If you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
Some Favored Enemy choices? Seems like an appropriate fair trade (more of a divine hunter instead of a divine smiter).
Is the player asking for a particular concept that smiting doesn't fit with? Any background on the character made yet?
If you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
Give them Favored Enemy for Dragons, Undead, or Evil Outsider (their choice) at 1/2 character level round down(min1)?
Alternately, flip through some of the old dragon mags and 3.5 books for class substitutions as inspiration.
Depending on why he is removing smite evil...
If he does not want the offensive power, then maybe give him extra lay on hands or mercies for each smite.
If he does not want to have to declare a smite but get a broader use vs more targets maybe give him access to a fighter feat for each smite he gives up.
It all depends of his character concept and the role he wishes to have.
Maybe you can consider giving him two Cleric Domains;
- With a maximum of 4th level domain spells (Following his paladin spell progression)
- The domain powers are granted at twice the normal levels. (Like, a 3rd cleric level domain power would be attained at 6th paladin level).
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i'd just smack the player and tell 'em nut up or shut up.
If you wanna play a pally, and not smite feel free. not my problem they're choosing to gimp the group.
with all the awesomeness that smite evil is now i don't know why you wouldn't want to use it.
but hey, i guess not everyone likes ignoring DR and adding Cha to ac...
i'd just smack the player and tell 'em nut up or shut up.
If you wanna play a pally, and not smite feel free. not my problem they're choosing to gimp the group.
with all the awesomeness that smite evil is now i don't know why you wouldn't want to use it.
but hey, i guess not everyone likes ignoring DR and adding Cha to ac...
Possibly the player just does not like the new flavour, I don't either.
Smite evil is quite possibly the main power in a paladins arsenal now though, it all depends on how far you are willing to go to adjust to the player and what the player wants.
Favoured enemies combined with the 3.5 smite evil would be a decent choice if that is what he / she looking for. Dropping smite evil completely will be harsh, but.. perhaps allow spells to be cast as a swift action and give him / her access to a domain like a cleric would.
Aura of smiting might be protection from evil 5'radius per cha modifier as free action for a LoH use.
Perhaps the Paladin can trade in their Shining Finger (yes the english voice actor is crap) attack for the ability to grant defensive abilities/augmentations to themselves their allies?
Since Smite enables the Paladin to overcome DR and grants a deflection bonus to the Paladin, plus the increase in damage (I'm not sure of the errata but I believe this damage bonus/DR overcoming only lasts for that single Smite attack, not like the Deflection bonus), perhaps the 'Divine Shield' should in turn grant the Paladin's companions, as long as they are of Good Alignment and not Chaotic, DR 1/Evil or Chaotic for every 2 levels the Paladin has, meaning at 10th level the Paladin can expend her Divine Shield ability and grant every non-chaotic and non-evil ally within 30 feet DR 5/Evil or Chaotic for a number of rounds equal to double her Charisma Bonus.
Just a random idea, actually, but it could work, perhaps. Makes the Paladin a much more valuable character in a party that needs higher defence, of course the DM can counter with Demons, naturally, to overcome this DR.
If you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
Try Paladins Prevail by Gun Metal Games, they have all sorts of alertnate abilities. I dont own it myself so can' tell you how good it is, but it gets decent reviews and maybe helpful
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Try Paladins Prevail by Gun Metal Games, they have all sorts of alertnate abilities. I dont own it myself so can' tell you how good it is, but it gets decent reviews and maybe helpfulIf you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
It is quite good, but there are no options to replace Smite Evil.
Otherworld Creation's Genius Guide to Archer Archetypes has sufggestions for swapping class abilities and Smite Evil is included in one of their pacakges.
Try Paladins Prevail by Gun Metal Games, they have all sorts of alertnate abilities. I dont own it myself so can' tell you how good it is, but it gets decent reviews and maybe helpfulIf you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
It is quite good, but there are no options to replace Smite Evil.
Otherworld Creation's Genius Guide to Archer Archetypes has sufggestions for swapping class abilities and Smite Evil is included in one of their pacakges.
ok, there ya go, thanks for the clarification
If you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
I'd point them to the Cavalier. Or a Fighter with Leadership so they could have a mount. Or the Ranger with Heavy Armor Proficiency. If they don't like the way the class is they should, I don't know, not play it? "But my character concept it..." entirely unrelated to class. You can be a holy warrior with a strict internal code in any class, Paladin just happens to require it.
Reminds me of the time I played in a group where a player talked the DM into letting him get bonus feats for giving up Tower Shield, Heavy Armor and Medium Armor proficiency in his fighter, since he wasn't going to use them anyway. Seriously broken character.
Hi everybody,
The Paladin in question is the primary healer. The party is composed of a Witch a Rogue a Ranger and a fighter. He's not interested in the smite mechanic or being a Cleric. I guess, being an ultimate evil-smasher is a little extreme for his character, he is more of a soldier/hospitaler. I want to find a suitable substitute, some ideas:
Ranger favored enemy (already mentioned)
Extra LOH and channel (start it at first level)
Casting as Inquisitor (maybe too much?)
Cavalier's challenge (almost the same thing, but more mundane)
Inquisitor's judgement (again, similar, but not so severe)
Of these, the most likely is number two, extra LOH... but how much extra?
Of these, the most likely is number two, extra LOH... but how much extra?
I would double it. I would also double his mercy selections.
I guess another thought would be to give him BOTH of the Divine Bonds, instead of making him choose just one, since they scale with level like Smite does.
Yes, some great Ideas folks!
Doubling LOH might be a good solution, something like Level+cha, starting it at first (with channel still coming at 4th, or move to second level?). Not sure how I feel about double mercies though...
Seems a little weak for giving up smite... but you know, have your cake and what not.
Yes, some great Ideas folks!
Doubling LOH might be a good solution, something like Level+cha, starting it at first (with channel still coming at 4th, or move to second level?). Not sure how I feel about double mercies though...
Seems a little weak for giving up smite... but you know, have your cake and what not.
as a different thought, how about the Cleric Warpriest(Holy Warrior?) substitution from the..hmm..campaign setting book? basically a cleric that gives up domains and gets full BAB and d10 HD? i forget if they get heavy armor and/or martial weapons but it sworth looking up. they can play melee guy and have full cleric spells plus channel energy.
as a different thought, how about the Cleric Warpriest(Holy Warrior?) substitution from the..hmm..campaign setting book? basically a cleric that gives up domains and gets full BAB and d10 HD? i forget if they get heavy armor and/or martial weapons but it sworth looking up. they can play melee guy and have full cleric spells plus channel energy.Yes, some great Ideas folks!
Doubling LOH might be a good solution, something like Level+cha, starting it at first (with channel still coming at 4th, or move to second level?). Not sure how I feel about double mercies though...
Seems a little weak for giving up smite... but you know, have your cake and what not.
Hmmm, don't have the setting book, but this is interesting...
If you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
What does he want from the paladin class? If he just wants to be a lawful good religious character he can RP that and just be a fighter.
What does he want from the paladin class?
Everything else other than the smite?
The way some people are talking here, it's like they've never heard of ability swapping before, or maybe the impression is that the Paladin is some one-trick pony, and without smite he's basically a Fighter with some added restrictions.
Asking to play a Paladin with an alternative to smite is a perfectly cromulent request. They have the Lay on Hands mechanic, which was boosted with Mercies. They have the Divine Bond (weapon or mount), and a series of Auras.
They are a Charisma-based divine caster, with great magical defenses, and a great selection of spells for a half-caster.
All wrapped in a combat-focused class (d10 and full BAB).
At least three of those mechanics would be impossible to find anywhere (and could only be replicated with judicious use of magic and items, which really makes for a completely different concept of character).
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Considering he wants to go more of the healer route, I think giving extra Lay on Hands and Mercies would be perfect.
Note that giving more mercies means he can heal status effects while healing, making up for the lack of spell slots and levels (curing blindness and such without the need of the spell).
What does he want from the paladin class?Everything else other than the smite?
The way some people are talking here, it's like they've never heard of ability swapping before, or maybe the impression is that the Paladin is some one-trick pony, and without smite he's basically a Fighter with some added restrictions.
Asking to play a Paladin with an alternative to smite is a perfectly cromulent request. They have the Lay on Hands mechanic, which was boosted with Mercies. They have the Divine Bond (weapon or mount), and a series of Auras.
They are a Charisma-based divine caster, with great magical defenses, and a great selection of spells for a half-caster.
All wrapped in a combat-focused class (d10 and full BAB).At least three of those mechanics would be impossible to find anywhere (and could only be replicated with judicious use of magic and items, which really makes for a completely different concept of character).
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Considering he wants to go more of the healer route, I think giving extra Lay on Hands and Mercies would be perfect.
Note that giving more mercies means he can heal status effects while healing, making up for the lack of spell slots and levels (curing blindness and such without the need of the spell).
I agree fully. I think the extra mercy/loh is the route I'll go. Need to find a sub for aura of justice though at 11th level...
I try to be flexible for character concepts, a sorcerer should be able to get a familiar no matter their bloodline, so I allow them to swap the equivalent power out, if a ranger doesn't want spells, I allow them to take a animal companion at 1st level in exchange, etc. It's not about power-gaming, and it is not about keeping perfect balance (which isn't their to begin with) it's about building unique characters.
If you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
Personally, I'm not in favour of switching class features. The classes are already customizable enough IMO. Most classes have multiple features suiting different types of character, but not all types of character have to use all features of the class. Also, stealing from another class kind of goes against the system of classes in the first place; each have their own signature and mix-matching is achieved via multiclassing. That's in my opinion of course, and yours may differ.
But lets be constructive here; in exchange of a class features, I'd suggest extra uses of an already available feature of the class, or bonus skill points. A bonus feat (a single feat mind you, not one for each smite/day in this case) would not be out of question either.
'findel
A single bonus feat... in exchange for one of the best scaling physical combat class features in the game? Wow you must REALLY hate class feature exchanges.
No, i actually kind of love the concept of substitution levels, but I'm afraid that as a generic rule, I'd end up with a player wanting to exchange Smite Evil, Auras and Mercies for a feat each time. Basically creating a a fighter with more feat, better saves, a handful of spells, a divine bond and a better skill selection.
Yeah, I can definitely see the concern there. I guess in this case what you might want to do would be restrict it to a single exchange. Exchanging smite for a bonus feat progression (end up with 7 of them, perhaps allow them to treat themselves as a Fighter of 1/2 their Paladin level) would be fine, but trying to swap out Smite and the other stuff at the same time would be lame lol.
True, anyone who want to play a smite-less, aura-less and mercy-less paladin deserve to be booted out the front door! But short of a semi-official set of substitution levels, exchanging class features deserve a case-by-case treatment, which is Ok as long as everyone around the table is Ok with it.
Personally, I have mix feelings about this. On one hand, that's what the class has to offer. When we accept a class system like D&D, we accept to receive packaged deals, and even if we are not using all the elements of the package, that's how its sold and that's how we bought it. Allowing to deconstruct the class opens just as much issues as opportunities, especially since other class features can be acquired legitimately via multiclassing.
On the other hand, sometimes I just want to have my pepsi exchanged for a coffee and I don't see why it should be a big friggin' deal.
The problem in all of this is that not all class features have the same value and judging which worth what isn't always obvious. As much as I'd like it, I usually can't have my pepsi exchanged for another burger...
In the end, it appears easier for me to allow more of something the class already has. It stays thematic, doesn't step on anyone's toes and shouldn't throw the balance of the game out of the window.
As with anything, YMMV
Sorry, but what does YMMV stand for?
Sorry, but what does YMMV stand for?Your Mileage May Vary.
Oh yes, that saying... thanks
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Try Paladins Prevail by Gun Metal Games, they have all sorts of alertnate abilities. I dont own it myself so can' tell you how good it is, but it gets decent reviews and maybe helpfulIf you had a player who wanted to play a Paladin, but did not want smite-evil, what would be a fair trade-off to replace the smite ability?
It is quite good, but there are no options to replace Smite Evil.
Otherworld Creation's Genius Guide to Archer Archetypes has sufggestions for swapping class abilities and Smite Evil is included in one of their pacakges.
I have the Archer Archetypes...I would definitely recommend it. It allows for near infinite possibilities by breaking the base classes down into archetypes and allows for swapping of abilities between classes in addition to the new archer builds it presents.