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Currently in pathfinder, any build using Weapon Finesse is basically non-viable. The bonus damage from Strength is the single best method of dealing damage with a weapon, especially when using two-handed weapons, and the bonus from power attack is just gravy.
Going the weapon finesse route not only costs significant damage, it also costs a feat. All this offers in return is better reflex saves and a higher touch AC. Note that, until you can get dex to 30 or higher, you really don't gain any AC, due to max dex bonus on armor - dex of 28-29 = +9 modifier = full plate and dex of 12.
(EDIT: the break-away is actually dex 36 - full plate is +9, and mithril bumps the dex bonus up, so 9+3 = 12 = dex 34-35. This threshold also represents the theoretical maximum possible dex within the current rules.)
If the damage scaling issue were fixed, would Weapon Finesse be worth taking? In other words, would it be worth taking a feat to, say, add 1/2 strength modifier as a bonus to reflex saves and touch AC? If so, then Weapon Finesse in and of itself is balanced, and the problem lies with damage scaling (or the lack thereof). Otherwise, more work is needed.
The other part of the potential solution is to fix the weapon scaling. Let the Weapon Finesse feat also allow the character add his dex bonus to weapon damage instead of his strength bonus, complete with doubling for two-handed weapons.
What I'm not clear on is what this would do to two-weapon builds, and more importantly, to the power-gamey and rather odd two-weapon "shield basher" builds. Ideally, it would result in two-weapon fighting being more viable, and the "shield basher" build being less viable, but I'm not sure if shields can be "finessed". I really want them to not be finessable, as that's just silly, but I'm honestly not clear on specifics. (Seriously, the current best two-weapon build is the one that dual-wields shields. I know why it works, but it bothers me.)
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I see where you're going with this, I think that, mechanically speaking, both of your suggested feats are too much. They both break the mechanics of the game (see the spoiler at the end for my explanations why I believe this to be true).
Instead, I propoe these new Feats:
You are superbly trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, STR 11+, BAB 5+
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your damage rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
You are so strong that you can often sidestep even the lightest blows.
Prerequisites: Heavy Armor Profiency
Benefit: If you are not encumbered, you may add 1/2 your Strength bonus to your Touch AC, even in heavy armor.
Your strong athletic build lets you bound out of the way of trouble that a weaker man could not avoid.
Prerequisites: DEX 13+
Benefit: You may use your Strength bonus instead of your Dexterity bonus to calculate your Reflex saving throw.
I support MAD (Multiple Ability-score Dependency). I think every character in the game should need at least 3-4 ability scores. I dislike characters roaming the world with a 20 in one ability score and 10s or less everywhere else. Yes, yes, such people might actually exist in real life (Stephen Hawking, 20 INT, everything else is horrible) but I think adventurers should be heroic, and should be multi-faceted.
Sure, that's just my opinion, but the existing game mechanics support it somewhat.
Your proposition would allow, with a single feat, completely undermining any need for an entire ability score. With one feat, someone could build a STR 6 fighter if they want to, and if we're using point buy, the bonus points from tanking the STR can be added to other places and that will more than pay for the cost of one feat, espcially to a fighter who gets 21 feats in his career.
That would make this feat overpowered. Game-breakingly overpowered.
Especially when you consider the fact that there are other ways to get very good AC without wearing full plate. A really high dex and Bracers of Armor get you more AC than a mediocre dex and magical full plate. And if it ALSO gets you really high bonuses To Hit and to Damage, and and to Saves and and to Initiative and and to Ranged Attacks, then this character would be a god.
I would suggest that if you do want to make STR irrelevent, then add another feat that lets you use DEX instead of STR for damage. Make Weapon Finesse a prerequisite and put a higher BAB on it, like at least a BAB of 5. That way people need to at least survive a few levels before they can completely invalidate Strength.
Me, I would also put a prerequisite of having a STR of 11+ on the feat. Mechanically, it's important not to break the system, and realistically, if you're too weak to properly wield your weapon, no amount of DEX in the world will let you strike with pinpoint lethality while your weapon is dragging on the ground. I mean, look at successful fencers in the real world. Those guys take off their shirts and they are ripped. Maybe not Mr. Universe body builders, but they are definitely strong and fit; and they need to be in order to succeed at their sport.
Even at the cost of two feats, this is still somewhat overpowered, but the fact that they can't tank their STR (11+ requirement) and have to survive several levels without the feat balances it a little.
As for your first suggestion, a single feat that adds 1/2 STR bonus to Touch AC and REF saves, that sounds like two feats right there, not one.
Think about this: there is no feat in the core game that adds more than 1 point to your AC without giving up something else. There is no feat in the core game that adds more than +2 to your REF save. But your proposed feat will definitely add bigger bonuses to both when taken by any melee class that uses STR-based weapons.
Way overpowered.
Even as two feats, the first part for Touch AC is probably OK but the second part as REF save is still overpowered - you'll have musclebound fighters with greatswords and huge STR scores who are better at dodging full damage from fireballs than most rogues.
Based on that, I would say your second feat uses STR bonus instead of DEX bonus on reflex saves, and it should requie a DEX prerequisite as well for game balance.
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I know this isn't the most popular opinion, but I am of the opinion that not everything should be a viable option. This is based on a few other basic opinions/assumptions:
1. Even playing for all options is a myth. No matter what you do, there will always be better/worse numerical options. If this weren't the case then there'd be no point in having options. The only difference would be the "graphics" and words used.
2. I like my "role" in role-playing games to be role meaning "job". In order to foster team dynamics you shouldn't be able to say match a fighter in combat with something that isn't also a straight fighting-man character class (yes OD&D jargon is intentional :-) The Finese feat is best used by characters who aren't fighters to give them a slight boost, but shouldn't step on the toes of the one designed around it.
3. I know I had a third reason. . . . but it escapes me, so now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
Add half dex modifier to damage, in addition to strength modifier. Increases damage significantly without making strength obsolete. Either make a new feat for it or make it a part of weapon finesse itself.
Currently in pathfinder, any build using Weapon Finesse is basically non-viable.
I don't disagree that a Strength-based character is going to deal more damage than a Dex-based character with WF *by itself* with no further mechanics. I also agree that in a situation where stat points are inflated beyond the standard point buy, if you can get away with pumping Strength all day, that's a great strategy for melee-focused builds.
However, I don't think this argument takes into consideration all the combat factors and standard point buy game restrictions. For example, your AC argument doesn't make much sense from the rogue perspective -- they're practically never going to wear heavy armor. Rogues also want a high Reflex save. Rogues have uncanny dodge, which is very useful if you have a high Dexterity bonus. Damage output would be nice with a Strength-based build -- but you're trading a damage increase for a big survivability hit.
If you can pump Dex AND Str with huge numbers (very high point buys/lucky rolls), then yes, focusing on Strength is optimal. For instance, you need a fairly high Dex score to use TWF as a fighter. If you're playing 15 point buy, it's difficult to justify pumping Str while maintaining a very high Dex. The other stats (primary Con, but also Wis) suffer if you do this.
I agree that WF is overused, and many players attempt to use it to make a silly concept work. But I think it's quite a stretch to call all uses of it "non-viable".
3.5 material had a large number of ways to apply different stats to damage.
For Dex, there was Shadow Hand Somethingerever from Tome of battle that added dexterity to damage with a few specific weapons. There was also CoCL that added dexterity to damage, but had really bizarre entry feats.
There was also the swashbuckler that added intelligence to damage, ,which was I believe the most popular.
It seem pretty viable for Rogues who would have to spend a Feat or multi-class to get Heavy Armor Proficiency in the first place (and doing so would still gimp their Acrobatics/Tumbling), and who don't need to depend on STR for damage anyways.
It also seems viable for Casters who don't plan on doing much actual weapon-based melee, but want their Touch spells to count when they use them and tend to favor DEX over STR anyways because it's useful for Ranged Touch attacks and their defense, while they don't really need STR for anything.
Any ranged focus character (DEX>STR) might like it for when they are forced into combat, or for AoO's, etc.
Other than that? No, it doesn't seem viable.
Are high Strength and high Dexterity mutually exclusive?
With Point Buy? Yes. With non-unlimited wealth/magic item budget? Yes?
And if you DO have both high STR and high DEX, you obviously don't need Weapon Finesse in the first place.
Are high Strength and high Dexterity mutually exclusive?
-Skeld
No, but this requires far more resources than just one or the other. Assuming you start with a race w/o adjustments for both, you'll need to spend 2X the resources to attain them. For every Dex boost you'll need a Str boost and vice versa. If you can help it, you try to focus on one or the other. Do you really want to try to track down a tome for both Strength and Dexterity +5 or make them?
Weapon Finesse is not a feat you design a melee character arround if you want to be dealing maximum damage, but you can use it to make non-optimized characters who are still quite viable or allow a non-melee character to become viable in melee. I think it works quite well for its intended purpose.
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I made the following feat.
Weapon Celerity
Prerequisites: base attack +1, weapon finesse
When wielding a finessable weapon you may add your Dexterity modifier to damage in place of Strength. This bonus is halved in your off hand. If you wield a one handed finessable weapon in one while wielding nothing in the other you may add 1 1/2 times your Dexterity modifier to damage. This counts as precision damage.
So far four different characters in my gaming group have used this feat. The monk has been the monk effective, but she doesn't have power attack so it's had to say if it's overpowered.
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No, but this requires far more resources than just one or the other. Assuming you start with a race w/o adjustments for both, you'll need to spend 2X the resources to attain them. For every Dex boost you'll need a Strength boost and vice versa. If you can help it, you try to focus on one or the other. Do you really want to try to track down a tome for both Strength and Dexterity +5 or make them?
This is the answer I was looking for. This sounds like it's less about Weapon Finesse being a "viable" option as opposed to it being not the optimal option. Stated differently: I want to be a Dex-focused melee Rogue, but my lack of Strength hinders me from doing high-Strength damage. Restated again: I want Dex to be my "everything" stat.
Weapon Finesse is already a viable option. It give Rogues, or other Dex-based characters, an extra nugget to go along with their bump to AC (which is really just mitigation against their lack of armor), Reflex, ranged attack bonus, and skills. Dex, as an ability, already does alot of important stuff.
Just my thoughts.
-Skeld
No, but this requires far more resources than just one or the other. Assuming you start with a race w/o adjustments for both, you'll need to spend 2X the resources to attain them. For every Dex boost you'll need a Strength boost and vice versa. If you can help it, you try to focus on one or the other. Do you really want to try to track down a tome for both Strength and Dexterity +5 or make them?This is the answer I was looking for. This sounds like it's less about Weapon Finesse being a "viable" option as opposed to it being not the optimal option. Stated differently: I want to be a Dex-focused melee Rogue, but my lack of Strength hinders me from doing high-Strength damage. Restated again: I want Dex to be my "everything" stat.
Weapon Finesse is already a viable option. It give Rogues, or other Dex-based characters, an extra nugget to go along with their bump to AC (which is really just mitigation against their lack of armor), Reflex, ranged attack bonus, and skills. Dex, as an ability, already does alot of important stuff.
Just my thoughts.
-Skeld
The problem is, you end up with a character that has high AC, fairly good attack bonus, and then all his attacks lightly tickle the monster.
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If you're a rogue, I'd personally say to just forget Strength and go all Dex. The + to damage doesn't matter that much, your damage should be coming from sneak attacks, bleed, and other things. Or just get a 13 Str and take Power Attack, that's still a damn fine feat even with just a one-handed weapon.
If you're a rogue, I'd personally say to just forget Strength and go all Dex. The + to damage doesn't matter that much, your damage should be coming from sneak attacks, bleed, and other things. Or just get a 13 Str and take Power Attack, that's still a damn fine feat even with just a one-handed weapon.
Bingo.
Take a level 20 rogue, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse daggers, flanking...
Sure your dagger may do 1d4+5(enchant)+3(str of say 16), but you also add 10d6 damage per attack.
That is 6 potential hits, dealing 1d4+8+10d6 EACH. (potentially 6d4+48+60d6)
Weapon finesse is viable, just has to be for the right class. Ranger who focuses on a bow is forced to draw a melee weapon - chances are their dex is cranked and their str is .... meh.
The initial calculation is also way off. No character with a 28 Dex is going to be walking around with no armor. Furthermore, high Dex characters can use shields without penalty.
For pratical purposes, a 20 Dex character (+5) with a mithral shirt (+4), is the same as someone in Full Plate (+8) with a +1 Dex. Actually, he's better since he has a high Touch AC, and he didn't need Medium or Heavy armor prof. The full plate guy PAID to be great in armor...he SHOULD get a higher AC then a Dex character!
It also falls down at higher levels, because Dex goes unlimited, but Armor is restricted to +5. A Character in Mithral Plate +5, Lg. Shield +5, Dex 17 is AC 33...not bad! Touch AC? Base...13.
The Character with Dex 36, Bracers +8, and Lg shield +5 is AC...38. Touch AC? Base...23. nd he can stack wis bonuses to AC, int bonuses to AC, etc, which an armored character cannot do.
This AC problem is one of those 4E did a most excellent job in fixing. The max AC+Dex of every class of armor is +1 as it increases (caps on max stats help, too). With 5 classes of armor (none, light, chain, splint, plate), the max AC possible goes up by exactly 1. So, armor profs actually mean something.
There's nothing inherently wrong with adding Dex to dmg with finessable weapons. There's nothing wrong with starting a character with weapon finesse if he wants to give up armor profs, either.
==Aelryinth
Creative Director
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I'm currently playtesting a form of improved weapon finesse that lets you add your Dex mod to damage and it seems to be doing okay; the rogue in the group isn't outshining the fighter type much, but I've not done MUCH testing yet.
That said... Weapon Finesse isn't really meant to let you do lots more damage as much as it is to let you just HIT more often. Characters who use Weapon Finesse (basically, rogues or maybe TWF types) are going to be doing additional damage not because they modify their damage with high STR but because they're adding on sneak attack damage or because they're making a lot more attacks with TWF. But those extra attacks or sneak attack damage doesn't count at all if they miss, so Weapon Finesse helps them get their non STR damage to the victim.
To be open about it upfront, I'm a big fan of WF, especially for purposes of giving non-strength based characters a chance to, if not become front line fighters, at least hold their own when they find themselves facing unavoidable melee. OK, also I sometimes like to use it to "make a... concept work" (how silly a concept is up for debate). So I can see the draw of a follow-on feat that uses DEX to increase damage. I can even see the rationae behind it: Dexterity and skill with the weapon allow the character to make more precise attacks, and strike more vital areas on the target.
But we already have a game mechanic that deals with increased damage caused by WHERE you hit your target: It's called a critical. So rather than add the dex bonus to damage, I'd rather see follow-ons that buff the WF user's capacity for delivering criticals. The first idea that comes to mind, and this is just off the top of my head, is adding language to the Weapon Finesse Feat itself that states that characters with it can add their dex bonus to their BAB for the purpose of determining eligibility for the Improved Critical Feat, and/or the Critical Focus Feat Tree.
I'm currently playtesting a form of improved weapon finesse that lets you add your Dex mod to damage and it seems to be doing okay; the rogue in the group isn't outshining the fighter type much, but I've not done MUCH testing yet.
That said... Weapon Finesse isn't really meant to let you do lots more damage as much as it is to let you just HIT more often. Characters who use Weapon Finesse (basically, rogues or maybe TWF types) are going to be doing additional damage not because they modify their damage with high STR but because they're adding on sneak attack damage or because they're making a lot more attacks with TWF. But those extra attacks or sneak attack damage doesn't count at all if they miss, so Weapon Finesse helps them get their non STR damage to the victim.
The one feat I never take for two-weapon fighting? Greater two weapon fighting. It's an attack at, at best, -12. That is so unbelievably terrible. For that reason I've been making all my two-weapon fighters strength monsters with decent dexterity. Could you see about a way to make greater TWF worth a feat? Maybe have it eliminate the -2 penalty for fighting with two weapons in addition to giving that -10 attack? It'd be a nice reward for investing so many feats in the tree.
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I find Weapon Finesse with the right feat choices with it an extremely good build. In our local PFS group, I have the most effective fighter in the group. I can hit 90% of the time.
Here is the build:
Cristian Aldori
Fighter 7
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 10 (yes I play him as a stuck up prick)
FC: Fighter
Feats: Exotic Wpn Prof: Aldori Dueling Sword
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus: ADS
Agile Maneuvers
Combat Expertise
Wpn Specialization
Improved Feint (found later I should have taken Dodge)
Lunge
Vital Strike
Traits: Reactionary and Suspicious
Major Equipment: Breast Plate +1
Aldori Dueling Sword +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Current AC: 22 (7 armor, 4 dex, 1 deflection)
Aldori Dueling Sword: +15/+10 1d8+8
When using Lunge, Vital Strike, and Combat Expertise: 10ft reach +13 2d8+8 AC 22
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +8 Will +4 (+2 vs Fear)
So My AC is only a point or two lower than the heavy armor fighters, and my damage output is actually HIGHER since I hit much more often, even if I don't do as much per hit.
Cha 10 (yes I play him as a stuck up prick)
Wouldn't that suggest a CHA below 10?
He thinks he is superior to most others, though he can cooperate.
Got it. I just figured that being a real jerk implies a BELOW average CHA. 10 isn't great, it's not even good, but it is at least AVERAGE.
Wouldn't that suggest a CHA below 10?
Cha 10 (yes I play him as a stuck up prick)
LOL, I agree.
10 is average. The average person I meet on the street, in a restaurant, at the mall, at work, or wherever, doesn't generally seem to classify as a S.U.P. - some do, but not the average.
Weapon Finesse seems quite viable for the 13th level rogue with dual short swords in my group. The high touch AC and reflex save has saved him in a number of fights. Not every feat needs to be perfect for every build.
Of course, every time he says "go ahead and include me in that area spell, I can evade it," he rolls a 1. That's another matter entirely.
I'm currently playtesting a form of improved weapon finesse that lets you add your Dex mod to damage and it seems to be doing okay; the rogue in the group isn't outshining the fighter type much, but I've not done MUCH testing yet.
That said... Weapon Finesse isn't really meant to let you do lots more damage as much as it is to let you just HIT more often. Characters who use Weapon Finesse (basically, rogues or maybe TWF types) are going to be doing additional damage not because they modify their damage with high STR but because they're adding on sneak attack damage or because they're making a lot more attacks with TWF. But those extra attacks or sneak attack damage doesn't count at all if they miss, so Weapon Finesse helps them get their non STR damage to the victim.
what about bards? TWF rangers? TWF rogues? Monks? TWF Fighters?
TWF rogues need a source of static damage that doesn't come from sneak attack. maybe a special improved weapon finesse that adds dexterity modifier instead of strength modifier to damage with light weapons? rogues are screwed when they can't get sneak attack. this lessens the intensity of it. heck, it'll allow monks to actually contribute. i have played rogues that felt useless because they were crippled By damage reduction. rogues are supposed to be glass cannons, all i see is lots of "glass" and no "cannon."
Any thoughts on my Crit suggestion?
here is my proposal to make weapon finesse viable
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.
Any thoughts on my Crit suggestion?
Not fond of it myself. I think Weapon Finesse is fine just the way it is. The people who can use it (the limited selection that is mostly just rogues, more or less) will take it and get great use out of it. For everyone else that thinks this is a "trap" feat, adding this little modifier (that would mean nothing in higher levels anyway) won't make it much less of a "trap".
And I wouldn't want that as a separate feat unto itself because I don't like feats that become useless later. Sure, it would be nice for my rogue to get Improved Critical at 3rd level. But when he's 15th level he's surely going to wish he had something useful instead of that feat that doesn't do a thing for him now.
It's a nice idea, but I just think it falls flat on living up to its intent.
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Creative Director
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what about bards? TWF rangers? TWF rogues? Monks? TWF Fighters?
Bards, as much as I love them, are not the best combat class. They get their extra damage in combat by helping themselves and others; in a group of 5 players, a bard can give a damage bonus to all sorts of folks. If you're playing a bard, you need to adopt the "my extra damage is spread out among all my friends" way of thinking; if you can't do that, you should probably play a rogue instead.
As for TWF, though, adding a new attack is better than adding a bonus to hit, and adding a bonus to hit is better than adding a bonus to damage. So with TWF, you're getting more attacks instead of more damage, and over the long haul, more attacks will result in overall more damage than a mere damage bonus.
And as for monks... I've actually seen core monks built that do GREAT in combat (see Treantmonk's guide for proof; Rob McCreary used that to build a monk in a playtest and that 13th level monk was doing about 100 points of damage a round)... but the point of the monk, despite what some folks think, is NOT to do lots of damage in one round. The point of the monk is that he's super defensive; he doesn't need to do as much damage because in theory he'll be around longer than other classes with his mobility and high AC and all that to, over the long term, do more damage.
Anyway, if you want a character that just does a huge pile of damage with a hit, generally your best bet is to do a high strength 2H weapon character; he hits less often but does more damage on a hit, whereas the TWF or finesse character will hit more often (or will have things like sneak attack) simply because he's making more attacks, not necessarily because he has a higher attack roll. Buffing up TWF or the like to do equal damage to a 2H build is only marginalizing the 2H build. It's power creep, in other words.
If folks DO want to try out some sort of "Greater Weapon Finesse" feat, it's a good idea to test it out when you have some 2H fighter types around too for comparison. Again, that's what I'm doing in my Serpent's Skull campaign I'm running, and so far it seems to work pretty good.
Hello, Mr. Fishy here and...Mr. Fishy took weapon finesse.>Waits for the group to acknowledge him< Mr. Fishy knows that weapon finesse is wrong but Mr. Fishy's sneak attack damage requires him to connect with his attack.
Mr. Fishy doesn't need a high str to do 4d6/18-20 crit twice a round but he does need to hit and that is were weapon finesse comes in. Mr. Fishy has a Paladin, a Barbarian and a Fighter with a big sword to carry Mr. Fishy's stuff. Mr. Fishy has a 5 level rogue that can hit twice for 8D6+1. Weapon finesse was never meant for heavy fighter types who hit with their high STR. Weapon finesse was for poor rogue to get a sneak at once in a while.
what about bards? TWF rangers? TWF rogues? Monks? TWF Fighters?Bards, as much as I love them, are not the best combat class. They get their extra damage in combat by helping themselves and others; in a group of 5 players, a bard can give a damage bonus to all sorts of folks. If you're playing a bard, you need to adopt the "my extra damage is spread out among all my friends" way of thinking; if you can't do that, you should probably play a rogue instead.
As for TWF, though, adding a new attack is better than adding a bonus to hit, and adding a bonus to hit is better than adding a bonus to damage. So with TWF, you're getting more attacks instead of more damage, and over the long haul, more attacks will result in overall more damage than a mere damage bonus.
And as for monks... I've actually seen core monks built that do GREAT in combat (see Treantmonk's guide for proof; Rob McCreary used that to build a monk in a playtest and that 13th level monk was doing about 100 points of damage a round)... but the point of the monk, despite what some folks think, is NOT to do lots of damage in one round. The point of the monk is that he's super defensive; he doesn't need to do as much damage because in theory he'll be around longer than other classes with his mobility and high AC and all that to, over the long term, do more damage.
Anyway, if you want a character that just does a huge pile of damage with a hit, generally your best bet is to do a high strength 2H weapon character; he hits less often but does more damage on a hit, whereas the TWF or finesse character will hit more often (or will have things like sneak attack) simply because he's making more attacks, not necessarily because he has a higher attack roll. Buffing up TWF or the like to do equal damage to a 2H build is only marginalizing the 2H build. It's power creep, in other words.
If folks DO want to try out some sort of "Greater Weapon Finesse" feat, it's a good idea to test it out when you have some 2H...
here is a question Mr. Jacobs. and a request?
is this the feat you are talking about?
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.
this feat needs to be playtested and published, my DM is so closed minded that he disregards anything unofficial. will you put this feat in one of your upcoming pathfinder splatbooks for me? maybe the advanced players guide?
Any thoughts on my Crit suggestion?Not fond of it myself. I think Weapon Finesse is fine just the way it is. The people who can use it (the limited selection that is mostly just rogues, more or less) will take it and get great use out of it. For everyone else that thinks this is a "trap" feat, adding this little modifier (that would mean nothing in higher levels anyway) won't make it much less of a "trap".
And I wouldn't want that as a separate feat unto itself because I don't like feats that become useless later. Sure, it would be nice for my rogue to get Improved Critical at 3rd level. But when he's 15th level he's surely going to wish he had something useful instead of that feat that doesn't do a thing for him now.
It's a nice idea, but I just think it falls flat on living up to its intent.
To some extent, I see your point, but a couple of responses come to mind:
First, if it were true that everyone either thinks the Feat works just fine as it is, or is such a trap that it's useless, then the OP wouldn't have brought this up in the first place. They apparently WANT to like it but thinks it falls short.
Second, the argument regarding it only being useful at lower levels: Not sure I buy it. As it stands, the Improved Critical is a Feat that you HAVE to be at at least midrange levels to acquire. If a higher level character would willingly take it AT those levels, why would it be a waste to get it earlier, at a level where many of the feats you NORMALLY could take WOULD be useless within a few levels? But to pay tribute to your point, I'd suggest the Critical Focus tree would be a better option for my suggestion.
The feat I'm playtesting in my game is actually a variant of the Dervish Dance feat from the Qadira Companion, but that works with rapiers.
In fact, the Dervish Dance feat might be the best bet for you if you're looking for an actual published feat that does this type of thing.
but dervish dance doesn't work with TWF. and i really don't like being shoehorned into using scimitars. i request that you publish the feat i posted. it needs to be published bad. so that weapon finesse actually becomes a viable option worth considering.
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.
Tell your DM that Mr. Fishy said it's OK.
Tell your DM that Mr. Fishy said it's OK.
Good enough for me.
I personally see the purpose of Weapon Finesse as being allowing any character with more Dex than Str and less than full BAB to hit effectively. It is a perfectly viable choice for such characters. Is it an optimal choice - generally no.
Viable =/= Optimal
I'm not against a damage boosting enhancement. I feel it wouldn't be a bad idea. I just don't feel any more strongly about it than that.
The first idea that comes to mind, and this is just off the top of my head, is adding language to the Weapon Finesse Feat itself that states that characters with it can add their dex bonus to their BAB for the purpose of determining eligibility for the Improved Critical Feat, and/or the Critical Focus Feat Tree.The idea of cutting the earlies level a feat with a BAB requirement of +8 in half doesn't sit well with me. If I were to alter Weapon Finesse with an eye toward boosting crits, I would most likely have it increase the threat range of finessable weapons by 1 (20=>19-20, 19-20=>18-20, etc.) and have the effect apply before (stack with) Improved Critical.
That's a valid point, I think arguing that it's overpowered is more convincing to me than saying it's useless later on. And your expanded threat range idea has a ring of soundness to it. I just think that from a flavor standpoint, critical enhancements seem more in line with a dex-based form of combat than the brute force feel of a damage bonus.
but dervish dance doesn't work with TWF. and i really don't like being shoehorned into using scimitars. i request that you publish the feat i posted. it needs to be published bad.
It needs to be published bad? Why would we want a bad feat? Let's make a good feat!
Oh, maybe you meant "it badly needs to be published", in which case I disagree. I never liked this feat, and I still don't.
It will be a "MUST HAVE" feat for every DEX-based melee character on the planet. No feat should ever be a "must have" feat. Anything that you know, without a doubt, will be used by Everyone who is eligible to take it is clearly overpowered.
I also don't like it because, as I said higher on this thread, it drives the last nail into Strength's coffin. Nobody needs strength anymore. Use a point-buy system, get yourself an 18 DEX, drop your STR down to 6, put those extra points into CON or maybe even WIS, get a couple quick feats that any fighter can pick up at level 1, and you're set - way, way more powerful than any normal level 1 character who puts points into STR and DEX.
so that weapon finesse actually becomes a viable option worth considering.
Yes, if by "viable option worth considering" you mean "mandatory and game-breaking requirement".
I posted a much less game-breaking version of the same thing in the second post on this thread. It is right here and Paizo is welcome to it if they want it. But I won't demand it or request it; I'll just point at it and wag my armored tail.
But I won't demand it or request it; I'll just point at it and wag my armored tail.
NOT INSIDE, DAMMIT! You're breaking stuff again!
With my rogue (rogue 5/swashbuckler 3) and the TWF/Imp. TWF feats I deal considerable damage when I apply my sneak attack and I only have a Str 10. Now, the Sneak Attack is the ONLY reason I do a ton of damage (somewhere in the area of 70+ DPR with 3 successful attacks) but with my Dex of 20 and Weapon Finesse I'm able to hit often and it works with the build. When I gain 9th level, I'll be adding in the Shadow Hand feat (add Dex mod to damage with the Shadow Hand weapons) plus my insightful strike (Int mod to damage) and it'll end up being 1d6+8 (Dex +5, Int +2, enhancement +1) per attack. With 3 successful attacks w/o Sneak Attack that 3d6+24. Not too shabby for a 9th level character and a Str of 10.
As far as AC goes, a +5 mithral chain shirt will net you a Max AC of 15 (+9 armor, +6 Dex) which if you compare to the +5 mithral full plate of 17 (+14 armor, +3 Dex) is only a difference of 2 and a high Dex leads to a better Reflex save and touch AC. For an up front sword/board meat-shield then I'd go Strength over Dex, but for a flighty rogue, duelist, or swashbuckler Dex is the way to go.
NOT INSIDE, DAMMIT! You're breaking stuff again!But I won't demand it or request it; I'll just point at it and wag my armored tail.
What? Who me?
but dervish dance doesn't work with TWF. and i really don't like being shoehorned into using scimitars. i request that you publish the feat i posted. it needs to be published bad.It needs to be published bad? Why would we want a bad feat? Let's make a good feat!
Oh, maybe you meant "it badly needs to be published", in which case I disagree. I never liked this feat, and I still don't.
It will be a "MUST HAVE" feat for every DEX-based melee character on the planet. No feat should ever be a "must have" feat. Anything that you know, without a doubt, will be used by Everyone who is eligible to take it is clearly overpowered.
I also don't like it because, as I said higher on this thread, it drives the last nail into Strength's coffin. Nobody needs strength anymore. Use a point-buy system, get yourself an 18 DEX, drop your STR down to 6, put those extra points into CON or maybe even WIS, get a couple quick feats that any fighter can pick up at level 1, and you're set - way, way more powerful than any normal level 1 character who puts points into STR and DEX.
so that weapon finesse actually becomes a viable option worth considering.Yes, if by "viable option worth considering" you mean "mandatory and game-breaking requirement".
I posted a much less game-breaking version of the same thing in the second post on this thread. It is right here and Paizo is welcome to it if they want it. But I won't demand it or request it; I'll just point at it and wag my armored tail.
the option i propose only applies to light weaposn. it gives the illusion of freeing up stat points, but dumping dtrength that low denies you access to many options. a whole armory of weapons and a whole montage of feats. in fact, certain feat chains will be beyond your reach. that alone is a downside to dumping strength. you are trading some freedom for a few extra stat points. you are also taking a hit to CMB, CMD, a few useful skills, carrying capacity and are taxed 2 feats by the dumping of strength you think this feat lets you do. strength is still important. the feat isn't mandantory, it just appears to be. it doesn't turn weapon finesse into the most broken feat in the planet. it's still balanced, not by excessive built in requirements, but by common sense. it also reduces the multiple attribute dependancy of several builds. it's still there, just less prounounced.
How about some thing more in line with power attack.
Accurate attack: -1AC/+2damage Finesse only weapons improves as power attack.
High Dex characters get a damage bonus at the cost of their Dex to AC instead of to hit. Kick it a few times, see what happens.
Commons sense is not a good arguement, think about the gamers you know. Common sense is not a gamer trait angery, crazy, stupid yes,
sensible not so much.