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In response to a few recent posts I would point out that not every existing character class immediately evokes the proper image in a non-gamer's mind, and not all of them are obvious in their pronunciation. (I shudder at how many times I have heard "pa-LAD-in")
Paladin - As has been pointed out, plenty of people have heard at one time or another the question "What's a paladin?" Even if the person in question knew their history they would think "Okay, so it's a French crusader-knight", which is still a bit of stretch.
Ranger - Unless he knew Tolkien (certainly a possibility if he is about to play a fantasy RPG, but not assumed), the player may be asking "What, I'm in the US Army now?"
Oracle - Probably the most misnamed class I have seen, I know that every time I ever introduce a new player to Pathfinder I will have to explain that this class is not, in fact, a divine, er, diviner.
Furthermore, I would like to reinforce my point that a "full-caster" class being inept in personal combat is kind of an RPG trope. Someone who knew nothing about D&D but had read/watched LotR (or played the Playstation games!) would probably expect their Wizard to be able to kick butt for goodness with sword and staff. Therefore a name such as Warlock or Magus could serve perfectly well to evoke the image of a warrior-mage, at least as well as the aforementioned class names evoke their particular concepts.
And finally, on the topic of the Athame. This was, as previously mentioned, my third choice, both because I found the idea of naming a class after an item a tad bit awkward, and because it is an obscure enough word that there is little to no chance that even most gamers would know what you are talking about without explanation, let alone a non-gamer! With all due respect to Mr. Cook I was totally unaware of his usage of the word and associated class, as I tend to stay away from 'third party' products as a general rule. If Paizo did want to use the word however, I, as someone who has and will again use an athame for its intended purpose, say go right ahead. I would suggest Kris as an alternative, but then everyone would think that was the character's name. :P Maybe the Zoroastrian Kaplo...?
Anyhow, as the Paizo staff has already stated that they have pretty much made their decision this entire post is mostly pointless. That said, I enjoy the debate for its own sake, so here you are. :)
Not offended, really. Yes, I'm pagan, but it's not about "offense". I just feel that because it's a tool, an object, it seems awkward to me.
See this is me as well, I am not offended, but the "Oh it's a magic dagger" crew have it wrong. I can not get it. To me and anyone else who really knows the word is is a tool and not a weapon. It simply does not fit the use they seem to want at all.
I would suggest Kris as an alternative, but then everyone would think that was the character's name.
Dirk?
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Not offended, really. Yes, I'm pagan, but it's not about "offense". I just feel that because it's a tool, an object, it seems awkward to me.
See this is me as well, I am not offended, but the "Oh it's a magic dagger" crew have it wrong. I can not get it. To me and anyone else who really knows the word is is a tool and not a weapon. It simply does not fit the use they seem to want at all.
Look, I understand this, Ireally do. The only reason I suggested Athame is because I'm Wicca, and I know Athame is a tool. Just like names.
The name of the class does not have to have anything to do with the actual class. Wizard could be called Mage, Sorcerer, Warlock, Merlin, etc and it is still a spellcaster.
In the case of Athame though, it made sense to me to that the new gish should be called such, as the athame is a magical tool used for spells and the crafting of wands. It is a dagger used for magic, which brings to mind for me(in0game terms anyway) the Arcane Bond of the Wizard and the skill fighters and rogues have(or can have) with daggers.
Also: I pronounce it Ah-Tha-May. Don't know why, I just do.
This has been a fun post to follow. So much so that I have actually registered so I can post :-)
Have been thinking a bit about the role of a fighter/wizard blend. We have infantry, artillery, medics, combat engineers, cavalry type roles covered by usual core classes. A fighter/wizard seems to me to be like a commando/shock troop role.
The germans used Sturmtruppen in WWI and italians had Arditi, dervied from 'Adire' - to dare (like who dares wins). Maybe some variant on either of those would be cool.
Sturmtruppen? Are you really bringing storm troopers in Pathfinder? :D
It's just another compound word (German builds words like this much more often than English) meaning Attack troops.
I'm against "harbinger" for a fighter/mage much in the same way that I was opposed to "oracle" for a favored soul, except more so. The connotation of harbinger is "an omen," a sign of things to come -- which has approximately zero connection with a sword- and spell-wielding heroic character.
Just took a quick browse through the thread. I'm liking Harbinger, Brand, Vanguard and Warder. Not that there aren't other good suggestions but those are the four that really speak to me. GJ all.
By the way, Vanguard is actually a very old portmanteau. ;-)
Although I am not a big fan of Vanguard, I do think that the really old ones, especially those of germanic origin, should be exempt as long as they were once appellations applied to a real type of person.
There are a TON of germanic portmanteaus because of the structure of that language.
I think the restriction should apply only to "new" portmanteaus: words people are bashing together for the present thread.
Still hoping for a dark horse here. Can we think of mythological armies that used casting? Something Arabic or Chinese would be welcome as long as it isn't a metaphor or a personal name.
Look, I understand this, Ireally do. The only reason I suggested Athame is because I'm Wicca, and I know Athame is a tool. Just like names.
The name of the class does not have to have anything to do with the actual class. Wizard could be called Mage, Sorcerer, Warlock, Merlin, etc and it is still a spellcaster.
In the case of Athame though, it made sense to me to that the new gish should be called such, as the athame is a magical tool used for spells and the crafting of wands. It is a dagger used for magic, which brings to mind for me(in0game terms anyway) the Arcane Bond of the Wizard and the skill fighters and rogues have(or can have) with daggers.
Also: I pronounce it Ah-Tha-May. Don't know why, I just do.
Like I said I was not offended I just can't accept it as a good name for it fits as well as something like calling it a rosary. It just doe not fit, not to me, not in the lest. It is just one of those things where the word simply does not match the perception of the ideal your trying to attach it to
Also I pronounce it the same way you do
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There are a TON of germanic portmanteaus because of the structure of that language.
I think the restriction should apply only to "new" portmanteaus: words people are bashing together for the present thread.
Navigator, set a course for Port Manteau. Where? Why, it's in Flam Bay, just down the coast from Port Obella.
Hermetic?
Magus was already mentioned, but I thought I'd give it a bump. My positive association for this one is the tarot card, (the magician) which is (almost) always pictured with a sword. *shrug*
Hermetic?
Magus was already mentioned, but I thought I'd give it a bump. My positive association for this one is the tarot card, (the magician) which is (almost) always pictured with a sword. *shrug*
Nice point!
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When I hear Magus I think of chrono trigger. Though I guess that's not a bad thing, since the character by that name did wield a bad-ass scythe whilst simultaneously being considered a master of magic.
That rings a bell in some weird way, but when I search for it all I come up with is references to 'Sabrina the Teenaged Witch' which I've never seen
Hexcalibur
Ah eeeeewwwww. I don't want Gish to become synonymous with an Archie Comics character. Especially one that has been mangled in that regard.
Bring back the original Sabrina.
Another unconventional technique:
Google these terms and check the image search, then compare which terms have images that look like people you would NOT want to be in melee with (but still look like casters).
Also, if you google your term and get no images of a caster OR melee weapon: you lose this thread.
Still hoping for a dark horse here. Can we think of mythological armies that used casting? Something Arabic or Chinese would be welcome as long as it isn't a metaphor or a personal name.
Well, I suggested Youxia or Xiake - those are Chinese, not so much mythological armies though. They're the hero types in wuxia (wire-fu) movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Hero. But pronunciation could be an issue...
Also Dervish, though again that's a type of person rather than a mythological army or something.
Umm...hmm...well, if you want to go to Japanese myth, there's Murakumo or Kusanagi, which is a magical sword (the same magical sword, just got renamed after a particular incident involving a big snake thing).
Another unconventional technique:
Google these terms and check the image search, then compare which terms have images that look like people you would NOT want to be in melee with (but still look like casters).
Also, if you google your term and get no images of a caster OR melee weapon: you lose this thread.
In fairness to my suggestion, I took Hexcalibur from this alias: Hexcaliber.
Visionary
Only if they sport a black tshirt.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Dear Erik Mona,
The thread has begun to get light on new suggestions and heavy on debate. Is this what you want? Are you still actively seeking new suggestions? Is the debate influencing anyone's decision making there at Paizo on which name, if any of these, to choose?
I haven't added any suggestions in a long time once the thread got to the point that it contained several dozen solid, rule-following class names. If you're wanting more from us, I'll happily go back to scouring dictionaries and thesauri to find more.
I dunno. I'm still checking in on it every day or so. The suggestions are more helpful than the debate, but whatever. I don't want to get into telling people what they can and can't post.
I'm certain this thread has been helpful. We haven't made a decision on this yet, but when we do everyone who has made a contribution to this thread will have helped to get us where we're going.
Let's look at it this way:
1. We need a name for what's essentially two classes in one.
2. We need a real, non-compound, non-nonsense word that hasn't aleady been used, but it needs to sound cool.
3. We need a name that honors Erik Mona, the founder of this contest.
I therefore nominate Monad, for those three reasons.
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Let's look at it this way:
1. We need a name for what's essentially two classes in one.
2. We need a real, non-compound, non-nonsense word that hasn't aleady been used, but it needs to sound cool.
3. We need a name that honors Erik Mona, the founder of this contest.I therefore nominate Monad, for those three reasons.
Replace the first letter of that name with a G and you'll see an inherent problem with that suggestion :)
Replace the first letter of that name with a G and you'll see an inherent problem with that suggestion :)
Replace the "R" in rogue with a "Ch," and the "-gu" with a "d," and you have much the same problem, but nobody's lobbying to bring back the name "Thief" instead...
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Replace the first letter of that name with a G and you'll see an inherent problem with that suggestion :)Replace the "R" in rogue with a "Ch," and the "-gu" with a "d," and you have much the same problem, but nobody's lobbying to bring back the name "Thief" instead...
Wait, I thought it had an "a" in it.
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Replace the first letter of that name with a G and you'll see an inherent problem with that suggestion :)Replace the "R" in rogue with a "Ch," and the "-gu" with a "d," and you have much the same problem, but nobody's lobbying to bring back the name "Thief" instead...
I probably should have added a <tongue-in-cheek> tag to that.
It's a longshot, but:
Valkyrie
?
Magus is good, and I also liked wyrdling or wyrd.
Sardaukar would be cool, but probably owned.
Thanks Erik Mona. Well said.
Battlemancer
As a thought, since Gish is essentially a made up term for a group of fictional people, namely githyanki, it is acceptable to actually make up a name. It doesn't have to have a place in history, at least not this world's history. Create a history for this type of class from ancient Azlant.
HexcaliburAh eeeeewwwww. I don't want Gish to become synonymous with an Archie Comics character. Especially one that has been mangled in that regard.
Bring back the original Sabrina.
On further consideration. I still like it. Google searches or not. Search 'Gish' in Google and you don't even get Fighting Arcanist. I got tired of looking after the first 50 links.
Hexcalibur is still in.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Battlemancer
As a thought, since Gish is essentially a made up term for a group of fictional people, namely githyanki, it is acceptable to actually make up a name. It doesn't have to have a place in history, at least not this world's history. Create a history for this type of class from ancient Azlant.
Not to stifle any lane of exploration on this difficult challenge, but we try pretty carefully to avoid in-world Golarion stuff in the core rulebooks, so at least here in the office a Golarion-based name for this wouldn't be very appropriate.
I mean, I know we have a few small Easter egg references here and there, and the cleric god list is there because it needs to be, but beyond that we generally try to keep our rulebooks world-neutral.
A good policy, I think, and one I suspect a lot of players appreciate.
well, it seems to me that Pazio Con will announce at least one new base class who is gish and will be called (I think) Warlock or Magus, though I still like mystic. That one fits the bill to me
Yes, its kind of monkish, but it displays a sense of awe and aloofness to one who has dedicated himself to both the arcane and martial arts. It meets the requirements set forth by Mr Mona. And does avoid the 3.5 reference problem that the Warlock has
I still like mystic. That one fits the bill to me
And does avoid the 3.5 reference problem that the Warlock has
Never mind that there's already a Mystic Theurge class in Pathfinder...
Arknight(pronounced Arc Knight)
You know, that's a pretty darn cool name.
Took me a while to read through all these suggestions, and there were a lot of really creative ones! After reading through some of the discussion I came to agree with the view that the new word should be recognizable to newcomers, while acknowledging that there are no real world equivalents, so there is no one word that will be recognized by newcomers as a sword wielding magic-user. I recommend using an established word easily recognizable by most people and then developing an in game etymology. The two I vote for are Dragoon and Warlock. It really doesn't matter what these words meant originally, because obviously in the context of a fantasy world this new group of people will be markedly different then their real world counterparts.
Of the two I voted for I like Dragoon best because I think it would be really easy to develop an interesting etymology that describes the nature of the class. For example:
Dragoons are a group of soldiers who chose to model their combat tactics after powerful dragons. It was noticed that dragons had many tools in their arsenal. Well armored, powerful physical weapons, and deadly arcane abilities all part of one deadly package. The dragoons were inspired to follow a similar course. The spend their lives training to blend the use of weapons, armor, and magic into a well orchestrated dance of destructive power.
This dragoon quite clearly has nothing to do with it's mobile infantry namesake (but a bunch of soldiers that have the ability to teleport and fly would make quite the mobile infantry!), but it seams iconic enough to fit into a fantasy setting. Obviously the same could, and will, be done with any other name that is chosen. But I think equating fighter-mages with dragons is a good way to distance the class from the word "Gish". As an added bonus all the fighter-mage haters can shorten the name to "Goons". So see there is something for everyone :)
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I apologize if someone posted this, but:
Armagus
Ar from arma the Latin word for weapon and magus, well... magus is the Latin word for Zorastrian, but we've pretty much taken it a magician.
This one replaces my previous favorite. Whatever that was. I've slept since then...
Armagus. Ooh, it even sounds kinda medieval-y!
'Call up the armagus!' (I think it would work better as one of those words that is both plural and singular. 'Armagi' doesn't have the same flow to it, IMO.)
Granted, it's totally a compound word, being pretty much a bastardized Latin version of 'Warmage,' but I like it!
I'm against "harbinger" for a fighter/mage much in the same way that I was opposed to "oracle" for a favored soul, except more so. The connotation of harbinger is "an omen," a sign of things to come -- which has approximately zero connection with a sword- and spell-wielding heroic character.
Harbinger would have perhaps been a cooler name for 'Hexblade,' however, since dooms and curses and portents fit the theme of that 'fighter / magic-user' a little bit better.
For a more generic sword-n-sorcery / sword-and-blaster guy? Not so much.
Hmm...
What about Spellslinger?
It isn't a nonsense word because its meaning is obvious. It's a single word as much as 'spellcaster' is. And it's fairly evocative of someone who uses magic primarily for blasting people.
Since it is a compound word I'm not sure it meets the criteria. Additionally I like less specific descriptions for classes. There are all kinds of fighters, rogues, and wizards and there are many different fighter-mage builds out there. Spellslinger seems to be only applicable to one version of the fighter-mage, the ray specialist who can also carry a sword. I personally like the variation of the toe-to-toe meleeist who releases spells through his weapon of choice, and uses magic to enhance/buff himself. Spellslinger wouldn't be a very apt description of that character.