Greetings, all!
As you clearly know by now, the Super Genius Games' P20 Modern fundraising effort on kickstarter.com didn't quite reach its funding goal.
Okay ... okay ... it missed by over 85% ... but it was an AMBITIOUS goal. We HOPED we could raise $70,000.00 because that was what was required for Super Genius Games to produce a top of the line, premium core rulebook on the level of the Pathfinder core book or the D20 Modern core book -- 300+ pages, hardcover, full color throughout -- a book that stood on its own and was the cornerstone of a potential line of modern RPG products. That's more than just what we wanted to make ... that's what YOU told us you wanted us to make (based on discussions in the Paizo forum, our website, and private email). A grand vision, indeed.
Like we said ... ambitious. And necessarily very expensive.
We hoped that by going to the patronage model we could find a large pool of gamers who wanted to see this type of game on the market and were enthusiastic enough to pledge various amounts of money in order to make it happen and be part of the process. We were, I have to say, very successful in at least part of that -- we found a VERY dedicated and generous group of gamers who WERE willing to take a chance and pledge their money and their participation, and we are immeasurably thankful to all of you.
In the end, though, despite your enthusiasm and generosity, there just wasn't enough of a groundswell among the broader base of gamers to reach our goal. And so the project is done ... wait ... no it isn't!
As we said above, this was our plan for making one particular product, the highest-end version of a modern RPG. There yet remain a plethora of different ways we could approach the goal of making a new, updated, OGL-based Modern RPG. And, as we hinted at in some of the episodes of the Super Genius Radio podcast, we've already given some thought as to what those are and how we could redirect our efforts in that direction. And we do so having gained important knowledge from our first go 'round. Now that the initial fundraising effort is done, here are some of the things we're using to shape our next plan:
* Even though the funding goal seemed out of reach, we had people continuing to donate until the final day. This tells us that the patrons are passionate and will likely be interested in a modified revision of the plan.
* All told, patrons pledged over $9,000.00 in the first drive.
* Through the Paizo message boards, the Super Genius Games Yahoo Group, Facebook, and our individual blogs and email, we've already got A LOT of direct feedback from the patrons about what they want to see in a new OGL-based Modern RPG.
Perhaps the biggest single piece of information is that $9,000 total. It gives us an idea of what range of funding we are likely to be able to achieve. And, with that plus the information we got from your feedback, we can put together a NEW plan ... one tailored to those parameters and offering a bit more detail to the potential patron.
Not only CAN we do that, we are CURRENTLY working on putting a new plan together, and it seems to be taking shape very nicely. In fact, it should be ready for release to the public sometime in the next 7–10 days. And, while most of the details remain in flux, we can tell you three of the parameters we're using while putting it together.
* Roughly a $10,000.00 budget. We hit $9k last time, and that was when the project seemed doomed not to reach full funding, so we figure it's a good target number for a revised project.
* Be specific. One of the biggest complaints we heard from people who decided NOT to pledge last time was that they weren't sure what we were going to do. Of course, one of the reasons we didn't give details was that we wanted to leave options open so the patrons could participate in developing the design parameters. Whatever our next project is, we will BEGIN with a basic set of goals and presumptions that will allow potential patrons to get a better idea of what the project will be like.
* Keep the past patrons in mind. You were generous and supportive in the initial fundraising effort, and we want to do our best to reward that. Exactly what that means will be dependent on what the project looks like AND what the premium offers in the new fundraising efforts are. Perhaps it will mean giving you first-option at some premiums, perhaps it will mean one or more premiums that are ONLY available to you ... at this point, we can't say. But we CAN say that our goal is to show our appreciation for your past support.
We're sad that the first fundraising effort didn't succeed. We very much would have liked to make that premium, full-color, hardcover core rulebook. But we're also VERY excited about the possibilities of this scaled down version of the project. Our phone conferences on the subject have been animated and full of optimism, ideas coming out almost faster than we can jot them down.
Once again, thank you for your support in the previous effort. And look for details about our revised plans in the next week to ten days.
-- The Geniuses
Keep looking! Keep watching the skies!
Can't wait!
DoD - Kev
<twitches from a lack of P20 Patronage meth...>
Be specific.
Yeah its funny with patronage projects you get that a lot. We got hit with that early on when I just announced that we had the Diceless licence right then and there.
I'm glad to see this project is still alive. Looking forward to supporting it.
Im still here, waiting and watching. I am looking forward to seeing what comes next.
|
I am still interested and would increase my pledge under certain circumstances.
However, I would like some clarification if possible. I was putting two and two together and realized that Hyrum was also involved in the Chill 3rd Ed project. What happened there? I can understand if the fundraising was unsuccessful and thus the project was shelved but either I missed that communication or it just wasn't explained to the people who were participating.
Thanks,
|
Well, as disappointed as I am that the previous project didn't make the cut (which is obviously not anyone's fault), I am excited to see what this new direction is. You have my continued support in any way that I can manage it. I wish you guys the best of luck and look forward to where we go from here.
I am still interested and would increase my pledge under certain circumstances.
However, I would like some clarification if possible. I was putting two and two together and realized that Hyrum was also involved in the Chill 3rd Ed project. What happened there? I can understand if the fundraising was unsuccessful and thus the project was shelved but either I missed that communication or it just wasn't explained to the people who were participating.
Thanks,
Hey Avemar,
The Chill fundraising didn't reach it's goal and so we've had to step back from that project for the time being.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
|
|
Hyrum,
Thank you. May I suggest that you update the webpage and maybe make a post on the yahoo group with this information? Maybe you did already on a different venue and I didn't see it but my impression is that people are a bit anxious with the uncertainty. At least this will allow some closure for another chapter in the Chill saga.
Thanks again,
|
Also, I think the project needs more advertising.
Anyway to get the news of the project to the game shops?
We are already a niche hobby/society and there are so many places to find gamers on the internet. Need to get them all.
Try to get the project on some of the gaming podcasts too. And on the gamer blogs.
Also, I think the project needs more advertising.
Anyway to get the news of the project to the game shops?
We are already a niche hobby/society and there are so many places to find gamers on the internet. Need to get them all.Try to get the project on some of the gaming podcasts too. And on the gamer blogs.
Agreed. I think it would have helped a lot to have had flyers ready to go as soon as the kickstarter project launched: supporters could have put them up in gaming stores all over the place and probably brought in a lot of people who would otherwise never have known about the project.
Agreed. I think it would have helped a lot to have had flyers ready to go as soon as the kickstarter project launched: supporters could have put them up in gaming stores all over the place and probably brought in a lot of people who would otherwise never have known about the project.Also, I think the project needs more advertising.
Anyway to get the news of the project to the game shops?
We are already a niche hobby/society and there are so many places to find gamers on the internet. Need to get them all.Try to get the project on some of the gaming podcasts too. And on the gamer blogs.
My thought would be to get seed money and get post cards mailed out to gaming stores. Include a web address for those interested parties (a simple registered domain) where they can get more information from a centralized location, including the flyer. Aside from patrons providing LGS addresses, information can be mined from the Free RPG Day list for solicitation.
My thought would be to get seed money and get post cards mailed out to gaming stores. Include a web address for those interested parties (a simple registered domain) where they can get more information from a centralized location, including the flyer.
Hmmmmm ... that's DEFINITELY a good idea!
*scribble, scribble*
Duly noted.
My thought would be to get seed money and get post cards mailed out to gaming stores. Include a web address for those interested parties (a simple registered domain) where they can get more information from a centralized location, including the flyer.Hmmmmm ... that's DEFINITELY a good idea!
*scribble, scribble*
Duly noted.
I had a bunch more on the Yahoo Groups but no-one replied back to those. I'm full of it.
Good ideas, that is. :P
|
Well good luck... again. :) I will be interested in the final product, but I am not really a patron type person. I have no real desire to be involved in designing something or seeing how it's down. Though I might be open to a preorder to support a good product to get it off the ground. Like what Frog God Games is doing with Slumber Tsar adventures.
Well good luck... again. :) I will be interested in the final product, but I am not really a patron type person. I have no real desire to be involved in designing something or seeing how it's down. Though I might be open to a preorder to support a good product to get it off the ground. Like what Frog God Games is doing with Slumber Tsar adventures.
Well .... then consider your patronage a preorder. ;) I patronized the e20 Patronage that Gary Sarli did, but I can tell you I haven't been following up on the forums or offering suggestions (yet). There's a couple other projects that are being Kickstarted that I'm interested in. But I do want P20 Modern most of all right now. :D
|
|
Well the difference is on a preorder i know ahead of time roughly what it is I am getting. I only preorder stuff if I know or believe I will like it. With TS, i have the first one and know a little about the other two so I know what to expect from it.
If/when SGG puts up more information about it and if they offer such a option then I might. Either way it might be a good way after they get so far along in the project to have a second round of fund raising to improve the quality of art or what have you. Just something to consider.
1st round vs. 2nd round: I've made such suggestions to 'em, but it's ultimately whatever they intend to present.
But, m'dear ... they are ... GENIUSES!
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. These guys dare to erase that line to err on the side of awesome. ;)
Checking in...
|
|
I would love the idea of a "pathfinderized" modern game, and maybe I've missed something, but i am confused...
It seems that you want the fans/consumer base to first off completely fund the cost of development, then buy the book. that would result in 100% profit off of sales for supergenius, are you giving patrons a free copy of said product or say keeping a 10-20% development fee and dividing up the remainder of the profit to the "patrons" based on amount contributed?
|
|
I would love the idea of a "pathfinderized" modern game, and maybe I've missed something, but i am confused...
It seems that you want the fans/consumer base to first off completely fund the cost of development, then buy the book. that would result in 100% profit off of sales for super genius, are you giving patrons a free copy of said product or say keeping a 10-20% development fee and dividing up the remainder of the profit to the "patrons" based on amount contributed?
The idea of a patronage model is to allow consumers to pay for something prior to its existence, so it can exist. Essentially it's a pre-order of a book that isn't out yet. The money collected goes toward the cost of writing, developing, illustrating, editing, printing and shipping the book to the patrons. Often patrons are offered "bennies," things to convince them to sign up. In our case in the previous P20 modern project, we offered a number of premium options such as being in on the development discussion, having icon examples of classes based off patrons, signed books, and so on.
It's not a business model where patrons are investing for a return of profits. They are just putting money up-front, so a company can create something it can't afford to develop on its own budget. The patrons DO get a copy of the book without an additional cost if they pledge enough at the beginning. (A $50 pledge gets you a free print and pdf book. A $5 pledge is just a donation, and we only had that option available because people asked us to.) Some patron projects don't sell the final product outside the original patrons, but we intended to make ours available to general sale afterwards as well.
Mostly SGG is not a patronage model company. While there are several successful patronage businesses out there, and some that are a hybrid of patronage and traditional methods, SGG is largely a traditional model company. We produce short pdfs on a weekly basis, and are working on print versions with expanded and updated content.
But the P20 Modern project also didn't originate from our planning sessions. Both Stan! and I have extensive d20 Modern credits, so I can't say we never thought about it. But developing a core rulebook is a huge amount of work. Rewriting one to take advantage of new ideas in gaming, especially if you want to strike a balance between backwards-compatibility and compatibility with anew game (in our case d20 Modern and Pathfinder) is a massively time-consuming effort. I've been in on several rewrites, including being one of the major authors of the Star Wars Saga edition, and it's not really less work than writing one from scratch. In many ways, it's more work.
Writing RPGs is my full-time job. It's how I pay the rent and put food on the table. When I take on a freelance project, I do the writing and get paid prior to the book being sold. When I write a project on my own or as part of SGG, the money doesn't come in until the project is selling. For our weekly pdfs that's fine. I risk one week of work at a time, and if that project doesn't sell I still have income being made of sales of previous week's work. But a total rewrite and re-calibration of an RPG is going to take a lot more than one week. Likely 2 solid months work for all three of us, maybe more. We can't go that long without new income, so we had figured we weren't going to be the ones to do this idea.
But a lot of fans had other ideas. We were asked if we could do it as a patronage project, where we'd take money up front to write it. And since we need to provide a finished product when we were done, we needed to also budget in everything needed to complete the book – layout, editing, art, printing, shipping and so on. And fans told us they really, really wanted this, and they wanted it to be a linchpin project. A book that could support a whole new line of modern adventures and supplements. We tested the waters, got some feedback, and gave it a try. Because that's what fans wanted.
That budget was huge. We knew that, but we wanted to give the market a chance to fund this project. If enough people really wanted this, we could make it happen. And since no one was charged any money if the project didn't happen, we were willing to take our time to put together the elements needed to set it up in advance. We did raise thousands of dollars, but not the huge sum needed to so this as a complete, independent, premium project. That's sad, but I'd be lying if I said I was shocked.
We DO know that there is still interest out there, and we've learned some from the process. So we are working on something less complete and premium, that could be done on more like the budget we actually saw raised. It's taking some time to mail down that project, but we'll make announcements with more details as soon as we can. People who supported us before will certainly be considered, and word will show both on our Yahoo group and here.
What we'll offer will be a chance to pre-order a book we haven't written yet. We'll have a much tighter focus this time, so while patrons will still be able to get involved, we're going to have a clearer description of what the final product will look like up front. And the base level will get patrons playtest pdfs, beta pdfs, and a print version of the final book at no further cost.
I hope that answers your question! If anyone has more questions about the project, please don't hesitate to chime in and we'll do out best to respond to them.
That sounds like a very reasonable approach. Once you make the announcement you can expect two pre-orders from me.
That reminds me, SGG guys, I dont know what exactly you are planning, but you may want to consider making one of the patronage levels 2 books or something of that sort. Many of us purchase more then 1 core book (particularly for DM's, 1 for you and 1 for the group sort of thing). Having a patronage level or levels that includes more then one copy of the rulebook (obviously for a greater donation/cost whatever you wish to call it) would be nice.
Come, get down with the sickness...... I am down for Pathfinder Modern. Just let me know when to sign on the dotted line. Dawning Star must live, and there doesn't seem to be another system out there through which it can live. For advertisement I recommend getting on the podcast circuit. Accidental Survivors, D20 Radio, the brilliant gameologist...anyone who will have you on for 15 minutes to talk about this project. Standing by to sign on.
Salcor
|
|
That reminds me, SGG guys, I dont know what exactly you are planning, but you may want to consider making one of the patronage levels 2 books or something of that sort.
This is a good idea, as are many others just posted. We'll certainly look at all of them, and I'm sure we'll implement some of them!
That reminds me, SGG guys, I dont know what exactly you are planning, but you may want to consider making one of the patronage levels 2 books or something of that sort.This is a good idea, as are many others just posted. We'll certainly look at all of them, and I'm sure we'll implement some of them!
Did you Geniuses manage to look at what I sent out in the Yahoo forums? I haven't received any responses, but I hope that some of my ideas pitched were palatable.
Did you Geniuses manage to look at what I sent out in the Yahoo forums? I haven't received any responses, but I hope that some of my ideas pitched were palatable.
Yup. Hyrum and I were just talking about your suggestions over lunch today. Some of them match things we already had planned, some of them are even now being written into our plans, and some of which present larger logistical challenges.
Thanks for the excellent input ... and I bet you'll see at least shades of your suggestions in our efforts to promote and market the next fundraising drive AND the eventual book.
some of which present larger logistical challenges.
I'd be curious to hear/read which ones these were over in the group forums. Maybe I need to explain myself better if something poses 'logistical challenges'.
Nevertheless, I'm along for the ride! :D
|
I just purchased the guide to Dragonriders, and if the quality of that PDF is indicative of the work that you guys will be doing with a modern (or any) book, then I just have to say sign me up :D. I've been wary of 3pp stuff, and have typically shied away from it (and prevented my players from using it as well), but I'm seriously considering allowing your stuff into my games. It seems balanced, well thought out, and a welcome addition to the PFRPG core rules.
My thought would be to get seed money and get post cards mailed out to gaming stores. Include a web address for those interested parties (a simple registered domain) where they can get more information from a centralized location, including the flyer.Hmmmmm ... that's DEFINITELY a good idea!
*scribble, scribble*
Duly noted.
Yes. yes you are. But you do not have to state the obvious to us. ~Grins and runs~
I just purchased the guide to Dragonriders, and if the quality of that PDF is indicative of the work that you guys will be doing with a modern (or any) book, then I just have to say sign me up :D. I've been wary of 3pp stuff, and have typically shied away from it (and prevented my players from using it as well), but I'm seriously considering allowing your stuff into my games. It seems balanced, well thought out, and a welcome addition to the PFRPG core rules.
Welcome aboard! We're counting on you to be around for round two! :D
Yes. yes you are. But you do not have to state the obvious to us. ~Grins and runs~
I will get you, dragon. There will be no parley. I will strike you down with a lightsaber. Make no mistake. :P
|
|
I just purchased the guide to Dragonriders, and if the quality of that PDF is indicative of the work that you guys will be doing with a modern (or any) book, then I just have to say sign me up :D. I've been wary of 3pp stuff, and have typically shied away from it (and prevented my players from using it as well), but I'm seriously considering allowing your stuff into my games. It seems balanced, well thought out, and a welcome addition to the PFRPG core rules.
Don't know about Dragonriders, i don't have that one. But I do have a lot of their other stuff and typically it is top notch stuff.
I just purchased the guide to Dragonriders, and if the quality of that PDF is indicative of the work that you guys will be doing with a modern (or any) book, then I just have to say sign me up :D. I've been wary of 3pp stuff, and have typically shied away from it (and prevented my players from using it as well), but I'm seriously considering allowing your stuff into my games. It seems balanced, well thought out, and a welcome addition to the PFRPG core rules.
Thanks Xpltvdeleted! Being allowed at a GM's table is the highest honor for a publisher. Thanks for making my morning. :)
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
|
|
I just purchased the guide to Dragonriders, and if the quality of that PDF is indicative of the work that you guys will be doing with a modern (or any) book, then I just have to say sign me up :D. I've been wary of 3pp stuff, and have typically shied away from it (and prevented my players from using it as well), but I'm seriously considering allowing your stuff into my games. It seems balanced, well thought out, and a welcome addition to the PFRPG core rules.Thanks Xpltvdeleted! Being allowed at a GM's table is the highest honor for a publisher. Thanks for making my morning. :)
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
Don't thank me, you guys are the ones putting out the great product! If anything, I should be thanking you for opening up more options at my table!
I just purchased the guide to Dragonriders, and if the quality of that PDF is indicative of the work that you guys will be doing with a modern (or any) book, then I just have to say sign me up :D. I've been wary of 3pp stuff, and have typically shied away from it (and prevented my players from using it as well), but I'm seriously considering allowing your stuff into my games. It seems balanced, well thought out, and a welcome addition to the PFRPG core rules.
If you liked the dragon rider you will like most of their material. I'd say the quality is extremely consistent. I am also usually wary of 3pp stuff. But supergenius has gotten a blanket OK untill further notice from me at my table. And normally I dont even do that with a system's core rules.
If you liked the dragon rider you will like most of their material. I'd say the quality is extremely consistent. I am also usually wary of 3pp stuff. But supergenius has gotten a blanket OK untill further notice from me at my table. And normally I dont even do that with a system's core rules.
SGG has the only unlimited allow at my game tables too. We use a bunch of their stuff, and it's all excellent. On top of that, it's often written with an eye for giving the DM advice on how to use it in a campaign, which is awesome.
Players now bring new spells and feats from Super Genius to my game, for example, and I dont have to carefully vet them in advance. It's a huge timesaver, and a lot of fun.
(If you get the Paizo newsletter, look at the Top Downloads from Other Companies some time. KQ, some paper minis, and the rest is nearly all SGG. And that's been true for a long time.)
*clears throat* AHEM!
Thanks!
*clears throat* AHEM!
I think Urizen tried to be a little too subtle, so I'll go for blunt:
Please keep posting updates here. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one obsessively checking this thread on a daily basis, and a little bit more from the Super Geniuses would go a long way towards keeping the obsessive fans calm. Even if your updates are nothing more than a "heartbeat" (e.g. "We're still here, we're still working on it, we'll try to have more details for you next week"), I think it would be greatly appreciated by all. We all understand that you are very busy; we all are confident that you are working on this to the best of your abilities; we all know that as soon as you have a plan, you will post it immediately. However, despite all of that, it's still hard to sit around in the dark waiting.
A little bit more insight into the process is all I'm asking for. I'm sure there are some very good reasons why your new plan for moving forward isn't ready for public release: I, for one, would like to know a little bit about those reasons and a possible timeline for resolving them. I'm not asking for detailed minutes of your meetings on the subject, just a very general summary (even if it has to be extremely vague) and a best guesstimate as to how long the remaining issues will take to resolve.
A lot of us pledged money because we wanted to feel involved. Right now we don't. Even though low-content updates might sound silly and not especially useful, they will help us to feel more involved. Well, me at least, but I'd be willing to bet that others feel the same way.
|
|
"We're still here, we're still working on it, we'll try to have more details for you... ASAP?"
So, why this isn't Ready For Prime Time yet:
The Con Season is upon us. Right Now, Stan! and Hyrum are at PaizoCon. And I'm not. So, obviously, today I hate them, and we can't discuss details at all. Even if that weren't the case, getting ready for PaizoCon, and travel to it, and running a game while there, and selling out new print book of fantasy Pathfinder material, likely has the gents way to busy to talk to me anyway.
That print book took a lot of work, and we're not done with print. We have two more books in production, and that's a HUGE time sink. But we need to get our stuff into the hands of people who don't do the pdf-thing, and this is how.
And we're still producing a new pdf a week, every week, even when we're doing and planning cons. That takes a chunk of our time. And as soon as we can, we need to squeeze time in update some old pdfs with new material we created to augment them for the print book. And I don;t even know when that will happen yet.
Plus, there are some pretty major non-SGG things going on in all our lives. I'm sorry that digs into our SGG planning time, but it does. I didn't even make it to the planning call this week.
Plus, some new opportunities and interested parties have come along, and require our attention before we can decide for sure how to proceed. Evaluating someone else's proposal takes time, and it isn't fair to make them wait long before giving them a go/no go with us, so that kinda has to be at least a mid-range priority.
And I'm pretty sure as long as he's in Seattle, Stan! has some other designers he wants to talk to. I don't know that we expect that to go anywhere, but we need to remain flexible for great things to happen, and flexibility sometimes causes delays.
I AM sorry anyone has felt left out. That's not how we want to do thing, or interact with our fans. So, yes, I'll bop in here more often and let you know if there has been movement. But with two of use at Paizo Con and Gen Con looming and print deadlines marching up... it may be a bit before we can finalize Plan B. I don't WANT that to be the case, but reality has never much cared what I want. :D
More updates I can do. More progress may be beyond me for a bit. I'll do what I can., I promise.
Thank you very much! That was pretty much exactly what I was asking for. As I suspected, you all have a lot on your plate, and projects that pay the bills necessarily take precedence over projects that might make some money someday, maybe. I'm intrigued by your mention of proposals from others, and I look forward to hearing more when the time comes. In the meanwhile, I will keep myself busy by forming wild and unsubstantiated speculations about those proposals.
Here's a thought, and maybe it's been considered before, but I'm new to the discussion of P20.
What if Golarion were to experience a major technological advance? The folks at SGG could develop weekly materials for use with the existing Pathfinder RPG that advanced the timeline of Golarion (and tech level) a couple thousand years. These supplements would gradually introduce d20 modern elements into the existing corpus of Pathfinder materials and allow for creative, gradual playtesting of certain conversion concepts, while, at the same time, building excitement (and hopefully revenue) for the P20 project.
I can envision a line of companion-like supplements, perhaps even an adventure path of world-sweeping proportions, that changed the sociological and perhaps even cosmological face of Golarion.
Naturally, such an effort would have to be done in collaboration with Paizo since it would involve use of their copyrighted sandbox. Perhaps there's too much legalistic red tape in this regard, but, then again, perhaps not.
ps. I'm also down for buying whatever gets created in this direction.