I think it's hilarious to point out that there were plenty of methods of getting other stats to damage in 3.5, and yet strength still reigned supreme. This isn't exactly untrod ground here.
Plus, we get that you hate dex to damage. You can make lots of excuses for why those listed above wouldn't work as dex to damage. Or you can accept that they would work. Seriously. You're going out of your way to hate on other peoples' ideas.
3.0 had more. They didn't reprint a lot of them for a reason. All those ways to get other stats to damage were horribly broken. All the ways to get stats to anything they don't normally go to is very powerful.
When 1 feat vastly dwarfs annother, there is a problem. Even if you don't tank your str and have an 14 str, 18 dex character, its a feat that gives +2 damage, the equal to weapon spec. And that is a lvl 1 character with no stat bonuses. On a character with 8 str and 24 dex, a reasonable lvl 8 character, your looking at a +8 damage feat. 6 and 36, a horribly twinked lvl 20, 20 damage. I have the same issue with using int, but at least then it is spread accross 2 stats you need to raise, instead of just 1. There are major penalties for tanking dex. There are not major penalties for tanking str if you remove damage and hit.
As for your version that makes it precision damage, besides the fact that dex to damage is too good, its the only static source of precision damage. People will always be forgetting that it wont multiply on a crit. People ask on these boards if sneak attack multiplies for gods sake. The high level requirement you suggest prevents it from being useful when it is needed the most, at low levels.
I think a better feat, though I still don't see the need, would be modeled after Arcane Strike:
Insightful Blow
prereq: weapon finesse, BAB +1
Deals +1 damage at lvl 1, +1 additonal damage every 5 lvls, usable only while using weapon finesse. While applying this damage, you do not apply strength bonus, but penalties still apply.
This allows you to have a low str, get moderate bonuses, and not have to invest in str-raising items. It scales with lvl so its not a single huge bonus. It still keeps the penalty for people who tank str though, discouraging the twinkage while relieving the penalties some.
That looks OK, but I would take out the bit about it excluding strength - that can be as much of a penalty as a bonus.
Screw it. ProfessorCirno, I would like to officially conceed on the grounds of "Not important." I've spent probably a week oh here, arguing for the RAW. But really? Will my game suffer if YOU don't agree with me? I should think not.
I'd hope it doesn't matter.
:shrugs:
As for this particular issue and counter points being made to your points, it revolves around the arbitrary decision to make Str the "combat stat" at the exclusion of all others. It's not about defending RAW at all. You *do* understand that much, yes?
Agreement is beside the point - cases can be made for all stats (several already have been made), so *any* choice is valid if it can be justified. When you mentioned "balance" and "RAW" you're not engaging THAT discussion at all (probably why you're so flustered). No one's talking about "balance" but of the design itself - it was arbitrary up to the point of 'we don't want too much to go to one stat' and at that point, the decision is purely for "balance" reasons more so than for justifiable causes IRL.
That's pretty much where those of us on the "change it up" side are coming from - to challenge the arbitrary decision that was made in the first place and make some other options valid as well.
Plus, this is not like anyone's said "do it for free!" We're discussing tradeoffs somewhere - whether it be 1 feat or several - that's fine. You're using your feats to *change the game assumptions* and ideally, that would be 2-3 feats deep, IMO.
I understand "balance" in the game and so that's why I'm ok putting a feat cost in place to manage this (as are most of us arguing the points). Str can easily become a dump stat ... and that's not necessarily a good thing.
I like the riders posited that would make Str's mod *also* affect the dmg of this proposed Dex thing as well - PRECISELY to stop the str 6 guy from hitting as hard as a str 18, or dex 18 guy. Now - he *should* still be able to hit, and for more than 1 point of damage, though, as that's just bs, odd, and not remotely interesting.
I could maybe even see some sort of limitation of the most amount of str or dex allowed to affect the damage of the other in some way ... skewed to tone down abuse. NO idea what it could look like, but I'm not opposed to that.
:shrugs:
Either way, I think this thread has effectively left the "General" category and moved towards "Suggestions/House Rules" by now.
The original purpose of the thread "viable Wpn Fin" has been covered and it's pretty much ok. The *beefing* effects are what's being batted around a lot, and that to me says "House Rules" and pronto!
Precision is represented by sneak attack.
So only rogues can attack with precision, fighters cannot? That makes no sense. You can represent precision with power attack as well, I think, or a similar feat.
Well, here's another idea. Make Sneak Attack a feat that Rogues get for free, that can be taken multiple times? Max of like 3? And rogues get Improved Sneak Attack, which takes care of the rest of their SA damage?Precision is represented by sneak attack.So only rogues can attack with precision, fighters cannot? That makes no sense. You can represent precision with power attack as well, I think, or a similar feat.
Or go with my idea :U
Requires, let's say, BAB 5. So fifth level fighters get it, but rogues don't get it until level 7. It requires weapon finesse, Dex x, and, let's say, weapon focus on the weapon in question.
You deal your dexterity modifier as precision damage at the cost of losing your strength modifier to damage.
Why does this not make strength a dump stat for everyone? Precision damage is limited. You don't add one and a half or twice dex to damage like you could strength, just play dex. You don't add increased dex to damage on a crit, either, which is a big deal for fighters and all their crit-related mechanics. A few subtypes, such as oozes, are completely immune to precision damage at that.
I suggested making it fighter-only if simply because of the worry that rogues would suddenly become too powerful with this. If someone better with numbers could start a'crunching how it could effect rogues, by all means. But right now, rogues are better off being a heavy strength build then a heavy dex build. Dex isn't even good enough for the class meant for the stat.
But right now, rogues are better off being a heavy strength build then a heavy dex build. Dex isn't even good enough for the class meant for the stat.
Dex is plenty good for the class meant for the stat (assuming you mean rogue). It's just not the best stat to use if you want to make the highest DPR rogue possible. Dexterity is still far and beyond the most relevant stat for most rogues builds.
When 1 feat vastly dwarfs annother, there is a problem. Even if you don't tank your str and have an 14 str, 18 dex character, its a feat that gives +2 damage, the equal to weapon spec.
Good point. That's why I tried averaging the Str and Dex bonus. If a character has 10 Str and 18 Dex, Weapon Finesse is hard to pass up (+4 attack for one feat). Here's what I propose instead:
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a finesse weapon (any natural weapon, light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain) made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls. All other restrictions on finesse weapons apply normally.
Normal: A finesse weapon allows you to use the average of your Strength and Dexterity modifiers on attack rolls instead of your Strength modifier. If you fight with two weapons, the benefit only applies to one weapon. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
By making half the benefit of the feat normal, the bonus offered by the feat is less extreme compared to other feats, and low strength characters are normally a little more viable even without the feat.
The high level requirement you suggest prevents it from being useful when it is needed the most, at low levels.
Yes!
Insightful Blow
prereq: weapon finesse, BAB +1
...
Nice feat. I think even the BAB +1 prereq is too much. A first level wizard might need it.
Well, here's another idea. Make Sneak Attack a feat that Rogues get for free, that can be taken multiple times? Max of like 3? And rogues get Improved Sneak Attack, which takes care of the rest of their SA damage?Precision is represented by sneak attack.So only rogues can attack with precision, fighters cannot? That makes no sense. You can represent precision with power attack as well, I think, or a similar feat.
I already suggested that. You would have to limit the total sneak attack dice to level/2 round up, but I think it should work.
I wonder if the APG will have a feat that lets you apply Dex to damage in place of Str. It would be hilarious if it did.
I wonder if the APG will have a feat that lets you apply Dex to damage in place of Str. It would be hilarious if it did.
Do you know something? :)
I wonder if the APG will have a feat that lets you apply Dex to damage in place of Str. It would be hilarious if it did.Do you know something? :)
lol, if only. Just speculating. It would certainly be a highly debated concept and would put the final nail in the coffin on the debate. It's more likely that a third party designer would have to make it.
That's essentially what rogues are combat wise... precision fighters who use a light touch instead of overwhelming strength. The rogue is the one slipping a stilletto between the links in your chain mail, the fighter is the one taking your head off with his broadsword.
So ... all swordmasters like say musketeers and zorro *aren't* really primary, front line fighters at all, right? Only worthy of the 3/4 bab progression? Can never pick up "specialization" in their weapons of choice and what have you?
Cyrano would have a quatrain or three for you, before his "refrain" I fear ...
What is power attack based on... Strength... not dexterity. What do people generally use it with? the biggest two hand weapon they can lay thier hands on. Where does that spell precision?
It doesn't - which was my point for why something different should have been made (@Dabbler - why I never agreed to that solution).
Now, while it *doesn't* say anything in particular about precise/accurate damage, the *effect* of granting more damage by taking a penalty to striking potential equates to a very, VERY similar feel.
I'm not a fan of that solution, BUT I fully understand it and can back that decision by a GM if pressed to use that for my "accurate" fighter concept. It does, however, require that you disregard 90% of the "fluff" that comes with the feat, including the ability to turn a blind eye to the Str 13+ requirement {and just ignore the role of str for this finesse application}.
To spell it more precisely out the "precise fighter" is picking his targets (ie: takes a penalty to hit) very carefully in order to maximize his damage output (ie: the bonus to damage comes into play).
At it's core, this is more or less what PA does *as written* but what Dabbler put up suggests you just change the circumstances from "hit it really, REALLY hard and with a careless swing" to "choose a difficult, but more lethal target" instead. It, MECHANCIALLY, changes nothing at all.
My issue is that ... MECHANICALLY, the dex fighter guy is *still* disadvantaged and gains even less than a str-based one would (again - inherent to the arbitrary nature of the combat preferences built into the design in the first place).
The str-based guy can more or less pump a single stat and continue to gain, and gain, and gain in his focused area. The dex-based guy (Fighter-class here), is cut from being *as* effective as the str-guy. He won't get the same boon to hit (though Wpn Finesse *may* help even it out), and he most certainly can NOT approach the damage output of the pure str-built fighter.
The str guy will gain both to hit and damage for his investment, the dex guy gets to hit ONLY w/a feat investment. Adding one more feat to grant damage doesn't seem unbalanced - it seems *fair*.
Str still would/should have str bonus multiples for 2-handing (dex-guy should not).
:shrugs:
I like the feat I suggested above of tieing damage bonus to bab progression as a function of the existing Dex bonus at most.
The core concept of that is fair, IMO. It needs a few feats to dedicate to this (that would be otherwise spent on other feat-chains, abilities for the str-guy). Additionally, the damage gained is a scaling damage based on both BAB and Dex bonuses.
Precision is represented by sneak attack.So only rogues can attack with precision, fighters cannot? That makes no sense. You can represent precision with power attack as well, I think, or a similar feat.That's essentially what rogues are combat wise... precision fighters who use a light touch instead of overwhelming strength. The rogue is the one slipping a stilletto between the links in your chain mail, the fighter is the one taking your head off with his broadsword.
What is power attack based on... Strength... not dexterity. What do people generally use it with? the biggest two hand weapon they can lay thier hands on. Where does that spell precision?
This is why I would argue Deadly Aim should apply to finesse weapons as well.
This is why I would argue Deadly Aim should apply to finesse weapons as well.That's essentially what rogues are combat wise... precision fighters who use a light touch instead of overwhelming strength. The rogue is the one slipping a stilletto between the links in your chain mail, the fighter is the one taking your head off with his broadsword.
What is power attack based on... Strength... not dexterity. What do people generally use it with? the biggest two hand weapon they can lay thier hands on. Where does that spell precision?
I ... could totally back that mechanic. "Ranged attacks, OR finesse-based melee attacks" would be an easy enough line to just toss into the existing description.
Of course, the problem w/that is that PA is supposed to be the "melee" attack path, and DA is supposed to be the ranged attack path.
Double dipping here ... BUT I'd posit that a double-dip dependent upon a previously selected Feat isn't really a double-dip as you've already paid 2 feats to get this effect.
Maybe a secondary effect of Wpn Finesse would be to allow a stat requirement substitution from Str req's to Dex req's? So, normally PA needs 13+ str, BUT to a character w/Wpn Finesse the req becomes Dex 13+ instead?
That would likewise work.
I wouldn't be adverse to a 'single weapon with no shield' gaining the +3 damage slot as well, but right now I think it would be good just to get some feat that addresses the damage for finesse/precision.
If you're a rogue, I'd personally say to just forget Strength and go all Dex. The + to damage doesn't matter that much, your damage should be coming from sneak attacks, bleed, and other things. Or just get a 13 Str and take Power Attack, that's still a damn fine feat even with just a one-handed weapon.Bingo.
Take a level 20 rogue, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse daggers, flanking...
Sure your dagger may do 1d4+5(enchant)+3(str of say 16), but you also add 10d6 damage per attack.
That is 6 potential hits, dealing 1d4+8+10d6 EACH. (potentially 6d4+48+60d6)
No it isn't. More realistically it's 2-3 hits doing that amount of damage, and your rogue getting turned into paste on the monsters next turn because you are in melee and just made yourself the easiest target for the monster.
No it isn't. More realistically it's 2-3 hits doing that amount of damage, and your rogue getting turned into paste on the monsters next turn because you are in melee and just made yourself the easiest target for the monster.If you're a rogue, I'd personally say to just forget Strength and go all Dex. The + to damage doesn't matter that much, your damage should be coming from sneak attacks, bleed, and other things. Or just get a 13 Str and take Power Attack, that's still a damn fine feat even with just a one-handed weapon.Bingo.
Take a level 20 rogue, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse daggers, flanking...
Sure your dagger may do 1d4+5(enchant)+3(str of say 16), but you also add 10d6 damage per attack.
That is 6 potential hits, dealing 1d4+8+10d6 EACH. (potentially 6d4+48+60d6)
... and don't forget that you need that flanking buddy!
I think the best idea would be to limit it more. 10d6 for a fighter is too overbalanced. You're going from one extreme to the other. 10d6 SA damage is the reward for going rogue. Maybe max of 4d6?I already suggested that. You would have to limit the total sneak attack dice to level/2 round up, but I think it should work.Well, here's another idea. Make Sneak Attack a feat that Rogues get for free, that can be taken multiple times? Max of like 3? And rogues get Improved Sneak Attack, which takes care of the rest of their SA damage?Precision is represented by sneak attack.So only rogues can attack with precision, fighters cannot? That makes no sense. You can represent precision with power attack as well, I think, or a similar feat.
Consider when you can use it - a fighter is supposed to be able to solo a fight, sneak attack requires either a flanking buddy, surprise, or a feint. Plus, he has other things to spend his feats on too! I am thinking more on limitations for the {whatever class}/rogue or pure rogue to l0d6 max total, at the same time letting them reach that 10d6 total. You could limit it in other ways, but I think it'd be self-limiting: any fighter taking it to that extend will be limiting himself in so many other ways, it won't be broken.
I would say multiple times (it is WAY to strong to scale with level!). Each time you take it you gain +1d6 sneak attack, but you can only take it a number of times that makes your sneak attack dice equal to your class level/2.
I would say multiple times (it is WAY to strong to scale with level!). Each time you take it you gain +1d6 sneak attack, but you can only take it a number of times that makes your sneak attack dice equal to your class level/2.Oh! Objection withdrawn.
Yeah ... if they took it to 10d6, they essentially traded in 10 feats (more or less every "bonus" feat they had to spend) to get it.
That's a LOT of trade-off.
In principal, though, I'd not be opposed to just opening up SA as a feat, though. "leveled" in a sense that you can pick it up more often IF you're also burning extra feats to do so. Otherwise, it stomps on Rogue territory big-time.
Well ... looking like "feats" has been the solution so far. Proposed changes/adjustments:
1) Wpn Finesse itself to be modified to swap str feat req's for dex instead.
2) A new feat to somehow mess with the dex bonus adding to damage (controversial, but somehow mechanics can work for this)
3) A new feat to somehow grant +int to damage (likewise controversial, but the mechanics work well enough)
4) A feat that somehow allows SA damage to be applied.
5) Possibly a feat or two that can continue to modify feint and it's applications in combat (likely action reductions mostly - maybe 2 more feats, IMO. 1 for Move --> Swift, and 1 more for Swift --> Free)
So, what I'm seeing form here is several options to make a "finesse FIGHTER" work through feats - many feats to get the right flavoring down. 2 *at least* to get the basics, but adding in the SA options, then maybe even a few more depending on how much bonus damage.
Honestly, there's a LOT of feat investment potential I'm seeing here to make the "finesse fighter" work out ok in the long run. With the amount of feat options under consideration/proposed thus far there's no fear in my mind of the finesse guy getting suddenly overpowered - he's spreading feats all over the place to try and do stuff most others can do for "free", which means that of necessity this concept is making tradeoffs all the time to pull off his concept. He probably can't get as deep in chains as he'd like in some cases, and might have to go deeper in others (progressive improved feinting options, for instance).
I would say multiple times (it is WAY to strong to scale with level!). Each time you take it you gain +1d6 sneak attack, but you can only take it a number of times that makes your sneak attack dice equal to your class level/2.Oh! Objection withdrawn.Does it stack with a rogue's sneak attack?
Yes. But the limit applies to that to, so a pure rogue cannot use it to get ahead, but they can use it to multi-class and keep up.
Speaker in Dreams, there's also the extension of Deadly Aim to apply to finesse weapons as a suggestion.
Whoops! Sorry, Dabbler ... *red face*
Missed that one ...
6) Modification of Deadly Aim to apply to Finesse weapons - possibly redundant/unnecessary if Wpn Finesse is modified to allow Str for Dex substitutions for other feats, though. {maintains the PA = melee / DA = ranged split w/the str for dex thing, but modding DA would mix 'em up}
I'd like to present a valid argument favoring a feat that allows Dex to be added to damage. This presentation will be swift and concise. It will address the myriad concerns founded in this thread over the past six pages (282 posts) and I hope it will offer some perspective to those who feel like they've been talking in circles.
Here goes.
Agile Maneuvers (Combat)
You've learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus (see Combat) instead of your Strength bonus.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus.
There is not, nor should there ever be, a feat that removes Strength from CMD in place of another stat. The above feat already exist and it has never been argued. If a Dex to damage feat came with the original core book then it, more than likely, would never have been argued against either.
Combat Maneuvers are more important in Pathfinder than they ever were in 3.5. Using Strength as a dump stat will only make a character more susceptible to trips, disarms, bullrushes and the like.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Here is our balancing factor. If a feat allowed Dex for damage then a character would still need at least a 13 Str to be fully capable in combat. A small character needs a virtual 15 Str to take this feat. With a Dex for damage feat small characters become more deadly, but without a high Str they are not more deadly than a medium sized two-hander.
This argument doubles as a reason to not allow Deadly Aim to be used with finessable weapons. That would make Str a true dump stat and is not the intention of this discussion.
Weapon Celerity (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility to deadly effect in melee combat, as opposed to raw strength.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Base Attack +1
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Add 1 ½ times your Dexterity modifier to damage when wielding any of these weapons in one hand while nothing occupies the other. While wielding two weapons you only add ½ your Dexterity modifier to damage with your off hand if it is a light weapon. You must be wearing light or no armor and no shield to use this feat. This damage is treated as precision damage.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
This is the exact feat that I've been using in my campaign since before this particular thread even started. Four characters use it and have found it to be useful, but not optimal. I also encouraged them to use it in the hopes of determining how viable such a feat is. Here are my notes if you are interested.
Small goblin druid
Medium human two-weapon fighting rogue
Medium Tiefling drunken master
Medium Tiefling Agent
All these characters are 10th level currently.
In closing my findings have determined that a Dex to damage feat is not at all optimal. It is, however, flavorful. None of the players are frustrated with taking it and only the rogue has seen a significant change in her fighting style because of it. This is a "must have" feat for certain character types, but can also act as a trap if overused. The small goblin druid is an example of this. Small druids should hide behind their animal companions whenever possible, that way they don't get grappled by hungry vampires.
Overall the Power Attack feat is the main reason why no combat type will ever use Str as a dump stat. Even Finesse fighters need it for full optimization. Deadly Aim being applied to finesse weapons is not something I've tested, but I can't imagine it being healthy for the game.
Thank you for your time.
This is the exact feat that I've been using in my campaign since before this particular thread even started. Four characters use it and have found it to be useful, but not optimal. I also encouraged them to use it in the hopes of determining how viable such a feat is. Here are my notes if you are interested.
I'm not against Dex or any other stat to damage if used correctly, with specific weapons and dealing less damage than strength. But you post above is somehow lacking... don't you think it's a "little" bit odd that FOUR characters at your table have this? How many players are there? I think that if that feat was flavorful and not at all optimal as you keep saying there wouldn't be that much people with it...
No... no one solos fights. No matter who you are, you're succeeding or failing as part of a group effort... the other members of your adventuring party.
Consider when you can use it - a fighter is supposed to be able to solo a fight
True, let me rephrase that: a fighter is meant to be able to go toe-to-toe with something without assistance when necessary. A fighter who NEEDS a flanking buddy is no longer doing his job, IMHO.
That said, the street thug fighter variant in 3.5 did replace all the bonus feats after level 1 with sneak attack increments, so there is precedent too.
I'm not against Dex or any other stat to damage if used correctly, with specific weapons and dealing less damage than strength. But you post above is somehow lacking... don't you think it's a "little" bit odd that FOUR characters at your table have this? How many players are there? I think that if that feat was flavorful and not at all optimal as you keep saying there wouldn't be that much people with it...This is the exact feat that I've been using in my campaign since before this particular thread even started. Four characters use it and have found it to be useful, but not optimal. I also encouraged them to use it in the hopes of determining how viable such a feat is. Here are my notes if you are interested.
Because he urged them to use it.
He was like "Hey guys, I have this feat I wanna test, why don't you all make characters for it and use it, eh?"
It's not that surprising that four characters used the feat when the DM asked them to :p
I'm not against Dex or any other stat to damage if used correctly, with specific weapons and dealing less damage than strength. But you post above is somehow lacking... don't you think it's a "little" bit odd that FOUR characters at your table have this? How many players are there? I think that if that feat was flavorful and not at all optimal as you keep saying there wouldn't be that much people with it...This is the exact feat that I've been using in my campaign since before this particular thread even started. Four characters use it and have found it to be useful, but not optimal. I also encouraged them to use it in the hopes of determining how viable such a feat is. Here are my notes if you are interested.
Because he urged them to use it.
He was like "Hey guys, I have this feat I wanna test, why don't you all make characters for it and use it, eh?"
It's not that surprising that four characters used the feat when the DM asked them to :p
True.
Yeah, what the prof said.
I also possess a group that's adverse to big burly fighters for some reason.
Some groups like big burly fighters, some groups like quick and agile fencers.
To be fair, if we look at the various tropes and cliches, the big burly fighters are stereotypically big dumb and thick, while the quick and agile fencers tend to be the wise cracking charmers.
In other words, your number of chicks seems to be reversely proportionate to the amount of armor you wear.
In other words, your number of chicks seems to be reversely proportionate to the amount of armor you wear.
Yeah, it just takes too long to get the armour off in the heat of the moment, totally cramps your style, you know?
Weapon Celeterity (Combat)
... Add 1 ½ times your Dexterity modifier to damage
That's too good. Only Str should be able to do that. The feat I proposed only gives the average of Dex and Str modifiers instead of Str, because that gives a less dramatic boost for a single feat than full Dex mod (I'm trying to make it better balanced alongside Weapon Specialization). If that's too weak, surely full Dex mod is enough?
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A simple solution which has worked wonderfully for my group for the last 3 years; everyone gets Weapon Finesse for free. This works out to be an extra feat for Dex-based combatants, which helps to make up the damage gap without being overpowered.
If the character were to get the Weapon Finesse feat from another source, we simply convert it to a Weapon Focus feat with any finessable weapon.
The feat I proposed only gives the average of Dex and Str modifiers instead of Str
It would be a slight pain to calculate.
Full dex mod seems better.
A simple solution which has worked wonderfully for my group for the last 3 years; everyone gets Weapon Finesse for free.
I also suggested that! When no one showed interest, I proposed half that for free instead.
It would be a slight pain to calculate.
Full dex mod seems better.
Agreed, it's not as tidy as full Dex mod. I proposed it because several people pointed out that full Dex mod in place of Str mod can make the bonus too extreme for a single feat (compared to Weapon Focus). For example, if 8 Str and 20 Dex, the feat gives +6 attack. Since the bonus grows with the difference between Str and Dex, I tried halving it. I didn't think "half" would be too much of a pain to calculate (you only do it once). It's more of a pain to annotate on your character sheet. Rather than credit two stats, I would just mark it as +n finesse.
With buffs and debuffs and equipment and armor penalties, you'd have to do it more than once.
Just add your straight Dex mod to your damage with finesseable weapons, if that is what you are going to do. Don't replace Str mod, just stack them - finesse fighters are usually less strong anyway, it's precision damage (not strength) so logically there's no reason they shouldn't stack, and finesse weapons are not exactly churning out damage.
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Intelligence 13 {optionally, Combat Expertise}.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not effect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
Normal: Usually only strength modifier is added to damage.
With buffs and debuffs and equipment and armor penalties, you'd have to do it more than once.
Good point. It's unfortunate.
So what do people think of making Weapon Finesse (as written in the Core Rulebook) free and adding a feat that gives the same bonus to damage? Is that too strong? Even if the bonus damage is precision damage and doesn't multiply on a critical?
Just add your straight Dex mod to your damage with finesseable weapons, if that is what you are going to do. Don't replace Str mod, just stack them - finesse fighters are usually less strong anyway, it's precision damage (not strength) so logically there's no reason they shouldn't stack, and finesse weapons are not exactly churning out damage.
Stacking is more balanced for low Str (like 6 or 8), but it seems too good for characters with both high Str and high Dex.
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Intelligence 13 {optionally, Combat Expertise}.
I don't know what I think about denying Dex damage to average Int characters. The quick-witted duelist with a rapier fits this idea, but I wonder if it leaves out other Dex damage types.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not effect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
I like the note about armor limiting Dex modifier. I hadn't thought of that in this context.
Normal: Usually only strength modifier is added to damage.
"Usually" is redundant with "Normal".
EDIT: Then again, a character with high Str and high Dex dumps other stats, so maybe it's fair. Weapon Specialization gives +2 damage; even if this feat does more, it's a lower damage weapon. I think I like it!