I don't recall reading anyone mentioning the "Aid Another" action in this thread. 4 hobgoblins "aiding" their commander (even 2 hobgoblins aiding a 3rd) has a better chance of hitting than if they each try to hit the PCs by themselves.
It's also been said numerous times, you can't stick 1 powerful guy in front of 4-6 PCs and expect them to not walk all over him. I had a one-shot encounter I wanted to try out for a (sort of) custom creation, 4 20th level party members vs 1 CR 25 monster. My players absolutely destroyed the thing by the end of the 3rd or 4th round with barely a scratch to themselves.
Aid Another only raises the expected hit rate against AC 22 if the opponents have +2 or +1 to hit (after including bonuses for flanking with the aid partner), which is unlikely. However, if the one aiding is significantly weaker in damage and the enemies attack only once per round, it can be quite useful.
Consider a scenario where these PCs encounter an evil sorceress/bard and her warrior bodyguard, plus seven or so charmed villagers (first level commoners with 11 11 11 10 10 10). If the bodyguard and villagers can surround a PC, that can nasty fast
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Let's see if I can provide some more information.
The shadow was killed by a combination of Spiritual Weapon (force damage - like a magic missile - so no miss chance) and a big greataxe strike. The axe was coated with a Magic Weapon oil, and the fighter succeeded on his miss chance roll for attacking incorporeal.
In truth, more than one shadow would have probably been more appropriate, even though the CR wouldn't indicate that.
The characters were created with I think 25 point buy for slightly better powered characters than the base 20. I wanted the characters to be powerful enough to handle threats at low-levels; apparently they are too effective.
The party formation is as follows:
Dwarven Fighter (High Strength, High Constitution) using a great axe (weapon focus, weapon specialization); with power attack, I think he deals 1d12+9 damage. He is in full plate armor and has an AC of 21, I think (from Dex adjustment).
Human Cleric using longsword in full plate with a heavy shield; I think his AC is 22.
Human Paladin using longsword in full plate with a heavy shield; I think her AC is 22.
Wizard (evoker) has a Wand of Scorching Ray (not fully charged) and is eating up the charges in every encounter. Until he is out, he is going to be a canon.
Human Cleric using a net in chain shirt. His AC is 18. He doesn't deal lethal damage, so he isn't overpowering. (If anything, he's a little underpowered compared to the others - but that's the way the player likes it.)
Dwarven Alchemist (from the Advanced Playtest). His AC is around 16. He uses splash weapon attacks and does around 5 points of damage to every opponent within 10 feet of his attack even if he misses. (I don't have a problem challenging this guy either, like the human cleric with the chain shirt.)
The most recent session we were down 2 players (the paladin and alchemist). Therefore we had the dwarven fighter, human wizard, human cleric (battle cleric), and human cleric (not combat centric).
The fight with the owlbear was with...
i don't knwo what everyone else had said
i just think you have:
a) an efficient group which use tactics and surprise to their advantage
b) a group with good rolls and dm with bad roles...
if things have gone the other weay around more than one character would have died...
lady luck tends to be a piss off sometimes :P
You have lots of armor using characters. I have 2 words for you.
RUST MONSTERS.
Also, you got a large party (6 players) I believe the CR system is based on 4 players.
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Sorry, not trying to be a troll (maybe an ettin?)
I'm just frustrated that it seems that most of our problems are due to following the creation rules in the book and that the rule book doesn't offer any concrete suggestions for addressing these issues.
Some of my players balked over the proposed changes (dropping ability scores from 20 point buy to 15; getting rid of full plate).
I'm trying to make a viable system that will work for me. Personally, I just don't have the time to personally construct NPCs to challenge the group with inventive encounters all the time. THAT was supposed to be the reason of spending money to purchase adventures.
So the issue is - if my existing adventures are no good with Pathfinder, what is the most economic solution? Create new adventures from scratch for Pathfinder? Purchase an expensive AP subscription? Or go back to 3.5 where the characters are better balanced to face the challenges in 3.5 ed. adventures?
I'm not anti-Pathfinder. If I hated Pathfinder why would I have even gone to the trouble of posting here? It so happens that my group LOVES Pathfinder (except for one guy who would prefer 4e).
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
It sounds to me that then you need a course correction. If your players are unwilling to part with thier gear, bump the CRs higher, and drop the treasure untill you get back to normal.
As for a party size, you need to adjust for that, and it's not hard.
Two clerics isn't a problem, not counting one of your clerics into the averiage party level is a big problem.
But by and large it doesn't matter at all if your not willing to put work into your game.
You put yourself into the hole, there are plenty of penty of people here who have offered you help. Time to stop complaining about the system and start using your tools effectively.
I've watched this go on long enough. Now, I'm tellin'!
Some of my players balked over the proposed changes (dropping ability scores from 20 point buy to 15; getting rid of full plate).
I would balk at that too.
I would grumble about Retconning the ability scores in mid-campaign, but I could accept that. But I would vehemently disagree with ditching perfectly valid armor.
I'm trying to make a viable system that will work for me. Personally, I just don't have the time to personally construct NPCs to challenge the group with inventive encounters all the time. THAT was supposed to be the reason of spending money to purchase adventures.
But you are a professionally published adventure writer. You must know that you won't find an adventure published for 6 PCs. You must know that you should expect some upgrading of 3.5 material to become Pathfinder compatible. And you must know that even the best pre-gen published adventure will have varying challenge levels within their encounters.
All of which means that you cannot expect to challenge your current group playing unmodified 3.x pre-gens. It's just not possible.
So the issue is - if my existing adventures are no good with Pathfinder, what is the most economic solution? Create new adventures from scratch for Pathfinder?
That's free, but time-consuming.
Purchase an expensive AP subscription?
It won't solve your problem. Not by half. You'll spend that money and those APs will still be written for a group of 4 PCs. You'll still have to modify every encounter to make them challenging.
Or go back to 3.5 where the characters are better balanced to face the challenges in 3.5 ed. adventures?
That won't work either. You'll solve the minor problem that your 3.5 pre-gen adventures will be the right power level for 3.5 characters, but your major problem that you have 6 PCs instead of 4 will still require extensife modification.
I'm not anti-Pathfinder. If I hated Pathfinder why would I have even gone to the trouble of posting here? It so happens that my group LOVES Pathfinder (except for one guy who would prefer 4e).
That's good to know.
First, give that one guy a big Atomic Melvin for me.
Second, enjoy Pathfinder. It's great. Nobody I game with has any desire to go back to 3.5 or to even crack the spine of 4e. You all just need to get your head around these two points:
1. Pre-gens need lots of modification to challenge 6 PCs. Period. Boot two of your players and things will go smooter. Or just accept that modification is required.
2. Even with modification, your melee-optimized group will still steamroll simple melee brute encounters. Spice it up with other stuff, or use bigger or more brutes, or just accept that this group is supposed to handle those encounters easily.
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
So don't ask them to. YOU fix it. You're the one who invited two more players. You're the one who let your players believe you could handle it. So handle it.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
Then trade DM duties with someone else.
In my current group of 6, we have 3 experienced DMs and one more who wants to begin DMing. We have 3 campaigns ongoing, and when we finish a segment at a good stopping point, we rotate to one of the other DMs for a while. It lets us each take a break, and also to prepare stuff for when we resume DMing in a few months - slowly, over time, a little bit each week, preparing tons of material at a leisurely pace.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
Good. I was sarcastic earlier when I suggested it. But seriously, the DM-rotation thing really helps.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
Kill one. ;)
Just being sarcastic again.
Two clerics isn't really a problem, especially since one of them is a melee battle-cleric. So just deal with it. Beef up the encounters because you MUST, and everything will work out fine.
And if that really is more commitment than you are prepared to deal with, then tell your players that you just don't have the time/energy/dedication/whatever to DM this group and ask one of them to take over.
If it really comes to that, then you're not being fair to yourself by killing yourself over a game, nor to them by being a lame DM throwing boring encounters at them. It's unfair to all of you, and you'll all have more fun if someone else with more time/energy/dedication/whatever steps up and takes over DMing.
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
1) They got their gear and ability score points fair and square. You've already noted they're fine with wealth by level. You used 20-point buy IIRC, making somewhat stronger characters. I understand that the players don't want to lose stuff they received fairly. So no go on option 1.
2) You are unable to spend a lot of time creating interesting/varied/challenging encounters. Time constraints happen to everyone, if you didn't have them you might be writing your own adventures. Unwilling is another matter.3) 6 players is not too many. Look at how many other people deal with in their games. Too many is a value equal to what you feel comfortable with as a GM.
4) Two players created clerics fair and square. Asking them to change characters is like asking to remove equipment or ability points. No go here either.
You mention that many of your problems are due to following creation rules in the book. If you had, you might well have noticed the rules (or lack thereof) for parties over 4 in size. These things happen.
Now for a simple solution that others have mentioned.
Every encounter, as written, isn't strong enough for a party that matches their current level. CR 4 monsters won't stack up alone. All right. So add monsters. Add more of the same monsters. Don't futz with treasure that much; you've got plenty of characters, you can add in more later. Make sure for variety you change up once in a while. Instead of adding a second hill giant, maybe add 2 trolls. Instead of another dragon of the same size, add a couple smaller ones.
The system will work fine. It can accomodate more or less numbers of players just fine. Same with ability scores under different point buy values. Equipment gets a little tougher at higher levels admittedly.
Here's one last suggestion, and it's not one I offer lightly or with ill intent.
This party may benefit most from a GM who can find the time to alter adventures or write their own adventures tailored to them. Many suggestions others have made upthread would then work quite well. It's not the suggestion most people want to hear, but it may work out for the best. As it is, the only other option is to run higher-level adventures and adjust the party's average level upward or the monster's CR downward to account for their strength, which might work or might get them all killed when a critter with nasty special attacks lays into them.
Edit: Ninja'd by DM_Blake. To some degree.
I don't recall reading anyone mentioning the "Aid Another" action in this thread. 4 hobgoblins "aiding" their commander (even 2 hobgoblins aiding a 3rd) has a better chance of hitting than if they each try to hit the PCs by themselves.
Let's look at the numbers. Three hobgoblins (+4 to hit) are attacking an AC 22 target.
By itself, each hobgoblin hits on an 18, or 15% of the time.Each goblin can successfully aid another on a 6, which means 75% of the time. A successful aid another will increase the designated hobgoblin's chance to hit by 2 numbers, or +10%.
So, ignoring critical hits, the three hobgoblins can expect to do 45% attack damage on average if they each attack individually. The one hobgoblin can expect to do 30% attack damage on average if aided by his friends.
On critical hits: individually, the three will manage a critical hit 4.5% of the time. Using aid another, the single attack will crit 3% of the time. Aid another is again worse.
It seems that if all attacks do the same damage, the aid another action is only useful when a monster would just hit on a 20. Otherwise, the 2 additional numbers he gives his ally doesn't make up for the 2 or more numbers he loses himself.
I'm just frustrated that it seems that most of our problems are due to following the creation rules in the book and that the rule book doesn't offer any concrete suggestions for addressing these issues.
Of course the suggestions are general. There are far too many variables to consider to offer too many concrete steps to follow. That said, the suggestions about appling templates, adjusting the environment, or revising the CR downward if the monsters are disadvantaged are good ones. And some of the templates in the Bestiary are very easy to apply on the fly.
The important thing to remember about a published adventure is that it probably assumes a party of the basic 4 - fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue. The suitability of the challenge for any party that deviates from that will drift.
Your players are melee, armor, and healing heavy. Melee encounters will need to be beefed up accordingly to generate the same balance as the writer intended.
Your players have more actions than the assumed party. Encounter numbers will have to be beefed up accordingly to generate the same balance as the writer intended.
Your players brought along no rogues. Traps will probably inflict more damage than original planned but having two clerics will probably ameliorate that.
I don't recall reading anyone mentioning the "Aid Another" action in this thread. 4 hobgoblins "aiding" their commander (even 2 hobgoblins aiding a 3rd) has a better chance of hitting than if they each try to hit the PCs by themselves.Let's look at the numbers. Three hobgoblins (+4 to hit) are attacking an AC 22 target.
By itself, each hobgoblin hits on an 18, or 15% of the time.
Each goblin can successfully aid another on a 6, which means 75% of the time. A successful aid another will increase the designated hobgoblin's chance to hit by 2 numbers, or +10%.
So, ignoring critical hits, the three hobgoblins can expect to do 45% attack damage on average if they each attack individually. The one hobgoblin can expect to do 30% attack damage on average if aided by his friends.
On critical hits: individually, the three will manage a critical hit 4.5% of the time. Using aid another, the single attack will crit 3% of the time. Aid another is again worse.It seems that if all attacks do the same damage, the aid another action is only useful when a monster would just hit on a 20. Otherwise, the 2 additional numbers he gives his ally doesn't make up for the 2 or more numbers he loses himself.
Yep, as I said at the top of the page. The only time it is better, excepting needing a 20 to hit, is when you have a non-homogeneous encounter and the weaker enemies can aid the stronger. Incidentally, I often use Aid Another when I'm a PC to make the party's best damager (like Barbarian or smiting Paladin) more likely to hit, just because the extra 10% * their damage expected value is better than my own hit chance * my own damage.
Yep, as I said at the top of the page. The only time it is better, excepting needing a 20 to hit, is when you have a non-homogeneous encounter and the weaker enemies can aid the stronger. Incidentally, I often use Aid Another when I'm a PC to make the party's best damager (like Barbarian or smiting Paladin) more likely to hit, just because the extra 10% * their damage expected value is better than my own hit chance * my own damage.
I have done that myself when playing a support role. It's fun to have another way to cooperatively contribute to the party's success.
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Well Cinco, you have three choices as I see it if you don't have the time to modify existing adventures:
1 - Run them through adventures 2-3 levels higher than their level, so a 4th-5th lvl party runs through 6-7th lvl adventures.
2 - Buy an adventure path or the like that someone has already modified for 6 players, taking care of the extra legwork for you. I know this has been done for several of the Rise of the Runelord adventure path series.
3 - Alternate DMing with one of the other players, and whoever is not DMing at the time works on modifying the next campaign/adventure, etc. This way you will have the time to make the changes.
These are your same three options regardless of whether you are playing DnD 3.5, Dnd 4.0, or Pathfinder. All these games use adventures built around 4 players.
The heavy armor, high stats, and two clerics are neither one your difficulty. Your difficulty is the size of your party and the lack of time to adjust your encounters to match the size and makeup of your party. <<The bold is so you get how important this point is, not to "yell" in messageboard form :) >> These two issues aren't going away except by one of the three methods listed above. Altering their stats, armor, or magic items isn't the solution, and its not suprising that your party is upset you want to take their toys away. Its always better to not take things away from your players if possible, but rather toughen up encounters to still be challenging...just goes over better morale-wise usually.
Edit - /ninja'ed by several people due to interruptions and slow typing :)
Yep, as I said at the top of the page. The only time it is better, excepting needing a 20 to hit, is when you have a non-homogeneous encounter and the weaker enemies can aid the stronger. Incidentally, I often use Aid Another when I'm a PC to make the party's best damager (like Barbarian or smiting Paladin) more likely to hit, just because the extra 10% * their damage expected value is better than my own hit chance * my own damage.I have done that myself when playing a support role. It's fun to have another way to cooperatively contribute to the party's success.
Yep, it's my Archivist's MO in Shackled City, and my Summoner does it with her summoned critters as well as herself in Council of Thieves. As far as I've seen, whether or not the characters are willing to step out of the spotlight and do things like Aid Another is a good judge of the best tactically-efficient teams. A good number of players just want their own guy to have the big numbers, and they'd rather make that attack roll than aid the Barbarian.
Back to topic--cinco, it shouldn't take time to just use Goodman's module and add the simple elite array or multiply the creatures present by 1.5x, as you mentioned you would try in one of your earlier posts. It seems like this, combined with good tactics, will win you the day.
For instance, in the Rise of the Runelords published module, one of the players came up with a character who, at level 5, had like 38 or more AC against giants (which were pretty much everything in that part of the adventure path). His guy was size Small. It turned out that his huge AC wasn't very helpful against being Grappled, and he couldn't escape the grapple. His Dervish Dance feat let his Scimitar use Dex to damage and to hit, but it still wasn't a light weapon that he could use to escape the grapple. He was often grappled or checked by sstrong winds, until eventually he died from a critical Enervation, since touch attacks got through 14 or so of his AC. I didn't even add in anything special to threaten him, it was just all there in the module, if the enemies used the right tactics.
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
Ok lets see about this
1: You should not ask them to as they are within line. The party make up is not however.
2: You do not need a huge amount of time. Add more foes, use better tactics and mad HP of the critters they fight.
3: You have more then the standard amount but not to many. I have ran games with 5-7 players many times. Your issues is your players are effective an melee heavy so sending them plain jane melee foes is gonna be cake for them
I do not know the adventure, but I have ran Pathfinder group {6+} though a few 3.5 adventuress. Even a 3.0 one.
Easy stuff, Max hp for foes, add an extra foe if ya think they are cake walking though it. If you think a enemy is to easy, look at the CR, flip open the monster book and switch
Lets look at your grizzilys { CR 4 so 3 would be cr 7} So it should be a bit of a hard fight even for an APL5 Group..although I would peg yours as APL6
By the book
AC:16
hp:42
attacks: +7{1d6+5+grab} +7 1d6+5+grab} and +7 1d6+5+grab]
The AC is easy to hit unless ya roll low.. but what you should have done was max HP. that been 60 HP in place of 42, still kill-able but only if they are lucky
Or what you could have done is this..CR7 that is 2 CR 5's or 3 CR 4's or one CR 7 now let's look at the list in back of the book
Goona pick random here that I think fit the wooded area
3 Harpy's You could easily have them up to 70 HP each, drop em at 200' rang in the air..everyone makes saves. And they have to passes a save each round ..one for each harpy till all harpys have tried..At DC 16 and 6 players with 3 saves..someone will fail. Then they attack the rest of he group as the ones who failed watch.
Next lets try
2 cyclopes. They can go to 100 hp each. have an AC of 19 and have a heavy crossbow. They can get the group at rang, at lest 1 round before the group. The melee is +11 for 3d6+7 they will hit someone, and they have reach
Now lets see
Ah yes lets go a ghost, Touch attack so AC form plat does nada, Oh and DC 18 will save of become panicked and lets see Oh yes it's incorporeal
All hose are CR 7 and could be done on the fly with just he core 2 book. I picked them in less then 2 mins each.
You have not broken the rules. Your simply not using them all. Your running a APL 5or 6 group as if it was an APL 4 group. Might as well run 3rd level party though a 1st level module
Aw Seeker...You forgot the Cyclops get to add 20 to any die roll ability :)
You're AC what now?
Bwhahahaha!
I routinely run the game with 4-6, and on occasion 7 or 8 players. Most of my players have played 2nd, 3.0 and 3.5 and now Pathfinder, so needless to say they are very comfortable with the system and tend to use excellent teamwork to overcome any challenge.
I cant stress it enough that anyone doing the same do some or most of the following.
1.) Preperation. I cant stress this one point enough, if you havent made your own adventure, and are using a pre-published one then some adjustments will have to be made. (See following points).
2.) More Monsters. Rule of thumb is an average CR (equal to the party`s average level for four characters) for a average encounter. For additional players, I personally add more monsters or add class levels to classed opponents. But the easiest option if your tight on time is to add more monsters (adding class levels can be more time consuming). I personally dont make many changes for 5 players (except occasionally add the ADVANCED template to occasional monsters) or add the occasional slightly weaker enemy to a set encounter.
For 6 players, I add more monsters (on average 50% extra) to encounters that use multiple combatants, with solo BBEG encounters, I add relevant monsters usually equal in CR (total) to the average party level -1.
For 7 players I dont do much extra but use the same process as for 6 players but I use the ADVANCED template on most major BBEG`s and significant foes they encounter.
For 8 players I use the same process for 6 players but I double the number of monsters at every encounter and frequently use the ADVANCED template as well as add class levels here and there (though this last part requires ALOT of prepration)
The Average Party level is based on 4 players, if you have more than that, add all the levels up, divide by 4, and that gives you the net CR your encounter should be close to.
Example.)
6 Level 6 characters = 36 divide by 4 (average) = CR 9 (Average Encounter for 6 Level 6th characters)
3.) Being Advanced Players or Characters, you have to be careful with their greatest resource....treasure. Giving too much is a HUGE detriment to any campaign, a good guideline can be found in the Core Rulebook for average wealth dependant on character level. Use this as a guideline. Also remember, whatever you arm your BBEG`s and so forth with is likely going to wind up in the players hands and used by them too. Importantly you have to thoughtful with what kind of treasure someone might find, an average Orc isnt going to carry much beyond his weapon and armor (DO NOT arm each and every classed bad guy with the NPC wealth table`s values, thats more accurate for significant NPC`s (a level 1 commoner doesnt tote around hundreds of GP for example, but it could be said that this is invested in his home, work, etc and he carries very little)).
4.) Problems with large groups. Unless your players are well organised, fights probably take a long time. Use a grid, or even draw one on squared paper in a pinch and use something to represent the players and enemies, it makes it so much quicker that people can see themselves what everyone is doing and makes it run smoother.
5.) Problem Players or Problems with the System. The system itself is almost perfect with some ambiguity here and there (such as the whole Stealth debacle). To keep experienced players on their toes, you have to do some preperation, add more monsters or add class levels to relevant foes, draw some grids out beforehand for significant battles to accomodate your larger number of opponents and for the players to see whats going on, and of course, go easy on handing out treasure.
7.) Tailored Challenges. If your party is melee heavy, its fine if they shine brightest in fights that let them go toe-to-toe with their opponents. You can handle this in several ways...(use these methods sparingly as overuse will just make your players angry or annoyed)
- Use flying opponents with ranged attacks, or with reach weapons or attacks, unless your players have ranged attacks themselves or can fly somehow they`ll have a tough time.
- Use traps or terrain to control the flow of the fight; a rickety bridge or a narrow corridor or ledge should be perfect for ambushing a party like this because their numbers will count for nothing since some of them cant do anything meaningful in some encounters (such as if one of them is trapped down a pit during a fight, or they are stuck in single file traffic and they cant all get into the fight, etc.)
- Rust Monsters. Terrific and horribly efficient against melee opponents. Couple these sparingly with non-metal wearing or metallic weapon weilding handlers such as Goblins with flasks of Alchemists Fire, etc.
- Oozes. Gelatinous Cubes can be challenging if they get the surprise, if not, try out some other Oozes, there are a plethora of them out there and they are hard to beat using melee.
- Magical Backup. Add a spellcaster to certain fights, make sure the fight or terrain is designed to make it hard to reach them (such as they are on a 20ft high ledge or something) while other monsters harass the party. Spells like `Ray Of Enfeeblement` produce effects even on a passed save and the STR loss can be devastating, failing that, spells like `Grease`, etc. can make the players lives worse.
Chief Technical Officer
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Well Cinco, you have three choices as I see it if you don't have the time to modify existing adventures:
1 - Run them through adventures 2-3 levels higher than their level, so a 4th-5th lvl party runs through 6-7th lvl adventures.
I'd be careful with that one—you may find that parts of some higher-level adventures assume the party has access to higher-level spells.
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I shouldn't even need to mention this, but look- your group maxed out the AC potential for now. At this point it is going to increase slowly while all of the enemies to hit scores will increase at a faster pace. Asking to ban plate mail from your group is just silly.
Also- it seems like you almost go out of your way to not use enemies effectively. You complain about the grizzlies above. Let's say the bear tries to hit with hit +7 and grab and cannot. Ok- round 2 go for the straight grapple where he has +13 vs your fighter's CMD, NOT his AC. After that the grizzly is going to deal damage every turn the grapple is maintained. If the fighter doesn't break it the first turn the grapple check becomes +18 to maintain and the CMD for your guy to break free is 20. The fighter probably has a CMB of about +8.
I think everyone has covered this topic from all angles at this point and given you a lot of great advice
- Apply the simple advanced template to everything. (This literally requires no prep work, write it on a note card and apply it on the fly.)
- Max the hps on creatures if you need to.
- Stop using a single opponents vs 6 skilled antagonists if you want the encounter to be a challenge. Even if one opponent is just a 1st level commoner across the room completing a ritual or trying to pull the lever on a trap it divides the party's attention.
-Use Aid Another (which stacks) and flanking if you need help hitting.
-Use terrain as part of the encounter (this was not a 4th ed concept btw).
-Occasionally use enemies which target their weaknesses (speed, will saves, touch attacks, etc)
None of these things requires much of anything in the way of prep work. Try those things out and get back to us on how the game went. If this is still too much work for you then you should not volunteer to run groups outside the standard assumption of 4 players in the future.
Have you considered breaking into two tables? You have 7 people? You can run a party of 3 and the other (presumably newer) GM can run a duo.
That way you don't have quite as many to deal with. If you can get 2 more people you would honestly be in great shape for 2 tables.
I have run Paizo 3.5 adventures for 5 overpowered (working out to well over 40-point-buy -- my group's standard character generation method is "keep rolling until you get the numbers you want"), high-AC, melee-focussed PfRPG characters. Here's what I've learned:
1. Max out hit points. My players started in Beta rules and used the racial hit-point bonus option, so for enemies with character classes, I add those as well. For higher-CR encounters or special situations, like when the baddie has DR the party has no way to get past, I keep 2 columns of hit points, one subtracting from max HP and one from average. If the party gets in serious trouble, the monster dies when average HP are exhausted; if not, they have to hack and slash it all the way down from max.
2. Use a grid and enforce the movement rules. One of the best things that ever happened for me as a DM was when one of the melee-beasts saved up enough money for full plate just before the party was due to be ambushed in difficult terrain. The PC in the tin can spent most of the encounter just trying to get to the bad guys; it doesn't matter how much damage his two-handed weapon does if he can't get into melee range. Also, heavy armor causes even the easiest Acrobatics, Climb or Swim checks to be fraught with peril; don't handwave them just because you figure anyone can roll a 5 DC.
3. When enough encounters turn out to be cakewalks, your players WILL get overconfident. My PCs recently poked their heads into a smallish room with a huge spiderlike creature. Despite DM prodding, they didn't try to draw it out into the open where it could be flanked and where PCs with ranged weapons would have unobstructed shots. Instead, the fighter walked into its lair, thinking he would quickly wipe the floor with the monstrous spider. Too bad it turned out to be a bebilith. After that encounter, which burned through all the party's cure spells/scrolls/potions to keep the PCs on their feet, the players were a LOT more leery about just waltzing into rooms. And overconfidence leads to ...
4. Split the party. Encounters that would be easy for the party as a whole become a lot more interesting when the PCs are split into two or more groups. Make them feel safe, or come up with a good reason for different PCs to go in different directions to achieve individual goals. If they've taken prisoners, some of the party has to stay behind to guard them; ditto for unconscious PCs. Maybe a shy NPC will only deliver valuable information if one or two of the PCs meet him alone. Paladins, clerics, or wizards might have to attend to duties in places other classes aren't welcome (or interested in going). Rangers and rogues have to be well ahead of the rest of the group to take advantage of their Stealth skills. Traps that do no damage but divide the party (trapdoors, falling portcullises, chutes) make dungeons much more dangerous.
5. If an encounter calls for 1 or 2 BBEG spellcasters, add several dozen minions. The PCs might be capable of taking down an orc, zombie, or skeleton with every swing, but if there are enough of them, they'll keep the party from getting into melee with your bad guys long enough for them to get all their best spells off (and, of course, being bad guys, they don't care how many of their own worthless minions they take out with area-of-effect spells as long as they hurt the PCs, too). You don't even have to worry about stats for the minions; they're not participants but terrain.
6. None of the other steps involve doing much prep work, but on occasion, it's worth the time to change a melee-heavy climactic encounter to one that requires other skills to make it more memorable. I once changed an encounter that called for thugs to break into the PCs headquarters and fight them (would have been simple for the party to overcome) into one in which an arsonist set their headquarters on fire while they were inside it. They really worked up a sweat trying to put out the flames and save some of their building, and it impressed them much more than another easily-defeated combat encounter. Instead of a fight, replace it with a situation that requires a Knowledge check (or, failing that, some Diplomacy checks to gather information) or a role-playing encounter requiring some mixture of Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, or some other skill they have written on their character sheet but have forgotten about. Or just forget about dice-rolling entirely and let the party come up with a plan on their own to deal with whatever difficulty they're facing. Some of the most fun times we've had have been when the players are sitting around the table brainstorming a plan for an ambush or negotiation. Whatever they come up with, let it work to some extent; reward them for not just embarking on another frontal assault. Even when the ambush doesn't turn out exactly the way they expected, the players enjoy putting their own plan into motion.
As another suggestion, I routinely run 6 players in a monster campaign. What that means is everyone is non-standard, minotaurs, half-dragons, woodling catfolk, drow, goblins, noble drow, duerger, poison dusk lizardfolk, half-ogres, I've had ALL of those and more as player characters.
One very easy on-the-fly adjustment is to keep the random encounter the same and just double or triple the encounter creatures HP. You keep the same numbers, but it takes a lot more to put them down. The exact multiplier you'll need is going to vary by your group, but you can figure it out after a couple of encounters.
For example, in a level 6 party, I had
Warlock 3/Scout 3 Poisondusk Lizardfolk
Barbarian 4 Ibixian
Druid 2 Woodling Catfolk
Mashall 6 Kobold
Rogue 4 Bugbear
I put them up against a dozen goblins (armed with crossbows) and a hill giant. Each goblin was just a 3rd level warrior in a tree, the hill giant was just a hill giant. However, I doubled the hps of the goblins, and tripled the hill-giant's HP.
The fight took 5 rounds, one character got knocked out and almost died (although hilariously enough, it wasn't from being beaten up, it was from having the hill giant fall on him in a cave opening at the end of the fight and the others couldn't lift it off him). The Barbarian got the @*#*& kicked out of him, the druid and warlock/scout were beaten up a little, and the bugbear had one bolt hit him and ran away (player has not lived it down yet). The goblins had a 20% chance to hit (on average, 5% vs the marshall in full plate, 40% vs the raging barbarian). The hill giant had a 30% chance to hit on average.
It's actually not too hard to adjust on the fly, if you boost HP. If that doesn't do it for you, or you find that the encounters are just all PC hitting and never NPCs, boost the NPCs by +2 to hit.
The idea is, you adjust the numbers on the fly in easy ways to get to the magic level that is 'Perfect Difficulty'. That magic point changes by group. If you are like me and you do a few combats every week or so of game time usually, then the encounters are very hard. If you do them 4 times per day, then they are 20% of resources kind of things. Play with it a little, and you'll find it's fairly easy to modify and tweak just one or two parameters of your encounters to get where you want, there's no need to rebuild every encounter with a slide rule to get perfect balance. Just figure out a few tweaks to numbers you like and go with it.
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
There is nothing wrong with a 20 point buy, 6 person, 2 cleric party. They don't need to change the party (and shouldn't, as a player I would be unreceptive to the issue as well).
#2 is your problem. You shouldn't have to do all kinds of careful crafting, but apparently you do have to think about it just a little bit. I think people are getting mixed signals about whether you are up for that or not. But fear not, you don't need a ton of time.
There's nothing you need to do except run them encounters a CR or two up or otherwise make them tougher. You can do this by:
a) running adventures for a level or two higher character, if you are using older/weaker adventures. The "oh but what if it assumes they have certain spells" shouldn't be a concern over just a couple levels (and it's a bad adventure if it does that anyway). I assume reading the adventure first and vetting it for things like that isn't too much to do.
b) adding some more of the exact same monsters in many encounters to boost ELs. This is not hard. "Look, it's not 2 owlbears it's 4!"
c) use other, better adventures. I'm not a fan of the Goodman adventures, I'll be honest - you mention "but it's all single monsters standing in featureless rooms" - yes, yes it is.
None of this is rocket science, it's D&D 101 and applicable to all versions from 1st to 4th. In fact I'm frankly a little concerned with the lack of flexibility and dependence on the rules for CRs and whatnot. You play it by ear. Double the baddies in encounter 1. If they're bleeding too bad after, don't add so many in the next encounter. If they're fine, hit them with a wandering monster. This is super simple stuff.
OK, try this. It won't require any work at all. You can buy pre-gen adventures, run them unmodified, and everyone will be happily challenged.
No jokes. No sarcasm. I promise.
This plan begins at level one. Your group is level four, so you'll just have to jump in a bit late (or start over) - it works either way.
So get an adventure path. No, it doesn't have to be a Paizo AP, it doesn't even have to be a cohesive "adventure path". Just strings whatever pre-gens you have, starting at level 1 and ending at level 20, or however high you want to go.
For this example, I will use Council of Thieves since it's the one that I am currently DMing.
Next, throw the players in at first level (or fourth). Don't modify anything.
Nothing. Nothing at all.
What will happen is this:
1. The encounters will be easy. Way too easy.
2. The PCs will get enough XP to satisfy four characters. But there are 6 of them so when you divide by 6 instead of 4, each PC will get less XP than the authors had intended.
3. The PCs will get enough treasure and magic items to satisfy four characters. But there are 6 of them so when they divide up their loot, each PC will get less loot than the authors had intended.
4. When the first pre-gen adventure ends, the authors will have intended for them to reach a certain level. In the first installment of Council of Thieves, the PCs are supposed to reach 3rd level. But your PCs won't be 3rd level yet because they have divided their XP by 6 instead of 4.
5. Now start the next pre-gen adventure. Do not modify it in any way. The second installment of Council of Thieves expects the PCs to be 3rd level, but your PCs would only be 2nd level. Guess what happens? The encounters are harder because your PCs are lower level and have less loot/items to deal with these encounters than what the authors intended. But, still, there are more PCs than the authors intended, so it balances out. Might even still be a little bit too easy.
6. Now the PCs keep getting enough XP and loot to satisfy four characters, but they keep having to divide it by 6. They keep falling farther and farther behind.
7. As they fall farther and farther behind, the encounters start getting really challenging. Which is exactly what you want, right?
8. At some point the perfect balance is achieved. The encounters are fun and challenging without being overpowering or lethal. Perfect.
9. Here's the best part. Because the XP system is exponential (more or less), the math will self-correct. Your PCs are dividing their XP by 6 so they get less XP than the authors intended, but they're lower level so they need less XP to gain their next level. Less = Less.
10. This is when you reach XP equilibrium. The PCs will trail behind the whole adventure path, except the lowest level or three, but they will trail at the exact correct pace to maintain the equilibrium.
11. And the magic items will work out too. Sure, they're splitting the hoards 6 ways instead of 4, but they're also taking longer to gain each level, so they are getting more hoards at each level. That means a larger numerator and a larger denominator. Equilibrium again.
12. Voila!
The key to this approach is to never ever modify anything, and even more importantly, do not slip in extra adventures, extra encounters, or alter the path. If you make the mistake of thinking "gosh, this next pre-gen is for 8th level characters and this group is only 6th level, I should replace it with an easier pre-gen, then
Try it. I'm fairly certain it works. I did it years ago with a 5-man Shackled City.
Equilibrium.
Shagri-la.
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Of course the party is unwilling to give up the powers they believe to be rightfully theirs. Let them be.
The party is oriented toward melee and healing. However, they are slow and lacking in Perception, ranged attacks, and trapfinding. Let them fight sneaky archers backed up with appropriate arcane and divine magic. Give the opponents cover, concealment, and the high ground. Place a belt of obstacles between them and the party - mud, creeks, caltrops, punji stakes, concealed pits, or magical traps.
Alternately, dog the party with a goblin ranger/rogue. This baddie remains 200 feet away from the party and takes potshots whenever they are preoccupied with another encounter. Whenever the party turns to confront the goblin, he melts away. If the party can Spot him well enough to give chase, they will find a nasty surprise: he's not alone. He keeps a second-level adept nearby for healing (gasp!). (Give the adept a cat familiar for the +3 Stealth bonus to make him hard to find.) Worse, he has a cleric cohort and a dozen low-level rangers and warriors about another 200-300 feet behind him; their orders are to set up a hasty ambush whenever their leader stops, at a distance of 70-90 feet from the road/trail, using whatever cover and concealment is available. Chasing the ranger/rogue and his personal healer will lead the party right into the trap.
If the party fails to take on this menace to their rear, the goblins will be happy to "pile on" the final encounter of the adventure. Perhaps they will fire volleys of arrows at the rear of the party while the PCs are fighting the final boss. Perhaps the ranger/rogue is the final boss, and his band circles ahead of the PCs during the night to prepare a good ambush:
- Entrenched on the high ground (standard fighting hole is cover, providing +4 AC; a loophole knocked in a wall or an improved fighting hole with a mantlet is improved cover, providing +8 AC)
- Using natural concealment and appropriate camouflage
- Beyond the distance the PCs can charge (due to terrain, natural or artificial obstacles, or long range)
- Kill zone rigged with traps (both mundane and magical)
- Kill zone will use some means to prevent the PCs from fleeing (trees and/or rocks knocked down to block path, caltrops hidden under leaves, ropes pop up to trip PCs, bridge blocked, hooked net falls on rear of party, etc.)
- Using skeletons animated from the monsters the PCs defeated earlier, both for labor (digging, carrying, cutting) and melee cannon fodder.
YES, after observing the PCs fight other monsters for a day or three, the goblins will be well aware that the PCs have two clerics and a paladin, so skeleton wave attacks are out. Instead, they will have a few of the tougher beasties at the bottom of the concealed spiked pit traps (victim comes to them) and the rest far back in a concealed skirmish line just before the archers, to absorb any frontal attack the PCs may mount against the firing line.
Once the PCs realize that not all their combats are going to be toe-to-toe fights, they will diversify to acquire the skills they need to make up their deficiencies. This will necessarily halt or delay the advancement of their melee proficiency, which will make future toe-to-toe fights more challenging in later levels.
I think two divine casters and a ranged fighter type (maybe an alchemist) could put the fear of god in this party. Going with Goblins or Kobolds, use the spells entangle (maybe they killed the druids pet owlbear and him and his animal companion hawk/owl want pay back), hold person (for fear of a coup de grace), and obscuring mist for a quick escape and I think you'd have a recipe for much hated recurring villains. (Maybe a couple of tanglefoot bags for good measure.)
Like others have said, the encounters you've been throwing at them play to their strengths. As a DM you've got other options you can use too. Best of luck.
Sorry, not trying to be a troll (maybe an ettin?)
I'm just frustrated that it seems that most of our problems are due to following the creation rules in the book and that the rule book doesn't offer any concrete suggestions for addressing these issues.
Some of my players balked over the proposed changes (dropping ability scores from 20 point buy to 15; getting rid of full plate).
I'm trying to make a viable system that will work for me. Personally, I just don't have the time to personally construct NPCs to challenge the group with inventive encounters all the time. THAT was supposed to be the reason of spending money to purchase adventures.
So the issue is - if my existing adventures are no good with Pathfinder, what is the most economic solution? Create new adventures from scratch for Pathfinder? Purchase an expensive AP subscription? Or go back to 3.5 where the characters are better balanced to face the challenges in 3.5 ed. adventures?
I'm not anti-Pathfinder. If I hated Pathfinder why would I have even gone to the trouble of posting here? It so happens that my group LOVES Pathfinder (except for one guy who would prefer 4e).
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
I daresay this solution or something superior has been posted. We encountered a similar issue in running PF characters through 3.5 adventures. We are relatively loose with rules and it doesnt worry us if rules-for-monsters are not the same as rules-for-PCs. Since I dont have time to rebuild encounters our solution was:
1. All monsters get the maximum possible hit points (a little bit of calculation but not much and easy enough to do on the fly as the players argue about tactics and make fun of the guy who always fumbles - if I'm particularly rushed I just double whatever the module says)
2. All monsters get a +2 to hit
3. All monsters get a +1 to AC and a +1 to every save
We started out with more complicated tweaking but those crude adjustments kept the danger level about right for us. My suggestion is to try that (or something similar) and then tweak it as you go until you find the right balance. You don't even have to tell the players what adjustments you're making - leave their characters untouched and just crank up the difficulty of the opponents slightly. Ultimately you have to give up on the idea of simulating "reality" but the game can easily be tweaked like this to keep things tense enough without being a bloodbath, imo.
I'm less enamored with using higher level modules - I tried that once and the players hit a monster they were pretty much powerless against. It was a frustrating end to a campaign.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I'm running Savage Tide for five supercharacters and they make mincemeat of the standard encounters. They are now level 11 but I would rate the party as 12 for the splatbooks and homebrew classes and make it thirteen for there being five. Say 12.5.
It's been a long struggle to find a good balance to challenge them but threads like these give me lots of tips.
The best advice I have received: more enemies, profane or whatever bonuses to the opponent, tricky and useful terrain, simple templates and 75% or max hitpoints. When I have time, I play with class levels but usually my statblocks are of the 5 minute quality (10 minutes for a wizard):
Human Fighter 10
Plate armor/ shield with black eagle/ dripping acid longsword that smells of vinegar/ big shiny belt
Auras: moderate magic (trans DC20 faint abj DC 16-ish)
(the party wizard has permanent arcane sight and always asks.)
AC: 27 FF: 25 Touch: 14
HP: 140
Magic stuff: +1 mithral full plate, +2 large shield, +1 acidic burst longsword, Belt of Giant Str +4, has drank potions of Bears Endurance and Cat's Grace
Feats: (Gtr) Wpn Focus, Wpn. Spec, Imp Crit, Imp Sunder, Power Attack, Cleave, Iron Will, Combat Reflexes (3 AOO), Lightning Reflexes
Attk: +20/+15 1d8 + 10 + 1d6 (17 x2)
Sunder: +24
Fort +10 Ref +7 Will +6
Notes: Sunder Sunder Sunder!!! Freak out party fighter :-)
It's nice if you have a free evening to make some super-splatbook Bullywug Fighter-Ninjas or Half-Dragon Troll Warlocks or whatever but that's not so very often for me. The most challenge for my players is when there are lots of enemies, doing stuff reasonably succesfully, and spread out. Then it's "Protect the wizard! Argh, no, protect me!" and everyone's happy.
If a fighter enemy is only hitting on a 20, give him a +2 or +4 or whatever. Justify it as a morale bonus for hating humans and a profane bonus for being tattoed the day before by the shaman. Hitting on 16 or 17 is more fun and still respects the high AC the players built up. Tweak things a bit tougher every time til you find the spot where you rate the challenge as equivalent to the xp it officially dishes out. Everybody happy.
Everything DM_Blake, Joana and Ernest said above is good too. I've been cutting and pasting into my own tips and ideas document :-)
There is more good advice in this thread than just those 3 of course, they are just what I read this morning.
Good luck, have fun, keep us posted :-)
Does these encounters sound like an improvement?
Sounds cool. An interesting variety with some tactics that will make it tougher on them without constantly punishing them for their weaknesses, which I think is a good thing.
One thing--if the dragon gets its ass handed to it by the Paladin, don't take is as a sign that you did something wrong or that your PCs are too powerful or anything. Paladin smite in Pathfinder is very very powerful against evil dragons, outsiders, and undead. It even has several threads about it in this forum. Most people agree that Paladins can potentially solo dragons a CR or two above them if they have a Smite left (though many find this a feature more than I do).
I love it!
The only advice I would give is to have the Lizardfolk fighters use glaives or longspears. Or even better, use Guisarmes and do trip attacks from reach! (X4 critical power attacks are nasty!)
With the kobold, add a bunch of normal kobolds, all disguised to look alike.
Note also that you can fire a crossbow when submerged up to your shoulders in water - +8 cover! And the black dragons breath works underwater!
EDIT: Oh yeah, you may want to make that 2 dragons and give each the young template or something. Party vs. Single monster encounters are prone to wild swings.
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Sounds great Cinco, especially since swamps are my favorite menacing terrain for heavy plate wearers. Liberal use of obscuring mist, fog cloud is good if they try to close, especially in areas where there might be bogs or quicksand. Lastly, if there is a decent depth of water nearby, especially dark murky water, don't forget that lizardmen are amphibious, and can grapple people into the water and pin them there till they drown or are saved. If nothing else, that should keep several of them busy, one trying not to drown and the other trying to save him :).
Does these encounters sound like an improvement?
Much better, small bits of advice:
- Don't be afraid to add a lizard war drummer (bard) to hang back in the protective undergrowth. Even at level 1 he'll be able to add +1 to attack and damage to your lizardfolk - and his Silent Image spell can help misdirect the party
- Along the same lines, a single level 1 lizard shaman (cleric) can also add significantly to the challenge with a single Bless spell
- In fact, as you described, you make use of a lizard cleric - so foreshadow his final showdown by having him around early to bless his troops, then vanish while spitting an evil curse at your players
- Best of all, bless gives moral bonus to attack, and the bard's inspire courage adds competence bonus to attack - so the two sources stack effortlessly and allow your lizards to gain a flat bonus of +2 to attack (and +1 to damage) without having to make use of special flanking or aiding tricks
- Don't be shy of letting your PCs do the work of setting up their own doom - anything that over extends the party will come back to haunt them
- Lastly, don't be shy of adding more monsters in general. Each party has its own power level - the APL and CR is at best a guideline. Just keep on increasing the heat until you find that your players are toasty, but not toast :)
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As for the "hit and run" lizardfolk, you might be better off making all four of them sharpshooters. Their job is harassment, no? The two scythe-wielders have to commit to melee to do their job, which is a big no-no for guerrillas unless they have 3:1 superiority. For staying power, give them a second- or third-level adept or druid, who hangs back and heals the archers in between bouts.
Remember, these guerrillas have as their primary mission to maintain observation on the party. After the party proves it will not be deterred or defeated by the initial skirmish, these sharpshooters will re-engage the party whenever they hit any other lizardfolk defensive position: namely, the quicksand ambush, the pit trap ambush, and the buffed cleric. All surviving lizardfolk from the previous encounters will rally to their chief healer, the buffed cleric.
The lizardfolk are fighting on their home turf, so they will know where the gibbering mouther and shadows are and hang back accordingly. Alternately, they may try to lure the PCs into the danger area by maneuvering opposite the gibbering mouther's lair and shooting arrows at the party (probably from two or three range increments, to maintain a safe distance).
Electric eels don't normally jump out of the water to attack people on bridges. If they did, how would the kobolds use the bridge? It would be better to have the bridge slightly sloped to one side - enough to be readily noticeable, but not enough to affect its trafficability. The danger comes when a kobold throws a lever and causes a swinging, spiked log to pendulum over the bridge. Worse, the kobold sorcerer casts grease spells on the bridge. Either will dump the players into the eel-infested water. Heavily-armored players will have a hard time swimming.
Give the dragon a few kobolds as personal servants: one fourth-level adept, three third-level warriors, and one second-level adept. The warriors are archers with the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats, set up with the second-level adept in an elevated alcove (improved cover, +8 AC) where they can cover the chamber's entrance and interior. The second-level adept blesses the archers and heals them as best he can with three scrolls of cure light wounds. The fourth-level adept is in an armored box (cover, +4 AC) on the dragon's back; his job is to buff (bear's endurance) and heal (wand of cure light wounds, 10 charges) the dragon. Of course, the fourth-level adept has a potion of water breathing. If you wanted to be really nasty, give him a good Ride skill and the Mounted Combat feat to make it harder to hit the beast...
Needless to say, the fourth-level adept is a 15-point buy, while the archers and second-level adept are 10-point buys. The dragon would not pick non-elite scum as personal servants.
It's been a little over 4 months since I posted here. The situation has gotten worse and worse. I've soldiered through it, stopped giving out treasure and better gear, still the group is functioning easily 4 levels above their party level.
Every module I pick up to run is a joke, even if I double the number of monsters and add advanced templates.
I'm going to wrap up the campaign on the next session. I just don't think that Pathfinder is going to work for us. The system is too easy to abuse. The only way that PF functions is that there must be a compact between DM and players that the players will make reasonable characters and the DM will provide them with reasonable challenges.
Sure, you can get a character with a kobold tossing jars of green slime or a swarm of shadows, but eventually running "gotcha" encounters to merely challenge the group harbors animosity between the players and the DM.
My goal is not to kill the characters. (I can do that with an ancient red dragon or the tarrasque.) A fair and exciting combat, that's all I want to run. It seems impossible at the level and number of players I am DMing for.
Look if you aren't going to seriously challenge the characters with good chances of death then no you aren't going to get anywhere with pathfinder.
If you keep the kiddie gloves on they'll keep stomping everything you throw at them into the ground.
It's not a matter of 'death traps' but a matter of thinking and not just having monsters stand there and trade blows with the players like stupid computer game automatons.
Honestly I would suggest starting fresh, dropping some players and not going easy on them.
Realize that CR equal monsters are supposed to be rather easy for a fresh party of 4~5 characters. Hell the party should handle 4~6 of these a day without any problems. IF your party is bigger than 4~5 then it's going to take more to challenge them.
A "challenge" for a party of 4~5 players is CR = party level +2~5 depending on the party. More players means that +2~5 needs to go up by about 1 for every two extra players. The key is to balance the CR of the monster choosen with the number of monsters appearing and the terrain provided for the encounter and seriously trying to hurt the characters Unless you are willing and able to try and kill characters you are going to pull your punches and the players will walk all over your encounters.
I run a group with 8 players and I've never had this problem. I really wish I could relate here, but I gotta ask, could the problem be you?
What are your expectations? Have you ever run a satisfying encounter? Really, this is important.
Most of us sit down to play just to be with friends. I learned a long time ago to not take it personally when my encounters fail. I mean, it's 8 minds against 1, I can't expect every encounter to properly challenge the group, because when it does I don't get cheers from my players, quite the opposite.
All I ask is you step back and figure out what you want from the game and why. It is a game after all and even with a different system your players will probably be just as successful. I'd be proud of my group if they had such strong tactics, but maybe that's just me.
For prepared modules you need to do some tweaks. The problem is that if you have 4 bandits in the module to challenge a regular party (4 15pt characters), then you need something more to challenge a 6 25pt characters. Use 8 bandits and flank extensively or even throw in a leader of the group (bard, cavalier, or someone else able to boost them a bit). You can also toughen the monsters a bit with advanced creature template and potions. Single Owlbear won't be a challenge, but a pair of advanced Owlbears might be. Remember that area attacks are also more damaging with more party members to hit.
I'd also point out that a 21 AC is what my dwarven fighters have at 1st level, that's not high for 3rd level.
10 Base
+6 Chainmail
+4 Tower Shield
+1 Dex Bonus
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Sorry, not trying to be a troll (maybe an ettin?)
I'm just frustrated that it seems that most of our problems are due to following the creation rules in the book and that the rule book doesn't offer any concrete suggestions for addressing these issues.
Some of my players balked over the proposed changes (dropping ability scores from 20 point buy to 15; getting rid of full plate).
I'm trying to make a viable system that will work for me. Personally, I just don't have the time to personally construct NPCs to challenge the group with inventive encounters all the time. THAT was supposed to be the reason of spending money to purchase adventures.
So the issue is - if my existing adventures are no good with Pathfinder, what is the most economic solution? Create new adventures from scratch for Pathfinder? Purchase an expensive AP subscription? Or go back to 3.5 where the characters are better balanced to face the challenges in 3.5 ed. adventures?
I'm not anti-Pathfinder. If I hated Pathfinder why would I have even gone to the trouble of posting here? It so happens that my group LOVES Pathfinder (except for one guy who would prefer 4e).
But I just don't think the system will work for us because...
1) The players are unwilling to sacrifice equipment and ability score points to bring them more into line with typical adventurers.
2) I (as DM) am unwilling (and unable) to invest a ton of time into creating interesting, varied, and challenging encounters for every session.
3) We have too many players, and I'm unwilling to send anyone home.
4) The group has two clerics and they are unwilling to change the party configuration.
The Adventure Paths are designed for 4. You are playing with 6. Much like a 4 passenger car, when you start adding more passengers it's going to need some adjustments.
I've run these things, it isn't hard. If they crush one owlbear, add a second one. If the cube is too easy, make it two cubes.
Your party is about 50% overpowered (more because of the high fantasy rolls) so as a DM make it 50% harder.
If you are doing it right, they aren't getting enough XP between them all to level up with the adventure if you don't add more challenges at this point. And they should end up short on equipment/gold if they are dividing it 6 ways.
Sorry to be blunt, but it isn't the adventure paths. You are the GM, and with great power comes at least some responsibility. And it isn't that hard to either increase the number of enemies in an encounter or open the Beastiary and add a few things.
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It's been a little over 4 months since I posted here. The situation has gotten worse and worse. I've soldiered through it, stopped giving out treasure and better gear, still the group is functioning easily 4 levels above their party level.
Every module I pick up to run is a joke, even if I double the number of monsters and add advanced templates.
I'm going to wrap up the campaign on the next session. I just don't think that Pathfinder is going to work for us. The system is too easy to abuse. The only way that PF functions is that there must be a compact between DM and players that the players will make reasonable characters and the DM will provide them with reasonable challenges.
Sure, you can get a character with a kobold tossing jars of green slime or a swarm of shadows, but eventually running "gotcha" encounters to merely challenge the group harbors animosity between the players and the DM.
My goal is not to kill the characters. (I can do that with an ancient red dragon or the tarrasque.) A fair and exciting combat, that's all I want to run. It seems impossible at the level and number of players I am DMing for.
Post at least 1 play test so we can see what you are doing.
With the party you posted I can see a ton of ways to challenge them without killing them at level.
If you throw undead at a party with 2 clerics and a Paladin, yes it will be a boring fight. If you aren't reading up on the abilities of the monsters you are using before the fight, it will be also be an easy fight. If you give your PC's the knowledge rolls so they know what spells/weapons to use to get around DR/Spell resistance, it will be a boring fight.
If you run as written, it works fine. Hell, most of the AP's have high TPK risks (Damn you Xanesha from RoTRL!)
It's been a little over 4 months since I posted here. The situation has gotten worse and worse. I've soldiered through it, stopped giving out treasure and better gear, still the group is functioning easily 4 levels above their party level.
Every module I pick up to run is a joke, even if I double the number of monsters and add advanced templates.
I'm going to wrap up the campaign on the next session. I just don't think that Pathfinder is going to work for us. The system is too easy to abuse.
It's true that the difference between a well-designed and well-played PC and a poorly-designed and poorly-played PC is huge. But I don't think that's unique to Pathfinder; 3.5 D&D also had that going for it (even more so, perhaps).
Hopefully you'll find a game that you and your players are happy with. Cheers!
said a lot
I'll put my two cents on getting an AP subscription.
I've been running the first one for a while, the party is in the second book. I have four players and I even used a 32-point buy using the pathfinder table for point costs.
My party has already experienced the death of five different characters, two at the middle of the second book and three on the boss of that same book. So as you can see it can be challenging even to high stat players.
If you get Adventure Paths you don't have to do much, the encounters are already balanced with scenarios and situations for each encaounter. If you have six players you can have them at 20 or 15 point buy (I recommend 15, at 20 they would probably just have a hard time with bosses and such and the rest might be too easy)
My group really likes the story and they are looking forward to finish it and getting on to the next one.
Plus, you get new monsters, new prestiges, info on the setting, and lots of other stuff :D
ciretose wrote:
If you run as written, it works fine. Hell, most of the AP's have high TPK risks (Damn you Xanesha from RoTRL!)
Speaking of which, she just killed three out of four characters last Friday. The only survivor was a very, very lucky wizard.