Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Is the cleric a good "face" man? If so, run the Shopkeeper's Daughter challenge with him. Shayliss taking a liking to the one hero who was willing to stick by the town and protect it is not out of character, at all (even if the cleric doesn't have a high charisma). And, if the cleric can successfully extricate himself from the ensuing situation, its a CR2 XP award, all for him alone. That should catch him up a fair bit.
Plus, Sothmektri's suggestion about sheriff Hemlock always going to the cleric is an excellent one. Assuming the encounter with Shayliss goes well, Ven Vinder's not a bad NPC to have as a friendly ally, as well. Discounts at the general store would be pretty key. And Shayliss, herself is *always* going to have all of the best information/gossip about Sandpoint.
I would suggest giving the cleric character his share of the time and spotlight, letting him do some role-playing in town. Award role-playing experience or story award to catch him up.
Also when the party is about to split, I like to throw an encounter or next part of the adventure path at them to see if they stick together or continue on their chosen path.
Err.. Korovus isn't dead. He's in the catacombs under Sandpoint. He was twisted and mutated by the waters of the Shrine of Lamashtu and now serves Erylium as a servant. You could always change him to one of the other Goblin Heroes though, i guess.
In my opinion that is the BEST time to run the "Goblin in the closet" scenario, as it actually vindicates the priest, not punishes him. The Cleric could easily handle the situation on his own, and be thanked for sticking around to protect the town as he was asked, as who knows what horrors could have happened should he not have been there to help. I would change the wife's reaction from that of "you should have been more thorough" to "Thank you for doing what you could to help, and not running off like those OTHER guys, the cowards."
I actually had a very similar problem when I ran Burnt Offerings. The party divided evenly in two, one group wanting to run out into the woods and randomly search for goblins, the second wishing to learn more and get an idea of where the goblins are coming from first, along with keeping their word to watch over the town. The party split and no amount of convincing could budge either side to stay together. I ran the quest with Vin's daughter with the players who stayed in town, along with strengthening up a bunch of RP interactions with townsfolk. Those that left, I gave a few random encounters and had them literally get lost in the forest, only finding their way out at the end of the day. Upon returning, a more "Sour grapes" attitude had fostered in a few townsfolk who thought the players who left had tried to turn coward and ran, so their return was heralded with strange looks, whispers, and the occasional shout on the street accusing them of being cowards and running away from town and their promise. Not everyone in town was like this, but only enough to make it noticeable. Other townsfolk forgave them and still treated them as the heralded heroes, along with those of the party that stayed behind, of course.
I would strongly encourage you to run something that shows that the cleric made a good (if not the right) choice by staying. Have another strike against the town, and he leads the defense to drive it off. It both catches him up in XP, catches him up in spotlight time, and rewards him for rping his character.
Yeah. I'd run something for the cleric who stayed in town...it was good roleplaying after all. Either give him some sort of trouble to quiet down or, if you're already past the time, then just give him the same XP the others got for their combat. They got theirs for combat. He gets his for RP.
Not everything a party does makes sense in terms of their characters. In this case, Belor asked (and they agreed) to keep watch over the town...and most of the party abandoned that promise. That's hardly laudable, even if they did end up doing something good on their trek.
M
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You're welcome. Just let us all know how it goes.
And, yes, trust us: read as much of the adventures as you can, as often as you can. Knowing every little detail will make a *huge* difference in what your players experience. For instance:
Good luck.
Yes, I highly recommend reading through all of the AP and making notes beforehand. You can then know who/what to play up and foreshadow, or even introduce some things early. I learned this lesson with Aldern Foxglove, I had not read the other books yet and I sort of made him an afterthought. I wish I had made him the slightly desperate, hero worshipping npc he's supposed to be and made more of a stronger bond with him and the pcs than I did. Book 2 is all about him.
Characters and references that seem only trivial at first can pop up later in a big way. Strong pc connections and good foreshadowing can really make a huge difference in the story and leave the PCs shocked and amazed or emotionally invested, rather than "hey, isn't that the guy from that other thing?"
Or, you know, wing it. ;)
These forums are awesome though. The people here really love helping other GMs with ideas, and I think we all benefit from sharing info.
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Although its very hard to do with most large populated areas, I am using the new faction guide in my game and added the town of sandpoint as a new faction. If you use something like this, the cleric could have gained a prestige award for staying, while the rest of the party who left would not. Just another way to reward the cleric in your story, as well as emphasize how the town feels about different actions of the party.
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Although its very hard to do with most large populated areas, I am using the new faction guide in my game and added the town of sandpoint as a new faction. If you use something like this, the cleric could have gained a prestige award for staying, while the rest of the party who left would not. Just another way to reward the cleric in your story, as well as emphasize how the town feels about different actions of the party.
That's a really good idea... Especially with the new mechanic out there, it really gives an extra reward.
I have been using it with a Varisian band that my group got "adopted" by... though I have been giving some funky variants on the Varisian Tattoo. :p
Good idea Red!
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I think you should be careful about making a distinction between involving the cleric and rewarding the cleric. Your concerns were that he was going to be left behind in experience and that his actions were going to fracture the group. At least, that's how I read your post.
Giving him an encounter in Sandpoint will take care of the "left behind" part and will show him that roleplaying his character properly will *not* result in the punishment of being left out of the story and the XP.
However, specifically rewarding him for staying in town will further fracture the group. Your players all had a mini argument before splitting up, resulting in him sitting there bored (and probably sulky) while they did their thing. You don't want to turn that argument into a truly fractured party by demonstrating that his way was the only way. It wasn't, after all. If they had wandered in the right direction, they would have stumbled into the rest of the story.
Don't foster the split in your party by adding fuel to the fire. Give good roleplaying its own reward by giving him his own connections, but don't hold it over the rest of the groups' heads (or give him something that will let him hold it over them). They simply roleplayed their characters, is all. Remember what Sothmektri originally proposed: Shalelu will be impressed with the rest of the group going out and killing goblins. Don't withhold that idea; it's very valid.
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Thats why I suggested prestige awards, its based on how well you served the goals of the community, not your party. Maybe in his world the people of Sandpoint feel safer with the adventurers out in the woods hunting for goblins. In my game, they preferred the goblin slayers to be close at hand for their own selfish self-preservation :)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I haven't read the Faction Guide, yet (waiting for it to show up in the store), so I'm not going to offer my opinion on its rules. If the prestige award system is anything like PFS, though, it'd be fun to implement.
However, in this situation, giving the cleric anything extra that the other players don't get could be detrimental to the relationship of that party. Neither side of the argument did anything wrong, as far as decisions. They simply chose different paths, and stuck by their stance with enough vigor to split the party. The danger in this situation is in encouraging the split by rewarding one side over the other. As it currently stands, the "let's get out and do something" group has been rewarded with XP and loot. Now the "we need to stay and protect the town" guy needs his reward, as well. Assuming the DM does one of the suggestions above, he will get XP from one of the side encounters, and his "loot" will be better relations with various NPCs.
Now, going with the faction system, if the cleric could get a PA from the town government, and the rest of them get a PA from Shalelu (assuming she can be a "faction"), that would be a good solution.
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I hear what you are saying about the party splitting up, it makes a lot of sense. Prestige awards basically allow you to use your goodwill standing with an organization/faction to "buy" benefits in place of using money.
The way I handled that making the farmers collective a separate faction. So, characters in my game who focused on protecting the town gained more faction with the town in general and characters who focused on clearing out bad guys in the surrounding countryside gained more faction with the Farmers Collective (more described in AP2). Neither one really gains the party very much other than a price break and good will, at least not for a long time. However one of the players wants to eventually buy a farm, and several wanted to buy a house in town, so each of these could use these awards to help "pay" for what they want.
However, in this situation, giving the cleric anything extra that the other players don't get could be detrimental to the relationship of that party. Neither side of the argument did anything wrong, as far as decisions.
I disagree with that assessment, as the players that left town were specifically breaking their word to Sheriff Hemlock to stay, protect the town, and give the townsfolk peace of mind and a sense of order and calm by staying and "holding down the fort" so to speak while Hemlock is gone. Instead the majority of them ditched out at first opportunity, breaking their word and making those who left out to be untrustworthy in the future, perhaps even flat out liars and cowards in the eyes of the townsfolk.
Granted, such things will have different importance and carry different weight with different campaigns and DMs, but from my standpoint, a HERO who gives his word of protection, then immediately knowingly and willfully breaks it, is a wrongful act. Thus it is my opinion that the Cleric was in the right, while the others who left, while perhaps good of intention, were in the wrong.
*shrug* Again though, it does boil down to playstyle and interpretation.
However, in this situation, giving the cleric anything extra that the other players don't get could be detrimental to the relationship of that party. Neither side of the argument did anything wrong, as far as decisions.I disagree with that assessment, as the players that left town were specifically breaking their word to Sheriff Hemlock to stay, protect the town, and give the townsfolk peace of mind and a sense of order and calm by staying and "holding down the fort" so to speak while Hemlock is gone. Instead the majority of them ditched out at first opportunity, breaking their word and making those who left out to be untrustworthy in the future, perhaps even flat out liars and cowards in the eyes of the townsfolk.
Granted, such things will have different importance and carry different weight with different campaigns and DMs, but from my standpoint, a HERO who gives his word of protection, then immediately knowingly and willfully breaks it, is a wrongful act. Thus it is my opinion that the Cleric was in the right, while the others who left, while perhaps good of intention, were in the wrong.
*shrug* Again though, it does boil down to playstyle and interpretation.
+1
A split group can be a hassle, but it's worth finding out what lead to the split. Is a player acting contrary or sincere based off of what the Dm offers the player? A player should never be penalized for acting out their character honestly based off of what the DM relays. If a group follows through with splitting up, everyone should still be involved with activity and not feel neglected. I would say both sides should feel the merits and pitfalls of their actions, which can lead to growth as characters for both as the story involves. Maybe both sides will come to understand that both sides can have good and bad results. Nothing is strictly black and white. Maybe it was good for the players to disregard their oaths, appear like backstabbers and deceitful, uncaring mercenaries in the short term if their actions lead to nipping goblin activity in the bud. Maybe it was also good for the cleric to stay behind to act as deputy, to carry the burden of responsibility of the law while the law was gone, making decisions for town problems, arresting petty thugs, stopping fights, etc. and made sure the town carried on with daily life.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You're absolutely right, Ravenot.
But that original post up there looked like a player versus player squabble. And no one wants that kind of situation to get out of hand. This is, afterall, a game where people are supposed to have fun with their friends. Choosing sides betweem those friends will cause it to become something not fun at all. Should the DM reward one side and punish the other, he's choosing sides. No DM should ever have to look at one of his friends and say, "You're a hero," while looking at the others and saying, "You're all cowards."
Ahh, see, I read it as more of an IC disagreement and not an OOC dispute. I agree, should any sort of OOC disagreements happen between players, a good DM should try to head that off at the pass as soon as possible.
But should the players be mature and keeping everything IC, I see no reason for not punishing some while praising others. In my games I try to keep a sense of "realism", with realistic reactions to situations and scenarios. The city guards don't take kindly to a druid just strolling into town with a tiger at his side unless it's caged, that sort of thing. I'm not trying to punish the Druid, i'm just playing the story and it's 'actors' realistically. Should players make a promise, then back out of it, those that do will face the repercussions of doing so, and those that did not, won't. It's the players own actions and the response of the world around them that caused the result, not favoritism.
Should doing so be causing OOC arguments and loss of fun, then yes, things need to be switched up for the sake of the game and the almighty FUN, and a mature discussion of the matter with the players would be prescribed. I have no issue with rule 0-ing things, even if they don't make sense, to facilitate the fun and keep things going.
<slight derail>
Sothmektri: I wouldn't fret. I ran my game exactly the same way. I was giving the party a few days downtime during that time, so they felt no need to rush. I also eased their feelings of "We have to rush out and kill all goblins NOW!" with Shalelu's warnings of the forest. I let them know that the goblins were dangerous in the forests, and now that there seemed to be an intelligent force organizing them, an unorganized force blindly searching for their camp could easily walk into a deathtrap. There were also enough goblin losses that no second wave assault would be coming anytime soon to face the same result, so the town was safe, for a few weeks at least. That gave the party enough peace of mind to allow Shalelu a week or so of scouting and gathering tactical intelligence on the situation, the same week that Hemlock took off to Magnimar.
The party headed off to the Glassworks and rescued Ameiko, and promptly continued on into the Catacombs. I made it clear that the Catacombs were beneath the city and did not take them farther than a few minutes to get back to the street level of Sandpoint. The party felt obligated to explore and exterminate them as an immediate threat to the city, in it's defense. Should your party feel it's not an immediate threat, sending up a Sinspawn or two from the depths into the glassworks and onto the streets should change their minds.
For my party, the Catacombs took two days to clear. After that, they used the remaining time waiting for Hemlock to return by researching the details from the new information they obtained in the Catacombs, and make preparations and get everything in line to take off for Thistletop once the Sheriff returned. They did not feel rushed to leave for Thistletop until the Sheriff got back and was debriefed of the situation. Everything still ran like clockwork.
The party quickly adopted a mindset of doing things slow and carefully with proper preparation and all available information first, rather than knee-jerk rushing out to hack and slash, which I feel is a huge asset in this entire AP. Knowing that there was something of a greater threat than goblins waiting for them at Thistletop made them slow down and think.
</slight derail>
Should the DM reward one side and punish the other, he's choosing sides. No DM should ever have to look at one of his friends and say, "You're a hero," while looking at the others and saying, "You're all cowards."
I guess I am not understanding what you are getting at here... isn't rewarding one side and not the other exactly what is happening if you run encounters and exploration and what not for the side that left town and not for the guy who stayed?
If the situation is, as you described, a player issue, then it seems the only way to keep things fair would be to have encounters for the cleric while the others are gone.
Personally I would try and intersperse the action from both at the same time so there wasn't as much down time at once for anyone, but this may not be possible now. This player had to sit around and wait while others did stuff... seems fair that the same patience is afforded him by the other players, keeping him caught up in xp and face time.
Sean Mahoney
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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This is the part of the orginal post that I keyed in on:
Player inflexibility is one of the banes of good D&D groups that I've encountered in the past, and nerves got a little frayed around the table as everyone argued about the course of action they should take...
That sounds like friends starting to fight amongst each other.
If the situation is, as you described, a player issue, then it seems the only way to keep things fair would be to have encounters for the cleric while the others are gone.
Your suggestion is exactly what I was suggesting to do to derail it. Others were suggesting to give the cleric a reward for staying in town while the other characters were punished in some way. That would have made the above referred to "frayed nerves" worse.
I think, in an in-character situation, those suggestions are spot-on. The cleric stayed true to his word, the others did not. So long as it was a matter of players playing their characters, rewards and punishment should be handed out as appropriate. I think the posters who were suggesting this course of action merely missed the reference that I quoted at the beginning of this, and I wanted to be sure that the original poster didn't lose sight of his OOC situation.
Enough debating about good DMing, though. We all agree about all of these situations. We're just paying attention to different things...
I think I *may* have accidentally trapped them into feeling obligated to leave town contrary to the assurances they gave the sheriff.
I think the Catacombs were put in specifically for this situation. There's a threat from below town, and the players are merely doing their stated duty by removing it. Like Ravenot suggested, have some sinspawn roll up into town to be dealt with.
I haven't read through the Chopper's Isle idea, but I always wanted to do something like that, as well. Real life got in the way too often and kept me from customizing very much.
Another option: I remember that the goblins regularly raid the trash-dumping area on the north side of town for items to use as weapons. The tribes may be down, but they're not out, and a foray by them to re-arm themselves could serve to remind the heroes that the town, itself, is vulnerable, while ramping up the tension of another, impending, attack.
Players having more than one choice is always good. It keeps the game from being a railroad.
Ahh, I see now. I think I originally read it through rose colored glasses from my own similar experience.
My own group wanted to split up. Specifically, one player felt we had to rush out and kill things, and wouldn't back down. Another player went along with him for the ride, and a third accompanied just to make sure he didn't die. The three remaining party stayed behind. After getting lost in the forest for the day, that half of the party decided perhaps getting more information about where to go first would be a better course of action, which is when I dropped the note for the Glassworks on them.
My players did have a bit of a heated discussion on the matter regarding splitting the party like this, but I reminded everyone to keep things IC and everyone actually had fun transferring their hot opinions into RP. There were still a bit of heated debate, but after that point where it was part of RP it was kind of fun for everyone to get in a big argument in character.
The heated argument was still there, but in game, so no OOC feelings were getting hurt. I read that line and it just clicked in my head that they had the heated discussion IC and not OOC, which is bad assumptions on my part. :P
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Ahh, I see now. I think I originally read it through rose colored glasses from my own similar experience.
Either that or I'm reading that situation through lenses of my own...Hmm, I wonder what that says about the group that *I've* been playing with...
I reminded everyone to keep things IC and everyone actually had fun transferring their hot opinions into RP. There were still a bit of heated debate, but after that point where it was part of RP it was kind of fun for everyone to get in a big argument in character.
That's an awesome way to handle that, and one I will have to remember. I can see everyone being able to let off a bit of steam, all in the name of "roleplaying" and no one getting bent out of shape. Fun...
I'm now working up a creepy sinspawn excursion.
Enjoy! Let us know how it works out for you.
Your suggestion is exactly what I was suggesting to do to derail it. Others were suggesting to give the cleric a reward for staying in town while the other characters were punished in some way. That would have made the above referred to "frayed nerves" worse.
I gotchya now... I misunderstood what you were saying...
It's all good!
Sean Mahoney
I had exactly the same situation in my game. The chaotic types wanted to go chasing goblins in the wilds but the Paladin stayed put. IC the player went on about breach of trust, the honor of be left in charge of the safety of the town, etc. Really played up the lawful aspect of his alignment. The other lawfuls in the party sided with the Paladin who gave his blessings to the chaotic types to go in search of goblins but steadfastly refused to break his word to Sheriff Hemlock and the town.
It was a great piece of roleplaying.
The player when asked what he would have done all night if everyone broke their word and went off into the hinterlands. "Play the goblins!"
In the end more sided with the Paladin and the idea of searching the hinterlands without muscle seemed less attractive.
Wow, several items that I hadn't looked at from that point of view... next group running through this is in for a bit of a surprise....
The group I am currently running spoke to the town council after the catacombs and informed the council of their intentions to be proactive. Despite the promise of keeping an eye on the town they urged attacking thistletop before it could recover and thus end the threat completely.
I'm seeing this in a different light now... this is going to be interesting for the group I start running this for next month.