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Ok, the boon companion feat from Seeker of Secrets says:
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
My question on the feat is: A Druid Level 6 (no other classes) has an animal companion and takes this feat.
His level is 6
Does his animal companion now sit as if the Druid were level 10, ie He is level 6 and four levels higher is level 10, with the maxiumum bonus level he could be is 12 (ie 6 + 6). But because of the four level limit it is only 10.
So 1st level druid could have a 2nd level companion
2nd level druid could have a 4th level companion
3rd level druid could have a 6th level companion
4th level druid could have a 8th level companion
5th level druid could have a 9th level companion
6th level druid could have a 10th level companion
7th level druid could have a 11th level companion
8th level druid could have a 12th level companion
You should see the pattern I'm asking here.
Please show me were I've misunderstood this reading of the rule.
Thanks
Robyn
See the part where it says to a maximum of your character level.
To explain further, the feat lets you increase your effective level for the purpose of animal companion, to a maximum of your character level.
If you are a level 6 druid, your level for animal companion is 6.
If you are a druid 6/fighter 4, your level for animal companion is 10.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
I believe this sentence is the one that's causing the confusing. I'm pretty sure this feat was intended to make up for lost levels when multi-classing or with class abilities that are measured against Druids, i.e. "your animal companion is equal to that of a druid's but X levels lower," not for just increasing the power of an animal companion. It is, however, poorly worded.
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Ok, the boon companion feat from Seeker of Secrets says:
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.My question on the feat is: A Druid Level 6 (no other classes) has an animal companion and takes this feat.
His level is 6
Does his animal companion now sit as if the Druid were level 10, ie He is level 6 and four levels higher is level 10, with the maxiumum bonus level he could be is 12 (ie 6 + 6). But because of the four level limit it is only 10.
So 1st level druid could have a 2nd level companion
2nd level druid could have a 4th level companion
3rd level druid could have a 6th level companion
4th level druid could have a 8th level companion
5th level druid could have a 9th level companion
6th level druid could have a 10th level companion
7th level druid could have a 11th level companion
8th level druid could have a 12th level companionYou should see the pattern I'm asking here.
Please show me were I've misunderstood this reading of the rule.Thanks
Robyn
It also works great for a druid to take the animal domain instead of a animal companion at lvl 1, then take the feat when you get the animal companion from the domain power and your buddy is now the same as you would have got if you took it at the first level instead of the domain.
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I believe this sentence is the one that's causing the confusing. I'm pretty sure this feat was intended to make up for lost levels when multi-classing or with class abilities that are measured against Druids, i.e. "your animal companion is equal to that of a druid's but X levels lower," not for just increasing the power of an animal companion. It is, however, poorly worded.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
I agree, poor wording, that is why I was asking.
Too bad if the intent to simply to get other classes up to the ability of the druid class. Means that to a pure druid, this feat is meaningless.
Poor wording or poor reading?
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
It's rather explicit about how much of a bonus you get unless you want to completely ignore that line.
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Too bad if the intent to simply to get other classes up to the ability of the druid class. Means that to a pure druid, this feat is meaningless.
And that's exactly the case.
Just as Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL, up to character level) is useless to a single-classed wizard, but potentially cool for a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge or Sorcerer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight, Boon Companion is not of any use to a single class Druid who isn't going to multi-class, PrC or lose ECL through some sort of Level Adjustment.
Poor wording or poor reading?
It's rather explicit about how much of a bonus you get unless you want to completely ignore that line.
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
If I gave you a sword that granted a "maximum bonus equal to your character level," a 4th level character would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the "bonus" would be +4.
And thanks for the snark. That's always helpful.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
Either it's:
- poorly worded, and the RAI was to do without the bolded part above(like all similar feats granting higher caster levels etc.)
- as intended, meaning that you get an animal companion potentially way stronger than you
(note that there already exists a class with a companion stronger than the character: the Summoner)
Without some authority chiming in, we could debate all day long.
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{note that there already exists a class with a companion stronger than the character: the Summoner)
If your six hit point critter with an attack that does 1d6 is better than your 1d8 weapon using lightly armored eight hit point Summoner, you have your math backwards.
If by 'stronger' you mean that it has a higher movement rate, then yeah, it's totally faster than the Summoner. :)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
Here's the authority: it caps at your character level. So a 6th level druid / 2nd level bard can have an 8th level companion. Wrote the feat, sorry about the strange wording.
Personally, I think people who don't try to divine intent from strange rules are doing themselves a huge disservice. It's usually fairly easy to figure out what was intended :)
Poor wording or poor reading?
It's rather explicit about how much of a bonus you get unless you want to completely ignore that line.
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
If I gave you a sword that granted a "maximum bonus equal to your character level," a 4th level character would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the "bonus" would be +4.
And thanks for the snark. That's always helpful.
Snark is what I do.
It's patently obvious what it says, "Bonus of +4 up to your character level"
Not hard to understand if your level 4 and your animal companion is effective level 2 then it gets +2. If your effective animal companion level is equal to your character level then no bonus. If your effective animal companion is 6 levels behind you now it is 2.
I honestly can't understand how anyone could not understand that sentence if they play pathfinder.
Personally, I think people who don't try to divine intent from strange rules are doing themselves a huge disservice. It's usually fairly easy to figure out what was intended :)
Personally, I think people who write rules that force me to divine their intent, do everyone a disservice. It's usually fairly easy to figure out a clear wording. :P
I don't suppose you're the one who wrote the mechanics for the Adventurer's Sash, are you?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I don't suppose you're the one who wrote the mechanics for the Adventurer's Sash, are you?
I'd take the heat for the wording on Boon Companion, which arose from a desire to avoid using the inherently confusing construct of "maximum level equal to your character level". I also didn't want to spend an extra sentence or two explaining the concept, but possibly muddying the waters in the process. See how long Practiced Spellcater is without being perfectly clear itself. I'm not fond of using Hit Dice in place of level, but that's the solution the traits guide wound up using, and it is probably better. It's actually a game concept that is kind of a pain to describe in a way that can't possibly be misread.
As far as adventurer's sash goes, the original could be dropped as a swift or move action (I specified both, since you can't do two swifts in a round). The main benefit benefit other than that is that it combines the safety of a backpack when the flaps are secured with easy access in combat(see the notes under "draw or sheathe weapon" in the Combat chapter) when they are not. It's more of a flavor item than a min-max item, so I can see that confusing people who expect a big in-game benefit for a 20 gp item. Think of it as a masterwork backpack, not a scabbard of quick draw. That's actually exactly how the price was determined.
In its current incarnation, the quick-release is probably best reflected by letting it be dumped as part of regular movement, which keeps the original design goal of it being weight you can drop in a hurry. If I'd been asked to take the double-action wording out of it, that's what I would have replaced it with.
Whether or not there are benefits to securing the flaps or tying down the gear inside kind of depends on the type of game you play in - some GMs never worry about items falling out of containers or getting broken in falls, some do.
In any case, I tend to disagree on clear wording being easy. Trying to disambiguate rules bloats rulebooks, and reduces useful content. And every extra sentence has the potential for opening up more questions.
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Snark is what I do.
It's patently obvious what it says, "Bonus of +4 up to your character level"
Not hard to understand if your level 4 and your animal companion is effective level 2 then it gets +2. If your effective animal companion level is equal to your character level then no bonus. If your effective animal companion is 6 levels behind you now it is 2.
I honestly can't understand how anyone could not understand that sentence if they play pathfinder.
Sorry we aren't as brilliant as you!
Gosh the sun is bright in your presence.
I'm going to have to return all those college degree's I've earned and tell my students that they will have to return those diplomas, because I must be an idiot!
How DARE I actually ASK others what it means even!
Well, I better go and return my computer in and tell all my clients that I cannot work on their computer any longer, I've been declared an idiot by a snark!
Honestly, What I generally appreciate about the boards here, is that people are friendly and willing to answer an honest question.
Thank you everyone else who intelligently answered my original question and helped me see the original intent. If it had been crystal clear, then I wouldn't have been looking for clarification.
Not everyone has your IQ Abraham (thank goodness, most of us are higher) :)
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Here's the authority: it caps at your character level. So a 6th level druid / 2nd level bard can have an 8th level companion. Wrote the feat, sorry about the strange wording.
Personally, I think people who don't try to divine intent from strange rules are doing themselves a huge disservice. It's usually fairly easy to figure out what was intended :)
Russ (and others) thank you for the clarification. I wasn't trying to min/max the feat, but found it interesting for my Druid who had just reached 7th level and I'm trying to fill him out.
It looks pretty neat, and it caught my eye.
Thanks!
Robyn
Sure. Anyways it's quite plain and follows the same language that's used everytime a feat like this (or other ability like it) comes out. You are welcome.
If that's the reading comprehension available now... makes me glad I graduated when I did.
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Ahh, the great internet epeens :P
Perhaps we could come up with a sentence to tack on that would make it clear? Surely with all of our I.Q.'s, we should be able to come up with something :P
"This ability cannot raise your effective druid levels higher than your total character level."
"For example, a druid4/ranger2 would calculate abilities for her animal companion as a druid 6. A druid 6 would receive no benefit from this feat."
Something along those lines, maybe.
Ahh, the great internet epeens :P
Perhaps we could come up with a sentence to tack on that would make it clear? Surely with all of our I.Q.'s, we should be able to come up with something :P
"This ability cannot raise your effective druid levels higher than your total character level."
"For example, a druid4/ranger2 would calculate abilities for her animal companion as a druid 6. A druid 6 would receive no benefit from this feat."
Something along those lines, maybe.
Hm...
"Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar."
Like that?
As far as adventurer's sash goes, the original could be dropped as a swift or move action (I specified both, since you can't do two swifts in a round). The main benefit benefit other than that is that it combines the safety of a backpack when the flaps are secured with easy access in combat(see the notes under "draw or sheathe weapon" in the Combat chapter) when they are not. It's more of a flavor item than a min-max item, so I can see that confusing people who expect a big in-game benefit for a 20 gp item. Think of it as a masterwork backpack, not a scabbard of quick draw. That's actually exactly how the price was determined.
So the primary benefit of keeping an item in one of the pouches (unfastened) is that it doesn't trigger an AoO, while retrieving the same item from a backpack would?
Re: the bold portion of the quote. Is that snark? 'Cause I'm not a min/max person, nor I do expect 20 gp items to be incredibly useful. But when I read a line like, "left unfastened for easier access," I do expect the affect on the action economy to be clear. I don't think I'm alone nor being unreasonable.
In any case, I tend to disagree on clear wording being easy. Trying to disambiguate rules bloats rulebooks, and...
Fair enough. I've done enough technical writing to now that it isn't always easy, so poor word choice on my part. I also have little sympathy for those who insist on parsing every single word of every single rule and trying to find and exploit any inconsistency or ambiguity, in other words, Rules Lawyers. Grrr. Me hates 'em.
That having been said, "Oh well, they'll figure it out," is too far in the other direction. Having to stop a game mid combat to try and "divine" the author's intention is a big time sink. If I wanted to make it up as I went along, I'd still be playing 1st Edition.
Still, loved Seekers of Secrets. It was a big inspiration for my current (homebrew) campaign , so, thanks for that.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Nope, not being snarky. Just trying to point out that it is largely a flavor item, rather than a game advantage item.
The wording's not that far off of an explorer's outfit, which also doesn't go into the game benefits...they are kind of in the hands of the GM and what they decide counts as a weapon-like object, subject to the guidance in the combat chapter. Again, the big deal was supposed to be being able to get rid of it fast, which seemed like the sort of thing a Pathfinder with low Str might need :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Ahh, the great internet epeens :P
Perhaps we could come up with a sentence to tack on that would make it clear? Surely with all of our I.Q.'s, we should be able to come up with something :P
"This ability cannot raise your effective druid levels higher than your total character level."
Something along those lines, maybe.
Except it works for rangers, wizards, and some sorcerers too...and should work for summoners. Probably "the maximum effective level for the class ability cannot be higher than your character level" would have been best, even though it does the double level thing.
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Except it works for rangers, wizards, and some sorcerers too...and should work for summoners. Probably "the maximum effective level for the class ability cannot be higher than your character level" would have been best, even though it does the double level thing.
Ideally, such a feat or trait should work for any class with a pokemon, including paladins and witches, without it having to explicitly list each such class.
Might even make it worth to dip the four levels fighter to gain armored movement and somesuch. And, as far as I would read it...
- does the granted effect only apply to ONE PARTICULAR KIND OF animal companion or is the wording to be read as "you can't use this feat to simultaneously boost more than one class feature at a time", i.e. no boosting familiar AND animal companion without taking the feat twice?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Might even make it worth to dip the four levels fighter to gain armored movement and somesuch. And, as far as I would read it...
- does the granted effect only apply to ONE PARTICULAR KIND OF animal companion or is the wording to be read as "you can't use this feat to simultaneously boost more than one class feature at a time", i.e. no boosting familiar AND animal companion without taking the feat twice?
You have to take it once per companion or familiar.
"If your effective level for purposes of calculating your companion's abilities is less than your total character level, you may calculate those abilities as though your effective level were up to four levels higher. If your effective level ever exceeds your character level, the benefit of this feat reduces accordingly."
Sure. Anyways it's quite plain and follows the same language that's used everytime a feat like this (or other ability like it) comes out. You are welcome.
O.K., now you're just making stuff up.
- From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice" --> perfectly clear, talks about total caster level
- From the Boon Companion feat: "The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level" --> not clear, talks only about maximum bonus
I agree with your interpretation (you can't increase your equivalent druid level above your character level), but the feat is sloppily worded.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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[list]From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice" --> perfectly clear, talks about total caster level
Not perfectly clear, since many people don't understand that hit dice and character level are equivalent. I've answered questions for years on people confused by the two being used interchangeably.
Also, magical knack is something of an infamous trait for players not being sure if caster level means you get more spells per day, or just more effective use of them (the latter).
Also, magical knack is something of an infamous trait for players not being sure if caster level means you get more spells per day, or just more effective use of them (the latter).
Hmm, then I may have been doing it wrong. Oh well, maybe houserule time.
Question though. Does it count for creating items, that is if you have magical knack, gaining a +2 to caster level, could you create a +2 sword when you are a 4th level wizard, but have a total caster level of 6? Or greater bracers of archery when you are a 6th level wizard, but have a caster level of 8 with the trait?
Not perfectly clear, since many people don't understand that hit dice and character level are equivalent. I've answered questions for years on people confused by the two being used interchangeably.
...as long as "monstrous hit dice" (from unusual races) aren't brought into the equation - and, yes, I know Pathfinder hasn't brought them here... yet.
D&D and Pathfinder both suffer from glossaritis: an illness that you can only overcome by memorizing the game's glossary (or always having it next to you). Yet, people don't always see when a couple words in a sentence refer to the special effect that is defined in said glossary. Is "grapple" the same as "Grapple"? What about "standard action" and the like?
When a group of words has a clear meaning, I think it should always be chosen when wanting to convey that meaning, and it should also be written with a particular emphasis (font/color/italics/capitalized/whatever) reserved for all the terms being defined in said glossary (could simply be made as HTML links, like it's done in the online PRD). That is one of the way to have clearer rules.
In the same way, to avoid unnecessary debate from rule-lawyers, when several things (spells, feats, etc.) have the same effect, that effect should be written in exactly the same way. If you add one word, people will interpret the effect differently. Being creative in formulation only confuses readers.
This was not a rant, and not directed at a particular person or rule, just a couple thoughts on the way of writing rules for a RPG (and, believe me, I tried too).
Question though. Does it count for creating items, that is if you have magical knack, gaining a +2 to caster level, could you create a +2 sword when you are a 4th level wizard, but have a total caster level of 6? Or greater bracers of archery when you are a 6th level wizard, but have a caster level of 8 with the trait?
Yes, as long as your [character level] is higher than your [class level] in the [wizard class] by at least 2.
As Russ said, [caster level] doesn't mean [class level] in a [spellcasting class]. When an ability allows you to gain spells and spell levels, it's generally written as "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" and expanded in the ability's description (generally followed by "you don't gain anything else from the spellcasting class").
[list]From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice" --> perfectly clear, talks about total caster level
Not perfectly clear, since many people don't understand that hit dice and character level are equivalent. I've answered questions for years on people confused by the two being used interchangeably.
Also, magical knack is something of an infamous trait for players not being sure if caster level means you get more spells per day, or just more effective use of them (the latter).
As another point, Hit Dice no longer necessarily equal character level. For example, a Minotaur PC starts as a level 4 character with 6 hit dice and no class levels. So... hit dice is NOT a good way to limit feats anymore.
Seem like to me it should readsomething like
"From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your Total character level"
But then we would get folks asking "whats a total charter level" so you would change it to
From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your Total character level in all classes"
The ya would have folks asking "Does that mean each class? Or do I add them together?"
Ya can never make it clear to everyone but myself I would says "total character level"
Question though. Does it count for creating items, that is if you have magical knack, gaining a +2 to caster level, could you create a +2 sword when you are a 4th level wizard, but have a total caster level of 6? Or greater bracers of archery when you are a 6th level wizard, but have a caster level of 8 with the trait?
Correct for the sword, you would not take a -5 penalty for failing to meet the caster level prerequisite.
The Bracers you do not need Magical Knack at all - the DC to create them is 13 (18 without bow proficiency), regardless of your caster level.
"Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class level were four levels higher than is actually the case, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. "
Fixed it for you: NOW it's clear. A "bonus" (as the feat is currently worded) isn't a level, it's a bonus.
Just because you and I know what they intended, does not in any way imply that the rule is clearly written as-is. In fact, for something that's supposed to serve as a rules mechanic, that feat is so poorly-worded that I'd've fired the writer and the editor both.
Pathfinder rules should be as clear as possible to everyone, not just for people who are intimately familiar with the Practiced Spellcaster feat.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Just because you and I know what they intended, does not in any way imply that the rule is clearly written as-is. In fact, for something that's supposed to serve as a rules mechanic, that feat is so poorly-worded that I'd've fired the writer and the editor both.
I find it somewhat amusing that you have a typo in this sentence (or at least a contraction that would never see print).
Anyhow, I appreciate your well-wishes about my status as a freelancer, and wanted to assure you that my day job will keep my family fed even if you have your way.
I know I should have kept quiet, but it's not every day you see someone expressing their desire to have you fired :)
Seem like to me it should readsomething like
"From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your Total character level"
But then we would get folks asking "whats a total charter level" so you would change it to
From the Magical Knack trait: "Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your Total character level in all classes"
The ya would have folks asking "Does that mean each class? Or do I add them together?"
Ya can never make it clear to everyone but myself I would says "total character level"
IIRC they specifically define total character level near the beginning of the core book, so it can be assumed that the players or the GM knows what that means.
As another point, Hit Dice no longer necessarily equal character level. For example, a Minotaur PC starts as a level 4 character with 6 hit dice and no class levels. So... hit dice is NOT a good way to limit feats anymore.
Pathfinder at the moment does not have a complete set of rules defined for monster player characters. So that criticism should be taken with a grain of salt.
As far as the minotaur is concerned, hit dice is a good limiter on such type of feats. That's part of the price for paying a monster.
I don't think you quite grasp what my point was.
Here's another example. Let us say take the minotaur example. Let us also assume said Minotaur took 1 level of Druid.
Hit Dice : 7
Character Level : 5
Druid Level : 1
If you use hit dice as the limiter instead of character level (which do not equal!), you would have a situation where if you use hit dice instead of character level, the Minotaur will get more benefit that someone of equal character level, because the minotaur has more hit dice than character level. This is exacerbated at higher levels. At level 10 you'd have :
Hit Dice : 14
Character Level : 10
Druid Level : 8 (assuming no multiclassing)
So, a 10th level fighter (per the bestiary, equivalent to a 8th level druid minotaur) would have 4 less hit dice worth of benefit from any feat that uses hit dice instead of character level.
So no, hit dice is not a good limiter on feats. It should be, as designed, CHARACTER level.
From the feat in discussion here, a 1st level Druid Minotaur using hit dice instead of Character Level would have an animal companion that was equivalent to a 5th level druid. That's fine, because he's a 5th level character. However, because of the current rules, at CL 10, he'd have an animal companion that was equivalent of a 12th level Druid (8 levels of druid, +4 since 8 + 4 < hitdice of 14). Instead, it should use Character Level, which would allow the Minotaur to have an animal companion equal to a 10th level druid (which is more in line with the design of the feat).
The mistake you're making is how you're calculating effective character level. or ECL.
For something like a Minotaur the total character level would be the addition of class levels, hit dice, and whatever effective adjustment made. Monster characters have an effective character level higher than thier total hit dice. the Minotaur's ECL adjustment adds 2 to the combination of hit dice from racial hit dice and class levels.
No, your mistake is in how you are using 3.5 ECL. There is no ecl in Pathfinder.
Per the pathfinder bestiary, a Minotar is, as statted in the book, a 4th level character that has 6 hit dice. You use ONLY the CR of the monster. Therefore, you do NOT add hit dice to class level when determining the character level.
You add the CR + class levels only. Hit dice have no impact. Every 3rd level, they reduce the CR by one, and add one class level. They do this until the CR is reduced by half.
I suggest you read the section of the bestiary covering monstrous PCs.
@LazerX
Here is the relevant text, to make things easier.
Monsters as PCsUsing one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.
For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.
Then I propose a much simpler limiter for such a feat. The total number of class levels represents the effective character level for any feat that boosts a character's effective level for such things as ...
Animal companion
Familliar abilities.
caster level.
The minotaur in the above level is character level 8 for the purposes of such a feat.
That would completely and totally negate the benefit of the Boon Companion for the Minotaur.
I suggest instead we use the system as designed, and simply allow the minotaur in the above exampmle to take the Boon Companion and have his companion be the same as a 10th level druids (his character level). This keeps him in line with his fellow party members.
It doesn't totally negate the benefit -- it simply reduces it. He does get the +2 instead of the +4 which means he has a full strength AC.
Honestly though this feat isn't designed for full class characters -- and it shouldn't be -- it's to help those that multiclass but want to keep their companion fairly strong or those that have a companion that starts weaker than a druids (for example animal domain clerics/druids and rangers).
It also works with familiars so it's nice for EK's that want to get their familiar up to intelligence 10, or have a few more points to go towards AC for it.
I find it somewhat amusing that you have a typo in this sentence (or at least a contraction that would never see print).
Sorry, Russ -- my intense annoyance at some of the vague writing in the core rules (which a number of people pointed out in the Beta, and much of which was never corrected) has spilled over onto the supplements. In your case, an e-slap on the wrist should suffice!
Regarding awkward contractions: I use things like "I'd've" in speech (or a messageboard), but would fully support you in removing me from my own position, if I ever put something like that into a technical document. Rules language, like scientific language or legal verbiage, I hold to a much higher standard than I do casual speech.
It doesn't totally negate the benefit -- it simply reduces it. He does get the +2 instead of the +4 which means he has a full strength AC.
Honestly though this feat isn't designed for full class characters -- and it shouldn't be -- it's to help those that multiclass but want to keep their companion fairly strong or those that have a companion that starts weaker than a druids (for example animal domain clerics/druids and rangers).
It also works with familiars so it's nice for EK's that want to get their familiar up to intelligence 10, or have a few more points to go towards AC for it.
I agree, that's why I said so. LazarX's way, of using total class levels, would have negated all benefit.