I believe tiny creatures and smaller don't occupy a square, so... Imune to flanking? That's how I'd go.
I believe tiny creatures and smaller don't occupy a square, so... Imune to flanking? That's how I'd go.
That is how I see it as well. Makes reduce person great for small PCs.
If a tiny creature is within your square, do you, with an adjacent ally, flank this creature?
A strict reading of the RAW would say "no" (since a line from the center of your square to your ally's square does not pass through two opposite sides of the creature's square), but I'd buy the argument that you are providing flanking by standing on one side (of your choice) of said creature.
How have others played this situation?
You can't end your turn in the same square as another creature.
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
So that leaves only two possibilities:
1. You are helpless, and therefore cannot threaten, and therefore cannot flank.
Or:
2. You are attempting to get an Attack of Opportunity on the Tiny as it moves through your square.
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
So, I would do this:
1. If the Tiny makes an Acrobatics check to move through an occupied square, it can avoid the AoO and thereby not be Flanked. (It moved through a gap that was not between you and your ally.)
2. If the Tiny fails the Acrobatics check or chooses not to make one, it takes the AoO with Flanking for the adjacent ally. (It moved directly between you and your ally.)
Exception: If you don't threaten your own square, perhaps because you a wielding a Reach weapon, then you don't threaten your own square, don't get the AoO, don't get the Flank, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect 200gp.
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
Emphasis mine.
So creatures with natural reach of 0 feet have to enter other squares to attack. So they are an exception to the rule of "only enter an opponent's square if they are helpless".
Also, it notes that they can "be attacked normally". From this I would extrapolate that they can be flanked. How they can be flanked sort of requires some sort of quasi-facing rules. Namely indicating which portion of a square a smaller-than-small creature is currently in. This is probably best indicated by which side of the square the creature entered.
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Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.Emphasis mine.
So creatures with natural reach of 0 feet have to enter other squares to attack. So they are an exception to the rule of "only enter an opponent's square if they are helpless".
Also, it notes that they can "be attacked normally". From this I would extrapolate that they can be flanked. How they can be flanked sort of requires some sort of quasi-facing rules. Namely indicating which portion of a square a smaller-than-small creature is currently in. This is probably best indicated by which side of the square the creature entered.
THis is how I understand it as well and would adjudicate it as a DM.
So they are an exception to the rule of "only enter an opponent's square if they are helpless".
There is no such rule.
If you take RAW, than the answer is NO. If you take a real life example, the answer is also NO. Just think about a big hairy spider runnig between and around your legs, trying to bite your toe. Why would it be easier to hit this pesky spider just because you have an ally standing next to you?
So, if my buddy and I were standing ten feet apart, and the hairy spider was exactly five feet from both of us, it's an easy target for both of us to hit with sticks.
However, if the spider gets close enough that I can actually stomp on it, and my buddy is close enough to swing at it with his stick, then it is a much harder target for both of us to hit.
Is this the "real life" experience you are attempting to inject into the rules?
I think you're misunderstanding the question.Nope, understand if perfectly.
Of course two medium creatures can flank a tiny creature -- my question is what happens when that tiny creature is in the same square as one of the medium creatures. This is a situation which cannot happen with medium + huge (or medium + anything else for that matter).Actually, that is not true. Creatures three size categories difference can occupy the same space no matter what. Therefore, a medium PC can occupy the same space as a gargantuan creature. For creatures smaller than small, a difference of only two size categories is sufficient.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
However, this does not allow said creature to end its movement there.
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
If a Tiny creature enters a square in order to attack, then it provokes an AoO from the target creature. If the Tiny survives the AoO, then it can attack. After the attack, it must return to the last legal square it occupied.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
As a GM, I would also rule that an ally adjacent to the target creature provides a flanking bonus to the target creature's AoO. I would also rule that the Tiny can avoid the AoO entirely with an Acrobatics check.
If a Tiny creature enters a square in order to attack, then it provokes an AoO from the target creature. If the Tiny survives the AoO, then it can attack. After the attack, it must return to the last legal square it occupied.
I am fairly certain this is untrue. It would require every tiny creature to use Spring Attack or Flyby Attack. If they don't have one of those feats, they would be incapable of a Move-Attack-Move sequence. So based on what you've said here, we have a paradox.
You are quite right, they shouldn't end their turn in an occupied space (per the RAW) but they also cannot Move-Attack-Move all in one round (also per the RAW). But, clearly, tiny creatures attack all the time. I've seen my cats eat mice, a process that involved many attacks until they decided to end the combat and begin the meal.
So, in order to resolve this paradox, we must ask ourselves, ala Occam's Razor, which is the simplest answer for that one is most likely the correct one:
A. The rules for tiny creatures break the cardinal rules for actions in combat, and this was by design, but nobody bothered to mention this anywhere in the book despite the fact that they very deliberately chose to break a fundamental rule of the game without so much as a hint that this was their intent.
or
B. The rules for tiny creatures break the cardinal rules for sharing occupied spaces, and this was by design (which we know because they added a whole subsection of the combat rules to address this very subject) but they omitted, via oversight or the plain assumption that we would figure it out, that they can in fact end their turn there.
To me, B seems far far more likely to be true.
If a Tiny creature enters a square in order to attack, then it provokes an AoO from the target creature. If the Tiny survives the AoO, then it can attack. After the attack, it must return to the last legal square it occupied.
I am fairly certain this is untrue. It would require every tiny creature to use Spring Attack or Flyby Attack. If they don't have one of those feats, they would be incapable of a Move-Attack-Move sequence. So based on what you've said here, we have a paradox.
You are quite right, they shouldn't end their turn in an occupied space (per the RAW) but they also cannot Move-Attack-Move all in one round (also per the RAW). But, clearly, tiny creatures attack all the time. I've seen my cats eat mice, a process that involved many attacks until they decided to end the combat and begin the meal.
So, in order to resolve this paradox, we must ask ourselves, ala Occam's Razor, which is the simplest answer for that one is most likely the correct one:
A. The rules for tiny creatures break the cardinal rules for actions in combat, and this was by design, but nobody bothered to mention this anywhere in the book despite the fact that they very deliberately chose to break a fundamental rule of the game without so much as a hint that this was their intent.
or
B. The rules for tiny creatures break the cardinal rules for sharing occupied spaces, and this was by design (which we know because they added a whole subsection of the combat rules to address this very subject) but they omitted, via oversight or the plain assumption that we would figure it out, that they can in fact end their turn there.
To me, B seems far far more likely to be true.
I think you are misinterpreting the final positional correction as a second move action.
It's this:
- Move into target square
- Attack target
- <Oops, can't end my turn here; by the rules, I am repositioned to my last legal square>
The third point is not a move, because it is compulsory. The Tiny's controller has no say in the matter, it can't choose to move or not move, nor can it choose where to move; by the rules it must return to one very specific designated square.
Spring Attack or Flyby Attack would give the Tiny a choice of moving to a square other than the one they would otherwise be rules-bound to occupy.
However, if you really want a mind-bender, think about a Stirge grappling a medium creature. What square does the Stirge occupy while drinking blood? :-)
However, if you really want a mind-bender, think about a Stirge grappling a medium creature. What square does the Stirge occupy while drinking blood? :-)
The same square that a cat occupies while it is scratching you. Or that a chuihuahua occupies while it is piddling on your shoe...
Answer: They all occupy their opponent's square, just like the rules say they do.
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I think I'd have to go with another_mage's proposal as it's the simplest and it has enough RAW behind it to make sense.
Tiny creature has 0 reach so must enter square to attack. It cannot end it's turn in an illegal space so must return to last legal space it occupied. It's not really movement, nor an action. Like the 5 foot step it's "Not an Action." So a tiny creature most certainly can be flanked, quite easily in fact.
--Vrocky Mountains
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From the core rulebook
Page 193:
Very Small Creature:
A fine, diminutive, or tiny creature can move into, or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Ending your Movement:
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
Page 194:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
Thus, Spider moves to attack. Provokes an attack of opportunity, does his single attack, ends his turn, is moved back to either the last square he moved through and could stop in legally, or the nearest available legal square if it's closer.
Also note that in order for this to happen, the creature will most likely be leaving a threatened square, thus provoking an additional attack of opportunity.
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Page 194:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
Some would adjudicate that this doesn't apply as in a tiny creature's case the movement is fully intentional not 'accidentally' at all.
From the core rulebook
Page 193:
Very Small Creature:
A fine, diminutive, or tiny creature can move into, or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.Ending your Movement:
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.Page 194:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.Thus, Spider moves to attack. Provokes an attack of opportunity, does his single attack, ends his turn, is moved back to either the last square he moved through and could stop in legally, or the nearest available legal square if it's closer.
Also note that in order for this to happen, the creature will most likely be leaving a threatened square, thus provoking an additional attack of opportunity.
You'll note that the "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space:" rule applies to the movement, right? So if you're moving, and "accidentally" end in an occupied space, you literally alter the move to put yourself in the last space you passed through that you can legally stop in.
You do this BEFORE you can attack anything.
Which means applying this rule to a tiny creature that has deliberately moved into a space it is legally allowed to move into, finished its move, made an attack, and is now magically teleporting back to some other space at the end of its turn is a bit of a stretch and is clearly not within the puview of this "accidental movement" rule.
Even worse if you stretch even farther to throw an AoO on the poor little guy in the process, since the "accedental movement" rule that you qouted would have literally stopped the creature's movement before it provoked any AoO:
K
.
.
x
F
(K = kobold, F = fighter, x = empty space, . = empty space)
For example, suppose a Small kobold tries to move south 4 spaces, directly into this fighter's space and end its movment there and attack the fighter. Well, it can't do that because it isn't Tiny, so the "accidental movment" rule is invoked and it ends its movement in the space marked x. This means it never provokes an AoO entering the fighter's space and it never provokes an AoO leaving that space (becase it was never in the fighter's space to begin with, so it never leaves his space, right?). It also means that all of this happens before the kobold attacks the fighter.
The end result is that the kobold moves 15' south to the space marked x and then makes its normal attack. No AoOs are provoked.
Now replace that kobold (K) with a kittycat (K). It wants to move south 4 spaces and attack the fighter. Because it is Tiny, it is allowed to do this. It provokes an AoO entering the fighter's space. If it survives the AoO, it ends its movement in the fighter's space and makes an attack.
It Must end its movement in the fighter's space because the kittycat has a reach of 0 and cannot attack the fighter from any other space - the RAW says so. Furthmore, it doesn't have Spring Attack so it must end its movement before it can use a standard action to attack the fighter.
After the kittycat finishes scratching the fighter, its turn is done. We do not invoke the "accidental movement" rule because everything it did was deliberate, was legal, and was required by the RAW. Furthermore, we couldn't invoke that "accidental movement" rule because the kittycat already ended his movement action and already took his standard action after it finished its move.
So the kittcat remains in the fighter's speace and its turn is over.
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Meh, I read that as a more formal ending of movement. As in, mob has movement of 10. Moves 5 and attacks. The mob still has 5 movement left. When the mob chooses to end it's turn, and thus its remaining opportunities to move, the movement is ended.
I can see where you could read it as each individual square of movement, but I don't know that I agree with that.
Bleh, I blame my years of MTG
Untap
Upkeep
Draw
First phase
Combat Phase
Second Phase
Cleanup
End Turn
:p
Also, while "accidental" is in the title, it's not mentioned in the mechanics of what happens. Naming it a Big Star doesn't mean the burger comes with a rock between two buns :p
Bleh, I blame my years of MTG
Untap
Upkeep
Draw
First phase
Combat Phase
Second Phase
Cleanup
End Turn:p
Hah!
I Chaos Orb all your Moxes and trample you with my Leviathans!
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Tiny creatures being flanked?
Two ways I see this...
Tiny fairy flying around my head, and my friend swings his bastard sword towards it... Yeah, flanking advantage? For who?
Same situation, but with a pesky human near my boot. Bob swings big fat club down on nasty little human... Flanking advantage for who again?
For me, part of flanking advantage is it's hard to see whats going on behind you and in front of you. Being 3 sizes smaller gives you an advantage that eliminates flanking. You only have to look one direction: up.