It'd be easier if the base system was 'system neutral'. Whomever decides to use it can build onto it from there to give it their own spin. Which is what I'm wanting to see happen.
It'd be easier if the base system was 'system neutral'. Whomever decides to use it can build onto it from there to give it their own spin. Which is what I'm wanting to see happen.
I agree overall. My thought was to suggest a possible "organic" approach that allowed the system to evolve gradually from the soil of an existing, increasingly popular system.
The full-blown, independent P20 system could then mature from elements play-tested and marketed through the established system that provides the added benefit of earning money in its own right on the way toward full realization of the goal of an independent system.
It's not the ideal approach, but it (or something like it) may provide a practical approach given the current set of financial limitations with the project.
One possible approach would be to develop a kind of Unearthed Arcana product, perhaps one article at a time, that contained alternate core classes along the lines of base classes from d20 Modern, the introduction of a talent tree system into the existing Pathfinder RPG, a tech level system, alternate class features, feats, skills and so forth.
These elements could be used by creative GMs to advance the history line of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting into the near-modern or modern age. The materials would represent alternate rules, ala Unearthed Arcana, and would make no pretense of remaining completely "true" to the overall mechanics system of the current Pathfinder RPG.
Golarion is Paizo's intellectual property. I highly doubt they'd allow it to be used by a third party publisher.
Golarion is Paizo's intellectual property. I highly doubt they'd allow it to be used by a third party publisher.
Two words.
Open. Design.
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Golarion is Paizo's intellectual property. I highly doubt they'd allow it to be used by a third party publisher.Two words.
Open. Design.
I agree with you both. Yet I'm wondering if Paizo would have issues with Golarion being spun into a modern setting since technically it would be a different world than what they currently present. I see it as similar to what was done by Rich Wulf in his version of Rokugan 2000, which was a futuristic version of Legend of the Five Rings. Granted at the time it was first created it was a fan product and wasn’t done for profit. As long as the map wasn’t exactly the same, everything stayed in the future tense, didn’t reference any Paizo IP, didn’t call itself Pathfinder or crossed any other boundaries it seems like it wouldn’t be a problem. Paizo might be willing to license it on those grounds assuming they aren’t considering the idea themselves.
Though to be honest it would a lot less of a headache if they just made a new setting for it.
Though to be honest it would a lot less of a headache if they just made a new setting for it.
That's my stance. I was just pointing out to TAD that something had been done in conjunction with Golarion from a 3PP cooperating with Paizo.
That's my stance. I was just pointing out to TAD that something had been done in conjunction with Golarion from a 3PP cooperating with Paizo.Yes, but that was Wolfgang! ;-)
He's just one crafty kobold that has incriminating photos that someone @ Paizo cannot afford to be leaked onto the Internet!
But who....
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As promised, I'm giving you all an update.
Obviously having things ready for Paizo Con and Origins back-to-back takes time and effort, so we haven't managed to do much on this for the past three weeks. What we HAVE done is set a rough internal timetable to release a statement about what we'd done before, and what we still plan to do.
We hope the official statement will be out before too long. We promise to have it out before Gen Con.
I'll keep doing updates roughly weekly, so you all know we haven't forgotten you, or given up on this.
Owen
Pathfinder developer
SGG
<calls off the ninjas>
<calls off the ninjas>
we all know 'calls off the ninjas' is really the signal for 'remain vigilant and note the location of their loved ones. My patience wears thin and we may strike soon.'
we all know 'calls off the ninjas' is really the signal for 'remain vigilant and note the location of their loved ones. My patience wears thin and we may strike soon.'<calls off the ninjas>
On counsel’s advice, I invoke my right under the Fifth Amendment not to answer, on the grounds I may incriminate myself.
Here's a thought, and maybe it's been considered before, but I'm new to the discussion of P20.
What if Golarion were to experience a major technological advance? The folks at SGG could develop weekly materials for use with the existing Pathfinder RPG that advanced the timeline of Golarion (and tech level) a couple thousand years. These supplements would gradually introduce d20 modern elements into the existing corpus of Pathfinder materials and allow for creative, gradual playtesting of certain conversion concepts, while, at the same time, building excitement (and hopefully revenue) for the P20 project.
I can envision a line of companion-like supplements, perhaps even an adventure path of world-sweeping proportions, that changed the sociological and perhaps even cosmological face of Golarion.
Naturally, such an effort would have to be done in collaboration with Paizo since it would involve use of their copyrighted sandbox. Perhaps there's too much legalistic red tape in this regard, but, then again, perhaps not.
ps. I'm also down for buying whatever gets created in this direction.
I've been pondering this for a few days and I think you're actually on to something here. As others have pointed out, there are some potential IP problems with advancing Golarion along a timeline. Also, I think that advancing any particular setting along an accelerated historical timeline is probably not the best way to reach the desired goal.
However, the general idea of incremental development has a lot of promise.
I thought about the classes in d20 Star Wars, and it occurred to me that most of the core classes (Jedi being a notable exception) would work pretty darn well if you dropped them into a modern setting with only minor tweaking. Furthermore, some of the classes are almost identical to D&D counterparts: the biggest difference between the RCR Soldier and the 3.5 Fighter are the starting weapon proficiencies. Likewise, the RCR Scoundrel is very much like the Rogue. It would only take some very minimal modification to use PFRPG to play in modern settings: a few additional skills and feats, new uses for several existing skills, new weapons and equipment, and tweaks to make some of the core classes to fit the new skills, feats, weapons, and equipment (to start with: Fighter, Rogue, and two to four others). It should be possible to have a relatively small supplement that makes PFRPG playable in modern settings, albeit in a rather limited fashion.
Subsequent supplements could flesh out the system further: SGG already has a history of adding new core classes to PFRPG, so why not make some of them appropriate to a modern setting? As I already discussed, some core classes will transcend time-periods or genres with just minor tweaking. Other core classes will probably remain suitable to only a limited range of time periods or genres. Every new core class could come with a list of options for different time periods or genres: "use as-is," "use with the following modifications," or "not recommended for use in this time period/genre."
Other supplements could add more monsters/adversaries, or more weapons and equipment. Piece-by-piece, one weekly pdf at a time, it would be possible to expand PFRPG to include a wide variety of time periods and genres.
Dont suppose there is anything to report here yet from the geniuses? I am doing my best to wait patiently...it isnt working.
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Dont suppose there is anything to report here yet from the geniuses? I am doing my best to wait patiently...it isnt working.
Work continues behind the scenes. In those rare moments when we aren't consumed by writing new books, looking at print quotes, juggling freelance proposals, weighing new business plans, and trying to get hot models to take pictures in bikinis for upcoming projects.
Or stuff *like* that, anyway.
There really is an announcement of our plans in the works, but wow "in the works" can cover a lot of ground.
Dont suppose there is anything to report here yet from the geniuses? I am doing my best to wait patiently...it isnt working.Work continues behind the scenes. In those rare moments when we aren't consumed by writing new books, looking at print quotes, juggling freelance proposals, weighing new business plans, and trying to get hot models to take pictures in bikinis for upcoming projects.
Or stuff *like* that, anyway.
There really is an announcement of our plans in the works, but wow "in the works" can cover a lot of ground.
I am glad it's not forgotten, im just as always antsy. I'm not at the stage where i want to start working on my next campaign(running it is still months off since im in the middle of my current one, but i like to plan ahead). And it is going to be one of two choices, both of which requires alot of modern material. I am doing my best to put of deciding on a plan untill i at least get the anouncment of your plan, because if its going to exist i am almost certainly going to want to use p20 modern instead of doing all the conversion myself.
Why not develop the system first through community involvement, like Pathfinder RPG did, and then worry about raising funds to publish?
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Why not develop the system first through community involvement, like Pathfinder RPG did, and then worry about raising funds to publish?
The Pathfinder RPG was written by full-time writers paid to do so by a business making money through sales of existing products. And they knew, in advance of writing it, that they themselves had the money to print it. It was a risk they budgeted, and knew what the potential payoff was.
I am a full-time writer, but SGG only has money when my products are bought. My freelance for other companies pays me only if I write new products, as I receive no royalties. I can not take a few months off to produce something, with no new products being written, with no idea if the thing I'm taking time to write will ever print, or how much money it'll make when it does.
Sadly, I have to arrange for my time to be paid for, and know exactly how much potential money I am risking my time for. If we can't create a budget that covers our expenses one way or another, we can't write the P20 Modern book, however much we might want to.
Kobold Press
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Much as I hate to say it, some projects are not viable for a small company in a tough market like RPGs.
I'm hoping some smaller, black & white interior, softcover of the P20 project is still possible, and I'll look forward to hearing about these nebulous "plans" when you're ready to announce them!
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Hey folks.
As promised, I'm updating this thread about Super Genius Games' movement toward releasing a statement outlining our plan to make a second try at some sort of P20 Modern game project.
We got eaten by the San Diego Comic Con (Stan! went) and Gen Con prep. We're still working on it as much as we can, in-between fevered writing, editing, layout, and scheduling our Con time. We still plan to release a statement. Soonish. We thought we'd be there by now. We were wrong. we apologize.
Owen
Super Genius Games
*stops hyperventilating*
Something I could personally make use of that could lay the groundwork for P20 products in an incremental fashion would be a new arms and equipment guide straight from the foundries and smithies of Alkenstar. Some super-genius engineer there has discovered the principle of replaceable, standardized parts in the fabrication of firearms. The Aspis Consortium, always seeking new and innovative ways to expand their markets through arms dealing, has supplied generous funding for initial production and a distribution contract.
Naturally Taldor, with its bottomless cash reserves and dwindling power, seeks an agreement with the Aspis Consortium, but Cheliax, fearing this power, doesn't want to be left behind in this new arms race either.
Viola! The age of gunpowder has begun in force. Of course, not to be left behind, spies for the Technic League steal knowledge of these weapons from Alkenstar and, combined with their advanced metallurgical knowledge, make rapid improvements of their own.
All of which could fill the pages of a standard Pathfinder supplement introducing players to the wonders of Three-Musketeeresque adventures, while also developing some more mechanics for a more modern setting. The supplement could include new feats, for example, similar to the firearms combat feats of d20 Modern.
Hey Folks,
Despite our best efforts, we're not going to get a statement about our hopes and plans for P20 modern out before Gen Con. This is our first Gen Con as Pathfinder 3pp, and Stan! and I are both Industry Insider Guests of Honor for the Con, and we simply got overwhelmed by the prep that needs to be done (in my case, needs to be done before about noon tomorrow, when I hit the road).
We might have made it... but some amazing opportunities came along and demanded we spend hours working on them. Those are things we may be able to announce at Gen Con, but sadly none of the are P20 modern related.
We're not done with this... we're just pinched as we try to put out the products that pay the bills, plan for new lines, and take advantage of the amazing stuff that sometimes comes along.
We'll keep throwing updates in here, even when they are "we don;t have anything yet" so Urizen keeps breathing.
And if you'll be at Gen Con, looks us up! We'll be at the Paizo booth sometimes, and the Studio 2 booth sometimes, and Stan! and I have panels we'll be on.
Checking in! Still excited about the project, just haven't been around for a while...
I think i finally resigned myself to my next game being run in d20 modern again. Kind of sad really, but its time to start preping actual crunch. Here's hoping its my last game in the unupdated system.
Hello folks. It's time for the periodic "we don't have anything yet" post. :D
We've had some amazing opportunities come along and demand our time be taken from the P20 Modern development. For example, having Veronic do a shoot for the Time Thief was a great opportunity, and we needed to bump it up on our schedule. And I'd guess that by now most of you have heard the Super Genius Games is going to be doing work for the amazing Dungeon-A-Day site created by Monte Cook. That opportunity isn't something we planned for three months ago, and getting an agreement and an announcement ready by Gen Con has taken a lot of work. And that work isn't done, there are lots of details to put in place, and it means we're taking on more weekly design and production work, to add to the product-a-week schedule we've maintained since November of last year. that's a lot for three Geniuses to take on.
Of course, we're looking at ways to shift our business plan to accommodate our growth. Last week's product, Mythic Menagerie: Kingdom of Graves, was written by monster-master Sam Hing, and we have some more freelancer-designed products coming in the future. We have some more changes to internal processes going on that should allow us to take on this new workload, maintain everything we're already doing, keep up the quality, and eventually take time to develop new things. But that's going to take time, and that means P20 Modern gets put a bit further back.
I don't want to come off as complaining, the problems we have fall in the embarrassment of riches category, and they're great problems to have. But we realize SGG is at a delicate time in its evolution. If we are too cautious, we'll miss opportunities and lose the chance to break into new arenas. If we're too aggressive, we can't maintain the quality and quantity of products we want to produce. The Dungeon-A-Day deal is going to take some time to digest, and during that time I just don't see us having the spare resources to tackle another game development project. I'm itching to do that project, d20 Modern is one of my great loves, but I want to make sure I have time to do it right. And in this industry if you have a chance to work with Monte Cook, you take it.
In the long run, I think this is going to actually work out even better for our P20 Modern plans. If someone else beats us to the punch and produces a great game, we can just support it, If not, once we have digested our new responsibilities and have a good stable of freelancers we trust, we can take our bigger, wealthier company and try to do a better version of P20 than we could create if we focused on it right now. While I hate waiting, it really looks like the best way to tackle all the things we want to do right now.
That said, the Geniuses still talk P20 Modern in our spare time (it turns out you CAN give up sleep for a few days at a time). We have part of a design document, and when it's ready we'll unveil it. Then there will be an opportunity for friends and fans to comment on our goals and plans, and we'll get to refine our approach before we actually tackle the main development work. And if anyone has comments or questions, I'll be keeping on eye on this thread between my sporadic updates.
This project is still on my stovetop. I've just had to shove it onto the back burner for a bit.
wait last weeks project Mythic Menagerie: The Kingdom of Graves? If it was last weeks how come it is not up for sale here yet? Hmmm? Well?
As a result of the Con Crud getting me on my return from gen Con, MM:KoG went to layout really late last week. By the time it was done, there were issues with the Paizo uploader. We went ahead and got it up on RPGNow, but won't have it on Paizo until early this week.
Which is a long-winded way of saying "it's my fault." :D
Well i more or less expected this when I heard about dungeon a day. I will find another way to run my modern games for the time being. I still have a few months to prep the game. I am hoping adamant's post apocalyptic game is solid. It wont have everything I need for sure, but hopefully it will have enough that I can fill in the gaps. I am happy for your guys doing well Owen, and honestly, I hope you guys grow to the point where P20 becomes a more manageable project as opposed to something on the very edge of what you can do as a company.
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As promised, here is an update on where Super Genius Games is with our "P 20" project.
This is still on our radar, but it's not getting any closer right now. Even though we are getting a handle on how to maintain both our weekly Genius PDF and the new work on Dungeon-A-Day, we've found we just can't carve out time to go from the bullet-point list of how we'll handle this differently next time around, to a lucid statement we can release to fans. Partly this is because Hyrum is moving to Seattle, and having our business manager and whip-cracker spending most of his time packing boxes turns out NOT to increase spare time.
There are things still in process we hope will fix our time crunch. I'm beginning to take freelancer ideas for Genius books, and our first two (by the amazing Sam Hing and Marc Radle) have been very well received. That said, my developer hat is not as well-worn as my writer hat, so I'm not yet maximizing the benefits of having great talent do a lot of the heavy lifting. As with anything, I expect experience will improve my performance on that front.
We also got contracted to produce a Previously Totally Unannounced Super Secret Project for another company, which is a cash-on-the-barrel deal we decided we couldn't turn down. Having more money in our war chest should help us deal with things like a Genius moving 2 states north if such events jump us in the future, so it's worth the extra work now.
We're also looking at adding an intern, and maybe even a Beta Reader, to help with organization and keeping the overall quality level high.
When we do get this project rolling forward, we're gong to have an outline on how we plan to handle a lot of the big questions. Those won't be fully designed, but a lot of people seemed more interested in being told what we had in mind than having input on such issues, so our blueprint is going to be stronger than last time. And some of those questions are still very much in the forefront of my design choices and playtesting (the whole archetypes books came from an idea I originally had for P20 Modern). So once we can carve out the time, some elements may go more quickly than if we'd tried this three months ago.
And, form time to time, I'll pop in here and update everyone on where we are, and how it's going.
Thanks for the update, Owen. =)
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We're also looking at adding an intern, and maybe even a Beta Reader, to help with organization and keeping the overall quality level high.
How can I apply for either of those jobs, Owen? I have some pretty decent experience in User Acceptance Testing/Project Management from within the corporate world. And I'm a rockin' proofreader.
And, form time to time, I'll pop in here and update everyone on where we are, and how it's going.
See? ;-)
I kid, I kid... but seriously, I'll work for free. I just want to get into the industry somehow.
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We're also looking at adding an intern, and maybe even a Beta Reader, to help with organization and keeping the overall quality level high.
How can I apply for either of those jobs, Owen? I have some pretty decent experience in User Acceptance Testing/Project Management from within the corporate world. And I'm a rockin' proofreader.
Our intern position is going to get filled by one of the people we've already talked to.
Beta reader, however, is still pretty vague right now. But I'm pretty sure it's going to happen. It'll be someone who gets advance looks at our products, and is asked to read through them very, very quickly. Often we'd need a 1 or 2 day turnover. It's unpaid, but comes with free copies of everything you read (both advance versions and final).
While I wasn't meaning to recruit here, anyone who is really interested in applying for Beta reader position can email me at OStephens [at] aol.com.
We're also looking at adding an intern, and maybe even a Beta Reader, to help with organization and keeping the overall quality level high.How can I apply for either of those jobs, Owen? I have some pretty decent experience in User Acceptance Testing/Project Management from within the corporate world. And I'm a rockin' proofreader.Our intern position is going to get filled by one of the people we've already talked to.
Beta reader, however, is still pretty vague right now. But I'm pretty sure it's going to happen. It'll be someone who gets advance looks at our products, and is asked to read through them very, very quickly. Often we'd need a 1 or 2 day turnover. It's unpaid, but comes with free copies of everything you read (both advance versions and final).
While I wasn't meaning to recruit here, anyone who is really interested in applying for Beta reader position can email me at OStephens [at] aol.com.
I'll email you when I get home from work today (dont have access to my personal email at work). I would definately be interested in this.
On the off chance that anybody is still watching this thread, I figured I'd link to some news that I think some people would find interesting:
Avalon Games is about to release a Pathfinder-compatible sci-fi game titled Infinite Futures.
A lot of people on this thread (and the original P20 Modern thread) expressed a desire for the P20 Modern project to cover sci-fi as well as modern. Well, P20 Modern may be on hold, but at least now there will be a sci-fi system available. P20 Modern has now essentially been bracketed: Pathfinder in the "past" and Infinite Futures in the "future," with P20 Modern in-between.
A free preview is currently available for download at RPGnow.
I just finished reading through it, and all I can say is that I hope that a whole lot of editing happens before the final release: spelling errors abounded, I saw more sentences with improper grammar than not (mixed tense and mixed plural/singular were especially common), and many of the sentences with correct grammar were nonetheless difficult to parse because of awkwardly phrased prose. On the plus side, the artwork was very impressive and the layout looked professional. There simply wasn't enough content in the preview to be able to tell how well designed and balanced the rules are, but I'm holding out hope. I can put up with bad writing as long as the underlying mechanics work right. I'll most likely end up buying this when it first comes out, because that will be the only way to know for sure.
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Just curious if anything ever came of this. It has been the better part of a year. While I am not a huge fan of d20 modern. I do like scifi and especially would love to see a PFRPG D20 Steampunk book, which I realize would come after a modern book.
Currently I'm taking a lot of the ideas I was going to develop for "P20 Modern" and working them into Anachronistic Adventurer products. Only one of those (The Enforcer) is out, but more are in playtesting and development right now.
I have six books planned, each with a class, a rules module (such as the firearms and progress level rules in Enforcer), and some equipment. Once all six are out, I'll be looking at what it would take to turn that into a whole setting book.
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Just curious if anything ever came of this. It has been the better part of a year. While I am not a huge fan of d20 modern. I do like scifi and especially would love to see a PFRPG D20 Steampunk book, which I realize would come after a modern book.Currently I'm taking a lot of the ideas I was going to develop for "P20 Modern" and working them into Anachronistic Adventurer products. Only one of those (The Enforcer) is out, but more are in playtesting and development right now.
I have six books planned, each with a class, a rules module (such as the firearms and progress level rules in Enforcer), and some equipment. Once all six are out, I'll be looking at what it would take to turn that into a whole setting book.
So we going to get a gadget class that gets a pool of points to make devices as long as the total doesn't go over their max pool. Letting them take things apart to put the pool points back in to make other items? :)
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So we going to get a gadget class that gets a pool of points to make devices as long as the total doesn't go over their max pool. Letting them take things apart to put the pool points back in to make other items? :)
The plan is to make that one of the modular options one of the classes can take, yes.
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So we going to get a gadget class that gets a pool of points to make devices as long as the total doesn't go over their max pool. Letting them take things apart to put the pool points back in to make other items? :)The plan is to make that one of the modular options one of the classes can take, yes.
So where is it? :)
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So where is it? :)So we going to get a gadget class that gets a pool of points to make devices as long as the total doesn't go over their max pool. Letting them take things apart to put the pool points back in to make other items? :)The plan is to make that one of the modular options one of the classes can take, yes.
+1
I picked up the Enforcer when it came out. Interesting concept!
So where is it? :)So we going to get a gadget class that gets a pool of points to make devices as long as the total doesn't go over their max pool. Letting them take things apart to put the pool points back in to make other items? :)The plan is to make that one of the modular options one of the classes can take, yes.
I also echo this point. It has been a while. So, where is it?
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Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games
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The original implementation didn't make it through playtesting. Instead I ended up doing the Inventor, in Anachronistic Adventurers: The Investigator.
I still hope to do a gadgetmaster archetype, likely based on the spageric devices rules in Advanced Options: Alchemists’ Discoveries. But at this point, that'll likely be in either an Anachronistic Archetypes book, or in a modern roleplaying supplement that compiles and expands the Anachronistic rules.