What happened here? Did the DM just change the rules to screw with the players, or did he make a campaign setting decision that changed the difficulty of the encounter? And is this somehow punishing the players?
Yes, it is. You are not rewarding the player for solving the challenge. The player is being punished by the DM winging it in order to arbitrarily dismiss one solution to the challenge.
Are we going to rule out every high level spell that can automatically kill monsters because automatically killing the monster with one spell would be "too efficient?" Who wants to run a spellcaster then?
Your example does not match his. An appropriate comparison to the subject is 'you use slay giant? This giant is immune to slay spells'. Because the dm is fudging the encounter because he felt it was overcome too easily by raw.And I disagree with that action as punishing the players.
It would depend on how it was done.
If the DM is creating house rules on the fly just to make things harder for the players, then discarding those rules once the encounter is over... That leaves a bad taste in most players mouth, myself included. It also destroys suspension of disbelief as well.
If they make decisions about the game world, and apply them consistantly to friend and foe alike, it can make for unique and interesting encounters.
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Another example. The party was peering under a barred door to decide if it was worth investigating. I suggested using light on a copper piece and sliding it under to lighten the area. The dm decided that because the coin was small it let off less light. My idea was not rewarded, it was punished by changing the rules of the spell.
You are still not matching his example. The dm prepared for the spells his party had so the challenge would not be trivial, while leaving them a chance to learn before and adjust tactics.
Cartigans example was:
'You're in a desert. You need water to survive this trip.'
'I'll have create water prepped.'
'I'm changing that spell so find a different way.'
'WTF?'
Which seems to be not matching most of the other examples here which seem to be be: "I am running a campaign in a desert and wish a lack of water to be a threat, which is why I am modifying certain spells that would have made it a laughable issue."
I'm also confused by your linking yourself with Cartigan, because you seem to be agreeing with him while your arguments are not harmonious with each other.
I'm probably not posting very coherently. Bored out of my mind at the office and typing all of this on a blackberry. I may be misunderstanding the thrust of his thread.
From my understanding, the thrust of the thread is that if you are ever changing a spell because it ruins a challenge in your world, you are doing it wrong.
So far, the arguments I recall from you are limited to just pulling the rug from under a player when they try to cast a spell to solve a problem.
The difference that I see is that one allows for a GM to alter things at some point to fit their game, while the other cannot seem to tolerate it.
So if the DM had made a game world decision that contradicted the usual rules and the players decided to metagame rather than research the conditions, it's the DM's fault?
Deciding giants are giants = metagaming.
DMs making giants NOT giants at the last minute to screw over players - a-ok and encouraged.
When is a giant not a giant?
I'll bet the answer has something to do with power attacking deserts, endless watery angles, or the Hounds of Tindalos.
Is a miniature giant space hamster still a giant?
Ooohh, that's one of those jumbo shrimp mysteries.
Is a miniature giant space hamster still a giant?
All depends on your definitions. By Pathfinder rules, I'd say the answer is "isn't and never was" following the logic that the giant ant in the Bestiary is defined as "vermin" rather than "ant."
However, personally for my own games, I'm fond of a MtG style classification system where types and subtypes can stack: Fir Bolg can be both Fey and Giants. You don't stop being an elf because you are now also a vampire, and elves and goblins can both be fey while also still being elves and goblins. That sort of thing.
I generally only give "giant" to creatures from Jotunheim, regardless of where they are living now. But again, it all depends on your definitions. ;)
However, personally for my own games, I'm fond of a MtG style classification system where types and subtypes can stack: Fir Bolg can be both Fey and Giants. You don't stop being an elf because you are now also a vampire, and elves and goblins can both be fey while also still being elves and goblins. That sort of thing.
I generally only give "giant" to creatures from Jotunheim, regardless of where they are living now. But again, it all depends on your definitions. ;)
Wow. I never even considered this.
This will be stolen for my next game. Thank you sir.
Changing or banning certain spells to make certain things more challenging is fine in my book. The ease with which the game system can be modified is one of the reasons why I play d20 and not some other game. However, the players should have a way to know beforehand.
You're not punishing the players by saying "look, I have an idea of a horror game for a few sessions. Would it be okay if you guys stayed away from the most flashy spells, they might ruin the athmosphere. Oh, and a lot is focused on fear, so I'm changing the paladins immunity to fear into a +4 bonus - he'll still be brave, just not completely immune". However, if you don't say anything, start the session, and the first thing that happens is this:
"Wizard - I cast Fireball at the ghouls.
DM - It fails. The ghouls aproach you. Wizard, paladin and ranger - roll saves vs. fear." Then that's unfair.
In the same way, preventing create water in a desert (whether an individual desert or through a whole campaign) is fair as long as the players have a way of knowing it. And for the situation with climbing the mountain, there are fair ways to ban spider climb. Say that they are there to stop the Cult of Evil Evilness in their plan to summon a powerful devil - then maybe they have to do the ritual at the Night of the Dying Boar, a rare astrological happening. This very night, all arcane magic will be extremely dangerous to perform, and thus, the players will probably have to climb by their own. Key is letting them know or dropping hints so they at least know that they should know, so to speak.
(And if you're a wizard of higher than 2nd level, you should usually have a fair understanding of mystical things such as astrology)
I assume there was some sort of unofficial poll to come to this conclusion.
Let's say we've got a desert. We don't want every cleric and druid to become a walking oasis able to produce endless quantities of potable water via endless cantrips. It ruins suspension of disbelief for our medium-magic desert region
I'm going on the base assumption that both players and the DM are willing to suspend disbelief but aren't willing to have it hung by the neck until dead.
and moreover keeps it from being a challenge when the characters do run low on water.*Face palm*
I am quite convinced you haven't read one word of any argument I have put forward. My point - my repeated point - is that that is not a challenge because the cantrip automatically solves the problem. You are making a perfect example of some one refusing to accept the change in the metagame or, at least, refusing to accept that spells solve a very basic problem when creating the problem to be solved. PCs getting water in a desert is not a challenge because of the Create Water spell itself. That is undoubtedly one of the main reasons the spell even exists. Your challenge wasn't a challenge before you even decided to think it up.
Indeed, cantrips solve a great many problems. But if I want to have a believable world, I either have to have a society where people are taking every advantage of them, or else I have a world where people are not taking advantage of them, and it's my job as DM to come up with an explanation for why they're not doing this otherwise obvious and sensible thing apart from them being deeply stupid -- either as a result of living in a particular literary genre where people are innately stupid * -- or because the DM is using the orbital mind control lasers and has made everyone in the universe except the PCs be oblivious to this obvious clever idea.
Having the PC be the first person to hit upon this clever idea? That's fine. That's "The History of Whittington." Here's the nutshell of that story for those who don't know it: Dick Whittington was a cabin boy on a ship. Dick Whittington had a pet cat. He visited a rich isle that had unbelievable wealth but also such a bad plague of rats that people had to sleep in coffins with holes drilled in them so the rats wouldn't come and eat their toes while they slept. Dick declined to sleep in a coffin but had his cat stand guard. The next morning, he was fine but the same could not be said of the toe-eating rats. The Sultan was overjoyed to see that and gave Dick huge piles of loot in exchange for his cat and Whittington sailed off to become the Mayor of London.
Fun story. Nice adventure. Only works once. The Isle Where People Sleep in Coffins to Keep the Rats from Eating their Toes is no more. It's now just an ordinary island with cats.
It's worse with a desert. Once a cleric moves in and starts irrigating, it's gone. Unless I make this raise the salinity in the water table, but that's another issue.
It also makes a whole lot of the desert folklore look stupid. If I have an evil djinn or fey or some sort of desert ghoul making a mirage of a beautiful oasis to lead travelers astray? To a party with a cleric or druid, it's about as enticing as the Hotel California when everyone in the car has just picked up Super Big Gulps from the local Qwicky Mart. Maybe they want to stop there for a swim or to sight-see or bash on the inevitable monster, but actual life-or-death cries of "Water...! Water...!" Not going to happen.
If I have to choose between the evil mirage djinn or endless Create Water cantrips as DM, my choice is pretty clear.
On the change in metagame: it really isn't even all that different since any Cleric or Druid could previously create 2 gallons of water with a single 0th level spells. And you would have 3 of them. Is there any doubt that a Cleric or Druid would not make sure to memorize this spell when knowing they are going to be traipsing around a desert? Not memorizing the spell that would help with the "challenge" should be penalized, not the solving of the "challenge" by using the spell designed to solve it and a subsequent Rule-0 for all spells to obfuscate your opposition to a simple spell solving a simple challenge in a game world where magic is commonplace for the PCs.
Memorizing 2 or 3 instances of a 0-level spell is the same as bringing a camel with a bunch of extra waterskins. The challenge the party begins when the cleric or druid is taken out of commission or the camel runs away.
Since the camel is probably not a PC, I think this is a better option as a DM.
* Footnote: I define the three level of literary stupidity as "Horror Movie stupid" which is less extreme than "Comic Book stupid" which is less extreme than "Opera stupid." About the only people more stupid than the people in operas are the ones in the various fairtales about "The Village of Simpletons" or "The Foolish Country" but generally these are better read about than roleplayed in.
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In an internally consistent world deserts do not exist. If they did, the GM would be denying the same tactical and survival options to the NPCs that he provides the PCs. The PCs could otherwise assume the NPCs are a bunch of mismanaged dullards.
If a desert did exist, it would be for unusual, likely magical, reasons. The players would thus have unconventional expectations when entering this desert. It's mere existence would be fair warning that magical mechanics have changed. No rug has been pulled.
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Or maybe it's just silly to expect a campaign's consistency to revolve around a handful of spells instead of the other way around.
I'm going on the base assumption that both players and the DM are willing to suspend disbelief but aren't willing to have it hung by the neck until dead.
Your base suspension of disbelief is based on "there is no irrigation in the desert based on magic in a magic society because no one can cast Create Water." Or I could just point to the "not every town has mages coming out of their ears" rules. I see nothing wrong or even illogical about desert metropolises existing being based on magic water sources.
Indeed, cantrips solve a great many problems. But if I want to have a believable world, I either have to have a society where people are taking every advantage of them, or else I have a world where people are not taking advantage of them, and it's my job as DM to come up with an explanation for why they're not doing this otherwise obvious and sensible thing apart from them being deeply stupid
Do you only run prewritten adventure? If not, you are just saying "I can't do anything, I've tied my own hands in the matter." Why exactly have you tied your own hands? You are asserting that, as a DM, you can't modify the world such that simple magic is used to solve simple tasks by everyone that can use magic and therefore you, as a DM, are going to say the PCs can't do it.
It also makes a whole lot of the desert folklore look stupid. If I have an evil djinn or fey or some sort of desert ghoul making a mirage of a beautiful oasis to lead travelers astray? To a party with a cleric or druid, it's about as enticing as the Hotel California when everyone in the car has just picked up Super Big Gulps from the local Qwicky Mart. Maybe they want to stop there for a swim or to sight-see or bash on the inevitable monster, but actual life-or-death cries of "Water...! Water...!" Not going to happen.
I fail to see why the adventurers should be punished because you can't think up more than one plausible adventure hook, that being the most obvious one that would occur in a non-magical world and where everyone is a bumbling moron and didn't prepare to travel into the giant desert.
In an internally consistent world deserts do not exist.
...what?
If they did, the GM would be denying the same tactical and survival options to the NPCs that he provides the PCs. The PCs could otherwise assume the NPCs are a bunch of mismanaged dullards.
I thought that was the plot of every adventure?
A few thoughts:
1. There is nothing internally inconsistent with a magical world in which both natural and unnatural deserts exists. In the first, create water would work just fine. In the second, it wouldn't work at all. Magic is by definition supernatural, and thus not subject to natural laws.
2. The gods decide who has access to their divine power and how it can be used. Just because a player can say, "I'm taking a level of Cleric," does not mean that each and every npc can do the same. If it were that easy there would be no commoners. Everyone would have a level of Cleric and be effectively immune to hunger and thirst.
3. A campaign world does not have to either one way or the other, i.e. either it obeys every natural law just like IRL -or- nothing makes any sense from one day to the next. At the heart of the "Great Desert" there can be the hard baked Land of the Suns where not one, but two suns rise in the morning. Just because this violates our modern sensibilities of how solar systems work does not make it an invalid construct for a magical reality.
4. Cartigan is both right and wrong. DM's should not arbitrarily invalidate magical solutions to common problems. Unlimited cantrips in particular change the parameters of the game and only lazy DMs refuse to adapt. That having been said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a DM invalidating those solutions occasionally in order to challenge a party.
5. A quick warning and note that "Hey guys I'm changing something." Can make all the difference between a group accepting alterations and "Hey you can't do that! The book says it works like this!" with lots of arguing.
*continuing on Freesword's point:
Often times you don't even have to say, "It doesn't work." or "It doesn't work this time."
You can simply make the challenge itself present the reason it doesn't work. Perhaps the area to be climbed is covered in grease that the players can easily see prevents the use of spider climb. Perhaps there is a low ceiling that prevents simple use of the jump spell to clear the distance (or obstacles in the way of a straight jump). It could be that while water breathing will get you in the tunnel the fact is that it isn't water but acid which means you don't want to swim in it (or the water is full of leeches just waiting for a meal ticket)... perhaps the water is polluted/poisoned/ or diseased.
However the answer of "I want a DC "x" skill check" should never be grounds for not letting a spell work. If they want to burn a limited resource for that day getting through a challenge then that should be a better choice for the GM than if they use their infinitely usable skills instead.
The way to make it [a desert setting where create water doesn't solve everything] palatable to your players is...
That sounds like nice idea, with an added warning from the DM beforehand and consulting the players if they feel cheated or not, ti should be alright.
5. A quick warning and note that "Hey guys I'm changing something." Can make all the difference between a group accepting alterations and "Hey you can't do that! The book says it works like this!" with lots of arguing.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the DM saying, "Even as the water forms in your outstretched hands, it is whisked away by the incredibly dry winds of the Land of Two Suns." No warning needed. Just as DMs have to adapt to changes in the rules, players have to adapt to exceptional circumstances. Surprises are what keep the game interesting.
The key word is "exceptional," as opposed to "arbitrary." When two suns rise in the morning over an incredibly barren land, that should be hint enough that things are different here. Hopefully, the players were smart enough to do some research on their destination so that they can have some warning. If they don't, then they just have to adapt their plans to meet the new situation. Again, the key is to make such situations the exception, not the rule.
Magic does not always work the way you think it's going to work. If it did, it wouldn't be magic, it would be physics. And even physics doesn't always work the way you think it's going to work.
The way to make it [a desert setting where create water doesn't solve everything] palatable to your players is...That sounds like nice idea, with an added warning from the DM beforehand and consulting the players if they feel cheated or not, ti should be alright.
Oh, you always give your players forewarning about stuff like that, especially if their characters have taken lots of ranks in stuff like Knowledge Arcana and thus would be aware of the places and times where magic works slightly different.
It's also not that unusual an idea. It's already part of the RAW that undead work differently on hallowed and unhallowed ground so having similar metaphysical variations happening in certain areas with other spells would hardly be surprising.
5. A quick warning and note that "Hey guys I'm changing something." Can make all the difference between a group accepting alterations and "Hey you can't do that! The book says it works like this!" with lots of arguing.I don't think there's anything wrong with the DM saying, "Even as the water forms in your outstretched hands, it is whisked away by the incredibly dry winds of the Land of Two Suns." No warning needed. Just as DMs have to adapt to changes in the rules, players have to adapt to exceptional circumstances. Surprises are what keep the game interesting.
My immediate response as a response to that, as a player, would be "Wtf? That's crap."
And what's more, it would then be IMPOSSIBLE to go there and survive because you wouldn't have any water from MUNDANE sources either, and you would die rather quickly as you dehydrate and are unable to sweat to cool yourself off.
Hmmmm......needs more POWER ATTACK!!!!
Seriously? When things don't go the way you think they will, you say "Wtf? That's crap"?
Yes, when things suddenly change for no particular reason at all without any warning, my response is not to go along with it without questioning.
LMAO
I take it yours is. Have fun with that
And the description there was of the water evaporating, so you COULD sweat, it would work just fine, and you COULD keep water in sealed containers.
Shall we teleport the water from the sealed container to our stomachs?
It's really a very silly obsticle, one covered in depth in Sandstorm, and a cantrip at that.
*face palm*
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Seriously? When things don't go the way you think they will, you say "Wtf? That's crap"?Yes, when things suddenly change for no particular reason at all without any warning, my response is not to go along with it without questioning.
LMAOI take it yours is. Have fun with that
And the description there was of the water evaporating, so you COULD sweat, it would work just fine, and you COULD keep water in sealed containers.Shall we teleport the water from the sealed container to our stomachs?
It's really a very silly obsticle, one covered in depth in Sandstorm, and a cantrip at that.*face palm*
Don't give in to the trolls, dude.
There there, let's not vitalstike ourselves with the tundra... or what was that thing again.
Some people can bear to have places in the world where magic works different (anti-magic zones, wild magic, faerzress, whatever), some people flee for another world via nearest portal. How do you explain anti-magic zones to your players Cartigan? Do they also count as DM fiat to screw with the players?
Places where magic works differently specifically by fiat for the specific, and sole, purpose of stopping certain spells from being useful is far from the same as an antimagic zone that effects all spells, SLAs, and supernatural powers identically.
5. A quick warning and note that "Hey guys I'm changing something." Can make all the difference between a group accepting alterations and "Hey you can't do that! The book says it works like this!" with lots of arguing.I don't think there's anything wrong with the DM saying, "Even as the water forms in your outstretched hands, it is whisked away by the incredibly dry winds of the Land of Two Suns." No warning needed. Just as DMs have to adapt to changes in the rules, players have to adapt to exceptional circumstances. Surprises are what keep the game interesting.
My immediate response as a response to that, as a player, would be "Wtf? That's crap."
And what's more, it would then be IMPOSSIBLE to go there and survive because you wouldn't have any water from MUNDANE sources either, and you would die rather quickly as you dehydrate and are unable to sweat to cool yourself off.
Agreed, i would totally Power attack that desert...
Like I said before, if the players had warning and could do something about it, then its cool, but getting out to the middle of a desert with minimal supplies then telling the players "Sorry, create water doesn't work, you all die of thirst", is not a good way to introduce an alternate mechanic.
In an internally consistent world deserts do not exist. If they did, the GM would be denying the same tactical and survival options to the NPCs that he provides the PCs. The PCs could otherwise assume the NPCs are a bunch of mismanaged dullards.
If a desert did exist, it would be for unusual, likely magical, reasons. The players would thus have unconventional expectations when entering this desert. It's mere existence would be fair warning that magical mechanics have changed. No rug has been pulled.
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Or maybe it's just silly to expect a campaign's consistency to revolve around a handful of spells instead of the other way around.
Or
Men of faith and magic are somewhat rare. Imagine that maybe 1 in 10 desert tribes has an adept. For every 10 faithful men of the church only one has the blessing of his gods to work miracles.
If you entire tribes survival in the desert was dependent on a single cleric, and they died from a scorpion attack, you would be pretty hosed.
Places where magic works differently specifically by fiat for the specific, and sole, purpose of stopping certain spells from being useful is far from the same as an antimagic zone that effects all spells, SLAs, and supernatural powers identically.
And what about a desert with effects tackling with all spells and abilities with the water descriptor (something like suspended magic from planar books) that is easy to learn about, but not that easy to overcome?
5. A quick warning and note that "Hey guys I'm changing something." Can make all the difference between a group accepting alterations and "Hey you can't do that! The book says it works like this!" with lots of arguing.I don't think there's anything wrong with the DM saying, "Even as the water forms in your outstretched hands, it is whisked away by the incredibly dry winds of the Land of Two Suns." No warning needed. Just as DMs have to adapt to changes in the rules, players have to adapt to exceptional circumstances. Surprises are what keep the game interesting.
My immediate response as a response to that, as a player, would be "Wtf? That's crap."
And what's more, it would then be IMPOSSIBLE to go there and survive because you wouldn't have any water from MUNDANE sources either, and you would die rather quickly as you dehydrate and are unable to sweat to cool yourself off.Agreed, i would totally Power attack that desert...
Like I said before, if the players had warning and could do something about it, then its cool, but getting out to the middle of a desert with minimal supplies then telling the players "Sorry, create water doesn't work, you all die of thirst", is not a good way to introduce an alternate mechanic.
The Fremen are desert power.
...so are those giant worms.
*activates thumper*
Places where magic works differently specifically by fiat for the specific, and sole, purpose of stopping certain spells from being useful is far from the same as an antimagic zone that effects all spells, SLAs, and supernatural powers identically.And what about a desert with effects tackling with all spells nd abilities with the water descriptor (something like suspended magic from planar books) that is easy to laern about, but not that easy to overcome?
My previous remark on that scenario already answers this question.
One might recall that in the World of Greyhawk, there is an artifact structure called the Tovag Baruu or some such that was erected by the Baklunish and it's purpose is to maintain the curse they laid on the Sea of Dust... the former site of the Sueloise Empire. It's very easy to imagine such an artifact suppressing such spells to varying degrees...from total absolute suppression... to a spellcraft roll being required... or posession of a magical key.[
If magic is that common, it's not a far stretch to assume that many environments and phenomenon are in themselves magical...
One of the deserts in FR was created by magic fields that drained the life from everything in the area. The empire that created them is long dead a buried under the sands.
But then the entire world of FR is afflicted with pockets of wild magic, so having spells occasionally go crazy is a little more expected in that world.
The only right way to DM is to make arbitrary changes for petty reasons, particularly when doing so robs player's of the value of their choices. I think everyone can agree with that. Who among us hasn't decided that magic missile wouldn't work on drow because they're super sneaky and shouldn't be subject to automatic hits? Or banned cure spells halfway through a fight to increase the drama?
Keeping the players on their toes requires unpredictability, and the best way to achieve that is through rampant DM fiat. Accept no substitute!
My previous remark on that scenario already answers this question.Places where magic works differently specifically by fiat for the specific, and sole, purpose of stopping certain spells from being useful is far from the same as an antimagic zone that effects all spells, SLAs, and supernatural powers identically.And what about a desert with effects tackling with all spells nd abilities with the water descriptor (something like suspended magic from planar books) that is easy to laern about, but not that easy to overcome?
Well, okay, so if I create a world with a few normal deserts and one particular that used to be flowering empire until it ran afoul of blue dragon clan that used it's powers over desert magics to turn the area to the said magical desert where all water magically evaporates at unatural rate and no water magic can work unless bloody DCs are rolled and even then the effects are lessened, which is a well known fact in the world. The group decides to go there to pillage the ruins they hear rumors about and I tell them that their create water spell doesn't work (quite surprisingly), then I'm doing it all wrong and I'm deliberately harming the players and the game in general?
I'm not saying that it should happen in the middle of the compaign or that the effect miraculously appears in the whole world if the players are using something for their advantage (not that certain effects like this didn't appear in 3.5 material, just take a look on Elder Evils and the signs of the catastrophe there. Undead moon gradually shut healing spells off and started to reanimate dead for example).
The only right way to DM is to make arbitrary changes for petty reasons, particularly when doing so robs player's of the value of their choices. I think everyone can agree with that. Who among us hasn't decided that magic missile wouldn't work on drow because they're super sneaky and shouldn't be subject to automatic hits? Or banned cure spells halfway through a fight to increase the drama?
Keeping the players on their toes requires unpredictability, and the best way to achieve that is through rampant DM fiat. Accept no substitute!
Well, you're just a meany-meanhead, unfair tyrant! So there!
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Well, you're just a meany-meanhead, unfair tyrant! So there!The only right way to DM is to make arbitrary changes for petty reasons, particularly when doing so robs player's of the value of their choices. I think everyone can agree with that. Who among us hasn't decided that magic missile wouldn't work on drow because they're super sneaky and shouldn't be subject to automatic hits? Or banned cure spells halfway through a fight to increase the drama?
Keeping the players on their toes requires unpredictability, and the best way to achieve that is through rampant DM fiat. Accept no substitute!
We've found a witch, may we burn her?
We've found a witch, may we burn her?Well, you're just a meany-meanhead, unfair tyrant! So there!The only right way to DM is to make arbitrary changes for petty reasons, particularly when doing so robs player's of the value of their choices. I think everyone can agree with that. Who among us hasn't decided that magic missile wouldn't work on drow because they're super sneaky and shouldn't be subject to automatic hits? Or banned cure spells halfway through a fight to increase the drama?
Keeping the players on their toes requires unpredictability, and the best way to achieve that is through rampant DM fiat. Accept no substitute!
Is she made of wood?