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I am currently playing in a Ravenloft Game, using the pathfinder rule set. After speaking with the DM, my Wizard has made a Faustian Pact with a Devil, for some items, and to be turned into a lich. as part of the contract, i am to receive a Book of the damned: Diabloic if i can corrupt the paladin to a LE alignment. Being that I'm wizard 10/ Diabloist 1, I have an imp companion that I can use to help. I plan of slowly messing with the paladin, and maybe tricking him into killing some innocent people to help with the corruption. any suggestions/ ideas?
thanks in advance
Well, you could turn to the Star Wars prequels for inspiration.
And then, of course, there's this approach.
(It didn't work in THAT case, but your chances might be better with a MALE paladin, if you can get, say, a succubus on your side.)
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However, you could try to entice the paladin with monetary/power rewards. In the APG coming out in a few months there are going to be rules for the anti-paladin... including rules for how to switch levels 1-to-1 from paladin to antipaladin (at least as far as I've garnered from Paizo posts). Using this mechanical tool, plus other ploys in game you might be able to slowly move the paladin's player towards wanting to become evil.
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Well if it has to be a lawful evil alignment, it's going to take more than one act to get him/her to change. A good place to start would be putting him in a situation where he has to choose between the life of an innocent and the lives of more innocents (I personally am of the opinion that sacrificing for the greater good wouldn't necessarily be an evil act, but most DMs don't think this way). The problem you're going to encounter is if the paladin is a PC they're going to be able to choose whether or not they will do an act that would cause them to fall, and chances are they aren't going to. If, on the other hand the paladin you're trying to corrupt is an NPC, you might be able to RP this out with your DM and succeed.
Good luck!
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How specific was the contract did it specify "corrupting the paladin to LE alignment" as opposed to just causing the paladin to fall.
The main problem I see is even though you can instigate the paladin into committing an unintentional evil act (through deception, trickery etc.)
you can not make the other PC willingly commit an evil act.
Right. I can't force him to do things. The contract was to cause the paladin to fall, and get his soul to go to hell when he dies, so he has to hit LE alignment. Trickery, bluff skills, and maybe some illusions are the first things that come to mind. Even if the paladin resists, I still get the items, and become a lich, I just don't get the Book of the Damned: Diabloic.
As a side note: the DM is in full support, but will not cheese it at all. He feels this is very ravenlofty, and will add some nice RP to the game. we are all 11th lvl, we have me, the Wizard (yes, say it in the voice), the paladin. a Half Orge Fighter, and a cleric that rarely shows up. the Fighter is already CE. The paladin doesn't know this though. Per the DM, You cannot detect Evil in Ravenloft, just the L-C scale. So just being in a group with Evil characters will take some toll on the paladin.
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Your character needs to actively (and covertly) reward every questionable action the paladin takes.
Your character may even need to part with some of his own treasure or items to sweeten the pot for him.
Lying to the paladin might be another option. Set up a scenario where a youth who is stealing food to feed his starving family is mistaken by the paladin as in the act of something much worse (murder, rape, etc).
Even if the paladin realizes he was mistaken after the fact, help him justify the actions as being of good intent, regardless of the outcome. Convince him that no atonement is needed.
Use the "Evil in the name of Good" shtick.
Throw yourself in front of something that would kill a bunch of innocent people, use enemy corpses to defend the town, that sort of thing.
Since you are a lich you can afford to be a bit "self sacrificing" due to your "I get back up again" routine. Make the paladin your friend.
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Your character needs to actively (and covertly) reward every questionable action the paladin takes.
Your character may even need to part with some of his own treasure or items to sweeten the pot for him.
Lying to the paladin might be another option. Set up a scenario where a youth who is stealing food to feed his starving family is mistaken by the paladin as in the act of something much worse (murder, rape, etc).
Even if the paladin realizes he was mistaken after the fact, help him justify the actions as being of good intent, regardless of the outcome. Convince him that no atonement is needed.
Right, play it up as a lesser evil act/ teaming up with a lesser evil, to stop a greater evil, which isn't real or is mistaken as evil.
This is going to be an odd situation because the player may trust you, and therefore your character, and a distinction will have to be made on what influenced "an evil act".
This all depends on how much time you have to work on this guy.
If you have a lot of time you can take your time not get to risky. You concentrate on getting his Lawful, and Good alignment to clash. Try to get him some place where laws aren't necessarily good. Where there is injustice, and them convenience he has to stick with the law, for the greater good even if it means doing some things he finds troubling. Start small, and work your way up. Punishing a bandit with a needless cruel punishment, that the law says can be done, instead of just putting them to death, or letting them go.
Or you could hire someone really annoying, to bug them constantly. To hound them, prime them with information on what the paladin is sensitive about and try to get the paladin to harm this person. If the Pally doesn't get into his RP this will be tough, but if he's really thinking about what's right as opposed to lawful you can get him on a slippery slope.
If you have to do it quick. You'll probably have to take big risk. Maybe charm a monster to give up, and then tell him you can't hold the spell and finish him off quick. Or even mind compulsion, as long as he can't figure out your doing it he will be aghast by his own actions, but as long as he doesn't know he was under magical influence you can start him toward evil.
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The DM (who isn't taking sides) didn't take away smite evil did he???
Nope, he can still Smite evil, the Detect evil deal is just part of the Ravenloft setting, since we are actually IN ravenloft, it doesn't work.
This all depends on how much time you have to work on this guy.
If you have a lot of time you can take your time not get to risky. You concentrate on getting his Lawful, and Good alignment to clash. Try to get him some place where laws aren't necessarily good. Where there is injustice, and them convenience he has to stick with the law, for the greater good even if it means doing some things he finds troubling. Start small, and work your way up. Punishing a bandit with a needless cruel punishment, that the law says can be done, instead of just putting them to death, or letting them go.
We are lvl 11, and the game may run up to about lvl 20th or so. so plenty of time.
When you play in Ravenloft you wouldnt know what the Imp was or that it was evil. and no ravenloft DM would allow that dumb smite evil slap thats just trying to meta game
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When you play in Ravenloft you wouldnt know what the Imp was or that it was evil. and no ravenloft DM would allow that dumb smite evil slap thats just trying to meta game
How would being in Ravenloft prevent a paladin from knowing what an imp is? I know about the 'detect evil->detect chaos' so he wouldn't detect evil from the imp. If they're from outside ravenloft originally, Paladin would probably recognize it as some type of fiend. If they're natives, I'd assume his training would cover some mention of lil winged buggers who travel with untrustworthy sorts particularly arcanists. Course, imo a paladin in Ravenloft shouldn't trust anyone :)
When you play in Ravenloft you wouldnt know what the Imp was or that it was evil. and no ravenloft DM would allow that dumb smite evil slap thats just trying to meta game
Sure I would. Because if it hits he has a fight on his hands that he provoked (in a non-lawful non-good manner), and if it doesn't hit he just wasted a smite evil -- potentially still starting a fight.
Also Knowledge(the planes) is always a good choice for a paladin.
If your Paladin has Knowledge planes maybe but I think the DCs for that are way higher in Ravenloft at least how our DM played it
So just on a hunch you are going to possibly pick a fight with your party fighter who has done nothing to warrent this blatant attack, I would be really pissed as the Fighter
How did the fighter provoke the fight by joining the party and being of the wrong alignment?
I have played a Paladin in Ravenloft and it was alot of fun trying to deal with an entire realm that is evil and is trying to get your soul
When you play in Ravenloft you wouldnt know what the Imp was or that it was evil. and no ravenloft DM would allow that dumb smite evil slap thats just trying to meta gameSure I would. Because if it hits he has a fight on his hands that he provoked (in a non-lawful non-good manner),
Not sure I am following the "non-lawful good manner" statement
and if it doesn't hit he just wasted a smite evil
Best done in town so that you can choose not to travel with that evil individual
-- potentially still starting a fight.
Potentially and potentially eradicating some evil, or dying in the cause, of course another LG character will be most willing to forgive & forget.
Also Knowledge(the planes) is always a good choice for a paladin.
I agree
Ok so just walking up to someone that's not attacking anyone and going "Smite evil" on them is a good thing? If it hurts them yes they are evil -- but your attack is unprovoked, and they have not done anything to deserve such an attack (to your knowledge). After all if you KNEW before hand they were evil and were engeged in some evil act (such as murdering babies) that would be one thing -- but this guy is just walking up to people going "Hey buddy!" slapping them on the back trying to see if they are injured by his use of smite evil.
That's not good, and in many cases attacking someone unprovoked (and it is an attack) isn't lawful either.
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I just got the Imp last lvl when i hit 11, its part of the Diabloist PRC. the imp also has at will invisibility, and can shape chang at will into a raven. So hiding the Imp won't(shouldn't) be a problem.
We just finished Dealing with Strahd, Injaira, and Azlen the Lich, and Stopped the Grand Conjunction. The mist swallowed us up and moved us into Lord Soth's Domain.
So far, I have done nothing to provoke the paladin, and even warned him a few times he Lied to an inkeeper to be careful. This was prior to the Devilish pact. we play again this saturday. i'll post an update of my Shenigens.
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Did the game start in Ravenloft?
What alignment did everyone start with?
How is it the Paladin is unaware?I am full of questions....
The Game started outside of Ravenloft. We where hired as body guards for a noble. During the trip, we where attacked, and the Noble was kiddnapped off into the woods, we chased him, and where eventually swallowed up by the mists, and ended up in ravenloft.
I started CN, but have slowly moved to LN, and now LE since the Pact. The Fighter was org a cleric, but didn't liek it, so he switched to a fighter, and the Rogue we had switched to Cleric (who hardly ever shows up) the Paladin has been Mr Paladin since the start, and does intervene when the group does somethign he's not fond of.
The Paladin has kinda Turned a Blind Eye to the Fighters alignment, a "dont ask, don't tell" situation. but the Fighter hasn't done any Evil acts as of yet. I did fireball a Group of Witches, becuase they where summoning a demon to attack Castle Ravenloft, before they could explain what they where doing, but that has been a few lvls ago.
Are there any NPCs that the Paladin is particularly close to? Putting them in a life-threatening (or worse) situation is a good way to shake up the Paladin's world. Something like "slay that helpless prisoner or the cute innkeeper's daughter dies" would probably be pretty potent.
Heck, any situation in which you can threaten innocent children as part of a ploy to get him to cross the line should have pretty good chances of success.
Are there any NPCs that the Paladin is particularly close to? Putting them in a life-threatening (or worse) situation is a good way to shake up the Paladin's world. Something like "slay that helpless prisoner or the cute innkeeper's daughter dies" would probably be pretty potent.
Heck, any situation in which you can threaten innocent children as part of a ploy to get him to cross the line should have pretty good chances of success.
...Or he just smites you in the face.
Seriously, this won't make him evil, it'll just make YOU dead, and the PLAYER pissed.
My advice? Talk to the player of the paladin and make sure he's cool with you trying this.
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You could always take inspiration from Lord Soth's story from Dragonlance, or even Darth Vader. To err is human. I think Fallen Paladins make for a great story, but then again, it depends on how hard you want him to fall.
Even Lancelot I would consider a fallen pally... he gave into his passions, and doomed Camelot as a consequence. The kicker is how (if) that said Paladin goes about seeking redemption... or not at all!
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I think that for a paladin to fall sufficiently, he has to end up in Heroic BSOD, except without the recovery part.
The best way (I did put easiest here first, but then I reread what I wrote and discovered that it was in no way easy) for something like this to happen is to find out what it is that he covets most in the world, and then get some lackey to destroy/kill it in front of the paladin. Make sure he gets a good long look at this person, because you want it to be burned into his mind. Now, it will take a bit of setting up, but make it so that any time he gets close to bringing said person to justice, put innocents in the way or just generally put him in situations in which he must do evil acts over and over again in pursuit. If done well, by the time he has gotten "justice" he will have committed many heinous acts, and will now wonder what has become of himself. Obviously this works better if the victim in question is a sibling or significant other, maybe even his parents. If you're really lucky, you can get him to go to LE as opposed to just offing himself or retiring, and he might make it a point to cut short the lives of others like himself, so that they will be spared the misery of living a life so full of pain. His main target would be young idealistic paladins...
It sounds to me like your in game goal is to completely screw over a fellow player's character (I know the GM is encouraging it and you may not think of it in that way, but that's how the other player may view it)... if he turns evil doesn't he lose -everything-?
Does the Paladin's player know the game has essentially turned into an evil campaign?
In my experience, running a Paladin in an evil campaign is a recipe for the entire game to blow up OOC and possibly even end with hurt feelings. I'd suggest, as the Prof suggested, talk to the Paladin's player and ask him if he'd be more comfortable playing an evil character with the rest of you or at least a non Paladin.
>:(
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To all those that are saying don't do it, the Paladin is a close friend of mine, he won't get upset or angry about it. We pull jokes on each other in game all the time. He will prob find it amusing. He is also a good player and WILL prob see whats going on, and def actively try not to be corrupted. Knowing him, he will prob think I'm just messing with him for fun. He has no idea my character has made this Pact.
Time frame wise, we are all 11th lvl, the campaign will end around lvl 20 or so. My goal is to get him to fall shortly before the game actually ends. The DM feels that would be a good way to end the story line.
You could always take inspiration from Lord Soth's story from Dragonlance, or even Darth Vader.
This would actually work well within the story, we have where just scooped up by the mist and placed in Soth's domain within Ravenloft.
More than likely, the paladin will not end up getting corrupted. He is pretty good about playing his Alignment, and staying on the right path. But the game within the game is going to be fun, and add some more RP to the campaign.
I feel this will end with a smite to the face.
"Pulling jokes" != "Lol, I just ruined your class"
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I feel this will end with a smite to the face.
"Pulling jokes" != "Lol, I just ruined your class"
It very well may. I'm ok with that. If the paladin finds out whats going on, and Smites me good, then so be it. Thats one possible outcome to the story line. It wouldn't be the first time I've died in this Campaign.
First, I ate some food from a local, that after eating it, only allows me to eat food within Ravenloft, if i leave, i would starve.
2nd time, I touched an orb that sucked the soul from my body (failed save)
the group smashed the orb, and i failed my save a 2nd time to get back into my body. So i was a wisp for a while.
3rd I failed a save on a trapped chest. Death magic or something, idk, -insta-dead
4th I failed a save on a scarab of death. Burrowed into my chest and killed me.
Well, you could turn to the Star Wars prequels for inspiration.
First step: Your target must be an utter moron.
If that fails, you can forget that approach.
Well, you could turn to the Star Wars prequels for inspiration.First step: Your target must be an utter moron.
If that fails, you can forget that approach.
First step: Decide the outcome
Second step: Fiat the story to fit the outcome
Well, you could turn to the Star Wars prequels for inspiration.First step: Your target must be an utter moron.
If that fails, you can forget that approach.
It's funny because it's true... the whole "Anakin being seduced by the Dark Side" plot was laughable imo.
It's funny because it's true... the whole "Anakin being seduced by the Dark Side" plot was laughable imo.Well, you could turn to the Star Wars prequels for inspiration.First step: Your target must be an utter moron.
If that fails, you can forget that approach.
They are trying to make it make sense in the Clone Wars series, but it's still looking kind of thin. As well as the entire clone army turning on the Jedi and actually managing to destroy them.
Well, you could turn to the Star Wars prequels for inspiration.First step: Your target must be an utter moron.
If that fails, you can forget that approach.
First step: Decide the outcome
Second step: Fiat the story to fit the outcome
There's a prerequisite for that: You must absolutely hate your target audience...
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In each world, there are degrees of what constitutes good and evil. Oftentimes, we forget that shades of gray are the best way to make changes.
The biggest issue is going to be finding a sufficiently motivating in-game way to convince the paladin that his faith is misplaced or that his clergy is giving him orders to do the wrong things.
quick side note:
"If we're going to be traveling together, you should know that I'm a Paladin sworn to uphold the good and right things in the world. I can't travel with you if you would willingly commit evil acts. And... I'm going to have to check to be sure. So, you're not an evil person right?"
"Of course I'm not!"
"Good, then this smite evil shouldn't affect you at all. You don't have a problem with that, right?"
Blam, done. And totally within the bounds of a paladins code. Fair warning, and all is good, especially when verifying your companions trustworthiness.
Anyhow, onward.
How does he receive religious orders? You might be able to infiltrate the system and use it to order his character to protect an evil npc *for the greater good of the church*.
He'll have to decide whether or not to follow that order.
The whole save this person or this person dies places the burden more on the soul of the threaten-er.
Try something like split knowledge. Two messengers just arrived! An evil lich is attacking this part of the town! The guards there *might* be able to drive him off, but they won't be able to destroy him. If he gets away, he'll definitely kill others later.
The other message is about a horde of undead creatures attacking the housing district! The guards will destroy them all eventually, but innocent lives will be lost every moment until they're all destroyed!
To ply it on real nice and thick, if he attacks the lich, have one of the women or children survivors of the attack come to him and ask him why he didn't save their papa or children.
If the other, he can hear from victims of the escaped lich on a semi-regular basis.
"If only your god would grant you the strength to protect those who need it! If you had the power, you could have prevented all this from happening!"
The laws conflict may or may not work, depending on how he views it. Does he have to follow the area laws of each town he's in? Or does he just have to follow the religious law of his order? He might then feel free to ignore local laws if they're unjust. If he *does* have to follow local laws, then ones regarding slavery are especially useful. Take him to see the children on sale at the flesh market. Free castrations tossed in on request. One cure light wounds offered if something needs resizing.
Yeah, make it bad. Though, I should probably stop the ideas here before I get in trouble :/
You are a mage. Make a helm of opposite alignment, make sure to place great spells on it that he would want to use so that he demands to have the item.
You could even research a spell that just makes anyone that wears the helm turn to LE.
To all those that are saying don't do it, the Paladin is a close friend of mine, he won't get upset or angry about it. We pull jokes on each other in game all the time. He will prob find it amusing. He is also a good player and WILL prob see whats going on, and def actively try not to be corrupted. Knowing him, he will prob think I'm just messing with him for fun. He has no idea my character has made this Pact.
Time frame wise, we are all 11th lvl, the campaign will end around lvl 20 or so. My goal is to get him to fall shortly before the game actually ends. The DM feels that would be a good way to end the story line.
I agree.
I'm cheering for the Pally, though. :)
You are a mage. Make a helm of opposite alignment, make sure to place great spells on it that he would want to use so that he demands to have the item.
You could even research a spell that just makes anyone that wears the helm turn to LE.
A helm of opposite alignment would make him CE, so that last bit would be necessary.
If the Paladin is a close friend of yours, I really don't see any issue with trying to corrupt their character. For example, I have one character that I've been playing consistently since about 2003, has developed a lot over the years, etc etc. In '07 a close friend of mine Styxed-dunked and severely traumatized this character, making them essentially a vegetable for a month of very frequent play, and then a shadow of their former selves at best for the following year.
He didn't tell me he was going to do this. I was super surprised. But, y'know, he's my buddy and we played through it and it ended up being really fantastic. If I were playing a Paladin, and a close friend was playing a Diabolist, they could try and corrupt me to their heart's bleeding content, and it would go however it damnwell went. Also, though, if I knew OOC he was playing a Diabolist I would expect a corruption attempt OOC.
So that's that.
Smite-slaps to detect evil are something that I think are pretty lame, as well. Doing it out of the blue is an attack, and I'd say it goes totally against the Paladin's code. EG, when I play evil characters they don't always consider themselves "evil," and if they don't consider themselves evil there's no reason for them to say to the Paladin "Hey man, just a heads-up, but I'm completely morally bankrupt."
However!
If your DM agrees that it's shady and unethical for a Paladin to do this, and you don't mind getting the Fighter killed, you could entice the Paladin to do exactly this (Smite to Detect) on the Fighter. Selling Fighter out as evil will give you credibility as a trustworthy dude.
Beyond that, damn it, you're in Ravenloft! Dealing with the locals is going to be a slippery slope of evil 90% of the time. Turning "Lawful" and "Good" against each other is your best bet, since you want him LE, and the laws in Ravenloft are generally Evil.
The OP knows his own friends and co-players better than we do, so he should have a better idea than we do how this attempt to corrupt another player's character will go over with that player.
That said, I generally try to discourage this type of backstabbing in party ranks, whether I'm playing or GMing. The simple reason is that it frequently ends badly. Most RPGs work with the assumption that the group is working together to overcome obstacles, not stabbing each other in the back. The games we play tend to be challenging enough when all the players are on the same sheet of music. Throw in some intra-party dissension and you can enter TPK territory pretty quickly (especially in Ravenloft!!!).
More importantly, outside the game, a lot, perhaps even most, players tend to take it pretty personally, when another player deliberately tries to sabotage their character. I've seen people leave a game for less.
Years ago, I experimented with a campaign in which I gave the players pregenerated characters who each had a secret backstory that gave them sometimes competing objectives. It ended up being a disaster. A couple of the players reveled in the opportunity to be duplicitous and enjoyed the roleplaying challenge, but the majority hated the experience because it turned them against each other, which wasn't fun for them. And those were all neutral or good characters who just worked for different factions and had competing interests.
So I would just suggest that you examine your own motives and make sure you and the GM aren't having your fun at the expense of someone else. If you're sure everyone wil enjoy the fun, corrupt away.
However, with others in this thread, I'll be rooting for the paladin to figure your wizard's game out and apply his size 13 holy boot to the wizard's backside.