply some sort of 'balance'. That's more competent DM'ing, and a competent DM will apply logical consequences - kingship pretty much precludes 'regular' adventures and society generally frowns on lichdom.
So, BAM, she's a powerful lich. Meet the other side of the equation - paladins, clergy, undead hunters, frightened populace.
I have no problem against in-game problems and balances that arise from becoming a lich. In fact, I would welcome the challenge.
What dangerous encounters did he throw at the party? I dont see how you are alive without the DM's mercy.
You said the DM balances groups amongst themselves. What does that mean?
To the second: Like you and others, our groups try to keep everybody within the same (effective) level of power. Balancing a group amongst itself means to make sure no player is obviously more powerful than another. That is the reason we use point buy in our groups. I personally prefer to keep it to Pathfinder rules (and nearly all my characters do so) rather than also incorporating v3.5 stuff, but I am often outvoted in that regard.
To the second: Off of the top of my head, we fought four 11th-level half-celestial druids that used Spell Compendium spells against us. They brought with them no less than ten of their high-level paladin archers. That was a single encounter. We also fought a hydra in another encounter. A hag covey with their troll minions in another. An entire village of orcs and gnolls in two other encounters. We fought a long series of crocodiles (standard and giant) while going down a river.
There were others as well that I cannot recall, but in general 1 in 3 encounters was WAY over our level. Some of them we handled, others we were forced to flee (though to date we've always had at least a partial success).
You make it sound people people go around yelling "I am a lich". I am sure they would keep it a secret so they have to worry about every good party within the kingdom coming to find them.The efforts you have to go through to conceal it are part of its downside. You are undead and register as such, you are supernatural evil and register as such, and you look like a rotting corpse. All of which are concealable with effort and vigilance.
Random people are not targeted to see if they are undead. In order for the effort to be applied there must be suspicion first. It does not require that much effort until the lich slips up.
@RD: It is good your group was smart enough to run away. As for the Lich the DM would have to nerf you in combat to keep you down to their level. If he is ok with that then good, but most DM's would not welcome the extra work.
There are munchkin Bane sticks??? WTF? Mr. Fishy didn't get one do you guys have one?They were handed out at the beginning of the thread before you showed up Mr. Fishy.
that's right, there's actually a guy who carry's the sticks around with him and wears a sign that says "smack me". Go figure, some people find it hard to resist
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Regarding the "value" and "cost" of becoming a Lich...
The PRD already has rules on "Monsters as PCs". You will, at the very least, need to count the CR increase as class levels:
"Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels."
Note that the bestiary entry has the 11th level human necromancer (normally a CR 10) as CR 12. 11th level + CR 2 is 13, and -1 for being an NPC.
So as a player, you'd be at least 13th level.
The DM has two choices for this:
1. At 11th level, you become a Lich and are considered 13th level. You gain a reduced amount of experience, or stop leveling (if you play without experience) until the other players catch up.
2. You start leveling slower now, taking longer to reach 11th level, so that by the time you get there and can become a Lich, your allies are now 13th level and the APL remains even amongst you.
I understand that a lot of time and energy was spent and you gave up a lot of magic items/power to get this. The problem is that all of those things (other than the money instead of magic...
There is absolutely no way you can possibly even fathom thinking that becoming a lich in all it's power is balanced by applying the +2 CR for a PC. To imply that, this is how Paizo has set it up is frankly very insulting to Paizo because they were stating that is a very simple model to use, but to be used with caution. The Template monsters do not all have equal abilities and to treat them all with the +2 CR rule for a PC is wrong. You can do whatever you want, I just hope your GM pulls the BS card.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
1) No, as a PC, in my games if you have any stat below 3 you will suffer constant consequences and this shows obvious signs of blatant powergaming bordering on munchinism
2) Yes! I would not at all be opposed to allowing such a thing as long as the requirements were met and the mechanical adjustment is made to balance out the LA. I would most likley have them rebuild the character from the ground up working with the player to take into account the abilities.
3) No. As long as it does nothing to overshadow the campaign, dominate combat or roleplay opportunities they would have little issue.
At the risk of not being original; I actually agree with these 3 answers exactly
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Why are people offended by Hama's ability scores, especially her strength? It's a by-the-books age progression. As a young woman her stats would have been:
Str 8 (–1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 9 (-1), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 20 (+5)
Young Hama would have been a charming, energetic, slightly daffy girl. Compared to your average sorcerer there's nothing unusual about this build.
Additionally, the story of a Lich assumes a spell caster frustrated by their own mortality; commonly someone quite old. Take your average human spell caster with modest physical attributes and age them to 70. They'll have a Str, Dex and Con in the 2-5 range. These are the world's future lichs.
If the GM presented the lich template as a viable PC goal, I think Hama's sheet looks entirely ordinary for someone who's pursuing it.
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So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
To answer all 3 in one go I would say A resounding No the answer coming from experience (Once when I had just started dming I gave a player the vampire template who went from being a average fighter to becoming the fury).
So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong.
Lichdom HAS a mechanical requirement: 120,000gp, 4 months time making a phylactery. For an 11th level character, that's pretty much "all your stuff".What 'balances' the extra power out is the effort required to actually earn the template in the first place - i.e. it's a reward for moving steadily towards a goal and making sacrifices to achieve it - from the sounds of it, more than just money/time sacrifices. And a PC lich suffers from problems that NPC liches do not - how many PCs are regarded as undead abominations by most of the world? It's great for Mr-I-Live-Alone-In-A-Dungeon-Doing-Ageless-Research Lich...for Adventuring Lich, not so much. Heck, I'm not even sure if you can suppress the Fear Aura...
Oh man, where did I put my +1 bane Munchkin stick. I think I just found the Munchkin king
Why are people offended by Hama's ability scores, especially her strength? It's a by-the-books age progression. As a young woman her stats would have been:
Str 8 (–1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 9 (-1), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 20 (+5)
Young Hama would have been a charming, energetic, slightly daffy girl. Compared to your average sorcerer there's nothing unusual about this build.
Additionally, the story of a Lich assumes a spell caster frustrated by their own mortality; commonly someone quite old. Take your average human spell caster with modest physical attributes and age them to 70. They'll have a Str, Dex and Con in the 2-5 range. These are the world's future lichs.
If the GM presented the lich template as a viable PC goal, I think Hama's sheet looks entirely ordinary for someone who's pursuing it.
I think it's that the ageing rules assume that you start as a young character and age as you adventure, not that you start out old. They are designed to deliver balance (or what passes for it) based on that idea. If you want to start with older characters a lot of DM's will shrug and say that you get neither penalties nor benefits for doing so, your stats are how you start the game irrespective of age.
The reason for this is that while the losses in physical stats are considerable, the equivelent point-gain in mental stats can make for over-powered casters.
Wasteland Knight, I have a question for you.
In your games, does the cost of a resurrection spell and the subsequent restoration come out of a character's wealth by level for the rest of the game? Or does that value end up coming back to the characters?
All a phylactery is, in essence, is having access to a ressurection+restoration combo that costs you time to use instead of costing you gold (that in most campaigns ends up coming back to you anyway.)
I can only answer as "it depends on the campaign". Some games the party fund would pony up the lion's share of the cost but in others it's up to the character to have enough available funds for a Raise/Resurrection. However, no matter how the funding has worked out, no one has ever complained they have had too many resurrections so they're poor, as my group has tired of the "revolving doors of the afterlife" and tends towards die once you can come back, die twice maybe, but after that it's gone for good. This isn't a rule written in stone - no one has ever wanted to come back but then been told "no" - but just an evolution of our thinking as a community.
In any case, I'd describe the phylactery as a constant and endless Contingency: Polymorph + Contingency: Resurrection effect. I would also point out the lich is very unusual in the fact that it can come back to "undeath" - most undead are completely destroyed at 0 hp. Yet another nice benefit to being a lich...
I think its funny the way RavingDork gamed the system with Age category modifiers. I view those mods as something that happen to you IN game...not as a character creation accessory.
I think it's funny too, but I would never allow it at my table. His stats before age categories were
STR 8
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 9
CHA 18
I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
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Why are people offended by Hama's ability scores, especially her strength? It's a by-the-books age progression. As a young woman her stats would have been:
Str 8 (–1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 9 (-1), Wis 9 (-1), Cha 20 (+5)
Young Hama would have been a charming, energetic, slightly daffy girl. Compared to your average sorcerer there's nothing unusual about this build.
Additionally, the story of a Lich assumes a spell caster frustrated by their own mortality; commonly someone quite old. Take your average human spell caster with modest physical attributes and age them to 70. They'll have a Str, Dex and Con in the 2-5 range. These are the world's future lichs.
If the GM presented the lich template as a viable PC goal, I think Hama's sheet looks entirely ordinary for someone who's pursuing it.
I think it's that the ageing rules assume that you start as a young character and age as you adventure, not that you start out old. They are designed to deliver balance (or what passes for it) based on that idea. If you want to start with older characters a lot of DM's will shrug and say that you get neither penalties nor benefits for doing so, your stats are how you start the game irrespective of age.
The reason for this is that while the losses in physical stats are considerable, the equivelent point-gain in mental stats can make for over-powered casters.
It's an assumption you could totally miss. Pathfinder Core says you can "Choose or randomly generate your character's age". And the wizard iconic, a character Pathfinder offers as a PC, is a man in his 50s who has been age modified according to James Jacobs:
"Ezren has them; Jason Bulmhan just statted him up yesterday, and he's not the guy you want in the front of the party. Ezren. Not Jason. Jason would do quite well at the front of the party, even if he does have reach and can work just as well at the back, reaching over the heads of the humans in the front rank to attack those pesky goblins."
I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
Maybe she didn't until she found she was losing her looks and had to use her brain a little more, and found out about it then and figured that as she was already old, bitter and ugly being a walking corpse wasn't much of a change ...
Edit: In her youth she had good looks, poor physical strength, great looks and amazing stamina. Hmm.
I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
+1 That statement got a good chuckle.
Maybe she didn't until she found she was losing her looks and had to use her brain a little more, and found out about it then and figured that as she was already old, bitter and ugly being a walking corpse wasn't much of a change ...I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
I'm just saying that I thought it was funny. I've met several people with 9 Int and 9 Wis and most of them were drug addicts. Hell, her 16 Con even supports the similarity. :P
I forgot my main purpose for returning, which was that I thought undead were immune to transformation effects but I think that's been ammended by Pathfinder's "(unless the magical effect can affect objects or is harmless)" clause in undead traits.
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I think its funny the way RavingDork gamed the system with Age category modifiers. I view those mods as something that happen to you IN game...not as a character creation accessory.I think it's funny too, but I would never allow it at my table. His stats before age categories were
STR 8
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 9
CHA 18I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
Weakling? Str 8 is believable for a petite woman. And while her Int and Wis aren't great, they're barely below average. Is it really that hard to imagine how a captivating but kinda spacey woman could find success in a medieval world? Hama has probably had a plethora of men elevate her on her quest.
You make it sound people people go around yelling "I am a lich". I am sure they would keep it a secret so they have to worry about every good party within the kingdom coming to find them.The efforts you have to go through to conceal it are part of its downside. You are undead and register as such, you are supernatural evil and register as such, and you look like a rotting corpse. All of which are concealable with effort and vigilance.
Those efforts are not troublesome enough to negate a level adjustment. You don't even get to oppose a disguise check unless you realize something is up.
From the PRD:
Check: Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others' Perception check results. If you don't draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Perception checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Perception checks.
Disguising yourself is cheap at level 11. If you know you will be a Lich there is no reason to not take the skill. It is charisma based so its not like you will suffer much for it. It also is not affected by True Seeing since it is not a magical affect.
Edit: I just realized I responded to this already, but since this post is better than the first I will let it stay.
Weakling? Str 8 is believable for a petite woman. And while her Int and Wis aren't great, they're barely below average. Is it really that hard to imagine how a captivating but kinda spacey woman could find success in a medieval world? Hama has probably had a plethora of men elevate her on her quest.
I think its funny the way RavingDork gamed the system with Age category modifiers. I view those mods as something that happen to you IN game...not as a character creation accessory.I think it's funny too, but I would never allow it at my table. His stats before age categories were
STR 8
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 9
CHA 18I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
There's no gender differentiations in D&D. Str 8 isn't the norm, even if you're a 4'11 120lb. redhead. I played that character. She had 18 Str and wore full plate.
8 Str is decidedly below average in a world where everyone who isn't a player character can generally lift between 33 and 43 lbs. easily and 100 with effort. Gender differentiations built into statistics aren't written into the game and are one of the things, in my experience, that generally everyone can agree are stupid.
10 is average. Anything below that would be below-average, but how do we really consider how much each point is worth? Let's take STR for example. If you consider a 10 to be average, an 18 Str according to the carrying capacity chart puts you above the olympic world record for the deadlift. That means that if your character has a ~14 strength you're halfway as strong as the olympic world champion for deadlifting. Consider that the points represent a lot more than "barely" in the world where 4 points make the difference between fairly strong and beyond world record.
She is below average in intelligence, common sense and memory. It's not at all stretching my sense of disbelief that she could probably marry into a nice noble household after a long stint as the bar wench held on a pedestal by the rest of the villagers. It's stretching my sense of belief that Hama the retired bar maid is almost complete in her quest for limitless power. :P
I am having a hard time seeing some with an INT of 12 even knowing where to began in looking for lore on a lich. Sure she has the casting stat, what she is lacking is the high INT to be able to comprehend the smallest faction of arcane lore about lichdom.
Sorry 12 does not cut it for understanding the long forgotten and forbidden lore of lich craft.Your looking at a little smarter and well learned then Bob the pig farmer with his INT of 10, In fact if Bob was 9th level and you had the same know skill you would be +4 higher on your roll, +1 if Bob took skill focus but never more then +4
Your GM is being super nice to you. And again I can see why your pc needs to die to be honest. Your being handed a very powerful boon like a gift.
I am just saying I don't get it..I mean there have been ways to make someone else a lich, but I can't see someone by themselves without help researching such a thing with such a low Int without some real help. Not in a mere 6 months {including crafting}
I am thinking the other players may see the GM as playing favorites here.He is being Very, very , very nice and overly generous here.
I am having a hard time seeing some with an INT of 12 even knowing where to began in looking for lore on a lich. Sure she has the casting stat, what she is lacking is the high INT to be able to comprehend the smallest faction of arcane lore about lichdom.
Sorry 12 does not cut it for understanding the long forgotten and forbidden lore of lich craft.Your looking at a little smarter and well learned then Bob the pig farmer with his INT of 10
I never even noticed the low intelligence and wisdom, but you are right.
The PRD does say several difficult checks should be a part of the process. I think RD got around this by sweet talking a dragon IIRC. I would have sent him on a dangerous quest to get the information, and I would have had him make several intelligence or wisdom checks at the least to be able to understand the information once he got it. More than likely he would have been making knowledge checks. I would not have just said "yes you can be a lich". It would have been more like I will give you the opportunity to try to be a lich. I would have explained all the possible risk up front, and the possibility that he may die in the final stage. There was a book with details on a lich drinking a concoction and making a fort save to become a lich.
If he insisted on being a Lich at level 11 I probably would have had a benefactor loan him the money he needed for a service to be named later.
The above is not different than when one of my players wanted a weapon of legacy. I told him he may die trying to unlock certain legacies, and the lich template is a lot better than some old sword.
Edit:I did not notice the low mental stats were when she was young.
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I think its funny the way RavingDork gamed the system with Age category modifiers. I view those mods as something that happen to you IN game...not as a character creation accessory.I think it's funny too, but I would never allow it at my table. His stats before age categories were
STR 8
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 9
CHA 18I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
See: Order of the Stick at Giant in the Playground
Xykon, the lich antagonist is a sorcerer and it's often amusing to see how very powerful but not wise or intelligent is portrayed.
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Weakling? Str 8 is believable for a petite woman. And while her Int and Wis aren't great, they're barely below average. Is it really that hard to imagine how a captivating but kinda spacey woman could find success in a medieval world? Hama has probably had a plethora of men elevate her on her quest.
I think its funny the way RavingDork gamed the system with Age category modifiers. I view those mods as something that happen to you IN game...not as a character creation accessory.I think it's funny too, but I would never allow it at my table. His stats before age categories were
STR 8
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 9
CHA 18I don't even know how to take these stats and translate them. An incredibly pretty and charismatic yet exceptionally hardy weakling idiot?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
There's no gender differentiations in D&D. Str 8 isn't the norm, even if you're a 4'11 120lb. redhead. I played that character. She had 18 Str and wore full plate.
8 Str is decidedly below average in a world where everyone who isn't a player character can generally lift between 33 and 43 lbs. easily and 100 with effort. Gender differentiations built into statistics aren't written into the game and are one of the things, in my experience, that generally everyone can agree are stupid.
10 is average. Anything below that would be below-average, but how do we really consider how much each point is worth? Let's take STR for example. If you consider a 10 to be average, an 18 Str according to the carrying capacity chart puts you above the olympic world record for the deadlift. That means that if your character has a ~14 strength you're halfway as strong as the olympic world champion for deadlifting. Consider that the points represent a lot more than "barely" in the world where 4 points make the difference...
First, it's not an issue of gender differentiation built into the stats. It's a dash of in game reasoning to account for a stat spread among an average population. Your option - assuming a hard average for everyone (in this case NPCs) - means that anyone who falls below the average is an invalid. I instead assume that a low score (7 at the lowest) means someone is small (in the case of strength) or clumsy, or unobservant, or ugly, not that they're an aberration. Your sense of simulation obviously differs from mine.
Second, I think you're undervaluing the power of charisma and looks when it comes to success, even in a world of high fantasy. You needn't be intelligent to desire lichdom. You just need a perverse drive and the ability to collect resources and information. An intellectual might go about it with an obsessive methodology, cracking open ancient tombs and pouring over forbidden manuscripts. A socialite, however, might convince others to do much of the dirty work for her.
Pathfinder says that the path to lichdom is unique to the aspirant. To me that means some unusual, unexpected people have become lichs.
Just something to add to consideration of a PC Lich. As NPC's a DM can custom build Lichs to have the best chance against a Party while it is a lot harder for a Party to always be prepared for everything. I'm actually a fairly restrictive DM but I would have no problem with players playing older PCs. I'm not really sure if I'd allow one of my players to take the Lich template but then again I've never even used one against players. There are too many things that make a difference from group to group. I like the OP's character, he seems to really have invested in the character both in game and out. He's attached, and with a RPG I find that tends to be the hardest thing to get players to really do. Its a hell of a creative character and let us know what happens with it. :)
Wouldn't that be a knowledge arcana check? I haven't checked the statblock for it yet, but Know (Arcana) is a class skill for a sorcerer, so it shouldn't be out of her reach. (She does have 12 int, which is above the average spread of 10-11)
Yep at level 11 shes gets a total of +15 if maxed out..DC 25 OF 30 checks are still not auto passes and in many games they be closer to 35 or 40
Now at level 9 he has a total of +13, He would need a 30 or higher at some point I would say as 25 just does not cut "very hard"
hell at 20 he might be able to understand a 30 most of the time{ having a +24 and all} but again Bob can hit +12 at level 9 himself.
As I said GM being very nice to him. Super dubber nice if he got to bypass the checks as it seems he did.
The above is not different than when one of my players wanted a weapon of legacy. I told him he may die trying to unlock certain legacies, and the lich template is a lot better than some old sword.May die trying to unlock legacies on weapons of legacy???
Maybe you saw something I didn't Wraithstrike, but none of those ever seemed worth the personal cost. Losing HP and saves (and spell slots) really turned me off from them.
I got rid of the actual penalties in the chart. I only gave the bonuses.
The specific sword, I forget which one, had one fight against a CR equal to the player's level. Another one said he has to survive 24 hours in a place with no light. I am assuming that was intended to be fight also.
On the subject of Xykon... people seem to have this idea that Liches are going to destroy anybody in their path
The thing is you just don't know and an evil party is most likely not to take chances. It can be argued that the Lich is no longer the caster you knew, he now is inhuman. A creature outside of nature something that no longer thinks like you do.
Really an evil party that can not stay more powerful then him would have to have a damn good reason not to kill him before he gains that power.
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On the subject of Xykon... people seem to have this idea that Liches are going to destroy anybody in their path
The thing is you just don't know and an evil party is most likely not to take chances. It can be argued that the Lich is no longer the caster you knew, he now is inhuman. A creature outside of nature something that no longer thinks like you do.
Really an evil party that can not stay more powerful then him would have to have a damn good reason not to kill him before he gains that power.
Even though I've been defending the stat particulars of Hama, I agree that the other characters have every right to be afraid of her. The woman sacrificed her familiar (the OP said it was a part of her soul) in pursuit of lichdom. The closer she gets to her goal, the more the other PCs look like future sacrifices.
I am having a hard time seeing some with an INT of 12 even knowing where to began in looking for lore on a lich. Sure she has the casting stat, what she is lacking is the high INT to be able to comprehend the smallest faction of arcane lore about lichdom.
Well, that's what ranks in Knowledge: Arcana are for. The character may not be the brightest of the lot, but lots of studying smart books do help with finding what she needs.
As to the questions, to make it short:
1.) No.
2.) No.
3.) Yes.
And I am noticing that the question of "Why do the other players really want to kill RD's character?" kinda fell by the wayside.
I've been reading through this thread almost from the beginning. There's one point somewhere around the 40th-50th comment that I had to say something about:
Sorry, didn't mean to anger you into sarcasm. Be tactical sure, but NO they shouldn't be as tactical as any character with an 18 INT. Unfortunately our own intelligence bleeds into the characters and so as responsible gamers you need to ask yourself occasionally if something is reasonable.
10 Int is average. 100 IQ is average. 120 IQ is more than one standard deviation beyond the norm, counting for above average, but not-quite-gifted intelligence, so we could assume that this 12 INT sorcerer is actually a pretty bright old coot. The fact of the matter is, as much as we all want to be special, just under 70% of the population's IQ falls between 85-115, sothere's no WAY your personal mind is going to "influence" the sorcerer more than it would the wizard.
That is, unless you personally have an IQ of 180 (which is way past the genius line...to the point where the government would probably have contacted your parents when your initial testing results came in).
Erm... hello mcfly... +2 CR means that he'd be 2 whole spellcasting levels below an equivalent level non-templated sorcerer. A WHOLE SPELL LEVEL behind until I hit ECL 20 (sorcerer level 18, and no capstone ever)Sorry, but I'd say that, without a specific character concept (such as the frail and near-death concept RavingDork is working with) I would turn down the Lich template in favor of better spellcasting.
Seriously 3bm, the Lich template is far from broken at +2 CR when you include the monetary cost. Hell it's 'possible' that the +2 CR balances all on it's own without the cost, although the fact that Paizo's bestiary rules allow the 1/2 buyoff of CR means the 120,000 spent creating the phylactery is probably needed.
that's funny nancy; I've read some of your other posts and have yet to find one I agree with, so I guess we just see things completely different.
Really. I despise Vampire, Legend of Five Rings
Do... not.... speak ill about the GREATEST GAME IN THE WORLD! That's Legend of the five rings, not vampire.
BTW if you know people that play L5R like vampire, they are idiots and are playing it wrong.
P.S.: Sorry guys, had to do it, now I'll go back to reading this fun, fun thread, will put my opnion later, when I read it all. (Ravingdork is with the most points so far.)
(Ravingdork is with the most points so far.)
I will remember this later one because basically his argument is that RP'ing should get you free stuff.
Edit: Now it makes more sense.
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I've been reading through this thread almost from the beginning. There's one point somewhere around the 40th-50th comment that I had to say something about:
Sorry, didn't mean to anger you into sarcasm. Be tactical sure, but NO they shouldn't be as tactical as any character with an 18 INT. Unfortunately our own intelligence bleeds into the characters and so as responsible gamers you need to ask yourself occasionally if something is reasonable.10 Int is average. 100 IQ is average. 120 IQ is more than one standard deviation beyond the norm, counting for above average, but not-quite-gifted intelligence, so we could assume that this 12 INT sorcerer is actually a pretty bright old coot. The fact of the matter is, as much as we all want to be special, just under 70% of the population's IQ falls between 85-115, sothere's no WAY your personal mind is going to "influence" the sorcerer more than it would the wizard.
That is, unless you personally have an IQ of 180 (which is way past the genius line...to the point where the government would probably have contacted your parents when your initial testing results came in).
Most posters assume they have an above average IQ. The truth is debatable (comprehensive IQ tests aren't commonly given and many people distrust the entire notion) but it's a long standing gamer conceit.
Maybe cdglantern meant that an above average IQ combined with meta-textual knowledge of the game system could approximate a high in-game Int?
How did she even learn about the process of becoming a lich if she spent the majority of her life with below-average intelligence, common sense and memory?
I already answered that one. Her consular imp familiar tempted her with the secrets of lichdom.
If you download those character sheets I posted up thread you can see Hama'a backstory as well as the other characters in the party.
She is below average in intelligence, common sense and memory. It's not at all stretching my sense of disbelief that she could probably marry into a nice noble household after a long stint as the bar wench held on a pedestal by the rest of the villagers. It's stretching my sense of belief that Hama the retired bar maid is almost complete in her quest for limitless power. :P
Hama lived an extremely mundane life as an apothecary and herbalist all the way up into her old age. She actually did marry a wealthy gentleman from a powerful family, but he has since passed from natural causes. Hama didn't even develop sorceress powers until after a stroke nearly killed her. Suddenly she realize she could do strange things such as charm people. The sweet old woman soon became corrupted, took on many a young charmed lovers, and was eventually run out of town as an evil witch who messed with peoples' heads. That's when her career began as a 1st-level adventurer--after a long life of monotany.
She was originally hired as the wagon driver and cook for the adventurers. She was never meant to conquer monster tribes or negotiate a nation's treaties. But it happened. When the other PCs failed time and time again at their negotiations, the old crone would speak up and set things right. She soon became arespected member of the party and in time, she even revealed that she was a great sorceress.
After rendering aid to an ancient evil dragon, she was given the secret of summoning a powerful familiar. In her lust for power she slew her former cat familiar and sacrificed it to a devil lord to gain a more powerful servent. Her new consular imp than further corrupted her with notions of immortality. (Note that Hama is not after immortality so much as youth, beauty, and power--due to the imps deceptions she is not fully aware of what lichdom will truly entail for her.)
All in all a great roleplaying experience--and a great waste if she is murdered in her sleep just because the other players have an irrational fear of her.
If he insisted on being a Lich at level 11 I probably would have had a benefactor loan him the money he needed for a service to be named later.
Actually, Hama could have done just that. The party benefactor agreed to pay for Hama's ritual in full provided she signed a magical contract that would forever bind her to his service for forever and eternity. She turned down the offer. Had it been for 50 years or 100 years, then she would have said yes, but not for eternity.
Also, why would low mental stats make any difference when she was young? She was a ditzy blonde, so what? Now that she is older and has some tact, she is doing things. Also, the imp corrupted her (well, corrupted her more) with the tempations of lichdom in return for something she didn't think she even had to begin with (her soul). You don't need to be a genius archmage for something like that to happen.
Just something to add to consideration of a PC Lich. As NPC's a DM can custom build Lichs to have the best chance against a Party while it is a lot harder for a Party to always be prepared for everything. I'm actually a fairly restrictive DM but I would have no problem with players playing older PCs. I'm not really sure if I'd allow one of my players to take the Lich template but then again I've never even used one against players. There are too many things that make a difference from group to group. I like the OP's character, he seems to really have invested in the character both in game and out. He's attached, and with a RPG I find that tends to be the hardest thing to get players to really do. Its a hell of a creative character and let us know what happens with it. :)
I will.
See: Order of the Stick at Giant in the PlaygroundXykon, the lich antagonist is a sorcerer and it's often amusing to see how very powerful but not wise or intelligent is portrayed.
On the subject of Xykon... people seem to have this idea that Liches are going to destroy anybody in their path, and Xykon is an excellent example of that not being true. Hell, he practically depends on his right hand man. Sure he bosses the goblin cleric a bit, but said cleric also bosses Xykon right back from time to time, discussing logistics, tactics, etc.
(Also, Xykon is always recruiting new allies, and tends to treat them pretty well so long as they don't openly oppose him)
Evil. It's a growth industry.
(Ravingdork is with the most points so far.)I will remember this later one because basically his argument is that RP'ing should get you free stuff.
Edit: Now it makes more sense.
What? Wait. Someone is keeping score?
The character spends 120K gold to gain tangible benefits orders of magnitude more powerful if you tried to duplicate them with magic items. But that's balanced because they spent 120K. Your logic eludes me....
That's because you are looking at it the wrong way. You should be comparing the lich template to 240,000gp worth of magic items, since that's what you could create with 120,000gp. The phylactery rules make it clear that the 120,000gp is the COST, not the MARKET PRICE. So I ask you all to look at it from that persepctive. What would a straight wizard with his many bonus item creation feats be able to make with 120,000gp and 6 months? How does that now compare to the template?