|
It's been a little over 4 months since I posted here. The situation has gotten worse and worse. I've soldiered through it, stopped giving out treasure and better gear, still the group is functioning easily 4 levels above their party level.
Every module I pick up to run is a joke, even if I double the number of monsters and add advanced templates.
I'm going to wrap up the campaign on the next session. I just don't think that Pathfinder is going to work for us. The system is too easy to abuse. The only way that PF functions is that there must be a compact between DM and players that the players will make reasonable characters and the DM will provide them with reasonable challenges.
I've never player 4E, but from descriptions I've read/heard it sounds like it might be right up your alley. Running 3.5/PF well, often requires an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and a thorough understanding of the way CR and wealth distribution works. Even using modules, prep time can be significant if you're not comfortable fudging rolls and manipulating statistics on the fly while also remaining within the bounds of the system's assumed mechanics.
From what I've heard, 4E is very much a plug-and-play system.
Show us the party stats, please. Unabridged.
Then we can tell you where the problem is. Right now, not enough information to say anything for sure... and offering the wrong solution could exacerbate the problem.
[HUGE WALL OF TEXT REMOVED AS I SUDDENLY REALIZE I REPLIED TO AN ANCIENT POST]
Sigh.
Say for example 6 advanced trolls against 7 6th level characters. Now the module is for 10th level characters and my characters are (were) 6th level.
They are not leveling as quickly or getting the treasure as quickly as they would if there were 4 characters. I thought this would balance out.
However, everyone is much more effective due to the number of party members. Two clerics using channel energy can erase any damage I can inflict on the party in one round. The rogue never has difficulty creating a flank.
It's not as if simply adding more monsters takes away these advantages.
The monsters that seem to be appropriate challenges (per the rules) hit about 50% of the time. They seem to average around 12 points of damage per round to the character they are fighting. The clerics heal that instantly.
The characters deal much more damage and hit much more frequently and have more options to regain hp than any monsters. When trying to run higher level opponents, I'm running into scaling difficulties such as Damage Reduction(such as DR 15/Good, meaning that no one can hit and damage the monsters).
We haven't talked about it, but I think that Channel Energy may be a primary culprit in why I can't challenge the party. I was a very challenging DM in 3.5 (even running larger groups). Cure spells were a very limited resource in 3.5 and were not as effective.
[For example in a party of 7 characters, a 3.5 6th level cleric could cast a Cure Serious Wounds and restore an average of 19 hp to one character in a round; a PF 6th level cleric can use channel energy and restore an average of 10 hp - which ends up being 70 hp per round. With two clerics you can see why this is a problem.]
Take it easy on monsters that do hit point damage and that'll get simpler. More creatures that attack ability scores will help. Creatures that paralyze or poison will help. Bad guys with support troops will help. USE SPELLCASTERS. A fireball or three will nicely send a message to your group. There's no reason why a 7x 6th party shouldn't be seeing a CR9 bad guy with a couple CR5 sorcerer support troops. Understand you're SORT OF CR8 baseline for level-appropriate encounters. CR10 is merely "hard".
You need to diversify. Have bad guys who are buffed by their own cleric. bull's strength goes a long way to do more to-hit and damage and there's no loot to gather after the fight. Give the bad guys reach weapons (or be large) and a druid who uses entangle.
Look, I'm playing in a group with 6 PCs, 1 DMPC, and two animal companions right now. We all just hit 7th. I'm watching the travesty unfold. The DM keeps throwing dumb monsters at us, and it's not working. I've got tonnes of ideas to challenge this party but the DM just isn't experienced enough to pull it off. We've got one session left. It's either going to be a TPK, or we're going to massacre something in excess of CR11.
That's the problem. Too many bodies. It's hard to address that, and simply running higher modules doesn't cut it. You need to custom design encounters.
However, everyone is much more effective due to the number of party members. Two clerics using channel energy can erase any damage I can inflict on the party in one round. The rogue never has difficulty creating a flank.It's not as if simply adding more monsters takes away these advantages.
The monsters that seem to be appropriate challenges (per the rules) hit about 50% of the time. They seem to average around 12 points of damage per round to the character they are fighting. The clerics heal that instantly.
for my 2cp, try concentrating your attacks, if a monster can only do 12HP damage, then have 2 or 3 attacka single creature. Create a 'shield wall', this will make a rogue flanking harder. Also use the terrain to stop this, but it will always be difficult with a larger party. The shield wall would work better with larger creatures (trolls/ ogres) if the rogue tries to tumble through them. but beware of AoE spells.
If you cannot judge the DR & set it too high, then combine it with fast healing or regen. Or just fudge the creatures HP, the main aim is too have fun.
"Show us the party stats, please. Unabridged."
Sorry I don't have them with me. (The players take their character sheets home.) The best I could do is guess.
This seems to me to be an integral part of the problem. I would have a very hard time balancing encounters and challenging the players at all if I didn't have their sheets to reference.
I make my players update a googledoc so that I always have a current copy between games. You might consider doing something like this.
Ask them all to bring a copy to next session, and then report back here with the results. I am positive that with that information the people on this forum can get you the game you want — not just murdering the players, but challenging them. It isn't easy, especially not once a campaign has been going for a while.
Until we see the numbers, my advice is: more random encounters!
Let's see if I can provide some more information.
The shadow was killed by a combination of Spiritual Weapon (force damage - like a magic missile - so no miss chance) and a big greataxe strike. The axe was coated with a Magic Weapon oil, and the fighter succeeded on his miss chance roll for attacking incorporeal.
In truth, more than one shadow would have probably been more appropriate, even though the CR wouldn't indicate that.
Firstly, shadows are mean. They're also thinkers. Unlike simple beasts such as animals and vermin, shadows have a 6 intelligence, which means they are sentient-level intelligence. Shadows know they're incorporeal, so they can use that to their advantage. Shadows are actually very unfair opponents because they can lurk INSIDE walls and floors and attack blindly outward (50% miss chance, but it's a virtually foolproof defense, since they're inside the floor/wall).
Likewise, your party just sounds smart. Carrying an oil of magic weapon for such occasions should be praised.
The characters were created with I think 25 point buy for slightly better powered characters than the base 20. I wanted the characters to be powerful enough to handle threats at low-levels; apparently they are too effective.
My players use 25 PB too; which is actually a drop compared their old expected ability score generation method.
The party formation is as follows:Dwarven Fighter (High Strength, High Constitution) using a great axe (weapon focus, weapon specialization); with power attack, I think he deals 1d12+9 damage. He is in full plate armor and has an AC of 21, I think (from Dex adjustment).
Human Cleric using longsword in full plate with a heavy shield; I think his AC is 22.
Human Paladin using longsword in full plate with a heavy shield; I think her AC is 22.
Wizard (evoker) has a Wand of Scorching Ray (not fully charged) and is eating up the charges in every encounter. Until he is out, he is going to be a canon.
Firstly, none of these guys sound terribly optimized, except maybe the Dwarven Fighter. All of them seem to be sacrificing damage for armor and shields, so things SHOULD be having trouble hitting them. If they weren't, then they're just giving up damage for nothing. Likewise, high AC should mean less critical hits against them. Since they were packing oils of magic weapons, and focusing defensively rather than offensively; it sounds like you have a good group of survivalists.
In the wizards case, the -4 penalty for firing rays into melee is a big drawback; but he's an evoker. Core damage dealing spells are generally a bad way to go. The dwarven fighter you mentioned deals 1d12+9 damage (an average of 15.5 damage) per swing, which makes the 4d6 (average damage 14) scorching ray very unimpressive. Doubly so when things like Resist Energy or creature resistances come into play.
In short, the wizard doesn't sound very powerful either. In fact, if he's focusing on dealing damage magically (IE - rays, fireballs, etc), he will probably continue to remain behind the melee warriors forever (especially at high levels), unless he learns to use spells like Haste instead (instead of casting Fireball which deals an average of 35 damage at full strength; haste can give the entire party +30ft speed and +1 attack/round, which equates to more damage from the entire party).
Human Cleric using a net in chain shirt. His AC is 18. He doesn't deal lethal damage, so he isn't overpowering. (If anything, he's a little underpowered compared to the others - but that's the way the player likes it.)Dwarven Alchemist (from the Advanced Playtest). His AC is around 16. He uses splash weapon attacks and does around 5 points of damage to every opponent within 10 feet of his attack even if he misses. (I don't have a problem challenging this guy either, like the human cleric with the chain shirt.)
A good mixture of support, physical debuffs, and artillery. Nets are golden for combat because the entangled condition is brutal; and the fact they're a touch attack is grand. Alchemists are also very fun. :D
The most recent session we were down 2 players (the paladin and alchemist). Therefore we had the dwarven fighter, human wizard, human cleric (battle cleric), and human cleric (not combat centric).The fight with the owlbear was with just a single owlbear. It charged the dwarven fighter and missed (bad roll I guess). Then the fighter and battle cleric moved into flank positions and the wizard zapped it with scorching ray. Dead in a round. Got off one attack (which missed).
Ok, here's a big one. The owlbear had no chance in this fight. I believe you said that the party was 4th level (since that's the earliest the fighter could have specialization), and the owlbear is CR 4. The owlbear had no prayer of anything beyond hurting one of the party members in this fight.
There are two major reasons for this.
1) The CR system actually says in the Gamemastering section that an "average" fight is CR = APL vs 4 players. It's a fight, and not much else. Challenging is generally CR = APL +1, hard is +2, and epic is +3.
2) The biggest reason is it - and most everything else you mention - are getting focus-fired down. They're outnumbered. This is part of the "action economy" which is a simple concept - more actions win.
I would have actually said it would be a small miracle if the owlbear survived more than 1 round with the group, since at most it might down one of the squishier party members on its turn, but should be dead by turn 2 (after everyone else goes).
I don't really like running 1 vs party encounters because such encounters are very unforgiving on both players and GMs (either the monster is too hard to beat due to special abilities or pure brute strength, or the monster falls to easily and becomes an XP pinata).
The gelatinous cube was in a previous session with everybody. They spotted it and got off a surprise round. The wizard zapped it with 2 scorching rays and the alchemist got it with 2 bombs before it got a chance to move. Dead in a round.
Same thing here.
Ok, try this instead:
Get some fairly low CR creatures (I like humanoids) who make sense to be together (another reason I like humanoids), maybe a few pets, and so forth. Multiple weak opponents + tactics = harder and more interesting fight than 1 big guy.
Say you have some orc warriors (these guys are CR 1/3 in the Bestiary). They have a 17 strength, and a +1 BAB (+4 hit by default) and they have Weapon Focus (+1 hit), and 6 hp. Gear them with glaives instead of falchions (1d10+3 damage, reach weapon). Now drop a couple orc adepts (they'll have 11 wisdom and 14 strength) into the mix with longspears (1d8+str, reach weapon) who can cast Bless (+1 atk and saves vs Fear). Finally, arm all the orcs with Slings (they're free, weightless, and deal 1d4 + strength damage as a ranged attack).
We decide we want an "epic" encounter. So that's APL+3 on the XP chart, so we have 3,200 XP worth of creatures and such to add to the encounter. Each of the orcs is worth 135, so you can go ahead and drop 26 orcs into the encounter (say 20 warriors and 6 adepts) and still be around the recommended XP budget.
Now the party must contend with 10 enemies at once. This means it becomes more difficult to focus-fire enemies down; because you have to spread out your attacks. The reach weapons make it incredibly easy for the orcs to gain flanking bonuses (+2 attack), and at least one adept should open the round with BLESS (lasts 10 rounds) to give everyone a +1 bonus to attack rolls. This leaves you with orcs with the following attack routine: Glaive +6 (1d10+3) with a 10ft reach. They'll hit AC 22 on a roll of 16 or higher (14 or higher if flanking), and after the adepts have used their spell, they move in (wearing studded leather) and attempt to flank and aid another (up to a +4 bonus to help the warriors hit them).
If you want to be really nasty, include a CL 1 potion of Enlarge Person (10 rounds, 50gp) on the orc's equipment. Have them all quaff the potion during the first round (or the surprise round if possible). This will give them all a 20ft reach and 2d8+6 points of damage with their weapons. 20ft of reach is more reach than most of your party has movement speed in their armors; and if you get surrounded by these orcs, one wrong move can provoke a ton of high damage opportunity attacks.
The major difference here is the orcs can gang-up on the party like the party gangs up on their enemies; going after one at a time. They deal solid damage, but the aid-another, flanking, and so forth really makes it come together. Likewise, even if the party handily defeats them, it will feel more epic because it wasn't a 1-shot round.
PS - The slings? That's so they can pepper opponents with 1d4+3 strength damage bullets from up to 50ft away. Excellent if the orcs decide to ambush from a distance, behind cover (such as trees), or try to disrupt spellcasters.
PPS - I don't recommend making a habit of it too much, but the reach weapons can let orcs preform tricks like sundering much more effectively. If a group of orcs surrounds the spellcaster and they try to use their wand; the orcs are within their right to attempt to sunder or disarm the caster's wand or spell components (assuming they don't just bash the caster with their glaives); but if the caster has a high AC bonus (say tons of buffs), preventing their spells can pester greatly.
EDIT: One more thing. Since you're party is 50% larger than the expected party, you should increase the XP budget by about 50% as well; so the aforementioned 26 orcs should instead have about 40 CR 1/3 orcs, around 34 warriors and 6 adepts.
As a comparison, in my 'Rise with a Difference' RotR game, I have seven PCs. This is not a problem, I just beefed up the first three encounters by adding in goblins. Adding a few extra goblins (especially goblin archers) evened up the difference nicely, without making the enemy too tough. I'll need to follow a similar pattern to this all the way through the game, but it's no big deal because I already have the stats for the monsters.
|
ciretose wrote:Speaking of which, she just killed three out of four characters last Friday. The only survivor was a very, very lucky wizard.If you run as written, it works fine. Hell, most of the AP's have high TPK risks (Damn you Xanesha from RoTRL!)
I ended up modifying it so she appeared later with her sister in the next book. Also I was combining parts of RoTRL and CoCT and had her make the delivery to Korvosa herself on the way.
But I'm going off topic...love that AP.
|
|
Say for example 6 advanced trolls against 7 6th level characters. Now the module is for 10th level characters and my characters are (were) 6th level.
They are not leveling as quickly or getting the treasure as quickly as they would if there were 4 characters. I thought this would balance out.
However, everyone is much more effective due to the number of party members. Two clerics using channel energy can erase any damage I can inflict on the party in one round. The rogue never has difficulty creating a flank.
It's not as if simply adding more monsters takes away these advantages.
The monsters that seem to be appropriate challenges (per the rules) hit about 50% of the time. They seem to average around 12 points of damage per round to the character they are fighting. The clerics heal that instantly.
The characters deal much more damage and hit much more frequently and have more options to regain hp than any monsters. When trying to run higher level opponents, I'm running into scaling difficulties such as Damage Reduction(such as DR 15/Good, meaning that no one can hit and damage the monsters).
We haven't talked about it, but I think that Channel Energy may be a primary culprit in why I can't challenge the party. I was a very challenging DM in 3.5 (even running larger groups). Cure spells were a very limited resource in 3.5 and were not as effective.
[For example in a party of 7 characters, a 3.5 6th level cleric could cast a Cure Serious Wounds and restore an average of 19 hp to one character in a round; a PF 6th level cleric can use channel energy and restore an average of 10 hp - which ends up being 70 hp per round. With two clerics you can see why this is a problem.]
Do both of the clerics have selective channeling so they aren't also healing all the monsters? And if so, how many can they exclude.
|
|
Do both of the clerics have selective channeling so they aren't also healing all the monsters? And if so, how many can they exclude.Say for example 6 advanced trolls against 7 6th level characters. Now the module is for 10th level characters and my characters are (were) 6th level.
They are not leveling as quickly or getting the treasure as quickly as they would if there were 4 characters. I thought this would balance out.
However, everyone is much more effective due to the number of party members. Two clerics using channel energy can erase any damage I can inflict on the party in one round. The rogue never has difficulty creating a flank.
It's not as if simply adding more monsters takes away these advantages.
The monsters that seem to be appropriate challenges (per the rules) hit about 50% of the time. They seem to average around 12 points of damage per round to the character they are fighting. The clerics heal that instantly.
The characters deal much more damage and hit much more frequently and have more options to regain hp than any monsters. When trying to run higher level opponents, I'm running into scaling difficulties such as Damage Reduction(such as DR 15/Good, meaning that no one can hit and damage the monsters).
We haven't talked about it, but I think that Channel Energy may be a primary culprit in why I can't challenge the party. I was a very challenging DM in 3.5 (even running larger groups). Cure spells were a very limited resource in 3.5 and were not as effective.
[For example in a party of 7 characters, a 3.5 6th level cleric could cast a Cure Serious Wounds and restore an average of 19 hp to one character in a round; a PF 6th level cleric can use channel energy and restore an average of 10 hp - which ends up being 70 hp per round. With two clerics you can see why this is a problem.]
Not to mention the question of their Charisma in general, since it's only 3X a Day + your Charisma modifier, and only a 30 ft radius.
And if everyone is in a 30 ft radius, they are also perfectly bunched for area effect spells.
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but most of the examples you use always use the term "monsters" (trolls, shadows, etc).
How about throwing some opponents with class levels and nifty abilities and feats just like the PCs have? They have 2 clerics in their group, so throw a group of fanatical cabalists led by 2 evil clerics at them. Or a couple of hidden rogues lying in ambush while their barbarian cohorts attack the group head-on (and raging)?
Maybe you've done all this but if not, it might be time to really test them with some opponents that toss their 'tricks' right back at them.
Reading just the 1st post, I saw the problems already. First off, it was 6 characters, not the average 4. Next, with half of them at such high AC, you need more bruisers.
My shadow would've taken down at least one of them. First, they're incorporeal. I always have my incorporeals hide behind a wall or under the ground and reach out. This means the PCs have to ready an action to attack, and the incorporeal still gets cover bonus to AC. I am not sure, but this also means the incorporeal has a 50% miss chance since he can't see the opponent (but can sense who is adjacent to the object they're occupying I think). This is why you see some incorporeals given Blind Fight as a feat. Since it can fly, Flyby Attack is another great option. Swoop down and touch and move on. It would provoke an AoO probably, but at least it reduces the melee down to ranged only.
The shadow would've been intelligent enough to target the heavily armored ones. That Strength damage would decrease their encumberance limit. I've Ray of Enfeebled a full plate wearer once, their Strength dropped so low they were completely unable to move, I think only a 5 ft. square each round as a full-round action. And taking the full plate off takes minutes. So you can count on that guy being out the fight for good. It can move on to the others.
Even after the encounter, that CR 3 shadow just caused your members to use up some valuable resources. Healing for the Strength damage, spells being cast to make weapons magical, and force magic to take it down. It would've done a decent job. This is moot, though, if they're able to easily rest afterwards, but I am assuming they were facing one encounter after the next. Two of them would've made for a much more challenging encounter.
It's all about how well you know your character's limits and how well you know your monsters' strengths.
*snip*
Most definitely. Shadows are mean. I once ran a pickup game for a group of strangers as a favor to a friend. I generated some encounters quickly, and for this APL 14 group, including a light encounter including 16 shadows (roughly APL-2 encounter). There was a player who most of the others griped about being "OP", and that player commented several times at being a master of the game.
Three shadows later in the first round, the AC 10 (at 14th level? Seriously!?) strength 9 super optimized caster bit the dust, adding the 17th shadow to the encounter. First combat, PC down.
Now, according to Pathfinder, this was a very easy encounter (in fact, it's below easy, which is APL-1). An average encounter of shadows would have been about 48; but I just wanted them to welcome the group to the tower. Humorously, the more defensively minded members of the party (the ones who invested in armor, and in this case a scroll or two of Death Ward were pretty much immune to the shadows and dispatched them handily.
If you really want to drive someone bonkers, shadows with advanced HD, the advanced template, or class levels can be super nasty. A shadow with warrior, or sorcerer levels tends to be pretty scary (warrior results in a high HP / attack bonus shadow, while sorcerer results in high HP (due to charisma) and spellcasting shadow).
Say for example 6 advanced trolls against 7 6th level characters. Now the module is for 10th level characters and my characters are (were) 6th level.
They are not leveling as quickly or getting the treasure as quickly as they would if there were 4 characters. I thought this would balance out.
However, everyone is much more effective due to the number of party members. Two clerics using channel energy can erase any damage I can inflict on the party in one round. The rogue never has difficulty creating a flank.
It's not as if simply adding more monsters takes away these advantages.
The monsters that seem to be appropriate challenges (per the rules) hit about 50% of the time. They seem to average around 12 points of damage per round to the character they are fighting. The clerics heal that instantly.
The characters deal much more damage and hit much more frequently and have more options to regain hp than any monsters. When trying to run higher level opponents, I'm running into scaling difficulties such as Damage Reduction(such as DR 15/Good, meaning that no one can hit and damage the monsters).
We haven't talked about it, but I think that Channel Energy may be a primary culprit in why I can't challenge the party. I was a very challenging DM in 3.5 (even running larger groups). Cure spells were a very limited resource in 3.5 and were not as effective.
[For example in a party of 7 characters, a 3.5 6th level cleric could cast a Cure Serious Wounds and restore an average of 19 hp to one character in a round; a PF 6th level cleric can use channel energy and restore an average of 10 hp - which ends up being 70 hp per round. With two clerics you can see why this is a problem.]
Not all monsters of an equal CR are equally effective against all parties. You may have to select monsters in combinations that will make them work harder.
A succubus trying to charm/dominate party members, while her meat shields are harrassing the party might work. Better yet use two succubus.
6 advanced trolls gives me 6 CR 6's to work with.
Exchange time
1 advanced succubus(CR 8)-charm monster DC 24, Dominate DC 25
1 CR takes up 2 CR 6 slots
For the 4 remaining CR 6 slots
Use Babau's. They get sneak attack if they flank. They can dispel magic, and if they get hit with weapons the fighters might not have weapons anymore.
Shadows are *barely* intelligent. A 6 Int means they get the game minimum skill points per hit die, and only on a technicality - they're morons.
Very few creatures swing blindly at something hoping to hit it before they get hit back. I would hardly say some one is GMing a shadow 'wrong' if they don't attack from out of the ceiling/floor/walls/other solid objects. Ironically, that they are morons means that I can see a few shadows out of a large group flailing away at the closest creature they can perceive doing a silent film "slap fight".
^_^ You're right on the money about death ward of course. If a mid-level+ group have not made some kind of contingency arrangement as regards having at least, say, a scroll with (party roster) death wards scribed on it, they're hosed any way.
Well, unless they've never encountered negative energy critters before. Then I can definitely understand not having it.
Shadows are *barely* intelligent. A 6 Int means they get the game minimum skill points per hit die, and only on a technicality - they're morons.
Very few creatures swing blindly at something hoping to hit it before they get hit back. I would hardly say some one is GMing a shadow 'wrong' if they don't attack from out of the ceiling/floor/walls/other solid objects. Ironically, that they are morons means that I can see a few shadows out of a large group flailing away at the closest creature they can perceive doing a silent film "slap fight".
^_^ You're right on the money about death ward of course. If a mid-level+ group have not made some kind of contingency arrangement as regards having at least, say, a scroll with (party roster) death wards scribed on it, they're hosed any way.
Well, unless they've never encountered negative energy critters before. Then I can definitely understand not having it.
Incorporeal creatures can sense nearby lifeforms. They also attack as a touch attack, so hitting is no problem.
You have a shadow surface and its 19 HP will become 0 in a tenth of a turn. You have it stay right there and its 50%/25% miss chance will be more than offset by complete immunity to full attacks (by having to ready), most good spells (by being incorporeal undead) and if they aren't experienced players the initial shock factor.
If a 14th level party has never encountered negative energy critters, I question how they got to 14th level. Undead are one of the most common foe types in the MM, and necromancers are a common choice of villain. Now I am aware the game started at level 14, instead of playing to that point. But you should still think these things through, and that group should not have played level 14 if they didn't understand this wasn't E6 over 20 levels.
Yes, Shadows are about as intelligent as a mildly retarded human. That's still good enough to hide in something close to their target and attack them repeatedly. But I was...
I do see where the SQ gives the ability to sense adjacent creatures - an excellent point. It is an ability that cuts both ways however - the player characters can maneuver away from where they saw the limbs flailing out of the solid surface, forcing the critters (potentially) to move into terrain more of the players' choosing.
^_^ Whether or not the players think to maneuver in such a fashion is another matter.
Now, wraiths get lifesense, making them arguably the nastiest hit-n-run of the incorporeal creatures ...
They may attack as a touch attack, but mage armor is effective against them. So there is no reason for any wizard to have an AC lower than 14 vs. shadows. None. At. All.
And easily at least an 18, more often I suspect that goes to 20+.
GP, item crafting feats and GM permitting, wizardly types at the highest level range are potentially packing +8 bracers, a shield spell and at least a 14 Dex. I would probably guesstimate a more typical Dex of about 20 for a wizard, depending on ability score generation method used.
So, say an incorporeal touch AC of ... oh, 20 - 27 as a rule of thumb? Not bad.
I dispute that assessment of the Shield spell. Especially for its many uses that come into their own once you can quicken it. Arcane archers/tricksters, eldritch knights, magus, sorcerors and wizards - even rogues that pick it up via the major magic talent - can make use of the +4 incorporeal touch AC bonus it provides. It stops magic missiles completely - perhaps not the greatest concern, but an infinite defense while up nonetheless.
I dispute that assessment of the Shield spell. Especially for its many uses that come into their own once you can quicken it. Arcane archers/tricksters, eldritch knights, magus, sorcerors and wizards - even rogues that pick it up via the major magic talent - can make use of the +4 incorporeal touch AC bonus it provides. It stops magic missiles completely - perhaps not the greatest concern, but an infinite defense while up nonetheless.A 5th level slot, on the off chance you encounter large numbers of Magic Missiles today? Small numbers are completely ignorable, and so is +4 touch AC vs any incorporeal undead other than the weakest.
Or you cast it on the off chance you'll encounter large numbers of Magic Missiles in the next 14 minutes? It's not some general purpose buff like True Seeing or Death Ward that works against many different and dangerous things such that you probably should cast it ahead of time if you have any reason to believe it might help. It's something that only helps on the off chance you run into an encounter in which you can be subjected to 300 Magic Missiles in a single round. And it's more likely you will deal with that particular poorly designed encounter by winning initiative and killing them all. If you don't, your entire party dies.
Yes, that actually happens in a Paizo adventure path. I won't say which one. Obviously it is an extreme edge case.
300 magic missiles? O.o I have all of the Adventure Paths and don't recall that set up in any of them.
Still, for a spell that lasts minutes & provides 4 extra AC against anything but touch attacks - mind that it works against a spectral hand - it is pretty valuable for two-handed weapon wielders, archers/other projectile weapon attackers, sneak attackers and all the other characters that are not proficient with shields but can use the AC bump.
Some times 4 points of AC makes the difference between critt'd or not critt'd. Depending on the foe, it makes no difference on the first or even second attack - but it sure adds up on the third, fourth and fifth (iterative weapon attacks).
Maybe it's Isaac's Missile Storm. Which I think only exists in the video games, though maybe the Forgotten Realms books actually have it, I forget.
Still, for a spell that lasts minutes & provides 4 extra AC against anything but touch attacks - mind that it works against a spectral hand - it is pretty valuable for two-handed weapon wielders, archers/other projectile weapon attackers, sneak attackers and all the other characters that are not proficient with shields but can use the AC bump.
Sure, but keep in mind that shield isn't a spell you can cast on other people. (Yes, there's scrolls/UMD, etc.)
Sure, but keep in mind that shield isn't a spell you can cast on other people. (Yes, there's scrolls/UMD, etc.)
Still, for a spell that lasts minutes & provides 4 extra AC against anything but touch attacks - mind that it works against a spectral hand - it is pretty valuable for two-handed weapon wielders, archers/other projectile weapon attackers, sneak attackers and all the other characters that are not proficient with shields but can use the AC bump.
Yep, 100%.
That's why I quoted for arcane archers, arcane tricksters, eldritch knights, rogues and sorc/wizards. I shudder to think of my players' EK when she fully spells up before wading into my poor bad guys ...
I would note that Intelligence 3 is the intelligence needed to be sentient rational decisions and have an alignment based on choice, while shadows also have above average wisdom and charisma scores. Intelligence is defined as a character's ability to learn and reason, wisdom as rationality, common sense, awareness, and intuition, and charisma as force of personality, ability to lead, and so forth.
Shadows are far better off than a "retarded human" as someone said. At worst, they are slow learners (hence skill point penalty), but are exceptionally perceptive and intuitive. Less book smart, more application smart. Incidentally, while it says Intelligence generally governs reasoning, having a Wisdom of 0 means you cannot have a rational thought.
If shadows had Int, Wis, and Cha 6, sure, I'd say they were really moronic. Mentally inept to a fault, but that's hardly the case. In fact, they are around the same intelligence as Orcs, who can maintain functioning nomadic tribes and societies whom stage ambushes, and military raids, and while they don't put much stock in concepts like Honor, they understand it (paraphrased from the Pathfinder Reference Document).
Essentially, any creature with an intelligence score of 3 or higher should unquestionably be able to come up with at least basic strategies and tactics for doing their things. Many animals, including wolves and chimpanzees whom have an intelligence of 2 have pack strategies, organized group mauling of enemies, and can even recognize and attack specific locations on their targets (chimpanzees go for your face, fingers, and genitals specifically, those sick bastards). Tigers rarely attack prey if they can't ambush them from behind (leading many people in India to wear masks on the backs of their heads to confuse tigers who are man-hunters). Some animals even form relationships with other animals when it mutually benefits them. There are observations noting flocks of ravens that follow wolves around and then share kills alongside the wolves, without the wolves eating them, and it's theorized that the ravens may lead wolves to food in some cases, creating a symbiotic relationship.
The idea that something of a sentient level intelligence that can choose right from wrong, should not be capable of using its natural abilities against its enemies just astounds me.
About Armor Class, Mage Armor, and Shield
I agree with Lyrax about the AC thing. She (the character) was level 14, a full-caster, and possessed the ability to either craft items or have them crafted for her. The party had been fighting undead through most of the last story arch and it had led up to this point.
She entered the tower, through the roof, like the other party members did, with no defensive spells up - not even a concealment or miss-chance spell or item active. She figured she would just stay away from everything, I guess. Shadows emerged from the floor during the surprise round and attacked her and the other players, dropping her in 3 hits. The shadows then continued to pester the players a bit, but eventually gave up 'cause the Paladin and Cleric in the group just casted Death Ward a couple of times. And yes, being inside the floors and walls is just mean. :D
As to Shield...that spell is awesome. Magic Missile is one of the best 1st level spells you can have, and it still incredibly useful even at 9th level against a target that doesn't have Shield active. While its damage potential wanes with levels (it's about 17.5 average damage at 9th level, which is similar to a 5d6 fireball), it's nearly impossible to avoid. It's also a level 1 spell with the direct damage qualities of a 5d6 fireball with no resistances or saving throws (higher minimum damage too), so it's ripe for meta-magic.
A readied swift action magic missile is like saying "Sorry, you can't cast that today" when targeting a spellcaster and you don't even have to waste your normal actions to do it. In game terms, a quickened magic missile is like having a near-immediate action to inflict about 17.5 damage on a target over 5 hits, which forces the following Concentration checks: 13.5, 17, 20.5, 24, 27.5 + spell level.
Maxmized it would be: 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 + spell level.
Ready the spell and the quickened version, and you get 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 + spell level from a combination of 10 maxed missiles hitting you while casting your spell. You will not cast it, I swear this to you! :P
Magic Missile is like the best "I'll let you finish but..." counterspell in the game, but is rendered useless by Shield (so you gotta bring the Shield down before you can use this strategy). Tends to eat non-shielded casters for breakfast though.
...I dispute that assessment of the Shield spell. Especially for its many uses that come into their own once you can quicken it. Arcane archers/tricksters, eldritch knights, magus, sorcerors and wizards - even rogues that pick it up via the major magic talent - can make use of the +4 incorporeal touch AC bonus it provides. It stops magic missiles completely - perhaps not the greatest concern, but an infinite defense while up nonetheless.A 5th level slot, on the off chance you encounter large numbers of Magic Missiles today? Small numbers are completely ignorable, and so is +4 touch AC vs any incorporeal undead other than the weakest.
Or you cast it on the off chance you'll encounter large numbers of Magic Missiles in the next 14 minutes? It's not some general purpose buff like True Seeing or Death Ward that works against many different and dangerous things such that you probably should cast it ahead of time if you have any reason to believe it might help. It's something that only helps on the off chance you run into an encounter in which you can be subjected to 300 Magic Missiles in a single round. And it's more likely you will deal with that particular poorly designed encounter by winning initiative and killing them all. If you don't, your entire party dies.
Yes, that actually happens in a Paizo adventure path. I won't say which one. Obviously it is an extreme edge case.
300 magic missiles? O.o I have all of the Adventure Paths and don't recall that set up in any of them.
Still, for a spell that lasts minutes & provides 4 extra AC against anything but touch attacks - mind that it works against a spectral hand - it is pretty valuable for two-handed weapon wielders, archers/other projectile weapon attackers, sneak attackers and all the other characters that are not proficient with shields but can use the AC bump.
Some times 4 points of AC makes the difference between critt'd or not critt'd.
As soon as I heard about the magic missles I knew what the creature was. They appear in two AP's.
spellweavers
*snip*
This here is an excellent example of why throwing higher CR enemies at the party in hopes of brute-forcing is a bad idea most of the time. Better to use multiple equal or lower CR opponents to spice up your combats. It literally makes it impossible for someone to one-shot the encounter with a save or die spell like Flesh to Stone, and it also avoids the problems of spells like Blasphemy creating a 1 round TPK.
Welcome to pathfinder, where there is no attrition, everyone has mod + 3 uses of retarded sick abilities and partys fight dbl there cr
That's some grade-A trolling right there.
I haven't seen a group of 10th+ fight (and win) against CR 20+ ... yet. ;)
|
|
Welcome to pathfinder, where there is no attrition, everyone has mod + 3 uses of retarded sick abilities and partys fight dbl there crThat's some grade-A trolling right there.
Nah, to obvious.
I am still betting he wasn't running channel energy properly based on how he described the Clerics healing everyone every round.
Without selective channel, you heal the enemies as well. Even then you can only exclude up to your charisma modifier. Plus it's only 30 ft radius setting everyone up for an area attack. Plus it is only 3X a day plus your Charisma without additional feats.
First time I read it I thought it was hax, then I realized if you use it in combat you also heal the bad guys.
First time I read it I thought it was hax, then I realized if you use it in combat you also heal the bad guys.
Yeah, I find that having a channel-happy cleric in one of my games forces us to be more aware of which enemies are down and which are actually dead. It's gone wrong a few times and that's different and fun.
Why all that disussion when the chars are not known?
And sending bruisers against a AC upped party is bad anyway.
What about 2 aboleths, cr 9 encounter. Good chance for surpise round for aboleths with illusion spells at will. Then 2 dominate monster with dc 22 at the mean looking(and low will) fighter and the encounter gets interesting.
What about dracolisks, 2 are cr 9. The clerics can exclude them only when accepting a chance to be "stoned". And when all party is at least partially averting eyes, the lisks have concealment and can hide - +13 stealth vs perception of lev 6 party is good chance. Then both of them flank the weakest guy. (and choose a dragon type with cone shaped breath)
Vampire can dominate and web with dc 20 and 22, causing lot of trouble for lev 6 party.
CR 8-9 would be the normal encounter level for 7 6th level party with high stats. And i guess this 3 encounters should be interesting for them.
An epic encounter would be CR 11, so a Hezrou. Which teleports in, cast blasphemy and the entire party is guranteed paralyze for 1 round (wlll dc 21, if fail paralyze for minutes), so entire party prone and 3-5 chars paralyzed longer.
What exactly is the problem to have interesting encounters?
When a single monster is that far above APL the party is normally toast even if there are a lot of them. Where the party is large it is better to treat them as two separate parties when designing encounters.
By the numbers 20 CR 1 creatures are probably at least a CR 10, but in effect they are not that dangerous. A level 6 party could handle them.
Seeing as how they like to min max and wear the heavy armor, I would teach them that the heaviest armor is not always the best. Have the battle at the end of a days travel and give them a fatigue penalty for wearing that heavy armor. Encounter them when they're in camp (cant wear that armor 24/7). Monsters aren't hitting, who's to say that gobo isn't a level 5 fighter wearing the same armor your players love so much. Put them on a boat and bull rush one off the side (double armor penalties for swimming). Magic, Magic, Magic. Charm the warrior and have him do your dirty work for you. Then my personal favorite, grappling attack them with many small creatures. Don't forget, you are the creator of your world, the books are just a guide.
As for Magic Missile: Wraithstrike is correct, Ashiel is not.
Back up your words big-boy. The best spells vs casting are generally ones that inflict damage due to the Pathfinder revisions to Concentration; and unlike Lightning Bolt, there is no way to evade, reduce, or resist Magic Missile except via Shield, Spell Resistance, or one of those amulets that eat magic missile damage, a specific Iuon Stone, or Mantles (but Heighten can avoid that).
Every time you take damage during the casting, you have to make a concentration check equal to 10 + damage taken while casting. This means damage is cumulative, so if you are shot with 3 arrows, each for 4 damage, then you must make three Concentration checks, which are progressively harder (because each check is DC 10 + damage dealt while casting, not by the attack), so the base DCs are 14, 18, 22.
So explain to me where I'm wrong. Magic Missile fires 5 missiles which each deal 1d4+1 damage (or 5 maximized). If targeting a caster while he's casting Gate (9th level spell) he would have to make five consecutive concentration checks at DC 24, 29, 34, 39, 44. If the caster had readied another magic missile spell (as a quickened action, maximized) it would then hit for another 25 damage, and the DCs 49, 54, 59, 64, 69.
Seeing as how they like to min max and wear the heavy armor, I would teach them that the heaviest armor is not always the best. Have the battle at the end of a days travel and give them a fatigue penalty for wearing that heavy armor. Encounter them when they're in camp (cant wear that armor 24/7). Monsters aren't hitting, who's to say that gobo isn't a level 5 fighter wearing the same armor your players love so much. Put them on a boat and bull rush one off the side (double armor penalties for swimming). Magic, Magic, Magic. Charm the warrior and have him do your dirty work for you. Then my personal favorite, grappling attack them with many small creatures. Don't forget, you are the creator of your world, the books are just a guide.
A lot of this sounds like punishing them for being good players, which I think is a bad idea. Seriously, he has players who bother to get oils of magic weapon for rainy days, and seem to be focusing more on being well-rounded survivalists than super-destruction damage dealers. This should be encouraged, not punished.
I have no problem with enemies attempting to hurl them into hazards (the water is a good idea), but setting up encounters specifically to foil your party is akin to choosing only creatures immune to fire because the party's sorcerer picked Fireball last level. As a GM, I say it's cowardly.
There are plenty of fun ways to build encounters without constantly trying to punish players for trying to play well.
The shadow was killed by a combination of Spiritual Weapon (force damage - like a magic missile - so no miss chance) and a big greataxe strike.
Doing force damage does not mean the spell automatically hits.