I think an important thing to remember that smite is not the only class ability paladins have. Sure, the pure damage numbers may not end up grossly favoring the paladin over the fighter...but that's pretty much the fighter's only thing. (I know the fighter gets a ton of feats, but most of these get used improving the damage output when the damage comparisons are run between the fighter and the smiting paladin.)
The paladin has spells, weapon bond, mercies, swift action self heals, and vastly superior saving throws. I've seen the latter two in particular mean the difference between victory and defeat in numerous battles. I think it's when smite is looked at in the context of all of the class abilities as a whole that its boost seems a bit much to many people.
I really like some of the suggestions that have been offered (limiting the Aura of Justice/DR boosts/double damage aspects). I'll offer one of my own concerning the infamous "Archerdin": Smite damage only applies to one missile attack per round. The paladin's holy resolve is still being brought to bear, but it is only at its most powerful when the paladin is directly confronting his or her foe, close enough to almost tangibly feel the evil. This still leaves missile attacks viable, but reserves the greatest effect of smite for up-close, personal combat (as the flavor has always seemed to be been intended).
So in terms of pure damage a 2handed fighter has a slight advantage over a normal smiting paladin, except the fighter can do this all day long against any manner or number of targets, the paladin cannot.The archer fighter lags slightly behind the smiting paladin but again doesnt have the target number or variety issue.
Yes, certainly true. And the smiting Paladin has the advantage for Two Weapon Fighting as well.
I was only surprised when you said that the normal smite was outpaced by the Fighter--I've been impressed with your posts in other threads, and my number crunching came out advantage Paladin at most levels (at low levels the to-hit for Charisma is more extreme because the Fighter doesn't have Weapon Training or Greater Focus yet, though the lower damage hurts, but I figured 11 was a good test of both classes getting their signature abilities).
The x2 damage while ignoring DR can get a bit crazy, and we also didn't factor in ignoring DR, but whether or not a group has trouble with DR a lot will vary from group to group. Clearly if we did include it, ignoring DR is even better for the many smaller blows in TWF and archery.
However, I think that what we have here is about right in terms of damage capacity between the two classes (of course, the true winner is the Fighter when the Paladin lends her a smite with Aura of Justice). But when the Paladin smites and the Fighter keeps on chugging and it comes time for the monsters to counterattack, the Paladin's defenses are going to keep her awake and doing damage.
It's also worth noting that if a group rolls stats (ours does) and you roll a bit above average (my program I wrote for the 15PB thread says that over 1/3 of all characters rolled using standard method have 25 points or above, and just under 1/6 of them are 30 or above) that the Paladin starts getting even more advantages.
All that said, I think that the Paladin as a package has proven to be more powerful than the other fighting classes in my games. Still, I haven't nerfed it--I just make sure that the enemies are up to muster (and this did take adjusting in Rise of the Runelords before it fixed itself by the party falling two or so levels behind the expected level--it was quite clearly the two Paladins who were making the encounters adjust up as much as they were).
However, there's probably a reason that our Rise of the Runelords group had 3 Paladins for a while, and our Council of Thieves group has three, or four including Sclavo (we joke that we must have half the Paladins in Westcrown). Our group, including the Paladins, more or less agree that its a bit strong, but it still works for us with some adjustment.
I guess mainly, I believe that a newbie GM (particularly one who has the group roll stats) and who likes to run modules as written may run into some trouble with a Paladin--the Paladin in our group rolled stats that were probably only 18 or 19 or so Point Buy, but he probably could have almost beaten as-written Burnt Offerings alone (high AC and Swift action healing helps with the mooks, and the extra XP for running it alone would probably have let him do so successfully). However, Pathfinder makes it so easy to adjust things that it really shouldn't be an issue.
I hope this doesn't come across as sweeping or declaratory or such--I know the internet can mask tone, unfortunately. People on these boards have a lot of good insights into the game--I'm curious as to other people's experiences, and I'm trying to put mine out there as well.
I would never play a ranged smiter, and have never seen one played but i dont see it as 'wrong'. I honestly dont think damage needs to be adjusted, if anything its all the other things smite does (like auto bypassing DR for instance). And the whole everyone smite that guy ability. The damage and ac boost i dont have a problem with, even against team evil.
We have an archerdin in our group, but she's multiclassed with Sorcerer and Arcane Archer, so she's not Paladin all the way.
I agree with you about the everyone smite ability (which I think lets them all smite different people as well) and the bypassing DR are some of the most iffy to me. The Cha bonus to both attack and AC can be excessive too when the character has very high Cha. I'm actually probably least worried about the damage.
I think an important thing to remember that smite is not the only class ability paladins have. Sure, the pure damage numbers may not end up grossly favoring the paladin over the fighter...but that's pretty much the fighter's only thing. (I know the fighter gets a ton of feats, but most of these get used improving the damage output when the damage comparisons are run between the fighter and the smiting paladin.)
The paladin has spells, weapon bond, mercies, swift action self heals, and vastly superior saving throws. I've seen the latter two in particular mean the difference between victory and defeat in numerous battles. I think it's when smite is looked at in the context of all of the class abilities as a whole that its boost seems a bit much to many people.
+1
Yes, certainly true. And the smiting Paladin has the advantage for Two Weapon Fighting as well.
I was only surprised when you said that the normal smite was outpaced by the Fighter--I've been impressed with your posts in other threads, and my number crunching came out advantage Paladin at most levels (at low levels the to-hit for Charisma is more extreme because the Fighter doesn't have Weapon Training or Greater Focus yet, though the lower damage hurts, but I figured 11 was a good test of both classes getting their signature abilities).
My apologies, at least in my mind, A paladin is always a 2handed or sword and board fighter. This method is where the fighter outpases the paladins normal smite, that is where the statement comes from, I should have qualified it. If we go level by level it goes back and forth. There are some key levels for the fighter where as the paladin is a pretty stead progression. It also depends heavily on stats. As a fighter will not gain much from a 25pt vs 20 pt buy in terms of damage, but the paladin almost certainly will.
The x2 damage while ignoring DR can get a bit crazy, and we also didn't factor in ignoring DR, but whether or not a group has trouble with DR a lot will vary from group to group. Clearly if we did include it, ignoring DR is even better for the many smaller blows in TWF and archery.
It definately gets crazy. But given how limited the ability is, I think this is ok in my mind. The paladin doesnt get to smite as often as the fighter swings his sword. When the paladin isnt smiting, the fighter shines. When the paladin is smiting a normal smite, its close to even, and when the paladin is smitging team evil, its paladin shining time. That works for me. Kicking butt on the big bad evil thing is what the paladin is supposed to be good at. I like that they are really good at it now.
However, I think that what we have here is about right in terms of damage capacity between the two classes (of course, the true winner is the Fighter when the Paladin lends her a smite with Aura of Justice). But when the Paladin smites and the Fighter keeps on chugging and it comes time for the monsters to counterattack, the Paladin's defenses are going to keep her awake and doing damage.
I agree
It's also worth noting that if a group rolls stats (ours does) and you roll a bit above average (my program I wrote for the 15PB thread says that over 1/3 of all characters rolled using standard method have 25 points or above, and just under 1/6 of them are 30 or above) that the Paladin starts getting even more advantages.
I would agree that better stats can definately skew the results, but that becomes a really difficult point to discuss. Do we account for every possible system? A 10pt buy for instance favors the fighter heavily as the paladin wont have the stats to fill out his better fighting methods (two weapon or arhcery). The permutations can get pretty crazy here.
All that said, I think that the Paladin as a package has proven to be more powerful than the other fighting classes in my games. Still, I haven't nerfed it--I just make sure that the enemies are up to muster (and this did take adjusting in Rise of the Runelords before it fixed itself by the party falling two or so levels behind the expected level--it was quite clearly the two Paladins who were making the encounters adjust up as much as they were).
I wouldnt dispute this. The paladin is likely the strongest fighting class. But I dont have a problem with that. Its still not the strongest class. I assure you if you had a druid, battle cleric, wizard, beguiler, Summoner party you will be begging to have your 2 paladins back. The difference is this power is coming from someone swinging a sword, which people arent used to. To me at least, it's refreshing.
However, there's probably a reason that our Rise of the Runelords group had 3 Paladins for a while, and our Council of Thieves group has three, or four including Sclavo (we joke that we must have half the Paladins in Westcrown). Our group, including the Paladins, more or less agree that its a bit strong, but it still works for us with some adjustment.
I would think a 3 or 4 paladin party would have problems that have nothing to do with damage. Do you not lack for magic and skills? It seem that would be more difficult to handle then the added damage capacity. That and the fact that a big chunk of your party has serious roleplay restrictions. I figure an AP called council of theives might cause difficulties for a group full of paladins.
I guess mainly, I believe that a newbie GM (particularly one who has the group roll stats) and who likes to run modules as written may run into some trouble with a Paladin--the Paladin in our group rolled stats that were probably only 18 or 19 or so Point Buy, but he probably could have almost beaten as-written Burnt Offerings alone (high AC and Swift action healing helps with the mooks, and the extra XP for running it alone would probably have let him do so successfully). However, Pathfinder makes it so easy to adjust things that it really shouldn't be an issue.
Any dm unwilling or unable to adapt to his party's strengths and weaknesses or just purely runs straight modules is going to run into problems paladin or no. Lots of party combinations will wreak havoc with that. And it cannot be completely solved without changing some of the fundamentals of the game. 4E made it very easy to DM because there is a small variation in the capabilities of each class. The difference between the minmaxed most powerful class, and the slapped together weakest class is very small compared to 3.x. You have to abandon the idea of a cohesive world (and making you feel like you are a paladin, or feel like you are monk) as the priority if you want that near perfect balance in power. I dont want to see cohesiveness in the game world and rules stop being a priority in pathfinder. There will always be differences in the relative power of classes. I am ok with that.
We are aware of some imbalance issues with this class ability. They are being reviewed.
Stay tuned.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
No, please don't fix the "problem". The Paladin Smite is quite fine at the moment, as many have noted before. If anything could need toning down, it's Aura of Justice, not Smite per se.
I would think a 3 or 4 paladin party would have problems that have nothing to do with damage. Do you not lack for magic and skills? It seem that would be more difficult to handle then the added damage capacity. That and the fact that a big chunk of your party has serious roleplay restrictions. I figure an AP called council of theives might cause difficulties for a group full of paladins.
Ah, the Council of Thieves are the bad guys. The good guys are basically batman. With Paladins. The AP actually surprisingly doesn't work with greyer characters.
As for the mix-up, we're challenging the GM actually--even though its written for PF, she has to add monsters or we trounce them. We technically don't have the Paladin/Rogue/Duelist yet, so it's only two Paladins at the moment. We have:
Paladin (tank)
Paladin (twohanded)
Fey Sorcerer (Laughing Touch for bosses, Colour Spray for mooks)
Really Crappy Rogue (he took like Skill Focus Profession Spy and didn't have Weapon Finesse despite meleeing with 18 Dex and 10 Str, for instance).
Me--Summoner (My Eidolon has never fought with us yet because she thinks its an imaginary friend. We're level 5 now. Most characters also think the Eidolon is imaginary. My character also doesn't really know she has spells, so she doesn't use them often, mostly just the Summon Monster SLA and Aid Another with a Morningstar).
The tank Paladin may have rolled lowest in the party, but he still two-rounded a Bearded Devil that the GM added to an encounter when we were level 4 after I think doubling the number of troll skeletons in that encounter as well.
Any dm unwilling or unable to adapt to his party's strengths and weaknesses or just purely runs straight modules is going to run into problems paladin or no. Lots of party combinations will wreak havoc with that. And it cannot be completely solved without changing some of the fundamentals of the game. 4E made it very easy to DM because there is a small variation in the capabilities of each class. The difference between the minmaxed most powerful class, and the slapped together weakest class is very small compared to 3.x. You have to abandon the idea of a cohesive world (and making you feel like you are a paladin, or feel like you are monk) as the priority if you want that near perfect balance in power. I dont want to see cohesiveness in the game world and rules stop being a priority in pathfinder. There will always be differences in the relative power of classes. I am ok with that.
+1. My group has found Paladin abilities a bit powerful, so I've kept up with each thread here on the topic, but I agree with you here completely--that's why I play Pathfinder. The main reason I came out of lurk mode was that one point on smite damage.
I wouldnt dispute this. The paladin is likely the strongest fighting class. But I dont have a problem with that. Its still not the strongest class. I assure you if you had a druid, battle cleric, wizard, beguiler, Summoner party you will be begging to have your 2 paladins back. The difference is this power is coming from someone swinging a sword, which people arent used to. To me at least, it's refreshing.
In the game I'm running (the Rise of the Runelords game), the negative-energy cleric (secretly of Zon Kuthon, supposedly of Irori) is also pretty impressive when he needs to be. And the Wizard's scrolls are their trump cards in the clutch when I throw two additional lamia matriarchs into a boss battle and they're underleveled by a level or two anyway. But the Wizard gets the most mileage out of helping the Paladins. In a recent large-scale encounter, the tide was turned when the Wizard disengaged an opponent to go cast Haste (for more Smite damage) and Fly (to get to the fight) on the Paladins.
Druid and Summoner are clearly in their own class, though, thanks to action economy.
I mean, I'm not saying it was hard for me to handle the two Paladins. I GMed a 3.5 campaign just before Runelords that went to level 16 or so, with lots of splat books, so I know what it's like to actually have to use massive GM mojo on balance (I've also run light epic without it imploding, which was a true experience). Just quite noticeable in their ability to kick AP monsters and NPCs's (properly converted of course) butts and/or save the party--there were at least four occasions, back when they didn't have the archer, that the other Paladin saved the party from a TPK by soloing one or more opponents who were higher level--the standout was when he took down Nualia and Tsuto in Burnt Offerings basically by himself.
Then again, I've never run a published module before Runelords, so maybe it's always like that.
Director of Games
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No, please don't fix the "problem". The Paladin is quite fine at the moment, as many have noted before. If anything could need toning down, it's Aura of Justice, not Smite per se.We are aware of some imbalance issues with this class ability. They are being reviewed.
Stay tuned.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Don't worry. I am a big fan of small steps as opposed to drastic revisions. The change that has been made is not huge, but it does address some of my power concerns with the ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
No, please don't fix the "problem". The Paladin is quite fine at the moment, as many have noted before. If anything could need toning down, it's Aura of Justice, not Smite per se.
Well, they're not going to be able to edit my copy of the rulebook, so I'll always have the Paladin just the way I like it. No worries.
Well, they're not going to be able to edit my copy of the rulebook, so I'll always have the Paladin just the way I like it. No worries.
+1, it will stay as written in my games as well. I always hate reworking core powers or classes as you get people playing with different rules from the same book. To much confusion .
+1, it will stay as written in my games as well. I always hate reworking core powers or classes as you get people playing with different rules from the same book. To much confusion .Well, they're not going to be able to edit my copy of the rulebook, so I'll always have the Paladin just the way I like it. No worries.
I would be pretty annoyed if it changed in any rulebook. Erratta and clarifications are one thing, but if there are actually different rules in different printings of the book, that way lies madness at the gaming table unless its wrapped in big bold text saying oh by the way it wasnt like this in the first printing of this book. Now if its in some alternate class feature or even in an outside errata source thats one thing. But actual edits to print books or pdfs would be a major problem for me.
Errata is for clearing things up, Not reworking how something functions. There is no funky wording, no mis-communication or unclear meaning or text to Errata. It was not an oppys we forgot this line or a coma here.It seems like it's gonna be a change in how it works, that is not what I call Errata.
My thoughts on it anyhow, YMMV
Well, as long as '2nd printing' or something is in an easy to reference spot...
I have no plan to buy a new copy to keep up with rules changes. So I will Ignore them all, and if someone disagrees they are incorrect as my book says they are. I have no interest in patch updates or having to see what "version" everyone has "oh P.03 and P.02 have different rules for that".
No thanks.
No, please don't fix the "problem". The Paladin is quite fine at the moment, as many have noted before. If anything could need toning down, it's Aura of Justice, not Smite per se.We are aware of some imbalance issues with this class ability. They are being reviewed.
Stay tuned.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingDon't worry. I am a big fan of small steps as opposed to drastic revisions. The change that has been made is not huge, but it does address some of my power concerns with the ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That's good to know. Well, we'll see what you have in my, uh, soon enough? :p
Don't worry. I am a big fan of small steps as opposed to drastic revisions. The change that has been made is not huge, but it does address some of my power concerns with the ability.Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Nice. :-)
When, how and where will we get the news?
That's good to know. Well, we'll see what you have in my, uh, soon enough? :pNo, please don't fix the "problem". The Paladin is quite fine at the moment, as many have noted before. If anything could need toning down, it's Aura of Justice, not Smite per se.We are aware of some imbalance issues with this class ability. They are being reviewed.
Stay tuned.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingDon't worry. I am a big fan of small steps as opposed to drastic revisions. The change that has been made is not huge, but it does address some of my power concerns with the ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Holy... I should really proof-read always before logging off. >.< What I meant to say is "We'll see what you have in mind, uh, soon enough?".
......The paladin is likely the strongest fighting class. But I dont have a problem with that. Its still not the strongest class. I assure you if you had a druid, battle cleric, wizard, beguiler, Summoner party you will be begging to have your 2 paladins back. The difference is this power is coming from someone swinging a sword, which people arent used to. To me at least, it's refreshing.
+1 This is it. I have yet to deal with a paladin that can put me through the mental gymnastics a well played caster can, and has done.
I have zero problems with archer paladins. Paladins are, I think, culturally specific - just as paladins of one faith or culture use scimitars instead of longswords (BUT THAT'S NOT EUROPEAN...!), paladins of another use longbows.
I only have a beef with aura of Justice, the damage is... well, a LOT, but bearable.
I can see Aura of Justice being smacked down a bit, as well as the double smite to some enemies. I think if the first was brought low a bit and the second cancelled, paladins would still be awesomebroso.
......The paladin is likely the strongest fighting class. But I dont have a problem with that. Its still not the strongest class. I assure you if you had a druid, battle cleric, wizard, beguiler, Summoner party you will be begging to have your 2 paladins back. The difference is this power is coming from someone swinging a sword, which people arent used to. To me at least, it's refreshing.+1 This is it. I have yet to deal with a paladin that can put me through the mental gymnastics a well played caster can, and has done.
Obviously there are a lot of people that don't agree with you.
If you wade through that other thread, you will be given all the arguments why. Me, I think it's clear why the smite/the Paladin needs to be nerfed. How is another matter.I can see Aura of Justice being smacked down a bit, as well as the double smite to some enemies. I think if the first was brought low a bit and the second cancelled, paladins would still be awesomebroso.
+1
...I would also nerf the bypassing of DR some.Make it by pass DR as if the Paladin used a +3 weapon and a Lawful & Good aligned weapon. Or as if The Paladin used a +5 weapon.
I guess we just have to wait and see ;-)
My problem has nothing to do with cultural differnces.. It's more that delivering such a powerful blow should not be done from the safety of range.
The wizard, wildshaping bird druid caster, the flight hex witch, flying draconic, celestial or abyssal sorcerors, and the wind oracle.
I really don't know why people are so up in arms flipping out about paladin smite damage when a wizard can cast sleep, run up and machine-gun coup de grace up to four opponents right out of the gates at level one. He's not doing like massive damage (unless he wants to) but he can still stop entire encounters with a single application of a high DC spell and a low roll on a d20.
I can see Aura of Justice being smacked down a bit, as well as the double smite to some enemies. I think if the first was brought low a bit and the second cancelled, paladins would still be awesomebroso.
This is also exactly what I'd like to see.
In addition, I feel a paladin should have some combat advantage EVERY time he finds himself in combat with evil opponents. As it stands, he remains average with respect to other melee oriented classes when fighting evil, EXCEPT for when he smites… and then he is overkill. In other words, when fighting the following, mechanically speaking he should feel:
1) Owlbear: average
2) Orcs: competent (with the option to be extraordinary)
3) Lich: extraordinary (with the option to be competent)
Because as it stands he looks:
1) Owlbear: average
2) Orcs: average (with the option to be overpowered)
3) Lich: overpowered (with the option to be average)
Two comments:
1) "Just throw more foes at the party to use up smites." That gets to be very routine if overdone and it kind of defeats the intent of smite evil: it's obviously an ability that's meant to be invoked when fighting the direst evils, yet routinely, as a GM you'd be taking it away from the paladin in such circumstances.
2) "Don't let the BBEG go it alone." All this does is indicate that solo BBEG battles are not an option. I like having the option of a solo dragon encounter.
Two comments:
1) "Just throw more foes at the party to use up smites." That gets to be very routine if overdone and it kind of defeats the intent of smite evil: it's obviously an ability that's meant to be invoked when fighting the direst evils, yet routinely, as a GM you'd be taking it away from the paladin in such circumstances.2) "Don't let the BBEG go it alone." All this does is indicate that solo BBEG battles are not an option. I like having the option of a solo dragon encounter.
+1
Tricking or forcing the paladin to use up his smite so he doesn't shine in the final fight is really cheap and lousy GMing in my opinion. If he is going to give you that much trouble without you having to resort to metagaming tricks, there is clearly a balance issue.
Likewise, solo BBEG battles are among the most climactic things you can have in D&D/Pathfinder. I know the rules don't support them that well, but the Paladin really goes overboard to trivialize these.
My gripe with smite evil is the double damage against team evil. The paladin is more than competent without it, and at a significant advantage against them. At the very least, I'd take it away from ranged attacks, so he at least has to put himself in harm's way to get the benefits.
I have no problem with smite as it is. If I'm that worried as a GM that my BBEG is gonna get caned then it would be safe to assume that in the BBEG mind he would be thinking the same. Paladins are fairly obvious, you would bet all your gps that that guy over there with all those holy symbols on him with a big sword looking all chiseled and buff is the Paladin. He has target written all over him.
Where is BBEG going to focus...
With a Scarlet "P" (for Paladin) burned into his forehead.
Yea, In an adventure, after they had cleared out a temple and only had the throne room to finish, the BBEG concentrated on the Paladin and killed him, mostly because of a poor choice by the parties cleric and a really good crit that put the Paladin at worse than -con.
If there was to be any change, I would like to see the "overcome any DR" changed to perhaps overcoming Lawful and Good and +x (2?).
-- david
Papa.DRB
I have no problem with smite as it is. If I'm that worried as a GM that my BBEG is gonna get caned then it would be safe to assume that in the BBEG mind he would be thinking the same. Paladins are fairly obvious, you would bet all your gps that that guy over there with all those holy symbols on him with a big sword looking all chiseled and buff is the Paladin. He has target written all over him.
Where is BBEG going to focus...
If you nerf the smite, at least bring back the continuious Protection from Evil. That would ge a great trade-off, IMO.
he has charisma bonus to saves. What do you want more?
If you nerf the smite, at least bring back the continuious Protection from Evil. That would ge a great trade-off, IMO.
A few things I do not like much :
- laying on hands as swift action on himself, a bit silly munchkin like for my taste effectively changing it in some kind of supercharged fast healing ability.
- double damage smite vs dragons, fiends and undead, seems a bit overkill for me, though I appreciate the flavour for traditional enemies for the paladin
- The AC bonus when smiting, useful sure, I like to see smite as an offensive skill not so much as an all round combat buff though. Again just a bit too much
- I dislike the encouragement to play two weapon or archer paladins just to get in more smites per round, paladin classic fighting style sword and board or a 2hander should be encouraged more.
a few things I would have liked :
- I would like to see a paladin being able to cast spells as a swift action. There was a feat in some splat book allowing this in 3.5, nobody wants a frontliner to spend a round casting a low level spell.
- Instead of the improved smite I consider having a constant damage bonus equal to charisma modifier against certain opponents, undead, evil dragons and anything with the evil subtype.
- armor training would have been nice, even more so than the fighter a paladin is the traditional knight in fullplate armor. this could replace the AC bonus during smites imo making the paladin less of a one-trick pony.
- I rather have smite infuse a single weapon of the paladin to discourage two-weapon fighting paladins.
ofcourse I do not expect paizo to reprint their core rulebook, but these are some things I am considering for paladins in my own campaign. feel free to comment ^^
My problem has nothing to do with cultural differnces.. It's more that delivering such a powerful blow should not be done from the safety of range.The wizard, wildshaping bird druid caster, the flight hex witch, flying draconic, celestial or abyssal sorcerors, and the wind oracle.
I really don't know why people are so up in arms flipping out about paladin smite damage when a wizard can cast sleep, run up and machine-gun coup de grace up to four opponents right out of the gates at level one. He's not doing like massive damage (unless he wants to) but he can still stop entire encounters with a single application of a high DC spell and a low roll on a d20.
Because that's not what Paladins are supposed to do. Unlike the other classes they've got high armor and shields, they've got a tremendous battle attack against evil, they can heal themselves with swift actions in the midst of battle, it's clearly a class intended to be the thick of things when it's time to deliver the smackdown.
BTW Coup-de-grace has always been a standard action. Even machine gun wizard can only do one per round assuming all the other conditions have been met. And it's not an auto-kill any more.
So it's fine for the wizard to overpower the paladin, as long as the paladin doesn't overstep his fluff... :P
Coup-de-grace is a full-round action. Sleep lasts 1 minute at level one. Sleep, four people fail their saves, the wizard moves forward and draws his scythe. 5 rounds left. I coup de grace, automatically hitting and critting for 8d4 and you make a saving throw equal to 10+ the damage, so around 16~ ish. DC 26 saving throw. First level character or monster with 1 HD has maybe a ~+5 if it's a fort-focused character.
DC 26 with a +5... I might as well be swinging an auto-kill. You have a 5% chance to survive that, and even as a 1st level monster, I probably dropped you into bleeding out. A fighter has what, 13 HP? 14?
The noise doesn't wake the other slept creatures up, so I spend each round five foot stepping and coup de gracing. I have an extra round in case I have to take a move inbetween.
This is all assuming they all fail the pathetic DC 14 save against it... but this is all completely off topic anyways.
@ Ice Titan:
Off topic:
I haven't had much of problem with Smite Evil. No plays Paladins in my group. In fact they've sort unofficially banned the Paladin due the the Alignment issue it causes. If some decided to play a Paladin they be strongly discouraged from doing so by the rest of the group.
But as far as smite goes it's easy to mitigate it from taking over the game at high levels by avoiding single BBEG encounters. This is a good idea even if you don't have a Paladin in the group because group vs 1 BBEG is just too easy in most instances. Also don't play with everything at the default alignment. That supposedly evil red dragon could be just neutral but a danger due it's greed and predatory nature.
Because that's not what Paladins are supposed to do. Unlike the other classes they've got high armor and shields, they've got a tremendous battle attack against evil, they can heal themselves with swift actions in the midst of battle, it's clearly a class intended to be the thick of things when it's time to deliver the smackdown.
Do you ban archer fighters, too? They've got high armor and shields, lots of abilities to increase their AC, and bonuses against fear effects, it's clearly blah, blah, blah.
@ anthony Valente
More OT BS:
I'm just saying that right out of the gates the wizard has the potential to instantly end fights. It becomes more apparent as time passes, with color spray, hold person, black tentacles, dominate person, etc. etc. etc. and time stop.
Whatever damage the paladin could do versus the BBEG devil doesn't matter when the diviner wizard draws his finger and hits him with a hold monster in the surprise round, or when the infernal sorceror slips into the dragon's sanctum and heightens a hideous laughter at him. Add on that tanking a will save is much more likely than confirming a critical on a high AC target and it makes the paladin's ability to crush bad guys pale in comparison to the wizard's ability to crush everyone.
Which comes round about to me saying, again, I don't know why everyone is so up in arms or set-in-stone negative about things like breaking DR or double damage on smite when a caster can break all DR with his energy attacks all of the time, rolls almost all of his attacks versus the oft-lowest AC and doesn't need to worry about the melee AoO shuffle.
And then at high level, sure, the paladin can smite like five enemies at once, some for +32 damage instead of +17, but the wizard can spectral hand a plane shift and send you to another dimension to become someone else's problem, or reverse gravity you and all of your friends through a prismatic wall. What's the point of arguing damage semantics when you just sent the BBEG to Xovaikain?
@ Ice Titan
Look, I get your point. A wizard will on occasion trivialize a BBEG encounter. But a paladin will with great consistency trivialize a BBEG dragon, undead, or evil outsider. So what if he does it in two or three rounds instead of one. The encounter was still trivial and non-challenging.
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Smite Evil has been Errat'ed as follows:
n the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows.
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
So the Paladin is now only awesome on their first strike against their major enemies and back to normal smite on the others.
Here's a thought, combining some of the things people have discussed to a possible fix. Not saying that I've actually applied this or that I'm even considering it, but it seemed interesting, so I wonder what people think. Consider the following
Smite Evil adds Charisma to hit and AC and makes the attack count as Good, Magic, and Lawful. It does not add bonus damage.
Paladins strike with the wrath of heaven against evil foes. They may always add half their class level to damage rolls against evil foes, and double that against evil outsiders, undead, and dragons.
So in net, damage bonus is halved all around but applied at all times.
......The paladin is likely the strongest fighting class. But I dont have a problem with that. Its still not the strongest class. I assure you if you had a druid, battle cleric, wizard, beguiler, Summoner party you will be begging to have your 2 paladins back. The difference is this power is coming from someone swinging a sword, which people arent used to. To me at least, it's refreshing.+1 This is it. I have yet to deal with a paladin that can put me through the mental gymnastics a well played caster can, and has done.Obviously there are a lot of people that don't agree with you.
If you wade through that other thread, you will be given all the arguments why. Me, I think it's clear why the smite/the Paladin needs to be nerfed. How is another matter.
Aura of Justice maybe, but Smite itself has not been an issue yet. I can't comment on Aura of Justice from experience because I have not experience with it. I do think it looks overpowered on paper, but I would rather see it first hand than dismiss it from hearsay.
something about trivializing a dragon encounter
I have yet to see a dragon BBEG be trivialized by one character. If played to 100% effectiveness(DM not holding back) the paladin does not own the BBEG dragon EVER.
He might be an issue with the help from a wizard;s buff, but that is partly because of the wizard(buffer) also.
Smite Evil has been Errat'ed as follows:
So the Paladin is now only awesome on their first strike against their major enemies and back to normal smite on the others.n the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows.
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
I think allowing them to spend 2 smites for double damage would be sufficient. That way when the party is really in trouble they can try to save the day.
Edit: I thought that was an opinion. Now I see it is official errata.
Edit2: I would rather have had Aura of Justice changed. Oh well I guess that is what house rules might be for if it becomes an issue.