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Honestly, this class is supposed to be about the summoner's preferred summon, the eidolon, and it was intended (as far as I can tell) as a way to power up that aspect of the class without actually upping the class's overall power level. I think it's a really good change to allow him to summon his main, preferred summon, more than once per day. I don't mind if that comes at the expense of his additional summons, which in my experience are used reasonably sparingly anyway (and if you don't want them to be used sparingly, they don't have to be, you just don't get the eidolon as well, which seems like a fair trade).
I think I did mention the more summons/day of the eidolon elsewhere when mentioning the changes. Sorry for not mentioning it here! I must have subconsciously avoided it because I was trying to appease the "this class is overpowered crowd," when my play experiences certainly don't lead me to believe it is.
Honestly, this class is supposed to be about the summoner's preferred summon, the eidolon, and it was intended (as far as I can tell) as a way to power up that aspect of the class without actually upping the class's overall power level. I think it's a really good change to allow him to summon his main, preferred summon, more than once per day. I don't mind if that comes at the expense of his additional summons, which in my experience are used reasonably sparingly anyway (and if you don't want them to be used sparingly, they don't have to be, you just don't get the eidolon as well, which seems like a fair trade).
I think I did mention the more summons/day of the eidolon elsewhere when mentioning the changes. Sorry for not mentioning it here! I must have subconsciously avoided it because I was trying to appease the "this class is overpowered crowd," when my play experiences certainly don't lead me to believe it is.
It wouldn't matter how many times you can summon it per day because you still can't summon it for 24 hours if it dies. This isn't a buff to the eidolon at all--the only reason they now need to be able to summon it more than once a day is that they may have to dismiss it temporarily to do another summon monster since they can't have both at once. Since it has unlimited duration, the Summoner would generally just keep it summoned at all times in the beta version anyway.
I have a lot of confidence in Jason's balance-fu, so I'm going to assume that Summoners received a substantial buff in some other area we don't know about yet to counteract this nerf.
Just have a flying creature swoop down and grab the summoner (or the eidolon, if the eidolon can fly). Take them 100 feet apart. I'd suggest one of those fliers who are really only good at grappling.
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Like most 'OMG, OP!' discussions, I'm seeing a lot of whining from people who haven't played one, and gotten to experience the joy of having an Eidolon with half the hit points of a Druid's Companion (and, quite possibly, half the hit points *of the Summoner himself*) out there getting it's face ripped off in almost every combat at 1st level, because it started the game with 6 (half of d10, +1 for Con 13) hit points[...]It's certainly possible that the eidolon is too flimsy at level 1 and too strong at level 9 (say).
In our group the eidolon has done quite well at low levels. With mage armor and improved natural armor he almost never got hit with his 20 AC. Add in 3 fairly decent attacks at full BAB and he was doing just fine.
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It wouldn't matter how many times you can summon it per day because you still can't summon it for 24 hours if it dies.
Is that confirmed? I don't remember him being explicit about that at the APG Banquet. It might still take too long to summon it to viably resummon it in the heat of combat, but you may be able to summon it again after combat. I don't think we know either way.
It wouldn't matter how many times you can summon it per day because you still can't summon it for 24 hours if it dies.Is that confirmed? I don't remember him being explicit about that at the APG Banquet. It might still take too long to summon it to viably resummon it in the heat of combat, but you may be able to summon it again after combat. I don't think we know either way.
From the Any News thread in the Paizocon subforum:
Flexibility for one. If his eidolon is not suited for the encounter at hand, he can use his summons to get a creature that is more suitable.
Second is death. If his eidolon dies, he cannot summon it again until the next day, but he can continue to use his summons to get useful creatures.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I doubt there is some buff to counter this HUGE nerf, or it would have been mentioned in the same breath. At this point the class is pointless to play. The summoner is the worst summoning class from a power standpoint.
I would suggest that it's the worst named class because it was never really designed to be a summoning class, it was designed to revolve around the eidolon.
This change pretty much brings it back in line with that original focus.
Considering the way the class plays currently in our group I suspect it will run just fine without the addition of always on Summon Monster in addition to always on Eidolons. We're still only 5th level so maybe that will change. I have seen some pretty nice eidolon builds for higher levels also so my feeling is the Summoner will be fine power wise... just not a very good "summoner".
Funny, I'm in a campaign with the exact opposite situation. If my Summoner and his eidolon (who was basically built to be as much like a couatl as possible) ganged up on the Fighter, he would easily stomp the both of us. The fighter's attack bonus is 7-9 points higher than my eidolon's, assuming no buffs and depending on which weapon he's currently using, he deals far more damage, has higher AC, higher hit points, better saves and, thanks to shield feats and adamantine armor, better damage reduction.
If the summoner really is limited to one summon/eidolon at a time, my character will go from barely useful to mildly useless.
It depends on the build. I doubt it would stomp one of the broken builds presented on the boards earlier.
It depends on the build. I doubt it would stomp one of the broken builds presented on the boards earlier.Funny, I'm in a campaign with the exact opposite situation. If my Summoner and his eidolon (who was basically built to be as much like a couatl as possible) ganged up on the Fighter, he would easily stomp the both of us. The fighter's attack bonus is 7-9 points higher than my eidolon's, assuming no buffs and depending on which weapon he's currently using, he deals far more damage, has higher AC, higher hit points, better saves and, thanks to shield feats and adamantine armor, better damage reduction.
If the summoner really is limited to one summon/eidolon at a time, my character will go from barely useful to mildly useless.
11th level fighter
+25 to hit. 1d8+15.
195 hit points
AC 36
Saves 18/11/14
Please, show me the Eidolon that matches up with that.
*It is worth noting we use a noticeably higher ability score generation method than the norm.
It depends on the build. I doubt it would stomp one of the broken builds presented on the boards earlier.Funny, I'm in a campaign with the exact opposite situation. If my Summoner and his eidolon (who was basically built to be as much like a couatl as possible) ganged up on the Fighter, he would easily stomp the both of us. The fighter's attack bonus is 7-9 points higher than my eidolon's, assuming no buffs and depending on which weapon he's currently using, he deals far more damage, has higher AC, higher hit points, better saves and, thanks to shield feats and adamantine armor, better damage reduction.
If the summoner really is limited to one summon/eidolon at a time, my character will go from barely useful to mildly useless.
11th level fighter
+25 to hit. 1d8+15.
195 hit points
AC 36
Saves 18/11/14Please, show me the Eidolon that matches up with that.
*It is worth noting we use a noticeably higher ability score generation method than the norm.
Are you breaking WBL also?
You make a fighter using the rules, and I can copy and paste an Eidolon that will beat that fighter.edit: I was not being snarky. I am only saying make a fighter by the rules and it will lose.
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11th level fighter
+25 to hit. 1d8+15.
195 hit points
AC 36
Saves 18/11/14Please, show me the Eidolon that matches up with that.
*It is worth noting we use a noticeably higher ability score generation method than the norm.
Can you please share with me how a fighter has those stats at 11th level? I just did a 16th level playtest and the fighter had fewer HP, a slightly higher AC, and lower saves than that.
The eidolon is constrained based on a set progression, the fighters stats can vary widely based on a lot of factors. If you use a 20 point build and standard wealth per level I find it unlikely you can build the character you laid out. I would suggest if your group has point buy higher than 20 points or equivalently high dice rolling methods a GM should bump the eidolon up to compensate.
Are you breaking WBL also?
My mistake, mighty Einar is actually 12th level. The only house rule that is applicable in play here is double max hit points for first level, which applies both ways.
For the purposes of your question though, yes, but for the purposes of the numbers quoted, no. The applicable stats are as follows. Note, they have been redacted in locations where the numbers in question were not applicable, and where wealth by level exceeded the norm.
AC 36, touch 17, flat-footed 32, (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +3 deflection, +3 natural, +7 shield)*
hp 195 (12d10 + 72 + 12 + 20 + 12)
CMD 36 [38 defending with heavy blades, 37 defending with thrown weapons)
Resist +3 vs. fear, +1 vs hot environment, +2 vs poison and drugs, +4 vs alcohol.
Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +14
_____________________________________________________________
Speed 30ft.
Melee Stjórnusleif +25/+20/+15 (1d8+15/17-20/x2) or
Melee Stjórnusleif +21/+16/+11 (1d8+23/17-20/x2) Power Attack
Base Atk +12; CMB +19
Attack Options Power Attack (-4/+8)
_____________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 22
SQ Armor training 3, bravery +3, weapon training (heavy blades +2, thrown weapons +1)
Feats Critical Focus, Dodge, Improved Critical (heavy blades), Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Shield Mastery****, Toughness, Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Weapon Specialization (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy blades).
Possessions +2 cold iron longsword (Stjórnusleif), +3 adamantine breastplate, +3 heavy steel shield, +3 cloak of resistance, +3 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor +3, +4 belt of strength, +4 amulet of con, gloves of dex +2
For the purposes of your question though, yes, but for the purposes of the numbers quoted, no.
Are you breaking WBL also?
I am confused
I am confusedFor the purposes of your question though, yes, but for the purposes of the numbers quoted, no.
Are you breaking WBL also?
We are exceeding WBL, but not for the purposes of the above stats. Everything that impacts AC, attack bonus, hit points, and so forth is bought within typically wealth by level. Essentially, it's all in things that do not impact the above stats.
AC 36, touch 17, flat-footed 32, (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +3 deflection, +3 natural, +7 shield)*
hp 195 (12d10 + 72 + 12 + 20 + 12)
CMD 36 [38 defending with heavy blades, 37 defending with thrown weapons)
Resist +3 vs. fear, +1 vs hot environment, +2 vs poison and drugs, +4 vs alcohol.
Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +14
_____________________________________________________________Speed 30ft.
Melee Stjórnusleif +25/+20/+15 (1d8+15/17-20/x2) or
Melee Stjórnusleif +21/+16/+11 (1d8+23/17-20/x2) Power Attack
Base Atk +12; CMB +19
Attack Options Power Attack (-4/+8)
_____________________________________________________________Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 22
SQ Armor training 3, bravery +3, weapon training (heavy blades +2, thrown weapons +1)
Feats Critical Focus, Dodge, Improved Critical (heavy blades), Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Shield Mastery****, Toughness, Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Weapon Specialization (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy blades).
Possessions +2 cold iron longsword (Stjórnusleif), +3 adamantine breastplate, +3 heavy steel shield, +3 cloak of resistance, +3 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor +3, +4 belt of strength, +4 amulet of con, gloves of dex +2
Pardon me, but this statblock is meaningless for the purpose of this discussion, since there's nothing to indicate how the character got the stats he has at the moment. Since you only gave the physical stats there's nothing that indicates whether it was a rolled up character, a point-build, or based on a stat array.
I would suggest that it's the worst named class because it was never really designed to be a summoning class, it was designed to revolve around the eidolon.
I think you can put some of the blame on the Final Fantasy video game series. It has a class called the Summoner that summons a single big creature, or so I gather.
It's kind of funny that the only thing broken on the eidolon is when people ultimize it for doing multi-attacks and make it large. Even then it dosen't seem that overpowered.
In response Paiso's nerf everthing else about the class to make up for one build. I guess I'm not getting the point why weaken the class as a whole for one broken build, why not just nerf that build.
The summoner was originally an exciting class now it's becomming lame, I hope the fokes at Pazio's no what their doing, it seems like thier out to make the entire class unplayable.
Looking back at my post above it seems a little rude to the guy’s at Paizo’s. The point I was trying to make is the class is actually a little on the weak size, in a nutshell the class is essentially a weaker version of a fighter with his own (limited) buff bot. There was nothing wrong with that, the only overpowered part of the class was when the eidolon could wear armor.
I just suggesting that if the change Jason is update goes into effect then either the eidolon needs a buff or the summoner needs something more to do then buff.
As a side note; does anyone else think it’s strange that the summoner has no social skills whatsoever, but has a high charisma. I mean cant we at least get intimidate added to our skill list?
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I would suggest that 28 strength is not optimal for the companion. The extra ability point may be better served by increasing its intelligence to 3 thus bypassing the problem with teaching it tricks from the Handle Animal section. Optimally, that puts its strength at 27.
Heh. Questionable. At level 7, it could know 9 of 13 tricks. Honestly getting 3 more doesn't bother me all that much.
It's not so much the extra tricks, but the fact that raising the Int to 3 is taken by most to mean the creature can understand language, thus negating, or reducing, the need for it to learn tricks at all.
Whether that's the intent, IDK. I would still expect tricks to be important, because by human standards, Int 3 is still really, really thick, so the creature should need hands-on guidance for a lot of things, and shouldn't be left alone to do things as though it were as bright as the (hopefully) Int 10+ player at the table.
But Int has always been a tricky stat to model.
I don't agree that an animal with Int 2 can be considered alert and clever (What's that, Skippy? Timmy's down the well?), but as soon as it raises its Int to 3, it becomes retarded. But neither should it become some wild savant, and start chairing party tactics meetings.
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I think people are seriously over-reacting to the changes to the summoner. The class is still the best summoning class there is most of the time. It just focuses a lot of its energy on its one big, awesome, relevant summns a lot of the time. Even if you can't resummon the eidolon after it dies, you can dismiss it when it's close to death and resummon it shortly thereafter.
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The quoted line refers to the spell like ability of the Summoner class, specifically "cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active IN THIS WAY at one time." Does that mean that the Summoner could have multiple summon monster spells up and running, a single use of his summon monster spell like ability, plus his Eidolon all active at the same time? If so, that's alot of actions available to the summoner. Can anyone shed some light on this?
That's certainly how I read it.
There shouldn't be a restriction on the number of summon spells the Summoner currently has active. Since no other class has that restriction, it would be rather strange to apply it here, to a class that is supposedly specialised in this school of magic.
Note that the summmons cast as spells will not benefit from the enhanced duration, only those using the SLA.
So it's justifiable to reduce the number of simultaneous SLA summons, since they are a special case (and in some cases, the extra duration is very useful indeed, for uses outside of combat).
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Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 22
Possessions +2 cold iron longsword (Stjórnusleif), +3 adamantine breastplate, +3 heavy steel shield, +3 cloak of resistance, +3 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor +3, +4 belt of strength, +4 amulet of con, gloves of dex +2
Will save base +4, iron Will +2, cloak of resistance +3 ??? That's +9, how do you get to +14 from there? A +5 WIS bonus? So your base stats are STR 20, DEX 15, CON 18, WIS 20? Even with 3 stat bumps at 4th, 8th, and 12th that's pretty high. Do you really think it's reasonable to compare an eidolon to a character with stats this far out from the base assumptions?
If characters in your game typically look like this then indeed the eidolon is a bit weak and your GM should cut it some slack. But the game is balanced based on 15-20 point buy with standard equipment and the game designers build the summoned eidolon based on that baseline, not based on your groups specific needs.
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I think that the folks at Paizo became too enamored over the draw of the 'build your own pet' part of the summoner.
It was from day one the intended focus of the class before the name was even announced. The name is unfortunately confusing.
They realized the problem, but were over committed to that aspect and have been trying to put out fires ever since.
It's not a good way to build a class, but that's just me.
Public play test... think about that a bit. The entire point of the process is to put the class out there and have people find the problems so they can 'put out the fires' before they release it.
I'd say ditch the customizable eidolon or put a lot more structure on it. Instead of a blanket number of points, make a real class out of it with class options. A linear scale begs for abuse and no one should be surprised when they see that happen.
What is surprising is that this did seem to catch Paizo flatfooted, and their response to dial things back simply mandates continuing a single focus there.
The entire point of the class is to put some of the fun of building and running a monster in the hands of the players. What you suggest is equivalent to saying the wizards spellcasting is too complicated and should be dialed back.
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Note that the summmons cast as spells will not benefit from the enhanced duration, only those using the SLA.
I'm not sure why anyone would bother to learn a summon spell as a known spell for a class that gets bard progression casting.
When the bar is set at, say, summon monster 7 at 13th level... being able to use a top level spell known as well as slot for the day to get a summon monster 5 seems.. well.. stupid.
Well, there are wands and scrolls.
I also don't expect players to pick many Summon Monster spells, if any, as their limited spells known, but they need to be on the class spell list so that they're available to use from items.
But Int has always been a tricky stat to model.
I don't agree that an animal with Int 2 can be considered alert and clever (What's that, Skippy? Timmy's down the well?), but as soon as it raises its Int to 3, it becomes retarded. But neither should it become some wild savant, and start chairing party tactics meetings.
While I don't disagree with your assertions, I would contest that you would have to be a fellow Antipodean to understand an obscure reference to Skippy. But now I'm curious. I wonder what her stat block and abilities would look like?
It's kind of funny that the only thing broken on the eidolon is when people ultimize it for doing multi-attacks and make it large. Even then it dosen't seem that overpowered.
In response Paiso's nerf everthing else about the class to make up for one build. I guess I'm not getting the point why weaken the class as a whole for one broken build, why not just nerf that build.
The summoner was originally an exciting class now it's becomming lame, I hope the fokes at Pazio's no what their doing, it seems like thier out to make the entire class unplayable.
There was more than one broken build. They just revolved around the same concepts.
I still argue that those builds aren't broke at all. Potential high damage outputs yes, but the whole time they have next to no hit points, crappy armor, and terrible saves.There was more than one broken build. They just revolved around the same concepts.It's kind of funny that the only thing broken on the eidolon is when people ultimize it for doing multi-attacks and make it large. Even then it dosen't seem that overpowered.
In response Paiso's nerf everthing else about the class to make up for one build. I guess I'm not getting the point why weaken the class as a whole for one broken build, why not just nerf that build.
The summoner was originally an exciting class now it's becomming lame, I hope the fokes at Pazio's no what their doing, it seems like thier out to make the entire class unplayable.
You did not see the same builds I saw.
1. Over 70 AC is not low. I will have to check to see what it was after the ruling was made that they could not wear armor, but it was at still decent.
2. 2 out of 3 good saves was not bad
3. Doing enough damage to take out the fighter in one round is a lot. Since the Eidolon does his damage through the number of attacks as opposed to a low number of high power attacks they can be held back with DR, but to give every monster in a game DR is to metagamey for me, and it just shows the number of attacks need to be scaled back.
4. The ones I saw did not have low HP. They did not have a great amount, but when you can one round things you only need enough to take a few hits.
Why would the party have to share items with the Eidolon? Nobody gives money to make sure my animal companion gets barding. I had to purchase his stuff out of my own money just as if I had a cohort.
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Why would the party have to share items with the Eidolon? Nobody gives money to make sure my animal companion gets barding. I had to purchase his stuff out of my own money just as if I had a cohort.
He is referring to the fact that eidolons share magic slots with their summoner so they can't use as many magic items between the two.
Why would the party have to share items with the Eidolon? Nobody gives money to make sure my animal companion gets barding. I had to purchase his stuff out of my own money just as if I had a cohort.He is referring to the fact that eidolons share magic slots with their summoner so they can't use as many magic items between the two.
That would be an issue. Maybe making the Eidolon more self reliant, but disallowing it to use magic items might fix that.
You did not see the same builds I saw.
1. Over 70 AC is not low. I will have to check to see what it was after the ruling was made that they could not wear armor, but it was at still decent.
2. 2 out of 3 good saves was not bad
3. Doing enough damage to take out the fighter in one round is a lot. Since the Eidolon does his damage through the number of attacks as opposed to a low number of high power attacks they can be held back with DR, but to give every monster in a game DR is to metagamey for me, and it just shows the number of attacks need to be scaled back.
4. The ones I saw did not have low HP. They did not have a great amount, but when you can one round things you only need enough to take a few hits.Why would the party have to share items with the Eidolon? Nobody gives money to make sure my animal companion gets barding. I had to purchase his stuff out of my own money just as if I had a cohort.
I never saw one with that much AC, I can link you one that Zurai made that had a 45ac, but even that build was created before the final pdf of the Advanced Players Handbook came out. The build would no longer work.
Most of the builds that I saw on the boards where not broken. Now I did see some, thanks Zurai, that where badly broken but as you said. They all revolved around making your Biped Eidolon huge and giving it 3 sets of arms and putting weapons in its hands so it had large number of attacks. I think with some better rules on arms/weapons and nerf large evolution, throw out the huge one, and most (but not all) of your problems are gone.
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Part of the problem may be that people are evaluating the announced change to the summoner without seeing what other subtle changes were made. I still stand by the fact that the summoner makes for an incredibly good summoner in general, but I'm sure Paizo has made other small changes to the class and I think nay-saying prior to seeing the finished product is a waste of time.
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Part of the problem may be that people are evaluating the announced change to the summoner without seeing what other subtle changes were made. I still stand by the fact that the summoner makes for an incredibly good summoner in general, but I'm sure Paizo has made other small changes to the class and I think nay-saying prior to seeing the finished product is a waste of time.
You can't stop people from nay-saying. Just look at all the people displeased by "Magus" being the new name for Gish! If people don't like what they hear, they say nay!
Are you breaking WBL also?
My mistake, mighty Einar is actually 12th level. The only house rule that is applicable in play here is double max hit points for first level, which applies both ways.
For the purposes of your question though, yes, but for the purposes of the numbers quoted, no. The applicable stats are as follows. Note, they have been redacted in locations where the numbers in question were not applicable, and where wealth by level exceeded the norm.
AC 36, touch 17, flat-footed 32, (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +3 deflection, +3 natural, +7 shield)*
hp 195 (12d10 + 72 + 12 + 20 + 12)
CMD 36 [38 defending with heavy blades, 37 defending with thrown weapons)
Resist +3 vs. fear, +1 vs hot environment, +2 vs poison and drugs, +4 vs alcohol.
Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +14
_____________________________________________________________Speed 30ft.
Melee Stjórnusleif +25/+20/+15 (1d8+15/17-20/x2) or
Melee Stjórnusleif +21/+16/+11 (1d8+23/17-20/x2) Power Attack
Base Atk +12; CMB +19
Attack Options Power Attack (-4/+8)
_____________________________________________________________Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 22
SQ Armor training 3, bravery +3, weapon training (heavy blades +2, thrown weapons +1)
Feats Critical Focus, Dodge, Improved Critical (heavy blades), Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Shield Mastery****, Toughness, Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Weapon Specialization (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy blades).
Possessions +2 cold iron longsword (Stjórnusleif), +3 adamantine breastplate, +3 heavy steel shield, +3 cloak of resistance, +3 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor +3, +4 belt of strength, +4 amulet of con, gloves of dex +2
Does it really matter if this fighter was build with above average scores ? I think not. The Summoner attached to the Eidolon will have good scores, too ;-)
Let's see if i can build an eidolon that can be compared to this fighter.
Biped Eiderlon (9 HD for 12th Level Summoner)
Evolution Cost
Ability Increase (Str) 2
Ability Increase (Str) 2
Ability Increase (Con) 2
Ability Increase (Con) 2
Large 4
Bite 1
Improved Natural Armor x2 2
Reach 1
Total 16 Points
Feats
Weapon Focus (Bite)
Weapon Focus (Claws)
Combat Refelxes
Power Attack
Cleave
Total 5
Equipment
Amulet of Mighty Fists (Holy) 20000
Belt of Giant Strength 36000
Metamagic Rods (Extend) 3000
Ring of Protection + 2 8000
Bracers of Armor 36000
Total 103000 gc
Final Stats:
Str: 40 Dex: 15 Con: 22 Int: 7 Wis: 10 Cha: 11
Attack: 27 (With Greater Magic Fang on 24h)
Damage Bit: 1d8 + 18 + 2d6 Holy
Damage Claws: 1d6 + 18 + 2d6 Holy
Saves: Fort: 12 Ref: 8 Will: 3
Reach: Bit 10ft. Claws 15 ft.
HP (average): 103,5
AC: 35
Conclusion
- Less HP than ref. Fighter
- Slidly better Attack/Damage than ref. Fighter
- a bit lesser AC
- much weaker saves
- much more reach than ref fighter +Combat Reflexes ;-)
So yes, it is possible to make an eidolon that can be compared to a fighter even with above average stats. But the question is how much power (equipment, items slots, spells) a Summoner is willing to devote to his pet.
Every new class that can be successfully added to the baseclass mix has to be better than fighter and worse than a full casting class.
The question is "Is the summoner class" so powerfull that it out shines all other party members?" I think no. The only problem i see is that a Summoners turns will take ages because of so many actions (Attack Eidolon, Spellcasting Summoner, attacks of his summoned monster)
I allways wanted to play a wizard with a golem pet. Now i will in our next compain (king maker) ...
Breiti
P.S.: To all out there that whine about the Summoners Pet is not powerfull engouh. Please do the math, take a standard paizo adventure and see the standard encounters for each level ... the Eidolon will have a great impact on the game. It will die form time to time but who cares it will be back 24h later ...
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As far as people demanding the Summoner concentrate more on actual summoning rather than the Eidolon, that's just what they prefer. If Paizo makes changes to the class in this direction, I'll be fairly unhappy. I, however, wouldn't have a problem with having Summoners concentrate on one or the other, chosen at 1st level. You'll have Summoners concentrating on summoning the Eidolon, and Summoners concentrating on summoning monsters.
As I love the Eidolon personally, I wouldn't mind "giving up" my summon monster SLAs to mess with the Eidolon a bit more. Maybe he's summonable Cha mod times per day. Maybe his EPs are increased by my Cha bonus. Maybe the Maker's Call ability is usable 3 + Cha mod times per day.... etc.
This, I think, would solve the "too many actions" issue, although I do 100% agree with James that this is more of a player issue. Still, doing this limits the extent to which it may occur.
On the other hand, the summon monster Summoners could have multiple summons at one time, and they could possibly have some other benefits.
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I, however, wouldn't have a problem with having Summoners concentrate on one or the other, chosen at 1st level. You'll have Summoners concentrating on summoning the Eidolon, and Summoners concentrating on summoning monsters.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. The Summoner is doing two things, neither of them particularly awesomely. A Focused Summoner that either went all Eidolon or all Summon Monster SLAs would probably be more satisfying at it's one role than a half-arsed attempt to do both, but not at the same time.
I kinda feel the same way about the Alchemist, really. A Jekyll and Hyde Alchemist and a Bomb-chucker and a buff/brew-meister are different concepts, and because the Alchemist can kinda / sorta do all three, it struggles to be a useful Mutagen user or Alchemy user or party buffer at low levels, because it's got a bunch of abilities and options that aren't relevant to any one specific focus. Instead you end up with someone who can make himself kinda not-really-Hyde and throw bombs and brew extracts that nobody else can drink, making him kinda crappy at three different things.
You did not see the same builds I saw.
1. Over 70 AC is not low. I will have to check to see what it was after the ruling was made that they could not wear armor, but it was at still decent.
2. 2 out of 3 good saves was not bad
3. Doing enough damage to take out the fighter in one round is a lot. Since the Eidolon does his damage through the number of attacks as opposed to a low number of high power attacks they can be held back with DR, but to give every monster in a game DR is to metagamey for me, and it just shows the number of attacks need to be scaled back.
4. The ones I saw did not have low HP. They did not have a great amount, but when you can one round things you only need enough to take a few hits.Why would the party have to share items with the Eidolon? Nobody gives money to make sure my animal companion gets barding. I had to purchase his stuff out of my own money just as if I had a cohort.
I never saw one with that much AC, I can link you one that Zurai made that had a 45ac, but even that build was created before the final pdf of the Advanced Players Handbook came out. The build would no longer work.
Most of the builds that I saw on the boards where not broken. Now I did see some, thanks Zurai, that where badly broken but as you said. They all revolved around making your Biped Eidolon huge and giving it 3 sets of arms and putting weapons in its hands so it had large number of attacks. I think with some better rules on arms/weapons and nerf large evolution, throw out the huge one, and most (but not all) of your problems are gone.
When they first came out they could wear armor, plus any magical item. Even a fighter can get up to 60 if he focuses on it. On top of that the eidolon has natural armor, there is the feat for improving that, and it is possible to boost it more by spending evolution points.
The only problem i see is that a Summoners turns will take ages because of so many actions (Attack Eidolon, Spellcasting Summoner, attacks of his summoned monster)
People cite this as fact, when it boils down to issues of the player.
A decently prepared player can run a summoner in a reasonable time-frame.
I've seen players dither over actions, have trouble with their stats or calculating buffs, etc.
Classes that run pets & summons can be worse than others with unprepared players, but the problem is not the classes but rather the player.
-James
+1. If this was an issue then druids would be an issue.