I've been interested in PF for a while now, but haven't fully switched over, mainly because I was still satisfied with 3.5 and with my set of house rules. Now with the new Kingmaker modules, I'm really considering switching over wholesale.
However, one of my biggest beefs with 3.5 was the reliance of the "Big 6." I hated how other more interesting items were set aside because an Amulet of Natural Armor was more important for the "Game Math." I reduced down to Big 2 in my games (weapon and armor/shield) with the other bonuses spread through actual level advancement to encourage more exotic magic item use.
While reading the conversion guide today I noticed this particular entry: "...Not every PC should have a ring of protection, cloak of resistance, and belt of giant strength. The game does not assume that every PC has such items, so there is no reason to make them as common as they were in 3.5."
This is great news for me and I'm curious how much of this is true. I realize that the ability boosters are now Belts or Headbands, so I know the Big 6 is still present in some form, but how much is it reduced?
I've been interested in PF for a while now, but haven't fully switched over, mainly because I was still satisfied with 3.5 and with my set of house rules. Now with the new Kingmaker modules, I'm really considering switching over wholesale.
However, one of my biggest beefs with 3.5 was the reliance of the "Big 6." I hated how other more interesting items were set aside because an Amulet of Natural Armor was more important for the "Game Math." I reduced down to Big 2 in my games (weapon and armor/shield) with the other bonuses spread through actual level advancement to encourage more exotic magic item use.
While reading the conversion guide today I noticed this particular entry: "...Not every PC should have a ring of protection, cloak of resistance, and belt of giant strength. The game does not assume that every PC has such items, so there is no reason to make them as common as they were in 3.5."
This is great news for me and I'm curious how much of this is true. I realize that the ability boosters are now Belts or Headbands, so I know the Big 6 is still present in some form, but how much is it reduced?
I haven't seen my players go for them any less than in 3.5, really. However, the rules for putting multiple stat boosts into the belt and headband slots are much more favourable than in 3.5, so this leaves a lot of slots for fun utility items.
To be completely honest, the conversion guide is wrong. It is a promotional document, after all.
You could say that pathfinder is better balanced against the absence of the big 6, but CR balance was never the problem. The problem is that these combinations exist. They still exist, so players will still try and achieve them.
Mr. Bulmahn would have had to change the items or the stacking rules considerably to solve this problem at the source, and that would have wrecked a lot of old statblocks. They chose to go the route of making magic items in general implicitly less accessible to PCs (changing body slots, d% rolls for item purchase), but not enough to deter this equipment from being desirable.
If your players are going to seek out optimal combinations, you're going to need the same kind of controls that you had before. As one hater of the AoNA to another, I feel your pain, but GM controls are the only effective solution.
In my own game, I simply disallow the AoNA, and players are allowed to gain an item that grants a natural AC bonus only if they explain it thematically. A cavebear cloak, leather armor that grants the wearer scales and camouflage, barkskin effects, etc.
Making natural armor bonus items change the wearer's appearance can be a deterrent in its own right. It stands to reason that your body must physically change in order to be "naturally" defensive.
To be completely honest, the conversion guide is wrong. It is a promotional document, after all.
You could say that pathfinder is better balanced against the absence of the big 6, but CR balance was never the problem. The problem is that these combinations exist. They still exist, so players will still try and achieve them.
Mr. Bulmahn would have had to change the items or the stacking rules considerably to solve this problem at the source, and that would have wrecked a lot of old statblocks. They chose to go the route of making magic items in general implicitly less accessible to PCs (changing body slots, d% rolls for item purchase), but not enough to deter this equipment from being desirable.
If your players are going to seek out optimal combinations, you're going to need the same kind of controls that you used to use. As one hater of the AoNA to another, I feel your pain, but GM controls are the only effective solution.
One other thing to pay attention to in that vein is the crafting system. The DC to craft magic items is absurdly easy to quickly get it to a 100% success chance for the Big 6 items. At that point, since there's no longer an XP cost or any other opportunity cost, they can sell your spiffy flavour items you hand out as loot for half and then craft Big 6 items for half, essentially losing no money in the bargain.
For my games, I have houserules that make crafting most things usually have a 25% chance of failure (which still gives you an edge over purchasing on the open market, but at least there's a cost now to selling and then crafting off the proceeds).
Creative Director
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The simple answer is: it's as reduced as much as you want it to be reduced.
The game doesn't force characters to rely upon the so-called big 6, but a lot of players enjoy having those elements as part of their characters. If you want to limit their appearance in your game, it's a simple matter of just not including certain of those items in the game.
But we didn't want to force that choice on everyone.
The main way in which the game's big 6 items changed was that the ability score boosting items now only take up 2 slots, which means that things like gloves and cloaks and amulets and so on "free up" for different items. It also makes stacking up multiple ability score bonuses a LOT tougher, since it's more expensive in PFRPG to get bonuses to all six ability scores.
But the game still has rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, magic weapons, magic armor and shields, and cloaks of resistance. Those items are popular, and removing them entirely from the game would have hurt the game. And we still give NPCs those items relatively regularly... but we DO try in our adventure products to also give NPCs unusual items now and then.
In the end, though, the reliance on items that boost stats, damage, AC, saves, and other key player elements are still in the game. If you want to downplay their presence as the GM, you should let your players know from the start.
That said... it's important to remember that everyone likes different things. A lot of players DO like having the big 6, and to them, stranger or more exotic items are simply not as compelling or interesting. It can be a tough thing to separate, as a GM, what's fun in the game for you and what's fun in the game for the players.
The basic rules for how one buys magic items, by the way, are a lot more restrictive than in 3.5, so if you as the GM give out more exotic items, even if the PCs cash them in you have a lot more latitude in what you allow them to buy with their cashed-in items. In that way, maintaining exotic items is a responsibility of the GM, not the game rules.
In any game where your have players that have heard of and know the phrase "Big 6" you will see some optimization on their characters. Just like if you have people who know what RAW and RAI stand for they will be more aware of the quirks of the rules.
And PFRPG will not ever be able to eliminate or reduce people finding the "best" magic item for their character in their slot when they enjoy optimization. That being said PF has done a nice job of combining some of the stat enhancers to two slots so it does free up some other slots for unique items.
They have also written into the rules some limitations on purchasing magic items in towns based upon size and a random limit on what you can get when. So unless the characters take the item creation feats it will be hard for the entire party to get exactly everything they want to get of the "big 6"
Most of the modules are not written with a 100% optimized party in mind. A more organic party can handle the adventures. When a DM is running a session for a larger party... or one that is "twinked" with all the best gear they may have to either add a couple more monsters or apply an advanced or giant template to compensate.
Yeah the fact that I can potentially boost all my ability scores with only two slots makes a huge difference. Stack that with the fact that there are now more magic item slots (hat and headband are now two distinctly separate slots for example) and it does a lot to improve one's ability to use exotic magic items without hurting their character.
EDIT: Here's a list of the Pathfinder slots...
Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
...versus the v3.5 list...
Arms/Wrists: pair of bracers or bracelets.
Belts: belt.
Body: robe or suit of armor.
Eyes: eye lenses, goggles.
Feet: One pair of boots or shoes.
Hands: One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets.
Head: headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery.
Neck: amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab.
Ring: One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand).
Shoulders: cloak, cape, or mantle.
Torso: vest, vestment, or shirt.
...which means there are now several more slots with which to work with.
Wow, thanks for the quick replies everyone. I looks like it does appear to be reduced. The fact that ability boosters now taking up 2 slots is a nice elegant solution.
Now, Ravingdork, you make a very good and important point. I never knew that PF added more magic item slots. As I said before, the Big 6 took a monopoly on many magic items slots, making for boring gear. But with the increased item slots, ability boosters now only effecting two of those, I'm a lot less worried than I initially was and very pleased about this.
I think I'll put my Big 2 house rule on hold and try out PF core and see how it goes. Well, either way, consider me pathfinderized!
edit: clarification and spelling.
As a flavor note:
I run Rise of the Runelords, and several "Amulets of Natural Armor" have appeared on the statblocks there. I'm sometimes too lazy to change them into something more interesting.
As a compromise, I have made them all into "Dragonscale Amulets" because "Amulet of Natural Armor" is a silly name that no one would ever use in-character. Furthermore, the Dragonscale amulet is an activated power (free action) that literally turns the wearer's skin into dragon scales. Red and White Dragonscale amulets confer 2 points of elemental resistance against that dragon's elemental type, but attacks that deal elemental damage for that dragon's vulnerability deal an additional 2 points of damage to you.
Just a little more flavor for what I find to be a tacky and stupidly-named item.
As a flavor note:
I run Rise of the Runelords, and several "Amulets of Natural Armor" have appeared on the statblocks there. I'm sometimes too lazy to change them into something more interesting.
As a compromise, I have made them all into "Dragonscale Amulets" because "Amulet of Natural Armor" is a silly name that no one would ever use in-character. Furthermore, the Dragonscale amulet is an activated power (free action) that literally turns the wearer's skin into dragon scales. Red and White Dragonscale amulets confer 2 points of elemental resistance against that dragon's elemental type, but attacks that deal elemental damage for that dragon's vulnerability deal an additional 2 points of damage to you.
Just a little more flavor for what I find to be a tacky and stupidly-named item.
An interesting idea, but the moment you start giving in-game benefits other than those detailed under amulets of natural armor, then it ceases to be a FLAVOR change and is now a MECHANICAL change.
An interesting idea, but the moment you start giving in-game benefits other than those detailed under amulets of natural armor, then it ceases to be a FLAVOR change and is now a MECHANICAL change.
You're quite correct. That's a 20% chance (red and white only) of an additional power on the item, plus a drawback. For the other 80%, though, no change!
The addition of rolling to see what color it is does make the game a little more fun, though. And more fun = good.
And more fun = good.
No disagreements there! :D
Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what the "big 6" actually are?
Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what the "big 6" actually are?
Ability increasing item
Amulet of Natural ArmorArmor/Bracers of Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Ring of Protection
Weapon
Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what the "big 6" actually are?
LOL .. I was about to ask the same thing, thinking "... maybe they're talking about the 6 ability scores ???"
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Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what the "big 6" actually are?Ability increasing item
Amulet of Natural Armor
Armor/Bracers of Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Ring of Protection
Weapon
Off-topic a bit, but a recurring joke among my players is that they collected so many +1 rings of protection from defeated NPCs that they were planning to construct a chainmail shirt out of them.
If you are looking for house rules on how remove or reduce the importance of the 'big six' in order to make treasure more exotic and interesting there was a long discussion about it: here
My favorite system suggested there, 'heroic distinctions' comes a ways into the thread.
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Let's look at it like this: if you as a GM drop a cloak of displacement, and you think the party will just sell it because they've all got cloaks of resistance, you could give it an additional resistance bonus on top of the displacement effect, to make their choice more difficult. "Hmmm, +1 all saves plus displacement, or +3 all saves?"
Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what the "big 6" actually are?
There is a link in the OP portion at the top to a full article about the subject with some good info from back in the 3.5 days.
The most reliable way to make the Big 6 not be such an issues is to make it impossible to reliably pursue getting the Big 6 as a strategy. Toss out the ability to make magic items or make it a lot harder than just getting the right feat, spending some down time, and spending the cash. Don't allow most to be purchased without that being an adventure in and of itself. Only give the items out judiciously as treasure found adventuring or as rewards for their missions.
As long as PCs can get these items that are virtually always reliable and dovetail together so well to bolster the character, they'll want them. They'll sell more interesting but less constantly useful items to get them. Pursuing the Big 6 is a very strong strategy.
That said, I'm thinking of charting a course between the two extremes for the game I've started. I think I'll make +1 versions of these items pretty common, even available among the common people, but also worth very little money. Any bonus above a +1 and I would jack the price significantly.
Another alternative is to follow a variation delabarre's suggestion. ALL magic cloaks provide some resistance protection as a necessary add-on component - kind of like all special magic weapon properties require a +1 be put on the weapon first. I'd raise the price accordingly, of course.
The most reliable way to make the Big 6 not be such an issues is to make it impossible to reliably pursue getting the Big 6 as a strategy. Toss out the ability to make magic items or make it a lot harder than just getting the right feat, spending some down time, and spending the cash.
+1
There are no magic shops in my campaign. You cannot really purchase anything better than a +1 sword or +1 armor, and that typically is gotten through "official" channels.
Mix that together with a plotline with time pressure (where the characters don't have time to spend weeks and weeks crafting items), and suddenly you don't have parties that are Christmas trees of magic items.
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It's threads like this that make me glad of my group at times. Granted not so much other times. But anyways, no one in my group really goes out of their way to find stat bonus items. If they find them, great, but they don't go looking for them. Often they look for and want more unusual items that do interesting effects, even if they are not that useful most of the time.
It's threads like this that make me glad of my group at times. Granted not so much other times. But anyways, no one in my group really goes out of their way to find stat bonus items. If they find them, great, but they don't go looking for them. Often they look for and want more unusual items that do interesting effects, even if they are not that useful most of the time.
The key is to actually have useful and interesting items. Or at least items that make the players laugh. I've made great use of the super genius loot 4 less series to this regard. Despite its limited usefulness the now dubbed 'gustoppo door knocker' has been a real success in the party, when it is basically just a rod that gives you a bonus to knock down doors.
The problem for us wasn't ever that we didnt' *want* interesting items.
It was that, if you Didn't pick up that ring of deflection plus X and the cloak and all that, then you'd get splattered like peanut butter by the next critter that swung at you.
That is the real problem.. its not so much "do i want X or Y" its "if I take interesting Y over dull X, then I get killed.. therefore Y isn't nearly as interesting anymore"
You may find something "interesting" but as long as your AC or ability score or whatever takes the hammer to "interesting" then "interesting" is going to be vendor bait. or if no vendors, just somethign someone rolls up and uses as a pillow at night because they can't afford to wear it..
-S
Limit the availability of the big6 items past +1's.
A Phylactery of Positive Channelling, for example, will look far more attractive than a +2 headband when the PC's realize that the upgrades aren't sitting on the shelf of the Ye ol' magic shop
and the NPC's running the shop aren't sitting around with nothing better to do than serve the PC's wishes for upgrades
.
It's your game, set the magic availability wherever you want.
Bare in mind what Selgard says though, make sure the PC's can survive in your campaign without high level big6 items.
I've been interested in PF for a while now, but haven't fully switched over, mainly because I was still satisfied with 3.5 and with my set of house rules. Now with the new Kingmaker modules, I'm really considering switching over wholesale.
However, one of my biggest beefs with 3.5 was the reliance of the "Big 6."
Probably the easiest solution to this problem is to make 'stacked' items more common (i.e. cheaper to make). Why aren't there more Rings of Protection +2 AND Feather Falling? Cloak of Resistance +2 and Minor Displacement?
The rules make these things cost (Biggest) + (Smaller x 1.5). Remove the (x1.5) from the equation and you can have items that are interesting AND mechanically useful.
Of course, this doesn't prevent super-magic-item draped characters (in fact, it makes it worse), but PROVIDED the GM keeps things under control, you can have players with items that are both flavorful and reasonably optimized. It also seems more realistic to me that you'd stack effects on items where possible, to keep down on the junk you have to lug around. Most players probably look like a horrible hodge-podge of mismatched magic items (and don't get me started on the items that have to be worn 24/7 that aren't rings). Red-and-gold cloak to go with your Blue Dragonhide Armor and your Mithril Shield? Bleargh!
Without the cost multiplier in place, nobody would make magic cloaks without at least some Resistance thrown in to boot. This makes sense - if you're going to dump 50,000gp buying a Cloak of Major Displacement, why wouldn't you spend a little extra to get +1, +2 or +3 Resistance Bonus on top of it? Note even with the x1.5, getting the +1 or +2 still makes very good sense. RAW, a Cloak of Major Displacement and Resistance +2 costs 56,000gp. The same thing goes for Rings - adding a small amount of Protection, Feather Falling and Sustenance to, say, a Ring of Regeneration is pretty much a no-brainer.
So I think that stacked items should be fairly common even in RAW games - they make good sense. Yeah, straight up Rings of Protection +1 would be fairly common as loot - their cost economy can't be beat. But once you get past the bargain basement items, you should (IMO) be finding items that do something AND have those favorable enchantments to boot.
I like the idea of removing the x1.5 from the equation. I might rule it to only work for Big 6 bonuses, just so things don't get too out of hand. I was also thinking of making a custom spell that transfers these Big 6 bonuses from 1 item to the next. Not sure how to balance that just yet, but it should allow player's to combine that +1 ring of protection with their new ring of the ram, for example. They would get the best of both world's so-to-speak.
I might make a more powerful higher level version that can upgrade a +1 bonus to a +2 and +2 to a +3 so on (if you get enough +1's to equal in value to a single +2, they all get combined into a single item now acting as a +2). This could solve the infamous +1 longswords. Eventually they can stock pile the swords and combine those enhancement bonuses to upgrade their weapons.
Some food for thought.
I might make a more powerful higher level version that can upgrade a +1 bonus to a +2 and +2 to a +3 so on (if you get enough +1's to equal in value to a single +2, they all get combined into a single item now acting as a +2). This could solve the infamous +1 longswords. Eventually they can stock pile the swords and combine those enhancement bonuses to upgrade their weapons.
A better solution might be to allow magic items to be recycled for their inherent magical energy - which is then applied to new or improved magic items. I've thought about this for a while, so as to remove gp's from the magic item equation. Difficult to do, as people will always want to trade gold for 'magic powder' or whatever, BUT, you can lower gold rewards and raise 'magic powder' rewards to taste.
Just killed an Owlbear? Harvest X units of 'magic powder' from it (certainly gives a reason to hunt magical monsters). Use powder to make magic potions or scrolls. Rinse and repeat. This sort of thing can make the Pathfinder economy make more sense, as there's less free gold around, and you don't buy magic items with gold, but drag a big pile or magical residue to the local artificer and have him make a magical item from it.
This also means that PCs, who level quickly and thus must upgrade equipment frequently, cannibalize magic items they find as they rapidly ascend to power, chewing up +1 swords and the like, reducing the incidence of low-end magic items in the world.
Implementation is sure to be tricky, but it seems to work fairly well in Ars Magica.
Interestingly enough, this was already done in the Magic Item Compendium (making the Big Six not count as being on an item when it came to combining items) so there is precedent.
I never knew that and I had the book since it was released. Although, I did remove such items from my games before then, so I never did more than a passing glance.
The easiest solution to this problem is one I use frequently in my games.
Rather than just handing out random items, I take a look at the gear my party has, and when the time is right, I upgrade said item.
"As you withdraw your sword from the red-dragon's husk you can see a ruby forming in the center of the crossguard, and if you were to look closely, you could see flames dancing in the gem's surface. Congratulations, your sword has gained the flaming property" or something along those lines.
I do this kind of stuff all the time in my games, and it really adds to the experience. The game becomes less about 'killing creatures and taking their stuff' and it becomes about some kind of plot-centric focus (such as being heroes, or redeeming your reputation, or avenging your father by killing the damned heroes that killed him because they didn't like how he ruled or whatever) instead, with a character's gear growing alongside them.
I like the idea, more elegant and organic than Weapon of Legacy. Sadly, I'm sure my players wouldn't like it as much. They love to control every aspect of their character.
-snipped for space- Magic Powder.
This would probably something my players would love. Although one might say "How much arcane dust do I get for disenchanting that green." :P. As you said, compared to gold, magic dust does make more sense on an economical level.
hmm... I will mull over my options now...
hmm... I will mull over my options now...
Just to throw one more option into the mix...
Have you considered one of the many homebrew systems for eliminating the "Big Six"?
There are a bunch of systems for doing so. I humbly offer a link to mine.
There are other systems besides mine linked to in the thread. Your players may be willing to go for this because it gives them much more control over what bonuses they get.
hmm... I will mull over my options now...Just to throw one more option into the mix...
Have you considered one of the many homebrew systems for eliminating the "Big Six"?
There are a bunch of systems for doing so. I humbly offer a link to mine.
There are other systems besides mine linked to in the thread. Your players may be willing to go for this because it gives them much more control over what bonuses they get.
I have a house rule that removes the bonuses from items (except from weapon and armor/shield) and moved those into level advancement. But I'm going to try PF Core for a while and see if the Big 6 problem is the same. With more magic item slots and ability boosters taking up 2 at the most, I'm guessing it shouldn't be as prevalent as it was for 3.5. I'll look into the thread you linked, however. There is always room for improvement. Thanks. :)
Combo items is a great idea and I'll be using that from now on.
However, why the hate for the big 6? Those items are subtle and don't overwhelm or define a character. A cloak of the bat is cool and all, but now that character is bat guy, but a cloak of resistance of equivilant price will grant a hefty save bonus which will come in handy more often.
It's the best choice tactically. Get your numbers to be high enough so you don't die instantly or have weird items that give a fighter type some degree of spellcasting. It's a little obnoxious don't you think? I'm not saying don't hand ou the weird stuff, but bare in mind that the big 6 are a very imporant part of the game.
So let's hear it for combo items! I think those will make everyone happy.
However, why the hate for the big 6? Those items are subtle and don't overwhelm or define a character. A cloak of the bat is cool and all, but now that character is bat guy, but a cloak of resistance of equivilant price will grant a hefty save bonus which will come in handy more often.
It's not that anyone hates the Big 6. Many just dislike feeling as though they have no choice but to put all their wealth into buying them, or fall behind the power curve.
In my experience as a GM, players will usually sell all items, even if they have really cool effects and a clear purpose in the campaign, if it will let them add a plus to their sword or buy a Strength belt.
People are always looking for ways to replace or work around the Big 6, because the system assumes the players have the plusses from these items. Like you said, without them, you are much less effective. However, if you have to have them, why not make it part of the level up process?
However, why the hate for the big 6? Those items are subtle and don't overwhelm or define a character. A cloak of the bat is cool and all, but now that character is bat guy, but a cloak of resistance of equivilant price will grant a hefty save bonus which will come in handy more often.It's not that anyone hates the Big 6. Many just dislike feeling as though they have no choice but to put all their wealth into buying them, or fall behind the power curve.
In my experience as a GM, players will usually sell all items, even if they have really cool effects and a clear purpose in the campaign, if it will let them add a plus to their sword or buy a Strength belt.
People are always looking for ways to replace or work around the Big 6, because the system assumes the players have the plusses from these items. Like you said, without them, you are much less effective. However, if you have to have them, why not make it part of the level up process?
It's been my experience as DM, that this is really more of a perception problem than a reality one. The system doesn't really assume that all of these bonuses come into play at particular times. PCs who don't max them out whenever they can don't fall behind the power curve. What they'll do is fall behind in getting ahead of the power curve. Some players will perceive that as falling behind, when really they're ahead of your average Joe PC.
What the system does is reward investment in the Big 6 more often than investment in oddball multi-function magic items like Rings of Shooting Stars. Whether it's getting ahead of the power curve or not falling behind in the player's mind, these consistent bonus items simply deliver benefits over not having them. The game challenges are easier with them than without them no matter where you are on the power curve.
It's been my experience as DM, that this is really more of a perception problem than a reality one. The system doesn't really assume that all of these bonuses come into play at particular times. PCs who don't max them out whenever they can don't fall behind the power curve. What they'll do is fall behind in getting ahead of the power curve. Some players will perceive that as falling behind, when really they're ahead of your average Joe PC.
What the system does is reward investment in the Big 6 more often than investment in oddball multi-function magic items like Rings of Shooting Stars. Whether it's getting ahead of the power curve or not falling behind in the player's mind, these consistent bonus items simply deliver benefits over not having them. The game challenges are easier with them than without them no matter where you are on the power curve.
Oh, I absolutely agree. It just tends to be a vicious cycle...or a self-fulfilling prophecy...or both.
The players *perceive* that they need to maximize their Big 6 bonuses, then do so. The DM makes the monsters more powerful to compensate and adequately challenge the group. Players become increasingly convinced that that Big 6 items are mandatory.
The players could easily take the opposite route and refuse to buy Big 6 items and the DM would just scale back encounters a little, then suddenly everyone just has the fun stuff.
Oh, I absolutely agree. It just tends to be a vicious cycle...or a self-fulfilling prophecy...or both.
The players *perceive* that they need to maximize their Big 6 bonuses, then do so. The DM makes the monsters more powerful to compensate and adequately challenge the group. Players become increasingly convinced that that Big 6 items are mandatory.
The players could easily take the opposite route and refuse to buy Big 6 items and the DM would just scale back encounters a little, then suddenly everyone just has the fun stuff.
That is presuming the DM IS going to scale back the encounters. There is no automatic assumption of that. Though I agree that an arms race with the DM is never a good idea, operating under the assumption the dm will scale back due to player choices is foolish at best. It all depends on the dm and the game.
One other thing I'll point out, is that it's really hard to get effects that are priced on par with 'the big 6'...
Agreed. It almost seems as though when they originally wrote 3.0 D&D, they assumed that the players and DMs would be tossing out Amulets of Natural Armor and Cloaks of resistance in favor of Fireball Necklaces and Cloaks of the Bat, so they had to price them down a little to make them enticing.
That is presuming the DM IS going to scale back the encounters. There is no automatic assumption of that. Though I agree that an arms race with the DM is never a good idea, operating under the assumption the dm will scale back due to player choices is foolish at best. It all depends on the dm and the game.
Agreed, I guess. Assuming a DM will scale up and assuming a DM will scale down are equally presumable. I'm assuming the DM is friends with his or her players.
Agreed, I guess. Assuming a DM will scale up and assuming a DM will scale down are equally presumable. I'm assuming the DM is friends with his or her players.
Being friends has little to nothing to do with it. In the end it is about willing and able. Neither has anything to do with personal relationships in the group. It has more to do with experience as a DM and the desired impact. I have one former dm in my group who embraces the dm vs party mentality. He used to get visibly upset when his monsters failed to kill us. He's most assuredly a friend, but I wouldnt trust him to scale encounters properly based on my desicion to well off that +3 cloak of resistance in favor of something a little more quirky and flavorful.
I think Pathfinder has improved the situation but not hugely. And of course there is a whole huge level of variability based on given GM and player tendencies that's very hard to account for.
I will say this, and I'm sure come up with a far more concise, coherent way of expressing this two days from now: I'm getting sick of, and yet constantly feel the need to use cloaks of resistance and stat booster items. The rest I can vary up more easily.
As a GM, when I create enemy core-race-with-class-level NPCs, sometimes I look at them pre-equipment and say, "My god, with these saves, the party's going to hand their asses to them in one round." (I WANT the party to be able to defeat them, mind, but I'd like them not to all disappear in one round. The point is to be able to challenge them.)
So on ye standard cloak of resistance goes, even if I thought it would be cooler or more flavorful for the character to have a cloak of the stars or what have you.
I don't ALWAYS do that, mind. Maybe I'll find another way to boost their saves, or tweak their build so the base saves/ability modifiers are better.
The situation is complex, and I'm not sure how to "fix" it, if indeed it needs fixing. Is it that my PC spellcasters have too many stat-boosting items of their own, pushing their spells' save DCs into the stratosphere? Since the PCs have item creation feats, is there a way I can fairly and sensibly ask them to stop making stat boosters when they have the in-game downtime to do so? (And then stop putting them on my NPCs as well.)
Would it be better to go back to oldskool Rings of Protection that provided a bonus to AC and Saves, but have few other items that did the same thing?
Are base saving throws at high level (PCs just hit level 18 in my game) too low? Should saves themselves somehow scale differently? How the heck to do that without breaking the game?
How many monsters are designed assuming characters have their stats and saves boosted?
Are base saving throws at high level (PCs just hit level 18 in my game) too low? Should saves themselves somehow scale differently? How the heck to do that without breaking the game?How many monsters are designed assuming characters have their stats and saves boosted?
Thats a good question. And worth looking at at least. Though I think in the end the answer is 'it depends'.
I like using level 10 as a baseline. So how about 2 CR 9 monsters as a presumed encoutner? Its a CR 11, a 'Challenging' encounter for 4 level 10 PC's. Looking at the CR 9 monsters, the ones that jump out at me as common are the greater elementals, young blue dragon, vampire and t-rex. I am choosing these because these are the ones I remember facing most recently, if you think its not a good cross section we can look at another.
Lets assume a 15 point buy human wizard is in a party facing these monsters shall we?
Str: 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 (+2 racial)18 Wis 10 Cha 8
Lets first look at it with no boosting items at all.
Presumably at 4 and 8 the wizard increased his int. Bringing it to 20 natural.
His spell DCs are:
level 5 - 20
level 4 - 19
level 3 - 18
level 2 - 17
level 1 - 16
His saves are
Fort +4 Ref +5 Will + 7
Lets look at some of the CR 9 monster's saves and abilities shall we?
Greater Air elemental:
Fort: +12, Ref +18, Will +6
wirlwind: DC 23
Young Blue Dragon:
Fort: +10 Ref +8 Will +8
Breath Weapon: DC 18
Greater Fire Elemental
Fort +12 Ref +16 will +6
Burn: DC 20
Vampire: Fort +13 Ref +11 Will +12
Dominate: DC 22
Energy Drain DC 22
Fireball DC 21
Web DC 20
(yes i am leaving out 1st level spells as I think given their tendancy to be BBEGs and not minions vampires generally are not forced down to their lower level spell slots for offense.)
T-Rex
Fort +15 Ref +12 Will +10
All these monsters have an average strong save of:
14.4
Moderate Save of
11.2
Weak save of
8.2
The average of their offensive abilities is 20.85
That unmodified wizard has a best DC of 20. For their average strong save these monsters need an average of 6 or better to get it. 9 or better to get it with their middle save and 12 or better with their weak save. That means on their best spell slots vs the monster's weakest saves the wizard still has a 45% chance of failure. Let alone against strong saves where they have a whoping, 75% chance of failure. And this is their limited top spell slots.
Now lets look at those offensive abilities from the monsters shall we?
The wizard needs to get a score of 21 or better (with an average dc of 20.85) to save against them.
For fort thats a roll of 17 or higher. For Ref that is 16 or higher on the die. For their best save, will, 14 or higher. Mr Big Six lacking wizard is in trouble here if you ask me.
Now you can up the point buy to 20, and things will edge a little bit in the wizards favor, but he probably still only has a 20 or 21 int (buying a straight 18 in pathfinder point buy is pretty crippling if you ask me). His saves might improve a little if he puts his points into wis, dex or con, but you are talking 1 or 2 here. He is still crazy outgunned by the monster abilities and their saves.
I think each of these monsters assume that Mr. Wizard has some stat improving and save boosting items.
Thanks Kolokotroni. That's a very interesting and useful analysis there.
It's been my experience as DM, that this is really more of a perception problem than a reality one. The system doesn't really assume that all of these bonuses come into play at particular times. PCs who don't max them out whenever they can don't fall behind the power curve. What they'll do is fall behind in getting ahead of the power curve. Some players will perceive that as falling behind, when really they're ahead of your average Joe PC.What the system does is reward investment in the Big 6 more often than investment in oddball multi-function magic items like Rings of Shooting Stars. Whether it's getting ahead of the power curve or not falling behind in the player's mind, these consistent bonus items simply deliver benefits over not having them. The game challenges are easier with them than without them no matter where you are on the power curve.
Untrue, the Truename in Tome of Magic was designed to only function if you have the Big 6 (well, Int bonus item, Truename amulet, skill focus, etc but same idea).
You have to do a skill check CR 15 + (2xCR) to use your abilities.A CR 10 = 35 check.
Without your gear, almost impossible.
WotC does expect the Big 6, they said it.
WotC does expect the Big 6, they said it.
Cite?
I know they said things about when they could expect a PC to be able to afford a magic weapon out of expected wealth and worked to keep magic-based DR under that level.But any other postitive that the Big 6 were all expected rather than expecting a general improvement from a smattering of the items? That I'd have to see to believe.