I am thinking that I may have missed a rule and I figured that perhaps someone could point me to what I missed.
I am/was playing a halfling bard/shadowdancer. During the final fight of our campaign my character was hit for 60 points of damage. My max HP being 58, I am dropped to negative in the single hit.
The wizard, seeing half the party dropped in one attack, hits the BBEG with a maximized fireball, targeted on my bleeding corpse to try and avoid the bleeding cleric.
Skipping to the meat, the fireball kills the BBEG, the cleric does not get hit by the fireball and lives, and, the kicker, I live.
I truly feel that at that point, I am toast. Pun not intended.
However, I cannot find a rule to back me up. I cannot find a rule stating that you do not get a reflex save while dying. Also, despite language to the contrary for rangers, monks, and rogues, shadowdancer's evasion does NOT state that it cannot be used while helpless.
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I am thinking that I may have missed a rule and I figured that perhaps someone could point me to what I missed.
I am/was playing a halfling bard/shadowdancer. During the final fight of our campaign my character was hit for 60 points of damage. My max HP being 58, I am dropped to negative in the single hit.
The wizard, seeing half the party dropped in one attack, hits the BBEG with a maximized fireball, targeted on my bleeding corpse to try and avoid the bleeding cleric.
Skipping to the meat, the fireball kills the BBEG, the cleric does not get hit by the fireball and lives, and, the kicker, I live.
I truly feel that at that point, I am toast. Pun not intended.
However, I cannot find a rule to back me up. I cannot find a rule stating that you do not get a reflex save while dying. Also, despite language to the contrary for rangers, monks, and rogues, shadowdancer's evasion does NOT state that it cannot be used while helpless.
Look under conditions: unconscious
EDIT: it will refer you to helpless and helpless should answer your question
from Pazio srd: "Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion."
Correct, but shadowdancer's evasion does not have that wording.
Unconsciousness -> Helpless
Helpless -> Treated as though one has a Dex of 0.
I still do not see anything that does anything other that give me a penalty to the roll.
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Correct, but shadowdancer's evasion does not have that wording.
Unconsciousness -> Helpless
Helpless -> Treated as though one has a Dex of 0.
I still do not see anything that does anything other that give me a penalty to the roll.
Pathfinder SRD states under rogue's evasion "Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion."
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Correct, but shadowdancer's evasion does not have that wording.
Unconsciousness -> Helpless
Helpless -> Treated as though one has a Dex of 0.
I still do not see anything that does anything other that give me a penalty to the roll.
My take on it (not sure if it is RAW). You are unconcious, ie.-you are an unmoving, unattended hunk o meat that just happens to be breathing and bleeding. IIRC fireballs, by RAW, deal full damage to unattended objects.
Downside: You're halfling BBQ.Upside: If the rest of the party are not halflings, it's not technically cannibalism and the cooking's already done for them!
I completely agree, unconscious characters should NOT be allowed to do this, but I cannot find it in the rules.
Pathfinder Core
Page 392
Evasion:
At 2nd level, a shadowdancer gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a Reflex saving through for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if the shadowdancer is wearing light armor or no armor.
It does NOT mention being helpless in the shadowdancer evasion.
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I completely agree, unconscious characters should NOT be allowed to do this, but I cannot find it in the rules.
Pathfinder Core
Page 392
Evasion:
At 2nd level, a shadowdancer gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a Reflex saving through for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if the shadowdancer is wearing light armor or no armor.It does NOT mention being helpless in the shadowdancer evasion.
Evasion is always the same no matter what class or PrC it comes from. The editors probably eliminated the need to keep repeating it to save space...
When DMing, I completely agree. The wizard argued his point to the DM that the shadowdancer ability could function as a minor "shadow jump" where the character literally isn't there for a moment. Thus being helpless wouldn't automatically prevent that.
I am hoping someone can direct me to where unconscious character cannot make reflex saves period.
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It does NOT mention being helpless in the shadowdancer evasion.
Forget about what's probably just an oversight from the author's and just think for a moment; how does a character who is unconscious, totally unaware of his surroundings, bleeding out on the floor and unable to move dodge a fireball? He slips on his blood pool out of the way? Come on, this whole topic is somewhat ridiculous...
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I completely agree, unconscious characters should NOT be allowed to do this, but I cannot find it in the rules.
Pathfinder Core
Page 392
Evasion:
At 2nd level, a shadowdancer gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a Reflex saving through for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if the shadowdancer is wearing light armor or no armor.It does NOT mention being helpless in the shadowdancer evasion.
see the part where it says "if exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a reflex saving throw"? being unconscious does not normally allow for a saving throw. therefore, you would not be allowed a saving throw from that fireball. you are in fact "toast".
When DMing, I completely agree. The wizard argued his point to the DM that the shadowdancer ability could function as a minor "shadow jump" where the character literally isn't there for a moment. Thus being helpless wouldn't automatically prevent that.
I am hoping someone can direct me to where unconscious character cannot make reflex saves period.
Got to be awake to use that ability and it would eat up 10 feet of movement and still wouldn't work unless he readied an action... which you can't do while unconscious.
Man...I hate rules lawyering.
Seconded, thirded, and fourthed.
The fact that the OP is still arguing makes me want to nerd rage.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:
•Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly.
So, you're helpless because you're unconscious. Helpless targets have a DEX of 0. With a DEX of 0 you are incapable of moving. You make reflex saves "by moving quickly". You can't move quickly because you are incapable of moving, ergo, you can't make reflex saves.
QED
On one hand you could argue that being unconcious just gives you a Dex of 0 and thus a -5 Dex mod. This would be a hefty penalty to your Reflex save.
I however would treat an unconcious body or corpse according to this section on damaging objects.
Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate.
So your magical gear would get saves vs. whatever explosions are going on, due to their being magic. Squishy person meat however is not.
Does that help?
Jimmy, that was exactly what I needed!
Woop!
I'd just like to throw a tiny suggestion on the table.
When you encounter situations like this, the best thing for a DM to do is say "I have to look into the rules, but for the sake of an argument, give me your roll". You roll your Reflex save (-5 penalty due to Dex 0), and let's face it, you probably fail.
If you fail, the debate is over and the game goes on.
If you succeed, the DM has reserved the right to adjudicate.
My point being that sometimes you can evade rules arguments by playing "let's see".
Unconscious creatures are Knocked Out and Helpless.
In the 3.5 Faq there was this
If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.
In the PRD it state helpless creatures have an effective Dex of 0. I would carry over the 3.5 ruling to Pathfinder Giving you a save with the penalty and without the benefit of Evasion.
Why would we carry over that rule though? There are two other rules that are in the system that cover what would happen and they both say you don't get a save. Which, let's be honest, makes sense.
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[rant]OK...this is just recockulous. How the hell is an unconscious character going to make a reflex save? They have no awareness of their surroundings and are unable to move. Period. This is what rules lawyering gets us...people making nonsensical arguments because "the rules don't say you can't do it, so that means I can!" Yes this is a game where people can shoot electricity and fire from their hands, summon monsters, and take multiple sword and arrow hits and keep walking, but use some common sense. If I come up behind you and hit you over the head, knocking you unconscious, then grab a flamethrower, are you going to be able to get out of the way of the stream of flame? NO!
Rules lawyers have their place...they can save the DM alot of time, but in cases like this they just ruin the play experience. [/rant]
From the PRD
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
It seems the savings throw is allowed, but with the -5 penalty.
Evasion not working, and not getting reflex save are not the same thing.
Except "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing"...From the PRD
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.It seems the savings throw is allowed, but with the -5 penalty.
Evasion not working, and not getting reflex save are not the same thing.
I need a link or a page number.
edit: a link for the pathfinder book.
Unattended "objects" get no saves.
And if that's not enough.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
I would also like to point out that saves are not mentioned once in the section about being Helpless. Having no Dexterity gives you a -5 modifier is pointed out for the purpose of of items like your AC. So a character with no armor unconscious on the ground has an AC of 5. Characters attacking that character also get a +4 bonus. So the only way to miss is with a natural 1.
Unattended "objects" get no saves.
And if that's not enough.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.I would also like to point out that saves are not mentioned once in the section about being Helpless. Having no Dexterity gives you a -5 modifier is pointed out for the purpose of of items like your AC. So a character with no armor unconscious on the ground has an AC of 5. Characters attacking that character also get a +4 bonus. So the only way to miss is with a natural 1.
That is only for spells with targets.
Note that aiming a spell is primary header. The other things below it are subheaders which may nor may not be appropriate depending on the spell. Fireball has no "Target" subheading in its description. Now if you want to try to apply the subheadings then would tell me would a touch attack apply to hold person.
Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
SpellAreas
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape.
A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads.
Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.
Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell's area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected.
Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead).
Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with “(S),” you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.
If the "automatically willing if helpless" applied to all spells it would have been put in a general area, such as the saving throw area, and not the targeted area since almost all spells have saves, but not all of them have targets in the sense that the header is used.
Putting it in the helpless description section also would have worked. Tying it to one specific area does not work though.
And also how is an unconscious body not an unattended object? The same rules for fireballing a tree (a living object with no sentience) should apply to someone who is unconscious (a living object with no sentience).
I just used the header of Aiming a Spell so it would be easy for you to find.
You may be right...
Still, explain to me, how does an unconscious person dodge a fireball?
Realistically I dont think it can happen, but I look it as the fact that fantasy is full of stories of people surviving impossible odds.
Fluff: You just happened to be in the right spot where the fireball did not touch you.I would definitely understand if a DM vetoed the rule in favor of something more realistic though.
And also how is an unconscious body not an unattended object? The same rules for fireballing a tree (a living object with no sentience) should apply to someone who is unconscious (a living object with no sentience).
I just used the header of Aiming a Spell so it would be easy for you to find.
You are not an object until you are dead(a corpse). The Aiming a Spell is the main header, and the other are indented under it on the site you went to and in the PRD. I don't think it makes sense honestly, but I think that is the intent or they would have put it under the helpless section instead of merely stating the -5 penalty to dex or they could have put it in the savings throw area. That way it would apply across the board.
If that was not the intent maybe they will errata it. Being unconscious does not make you nonsentient. I seriously doubt if there was a law against killing sentient beings that waiting until they went to sleep would keep you out of trouble.
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Paizo Pathfinder PHB+DMG page 214, third paragraph, first part of the last sentence is the important bit:
"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned)is not automatically willing."
Since you were unconscious, you were automatically considered willing to accept the full effect of the spell, which in turn means you get no save so evasion does not trigger.
Can't argue with the RAW;
Rules lawyers 1..
Everyone else 0...
MESS WITH THE BEST, DIE LIKE THE REST, ARF! ARF! ARF!
+1 for actually answering the OP's question!
Another +1 for quoting Hackers... which of course stacks with the first +1 :P
And also how is an unconscious body not an unattended object? The same rules for fireballing a tree (a living object with no sentience) should apply to someone who is unconscious (a living object with no sentience).
I just used the header of Aiming a Spell so it would be easy for you to find.
You are not an object until you are dead(a corpse). The Aiming a Spell is the main header, and the other are indented under it on the site you went to and in the PRD. I don't think it makes sense honestly, but I think that is the intent or they would have put it under the helpless section instead of merely stating the -5 penalty to dex or they could have put it in the savings throw area. That way it would apply across the board.
If that was not the intent maybe they will errata it. Being unconscious does not make you nonsentient. I seriously doubt if there was a law against killing sentient beings that waiting until they went to sleep would keep you out of trouble.
That's ridiculous. How is a corpse any different from an unconscious person. Are you suggesting the very act of breathing is enough to conveniently place you where the fireball doesn't burn? There's no difference between an inanimate unattended object and an unconscious person.
That's ridiculous. How is a corpse any different from an unconscious person. Are you suggesting the very act of breathing is enough to conveniently place you where the fireball doesn't burn? There's no difference between an inanimate unattended object and an unconscious person.And also how is an unconscious body not an unattended object? The same rules for fireballing a tree (a living object with no sentience) should apply to someone who is unconscious (a living object with no sentience).
I just used the header of Aiming a Spell so it would be easy for you to find.
You are not an object until you are dead(a corpse). The Aiming a Spell is the main header, and the other are indented under it on the site you went to and in the PRD. I don't think it makes sense honestly, but I think that is the intent or they would have put it under the helpless section instead of merely stating the -5 penalty to dex or they could have put it in the savings throw area. That way it would apply across the board.
If that was not the intent maybe they will errata it. Being unconscious does not make you nonsentient. I seriously doubt if there was a law against killing sentient beings that waiting until they went to sleep would keep you out of trouble.
Stop using common sense and just go by the rules. A corpse is an inanimate object. A person is not. As long as you are alive you are not an object. If you were an object you could be sundered. I am not here to argue common sense. I am telling what the rules say.
Maybe your breath pushed the fire away ;). There are a lot of rules that don't make sense. Evasion itself does not make sense. You have nothing to hide behind yet you dont take any damage. Going by common sense you should not get a reflex save if you are flat-footed. The flat-footed character is really no better off than the unconscious guy since neither of them should be moving out of the way.
Edit:
Pathfinder core book page 17
Every creature has a Wisdom score.
Every creature has a Charisma score.
That is all it takes to be a creature, and if you have a con score you are a living creature.
Also, going by common sense, you should only get a reflex save if you move to a safe place or if you find cover from the attack. If you're in an empty 20x20 room when a fireball goes off, you shouldn't get a reflex save and you shouldn't get evasion because no matter what you do, you cannot get out of the fire.
If you're in a giant field when a fireball goes off, you should have ot move your figure to a spot outside of the blast radius, thus representing that you "jumped out of the blast".
If you just stay there, you should take full damage.
That's common sense.
None of it is RAW.
By RAW, you can stand right where you are, at ground Zero, dead center of the blast, take the full brunt of the fireball, yet make reflex save anyway. And with Evasion, you can somehow stand there and magically evade the fire that is all around you, without even singeing a single hair on your head.
It just doesn't make sense. But that's the RAW.
Nevertheless, the rulebook defines what a reflex save is and how it's made (see my earlier post above). It also clearly states that you can't do these things when helpless. So, given that, it's quite clear that the rulebook says you cannot make a reflex save when you're unconscious.
Although, admittedly, it doesn't explicitly state that anywhere.
Also, going by common sense, you should only get a reflex save if you move to a safe place or if you find cover from the attack. If you're in an empty 20x20 room when a fireball goes off, you shouldn't get a reflex save and you shouldn't get evasion because no matter what you do, you cannot get out of the fire.
If you're in a giant field when a fireball goes off, you should have ot move your figure to a spot outside of the blast radius, thus representing that you "jumped out of the blast".
If you just stay there, you should take full damage.
That's common sense.
None of it is RAW.
By RAW, you can stand right where you are, at ground Zero, dead center of the blast, take the full brunt of the fireball, yet make reflex save anyway. And with Evasion, you can somehow stand there and magically evade the fire that is all around you, without even singeing a single hair on your head.
It just doesn't make sense. But that's the RAW.
Nevertheless, the rulebook defines what a reflex save is and how it's made (see my earlier post above). It also clearly states that you can't do these things when helpless. So, given that, it's quite clear that the rulebook says you cannot make a reflex save when you're unconscious.
Although, admittedly, it doesn't explicitly state that anywhere.
You can't make a reflex save, or any save for that matter, against "targeted attacks", but there are no reflex saves for targeted attacks anyway. I don't really care for the rule, but it does give the players a chance to survive if they are at -1 and a fireball comes their way.
I don't know if it's RAI to be honest, but it is RAW.A modifier of -5 is still a modifier.
I really can't believe there is a thread this long on this topic.
Cite Reference 1: Page 180, Corebook:
"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations..."
Cite Reference 1: Page 566, Corebook:
"Dying: ...a dying creature can take no actions."
Cite Reference 1: Page 568, Corebook:
"Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless..."
Cite Reference 1: Page 567, Corebook:
"Helpless: ...completely at an opponent's mercy..."
Therefore: If you are unconscious, you are at "completely" at your opponent's mercy".
Therefore: Since dodging would violate all 4 references, there is no chance to dodge.
Therefore: No save aloud, means Evasion can not be triggered.
Therefore: Dead character.
I don't care how crazy you want to get with the digging into the rules: Unconscious people cannot dodge.
-Windquake
It's not "crazy with the rules" it's flat out ignoring the rules.
The RULES:
"
He is unconscious he is therefore willing and automatically fails the save throw.
Right, but he's saying that only counts for spells which allow for targets. Rather then area spells or other kinds.
I really can't believe there is a thread this long on this topic.
Cite Reference 1: Page 180, Corebook:
"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations..."Cite Reference 1: Page 566, Corebook:
"Dying: ...a dying creature can take no actions."Cite Reference 1: Page 568, Corebook:
"Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless..."Cite Reference 1: Page 567, Corebook:
"Helpless: ...completely at an opponent's mercy..."Therefore: If you are unconscious, you are at "completely" at your opponent's mercy".
Therefore: Since dodging would violate all 4 references, there is no chance to dodge.
Therefore: No save aloud, means Evasion can not be triggered.
Therefore: Dead character.I don't care how crazy you want to get with the digging into the rules: Unconscious people cannot dodge.
-Windquake
How about you show some rules to support that. You are using logic. I can show you a good number of examples where logic breaks down. Making a save is not an action, by the way unless, it is called out as one.
Right, but he's saying that only counts for spells which allow for targets. Rather then area spells or other kinds.
Thanks Ferro.
It doesn't matter if it "targets" you it matters if it affects you. Are you affected by the fireball? Yes. Does it allow a save? Yes. Can you make the save while unconscious? No. You are a willing target.
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How about you show some rules to support that. You are using logic. I can show you a good number of examples where logic breaks down. Making a save is not an action, by the way unless, it is called out as one.
Man am I glad I don't have to play with you. This type of inane arguing over what is obviously against the RAW and RAI has ruined one too many of my games. Either you can't handle being wrong, or you just like to argue for the sake of arguing (or, IMO a bit of both). If you want to wrongly interpret it that way, go ahead, but any DM worth his salt would shut you down (or if you're the DM I certainly feel sorry for your players).
It doesn't matter if it "targets" you it matters if it affects you. Are you affected by the fireball? Yes. Does it allow a save? Yes. Can you make the save while unconscious? No. You are a willing target.
Target has a specific meaning in Pathfinder in regards to spells. Some spells, like fireball dont even have target. Targets is a subheading of aiming a spell because it is a way to choose how the opponent is chosen, just like rays, and area of effects are subheadings. You can't just take the rules for one method of aiming at an opponent and apply it to another.
If that rules was under saving throws are helpless I would agree, but since they put it in a specific subheading separate from the others it does now work by RAW. RAI may be a different story, but I have not here to debate intentions since I am in the rules subforum and not the general discussion one.
You can make the save with a -5 penalty.
How about you show some rules to support that. You are using logic. I can show you a good number of examples where logic breaks down. Making a save is not an action, by the way unless, it is called out as one.Man am I glad I don't have to play with you. This type of inane arguing over what is obviously against the RAW and RAI has ruined one too many of my games. Either you can't handle being wrong, or you just like to argue for the sake of arguing (or, IMO a bit of both). If you want to wrongly interpret it that way, go ahead, but any DM worth his salt would shut you down (or if you're the DM I certainly feel sorry for your players).
We are in the rules section. If you want to debate intent I might actually agree. The rules section only cover RAW not Intent. I am inclined to think they WotC did make an error and put it in the wrong area, but I said something along those lines in an earlier post. I do think as written you do get a reflex save.
PS: You dont need to feel sorry for my players you just need to read all my posts. If you read any other posts I have made in the past you will see I very rigid when I am in the rules forum. Interpretation, IMHO, is not what the rules section is for. You take your brain out and read it as it is written now matter how absurd it sounds. When it is time to play you use common sense and play the game.
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How about you show some rules to support that. You are using logic. I can show you a good number of examples where logic breaks down. Making a save is not an action, by the way unless, it is called out as one.Man am I glad I don't have to play with you. This type of inane arguing over what is obviously against the RAW and RAI has ruined one too many of my games. Either you can't handle being wrong, or you just like to argue for the sake of arguing (or, IMO a bit of both). If you want to wrongly interpret it that way, go ahead, but any DM worth his salt would shut you down (or if you're the DM I certainly feel sorry for your players).We are in the rules section. If you want to debate intent I might actually agree. The rules section only cover RAW not Intent. I am inclined to think they WotC did make an error and put it in the wrong area, but I said something along those lines in an earlier post. I do think as written you do get a reflex save.
PS: You dont need to feel sorry for my players you just need to read all my posts. If you read any other posts I have made in the past you will see I very rigid when I am in the rules forum. Interpretation, IMHO, is not what the rules section is for. You take your brain out and read it as it is written now matter how absurd it sounds. When it is time to play you use common sense and play the game.
The thing is that, while the RAW doesn't specifically state rules for this specific instance, the RAW doesn't specifically state rules for a lot of situations. In those instances, you must rely on different sections of the rules to make rulings. Windquake has done this. It is clear that if a character is unconscious, they are helpless, they are at the mercy of their opponent, they can be coup de grace'd...a non-moving piece of meat, an unattended object object, if you will. Unattended objects take full damage from a fireball. There is a limit to how much can be fit into one core rulebook and how many errata can be put out.