I am curious too. On reading that class, my first thought was that it is really overpowered.
There is really nothing stopping them from making a single "gun" that shoots a fireball, lightning bolt, scorching ray, magic missile, and invisibility (to make them invisible after this attack) all at the same time. Just one pull of the 'trigger'. And they can use it a few times a day, every day, forever.
Sure, they can only do it a few times a day, but when they do, it pretty much ends the encounter on the artificer's first round.
Of course, I was reading fast and skimming a bit (although I did slow down for that class ability) so maybe I missed something that limits this beyond the low number of daily uses. I hope I missed something or I will have to ban this class outright, or fix it myself.
So yeah, I'm curious to hear actual playtest results.
the thing is you need to consider, is that is only at high levels. When wizards and sorcerers end up with 9th lvl spell+ other crazy stuff. And i assume that an item with multiple spells on it takes up more of his "wierd science" slots. Sure i can have a set of gloves that shoots off 5 4th level spells 11 times a day. But the first time i use it after number 11 in a single day im faced with a DC 28 check. and if that item is lost/destroyed, the character basically is without its main power until it gets 64 hours to complete a new device.
The DC starts at 30 and goes up by 5 every time you use it beyond the limit for 5 spells in an weird science item.
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Ah, yes your correct.
Still would like to see some weight/item type rules. Also was thinking about save DCs. Is it like wands, where it is based off the min stat needed to cast it? Does the artificer actually need to invest in any casting stats? I mean, sure, int and cha play into his class skills but considering great access to magical items and loads of free feats it makes it very unneccesary to boost these stats high.
If this all plays out to be how it seems, an artificer could very well have the same stats as a fighter or ranger, specific magical equipment early and potent magical aid.
Also, this is a class that has its power curve that is influenced heavily based on player creativity and DM ruling.
The DC for each spell would be the minimum, like with a scroll or wand, per the writers. Also I see no reason why a fireball/lightning bolt blaster wouldn't require one save for each spell, another disadvantage.
I just think weird science is a bit over powered. To modify it, I just make you spend an extra item charge for each power you activate at a time. (Ex. A 7th level player wants to use Fireball, Lightning bolt and Invisibility all at once with an item. To do that, I force him to spend 1 charge per spell effect, meaning 3 out of 4 for that item. It makes them think it over. In return, I add craft construct as a free bonus feat.
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I just think weird science is a bit over powered. To modify it, I just make you spend an extra item charge for each power you activate at a time. (Ex. A 7th level player wants to use Fireball, Lightning bolt and Invisibility all at once with an item. To do that, I force him to spend 1 charge per spell effect, meaning 3 out of 4 for that item. It makes them think it over. In return, I add craft construct as a free bonus feat.
Why do you feel it is underpowered. Even at level 20, rules-as-written the Artificer can only get 4th level spell effects, and only get them at their lowest possible DC's.
I added craft construct to fill the empty level at 15th level.
I just think weird science is a bit over powered. To modify it, I just make you spend an extra item charge for each power you activate at a time. (Ex. A 7th level player wants to use Fireball, Lightning bolt and Invisibility all at once with an item. To do that, I force him to spend 1 charge per spell effect, meaning 3 out of 4 for that item. It makes them think it over. In return, I add craft construct as a free bonus feat.Why do you feel it is underpowered. Even at level 20, rules-as-written the Artificer can only get 4th level spell effects, and only get them at their lowest possible DC's.
I added craft construct to fill the empty level at 15th level.
The idea of having a single item that can perform up to 20 effects at once 11 times per day is a bit overpowered in my opinion. If you feel differently, that's fine by me. Obviously the creators felt different than me as well. It's just how the world turns.
I just feel that the restriction I put on it encourages using multiple items, rather than just one big one. I like the idea of an artificer that's full of james bond gadgets, rather than a rocket launcher that shoots lightning, makes him invulnerable, and heals him.
And 15th level? If I remember correctly, Craft Construct has a normal requirement of CL 5, craft wondrous item, and craft magic arms and armor. That seems a bit of a wait.
Just my thoughts, though.
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Re: The craft construct feat I wanted it earlier but for simplicity I used it to fill the dead level at 15th.
I agree that encouraging uss of multiple items is important, but I don't think a spell charges system is the best way to do it. I'd much rather use a system where the number of effects a single item can hold is based on the artificers level- capping out at six or so.
And yes- the artificer can create the ultimate device via RAW that does twenty spell effects- but none of them are higher than 4th level, the DC's are the bare minimum, metamagic can't be used on them, and ALL of his effects are tied to that single device- a sunder or a disarm MAGNET if ever I saw one. A high level wizard could telekinesis that object from him in round 1 and then hes got nothing. Putting all of your egges into that one basket is rather painful when it goes wrong.
Re: The craft construct feat I wanted it earlier but for simplicity I used it to fill the dead level at 15th.
I agree that encouraging uss of multiple items is important, but I don't think a spell charges system is the best way to do it. I'd much rather use a system where the number of effects a single item can hold is based on the artificers level- capping out at six or so.
And yes- the artificer can create the ultimate device via RAW that does twenty spell effects- but none of them are higher than 4th level, the DC's are the bare minimum, metamagic can't be used on them, and ALL of his effects are tied to that single device- a sunder or a disarm MAGNET if ever I saw one. A high level wizard could telekinesis that object from him in round 1 and then hes got nothing. Putting all of your egges into that one basket is rather painful when it goes wrong.
Agree to disagree? I see the points you're making. And I admit that it's partially just the fact that activating so many things at once irks me.
The mechanics are a bit clunky overall, and do need refinement (since the artificer could, effectively, get somewhere around 220 spells per day at level 20 (5 spells per level x 4 levels of spells x 1 item per spell x 11 charges per item = 220 total charges), while the sorcerer will probably get around 65 spells per day). Understandably, one does have to take gameplay into account, like switching between items and the fact that it only gets to level 4 spells, but I think we can, regardless, agree that the thing can outlast any other casting class.
Maybe a compromise would be that it must spend a "charge" for each effect activated, but gets more charges overall? Something similar to the alchemist's number of bombs? class level + Int modifier or something to that effect? Do keep in mind that each item gets this number of charges, so one level 7 artificer could have six items, each with 10+ charges.
Just an idea.
Another easy fix might be to eliminate the "per day" usage on their weird science items and just make their number of charges their total charges overall, like a wand. A 5th level artificer makes 2 weird science items, one with 2 spell effects, the other with 3. Each has 3 charges, and once those charges are expended, he has to take several hours out of his day to make a new one (or re-charge this one, as it were). This would encourage multiple items for multiple charges, and discourage wildly spamming your best spells.
Were I to implement this idea (which actually intrigues me very much), I would probably implement "fast-craft" rules for recharging spent items.
Regardless of any changes you might make. One that definitely needs to be that, instead of 1 + half your level for charges, it should be half your level + int modifier. Bring the character into the class a little more.
i just got the book and was going to let my group play the class an then they start talking about how you can make a item of any size to be any thing what i want to know is there a revised virson of the class out there
i do think my book said dc started at 20 may be wrong
the pdf some one had also had sever mistakes in it on outer class like warlock
We have one in our party but to be honest even with the overpowered weapon, they are a bit of a one trick pony. When it comes to combat we almost don't have to ask what the player is doing which gets somewhat boring.
Here is a link to a d20pfsrd one.... but as a 3rd party supplier... I would not allow it.....Weird Science does sound to powerful.
Go to Artificer
You can also find some similar stuff, including the same Artificer at the Pathfinder Database.
Try this: http://www.mediafire.com/?tjmjozxtms4pi36
You may want to check out this class that is artificery: Ardwright
The artificer class in the tome of secrets is bulky, awkwardly designed, and overall an underperformer. You can do a bit with it but nothing that you can't do with a dedicated crafting wizard. There are a few gimmicks you can pull off with the class, and it does become more powerful if you're sticking to PFS style play.. but in any full on campaign setting where you can go through quite a bit of travel and play in a single night, you can easily outperform it using other classes.
I've been working on a couple re-works, but for the most part the best thing I could find was a modified Wizard variant. And I'm okay with that. :)
I really like the artificer in the Eberron setting. That being said, for a majority of settings, it would likely be better to make the artificer into a Prestige class. I say that because I don't see it really fitting an archtype, or school specialty. This is one of those cases where the Prestige class is appropriate.
Was there ever a final conversion of this into an Archetype?
So here's an idea... seeing as the player becomes a "one trick pony" with his magical rocket-launcher, here's an idea:
Half or even quarter uses per day, encouraging the artificer to make more and varied machines,
NO DAMAGING MACHINES!
this makes the artificer HAVE to pick up a weapon, then the artificer would
A) pick up more creatively-focused spells based on improving stats or providing other combat benefits.
B) Negates the "rocket launcher" effect.
C) focus his ability scores on the weapon, as he doesn't need anything for his ability as it is.
D) Focus on the divine spells, and even becoming more of a support/healer than anything else.
Yes? no? i'll try it in a campaign and tell you how it goes.