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First off, this post and discussion may take a nasty turn, I'm well aware of that but I am fully committed to keeping the discussion civil despite the "instigating" nature of this post itself.
What I'd like to discuss is what should the role of 3rd party Pathfinder web sites be?
As part of full disclosure, I run a web site called the Pathfinder Database.
I've also seen sites such as the d20 Pathfinder SRD and the Archives of Nethys and the Pathfinder Wiki.
Now I am fully assuming that we're all playing nice by Paizo's Community Use policy and respecting their Terms of Use. But what I've started to get really confused about is:
How does a site like the Archives of Nethys encourage me to buy any published material from Paizo which includes the same rules? In addition, how does the Pathfinder Wiki encourage me to buy any additional sourcebooks if I can basically gain much of the same information from the wiki.
I've just really been conflicted lately as to whether the ability to publish something on the web for free actually helps or hinders the sales of Paizo's products.
As always, if you think this is irrelevant or a useless discussion please ignore the thread and let it die. However, I would really like to hear a Paizo employee's opinion on the subject.
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I know that I frequent Pathfinder Wiki a lot. A site like that keeps me informed on Golarion, which means I can buy a Chronicles book or a module or what have you and not feel completely in over my head. It, and the other sites you listed, yours included, encourages the community feel that I want from with my RPG experience. Knowing Paizo supports that community makes me appreciate them more as a company and want to do my part to contribute to their success.
By that same token, I have purchased DVDs of The Guild and compilations of Order of the Stick and Looking For Group. Because I'm a fan, I happily paid for content I have consumed before and for free.
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Hey Tahsin! I'll promise to remain as civil as possible, assuming others do the same. I'm glad you brought this up because its been in the back of my mind for some time as well.
First, for full disclosure (in case its not painfully obvious from the username) I am the original instigator behind d20pfsrd.com. I am by no means the only person though as we have about 120 collaborators signed on with at least 20-30 regular contributors actively posting content.
I'll explain my "mission statement" as it were and then try to see if I can shoehorn in how I feel we contribute to the overall success of Paizo. Paizo may disagree, so this will be just my theory.
Mission Statement/Goal
"To be the largest storehouse of Open Content created for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game."
That's pretty straightfoward but it may need some clarification.
First, our goals/reasons for existing:
- To serve as a backup of the PRD in the unlikely event Paizo were to cease operation or the PRD were not available for whatever reason (temporary or otherwise).
- To add functionality/features not available in the official PRD, such as databases of all major rules components (feats, traits, spells, monsters, etc).
- To be a central location for content converted by the community from previous rules editions to PFRPG.
- To help encourage growth in the PFRPG market, meaning, to help increase the reach and spread of PFRPG by way of promoting sales of Paizo content and 3rd Party content, as well as non-commercial community generated content.
Now I'll move on to responding to your specific questions.
I've also seen sites such as the d20 Pathfinder SRD and the Archives of Nethys and the Pathfinder Wiki.
1) Your site: I can't see how your site could possibly result in any sort of negative for Paizo as you do not reproduce official content.
2) Archives of Nethys/d20pfsrd.com: I believe the goal of the Archives of Nethys is to be basically the same as d20pfsrd.com except ONLY holding PFS legal content. I suppose for those playing mostly PFS then that would be helpful not having to sort through all of the content on d20pfsrd.com to get to the subset that is legal for PFS play. In any event, just as with d20pfsrd.com I can easily see how it could conceivably result in a net reduction in sales for Paizo.
However, in the case of d20pfsrd.com, we attempt to drive sales to Paizo by including links to the product purchase page for the resources we duplicate/repost. In addition, we had/have an unofficial understanding not to post content until the content has been available in the original form for X amount of time. In the case of Kobold Quarterly that delay was one month for the magazine and 2 weeks for web content. In the case of the APG playtest classes, I agreed to Jason's request to delay posting content for at least 2 weeks from the time it is available on Paizo, which we adhered to pretty well.
Now, in the case of Kobold Quarterly I've basically become disenchanted with them and have abandoned reposting their content since so little of it is open content. However, that is their right and so it is what it is. Its the same thing with Rite Publishing. I saw some neat content on their website and wanted to link it into the rules on d20pfsrd.com and asked for a clearer indicator as to what was open and what wasn't and I got a somewhat terse response saying they were not interested in the content being reposted. The unfortunate part is that, as I understand it, if you are distributing content under the OGL you MUST clearly indicate what is and isn't open content, and basically NO ONE does that (other than Paizo, who very clearly indicate what is and isn't open content). I'll admit we (I) have been a bit lax lately regarding the "delay" period, especially with the content from the AA that I started posting today.
This now ties into the question of how can we both support the original content creators as well as help the community? I think that unfortunately Paizo made a mistake in giving away the entire farm with the CUP. I would have no issue complying with a more standard OGL type of arrangement, though it would certainly make d20pfsrd.com a bit less interesting I think. As it is, with the pathfinder wiki, that's pretty much ALL of the Paizo world fluff/flavor. So you take pathfinderwiki.com + d20pfsrd.com and you have the entire kit and kaboodle. If it were WotC/OGL SOME of d20pfsrd.com would be able to exist but probably NONE of pathfinderwiki would.
How does a site like the Archives of Nethys encourage me to buy any published material from Paizo which includes the same rules?
I suppose the answer would apply whether you said Archives of Nethys OR d20pfsrd.com, and that would be that people will see the content, like it, and want the missing fluff and art. I think it is probably not in our, as fans, best interests to duplicate every single last part of every single last Paizo product as it seems that over time it would surely impact their bottom lines. However, I will say again that I have brought this up in the Tuesday chats before and JJ and SKR have only ever indicated a very strong confidence in their decision to use the CUP and are very happy about their sales situation.
In addition, how does the Pathfinder Wiki encourage me to buy any additional sourcebooks if I can basically gain much of the same information from the wiki.
Not sure. Though I can tell you that from personal experience, even after I pointed the pathfinderwiki out to several people, in the following game sessions they showed up with physical books in hand. I can say that we are all mid-30's+ and funds aren't much of an issue to any of us. I'm speculating that the people I can speak of saw something they liked in the Wiki and it translated into them sending some $ to Paizo.
I've just really been conflicted lately as to whether the ability to publish something on the web for free actually helps or hinders the sales of Paizo's products.
Agreed. I'm not 100% either way on it. I think we try to drive sales, but have no idea if it makes a difference one way or another. I'd really like someone from Paizo to say something on this, but in general it would likely be a general rah-rah statement about how great everything is. Not saying they'd be lying, just would appreciate something a bit more in-depth as I see d20pfsrd.com and pathfinderwiki in particular as possibly not being ideal if they could speak truthfully. Again, not implying lying, just an inability to be 100% open about their real feelings on it.
As always, if you think this is irrelevant or a useless discussion please ignore the thread and let it die. However, I would really like to hear a Paizo employee's opinion on the subject.
Same here :)
In the end though, regardless of anything else, I can say that Paizo's open relationship with the fans and their positive attitude towards the OGL and CUP encourages me to continue purchasing product from them. Were they hostile towards the OGL I'd be much more inclined to just say screw it and run Castles and Crusades or some other system for my group/extended group. Good customer relations really goes a long way.
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Quick correction on what d20pfsrd said regarding the Archives. While I definitely mark all Pathfinder Society legal items, I by no means limit the site to those. I include *every* mechanic I can find from the Pathfinder, Chronicles, and Companions lines. :) In addition, while I have a similar setup to the d20pfsrd (in that I store mechanics and such) I don't post up any 3rd-party items. All of what I have is Paizo-created, from the lines mentioned above. And currently, I am proud to have everything from those three lines except for prestige classes and a few miscellaneous mechanics (which are being worked on as we speak).
I'll post a more detailed response about the idea of sites like mine a bit later on.
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Quick correction on what d20pfsrd said regarding the Archives. While I definitely mark all Pathfinder Society legal items, I by no means limit the site to those. I include *every* mechanic I can find from the Pathfinder, Chronicles, and Companions lines. :)
I'll post a more detailed response about the idea of sites like mine a bit later on.
Ok Karui, I apologize. I had thought the idea of your site was to only have PFS legal content.
So then the difference between your site and d20pfsrd.com is that we include Paizo AND non-Paizo content and you ONLY include Paizo content?
Just trying to understand what your goal is :)
Director of Narrative
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While I own every Paizo-produced Pathfinder book, I find sites like PathfinderWiki and the Archives of Nethys extremely useful as an index of sorts. I can do a quick search of the breadth of material and narrow down my selection to the exact book I need to pull from my shelf to get the more focused information I need. I know a number of other contributors who use (primarily the wiki) that way. So, you guys are doing good on that angle. :)
Regarding driving sales or robbing sales, I’m unsure which is happening more. I know a large section of gamers, like folks into comics, tend to want a whole run of something, and as much as the art gets discussed, I’m sure most folks would rather have the real book than just some statblocks. Just last week, I pointed a friend* to some of the very sites mentioned by the OP (and the $10 PDF). He’d been out of gaming for a while and now has the free time to play and is eager. He knows that our current group is playing Pathfinder, but he didn’t want to shell out the cash for the Core until he was sure that a) he’d be playing on a regular basis, and b) enjoyed the changes made from 3.5. Now that he’s gotten a look at some of the features, he’s going to grab a hardcopy of the book. So…win.
For the cash-strapped, sites like these allow players to actually play the game and get hooked, perhaps even buying a product every now and then that piques their interest (or, you know, the $10 PDF). They could also be like a teaser appetizer, drawing folks to purchase the books. I’ve personally never met anyone who only used websites in their gaming, but I’m sure there are some folks out there who do that.
*Said friend is terrible about returning things in a timely and undamaged manner, so I didn't feel like letting him borrow my spare copy. :)
The unfortunate part is that, as I understand it, if you are distributing content under the OGL you MUST clearly indicate what is and isn't open content, and basically NO ONE does that (other than Paizo, who very clearly indicate what is and isn't open content).
You're correct that people who use OGL material must state what is and isn't open. I also think we at Super Genius Games do a pretty good job of outlining what is and isn't open. Just look on the credits page and you'll see what we've declared Product Identity and what's Open. :D
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
This is certainly not an issue unique to Paizo. However, specific to Paizo is the notion that OGL, etc. is responsible for (X% of) their extant sales in the first place. How can you differentiate Paizo's use of OGL to profitably publish a series of books from fans' use of the same license to reproduce the same thing on the web?
Zo
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As only a consumer of Paizo products and a GM, I can tell you that our group uses Pathfinder Wiki and D20srd extensively both in game and out of game. I like the fact that we can search for a rule, feat, spell, etc, instantly and not have to spend time going through the book looking for clarification during the game, same with Golarion "fluff" and the Pathfinder Wiki. I refer my players to both as reference if they are away from the game, merely because it is an electronic, online source, easy to use in today's digital age.
I like the fact that Paizo encourages a community feeling and fan/player contribution and feedback. This may result in the loss of some revenue by having some game information being freely available thru fan websites, but it also instills a sense of fan loyalty and devotion to Paizo.
We all have copies of the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, printouts of the APG final beta, etc. to play the game. I subscribe to nearly all of the game lines, and several of my players buy their own copy of the Pathfinder Companion race or location series. We buy Paizo products because they are high quality and good value, but in truth, we also buy them to support an excellent company whose philosophy we appreciate.
Bottom line is that I think in the end, Paizo gains more overall from having these community sites than it loses.
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Quick correction on what d20pfsrd said regarding the Archives. While I definitely mark all Pathfinder Society legal items, I by no means limit the site to those. I include *every* mechanic I can find from the Pathfinder, Chronicles, and Companions lines. :)
I'll post a more detailed response about the idea of sites like mine a bit later on.
Ok Karui, I apologize. I had thought the idea of your site was to only have PFS legal content.
So then the difference between your site and d20pfsrd.com is that we include Paizo AND non-Paizo content and you ONLY include Paizo content?
Just trying to understand what your goal is :)
Basically. I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll outline it here too:
1. Have a simple site with various areas for anything 'mechanical' in the Pathfinder RPG. Sections include Feats, Spells, Traits, Gear, and soon will have Prestige Classes and Additional Rules.
2. Add anything that is both A. Paizo (first-party) created and B. in the Pathfinder, Chronicles, or Companion line (and possibly the RPG line later on).
3. Convert anything from a 3.5 Paizo product up to the new rules, making the changes as minimal as possible.
4. Mark anything that is legal for the Pathfinder Society.
As of right now, my site has been updated with every mechanical nugget I can find from the above listed material for the sections I have right now. Only the Prestige Classes and Misc. bits are left, those are being worked on at the moment.
Edit: As for being clear what is used under the OGL, like SGG mentioned above, I have a section for that as well. :D
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You're correct that people who use OGL material must state what is and isn't open. I also think we at Super Genius Games do a pretty good job of outlining what is and isn't open. Just look on the credits page and you'll see what we've declared Product Identity and what's Open. :D
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
I looked all over for a credits page on the site but either I'm blind (which is likely) or you meant the credits page WITHIN a book etc.
I was also referring to declaring on a website what is and isn't open. It seems to be far more common for people to post content on their website and then to neglect to include an OGL statement anywhere on their site or declare what is/isn't open content. If your site doesn't generally post content on the site, then I guess that would explain me not being able to find it :)
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Basically. I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll outline it here too:
1. Have a simple site with various areas for anything 'mechanical' in the Pathfinder RPG. Sections include Feats, Spells, Traits, Gear, and soon will have Prestige Classes and Additional Rules.
2. Add anything that is both A. Paizo (first-party) created and B. in the Pathfinder, Chronicles, or Companion line (and possibly the RPG line later on).
3. Convert anything from a 3.5 Paizo product up to the new rules, making the changes as minimal as possible.
4. Mark anything that is legal for the Pathfinder Society.As of right now, my site has been updated with every mechanical nugget I can find from the above listed material for the sections I have right now. Only the Prestige Classes and Misc. bits are left, those are being worked on at the moment.
Ok, so then we have basically the same goals, except you ONLY include content created by Paizo, but d20pfsrd.com includes that AND community content or content from 3rd party publishers (such as Necromancer Games Tome of Horrors etc).
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Right. I know a lot of DMs (myself included) that prefer using 1st-party content over 3rd-party content, and having a place where a DM can say 'anything on that site is good, go wild' is very handy.
That, and I found my players were hardly using anything from the splat-books despite the fact that I have all of them. Now, with the site, it's easy for them to make their characters at home using mechanics that are from books they might not have access to. :)
Anyhow, drifting away from the main topic.
My thoughts on the whole issue are simple. I think, if anything, these sites will help. There are a few basic types of people that might use these sites (I'll reference mine since I haven't looked at a number of the other fan-sites):
1. DM/GMs - The people that run games are, more often than not, the ones that subscribe to everything. They love reading the fluff, they like the maps, the adventure paths, the plots, everything. In that case, my site is only good as a secondary reference to them. It might help them pop out an NPC quickly for an adventure, or double check on a player's feats without having to grab the book, but I think in the end they're still going to go after the books themselves just to have everything that isn't mechanical (fluff, pretty pictures, etc.).
2. Players - I've been running weekly games pretty constantly over the years, and have had a number of players as a result. Generally, players don't buy a lot of the splat-books. They might grab a few here and there if it's interesting for their concepts, but it's no surprise to have players come for a game with just the core book and their characters. In that case, my website won't really change anything. They might have access to a lot more mechanics, but they're still going to be as likely to go buy the books that they're interested in for concepts. The fluff is in there, the art, and other things. If anything, the mechanics on my page might influence them to grab a book they hadn't otherwise thought of, now that they see it has some interesting nuggets they want to read more about.
3. People new to Pathfinder - I think this will be similar to the Players above. It is a place for them to get a 'preview' of certain books, if you will, and encourage them to go buy the physical product.
4. Society Players - While my site seems like everything a Society guy could need, there is one thing to keep in mind. Society players *must* have a physical copy of the splat-book to use anything from it, or a page printed from said book. My site only serves as a reference to these players.
I'm sure there are other types. Overall, my opinion is that sites like these can only serve to help the game, and will not hinder it. People who want the books will still get them, people who didn't plan on buying them probably still won't. Sites like mine will serve as a reference to help those who play the game have quick access to a mechanic they might otherwise have to spend time hunting through books to find.
I looked all over for a credits page on the site but either I'm blind (which is likely) or you meant the credits page WITHIN a book etc.
I was also referring to declaring on a website what is and isn't open. It seems to be far more common for people to post content on their website and then to neglect to include an OGL statement anywhere on their site or declare what is/isn't open content. If your site doesn't generally post content on the site, then I guess that would explain me not being able to find it :)
Yeah, we haven't put anything up on the site that would need an OGL statement so everything is just in the books themselves. We're big believers in the OGL here at SGG Central and are more than happy to keep things Open. Our basic philosophy is that our books are almost 99% Open. We usually just keep trade dress, specific location names and stuff like that PI.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
Right. I know a lot of DMs (myself included) that prefer using 1st-party content over 3rd-party content...
I don't want to threadjack but what would it take to change your mind on this? Want some free product to test drive?
Honestly this is something I don't 100% understand. Quality is quality, no matter where it comes from.
And at one time Paizo was a 3pp. :D
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
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Right. I know a lot of DMs (myself included) that prefer using 1st-party content over 3rd-party content...I don't want to threadjack but what would it take to change your mind on this? Want some free product to test drive?
Honestly this is something I don't 100% understand. Quality is quality, no matter where it comes from.
And at one time Paizo was a 3pp. :D
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
I'd be happy to go over it with you in email sometime, I don't want to threadjack too much here. :) The short version is that I know Paizo, I've read enough of their material that I'm comfortable saying that anything they put out is good to go. With other companies, I often don't know their track record, I don't have a lot of their products, and would need to go through everything to feel good about allowing it.
That, and Paizo takes all my moneys.
I'd be happy to go over it with you in email sometime, I don't want to threadjack too much here. :) The short version is that I know Paizo, I've read enough of their material that I'm comfortable saying that anything they put out is good to go. With other companies, I often don't know their track record, I don't have a lot of their products, and would need to go through everything to feel good about allowing it.
I hear ya. Email me at hyrum@otherworlds.cx and let's see if we can change your mind. Our products are written by Paizo contributors and former WotC employees after all. :D
That, and Paizo takes all my moneys.
Not much I can do about this, but there's a reason our products are usually $2.99 or lower....
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
Well veector, I commend you for attempting to discuss this.
I certainly respect your concern for the well being (for lack of a better phrase) of Paizo with the existence of your site, and others like it.
I don't think you have a whole lot to worry about, as long as you stick to the agreements made with Paizo. And by that, I mean mostly the OGL declarations.
Some studies (I don't have any links for you, sorry) suggest that the old idea of keeping all IP in clenched fists doesn't work.
While some groups argue otherwise, there have been a couple of studies that suggest pirated material actually helps publishers to make more sales. (The movie X-Men Origins: Wolverine suggests this considering how much money it made opening weekend despite well documented piracy of a work print.)
I'm not trying to say everyone should give away everything. But if ideas like Open Hardware and Open Software are sustainable business models, Open Content for RPG publishers shouldn't be an issue.
All of that is a long winded way of saying "if Paizo likes it, I love it."
Well I know several people in the groups I run in simply won't buy most of what Paizo has right now due to monetary reasons. They simply can't afford to spend a lot of money for a lack of crunch. Overall we play in our own campaign worlds so while the fluff is nice, it's simply not worth what paizo wants for it.
There is a large clamoring for Paizo to do some compendiums however much like the site that Karui Kage has made and his site is very popular both in my physical area and in the areas I frequent on the internet for it's ability to give access to the crunch people want.
Now it's not that the fluff isn't good or that it is unenjoyable, it's simply that we don't have the resources to buy up 12+ books a year then flip through seven of them simply to put together the string of feats, equipment, traits and such they want/need for their character concept.
So while he does offer the fluff they want, it's not something they were going to buy in the first place. The adventurer's armory and APG are selling (or will) around here even though the Archives have everything there simply because we do like to flip through a book or two when possible. It's also more convenient for us due to lack of things like netbooks to carry around the PDFs, and general lack of desire to stare at a screen to read the pdf's themselves (especially when the books look so much better).
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One of the benefits with having a compendium is the ability to immediately incorporate errata. The Adventurer's Armory is one product that had some errors in the various tables, and Sean was gracious enough to correct the errors in the Armory's thread. I've been able to since add those changes to my own database, which is immensely helpful in quickly finding the changes.
One thing I plan on doing is adding a small superscript symbol on exactly *which* ones were changed from the book as a result of errata, maybe a little E or something.
Even still, I do love having the complete product. There's something to say about having art and fluff to go with all the crunch.
I think paizo has discovered with their customer base that many people like their print books. I don't see any of those websites taking away sales as long as that is true.
How does a site like the Archives of Nethys encourage me to buy any published material from Paizo which includes the same rules? In addition, how does the Pathfinder Wiki encourage me to buy any additional sourcebooks if I can basically gain much of the same information from the wiki.
I've just really been conflicted lately as to whether the ability to publish something on the web for free actually helps or hinders the sales of Paizo's products.
I could write volumes on this, but I'll try my hardest to keep it short.
PathfinderWiki has maintained a stance that we are not a replacement for Paizo's official material since day one. As long as I am involved in the site, I will fight to keep this as one of our primary tenets. And despite having over 3,200 articles dedicated entirely to Paizo's intellectual property, I don't think we've ever come close to being such.
The wiki does several things to help increase sales of Pathfinder material. First we provide a comprehensive, hyperlinked guide to world canon. Many people find fantasy settings extremely intimidating, and an easy-to-use reference of all official sources helps potential customers ease their way into the setting without spending a dime. This makes world detail accessible to new PFS players who may just play it as a pickup game at a convention, readers of one of the forthcoming novels who may have no interest in or conception of the rules or game elements of the setting, or RPG Superstar contestants hoping to break into the industry.
Regardless of what brings someone to the wiki, or what they're looking for there, the project in no way replaces Paizo's books. While I can find out lots of details about the places, events, and characters in any of the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, I still have to buy the books to run them. As great as it is to click from hyperlink to hyperlink from one article on Katapesh to another, none of those articles reads as well as—or provides a single cohesive overview of all the information contained in—the official sources (including, in this case, several pages of the Campaign Setting, a 64-page Chronicle, a 32-page Companion, and six 96-page AP volumes). And we never will. There's simply too much information out there and too much coming out every week for a team of volunteers working in their free time to get it on the site. So if you want everything, you have to buy the books.
Every article on the wiki is fully referenced to direct users to the source material from which its content comes, so someone may read a full article on bugbears on the wiki and get an overview of the race and their place in Golarion, but if they want more, they have to buy the books. And we give them a link at the bottom of the page to the wiki's product page as well as the ISBN number for that book for them to order at a local or online store of their choice. All product pages link to the official website of the publisher, which in the case of Paizo, is also a web store. I know dozens of people who use the wiki as an index, searching for a topic so that they know what books and what pages to look at more closely for the official word. I do this as a contributor, in fact, since I know as well as anyone that people can make mistakes on the wiki, so I need the original books to check facts before I submit something to Paizo for publication.
When you factor in that the wiki can not (and does not) include artwork for which we don't have rights, it really limits how useful a lot of pages can be. We can't chop up or edit Paizo's maps, or even include most of them. We can't add images of monsters or NPCs unless someone in the fan realm makes the art or Paizo releases that art to us. So if someone wants a picture of the BBEG at the end of their adventure, they almost always need to go to the official source for it.
We also have a fairly strict no crunch policy, meaning you can include all the flavor you want from a canon source, but leave game stats out of it (except in a few cases generally involving how to categorize articles). This means that someone who wanted to get a spell from Gods & Magic for free to use in their Golarion campaign (while maintaining flavor elements as well) would need to go to two websites at least to get all that info: the wiki and one of the crunch compendiums like Archives of Nethys or d20pfsrd. To do this for every monster, PrC, spell, or magic item is something I'm willing to bet most uses won't do.
Additionally, it's 20x easier at the game table to grab a book or sift through a pdf or two for details on something than it is to hope you have internet access and do everything online. I play three Pathfinder games a week, and only one of them takes place somewhere with wireless internet, if the neighbor's signal is strong enough at that time. If I didn't know the pdfs of everything on my computer or the books all on the shelf (at one of the locations, at least) I couldn't count on the wiki or another online resource for my game.
Wikis have been around for quite a while now in the form of the ubiquitous Wikipedia but fan wikis are something newer. I can understand why a publisher might feel that someone wikifying their content is risky, but I think the resource (and free labor to maintain one) is worth the risk in 99.99% of cases. It's not without reason that publishers, film distributors, game designers, and television networks provide official content to the hundreds of wikis on Wikia and around the web; they know that building a community wherein fans can be fans and do their online marketing for them can do nothing but help their bottom line.
So much for keeping it short :-?
I'm happy to discuss any of these points in more detail, though, if anyone feels that I'm off base. I think this is an important discussion to have in any case and am glad you brought it up. I'm all for transparency and open dialogue.
I can certainly agree that the more people talk about Widgets, the more people are likely to buy Widgets. In that sense, I think the 3rd party web sites are a great help to the community.
What I'm struggling to understand is... if I were a gamer with roughly $30/month to spend on gaming material, why should I buy a splat book if that content is available for free on a web site.
I guess I'd have to be pretty committed to a company to purchase the print version of content. Unless I'm a DM/GM, I might be more inclined to spend my money on the PDF versions of content, which gets me the best of what I want.
I do think that overall, and in no small part because of the OGL and the huge boon to independent publishing that is the Internet, the price of content is approaching 0.
I don't want quality like Paizo or Super Genius to go away, and I also realize that there are a lot more things people may need to spend money on nowadays. The price we pay for high-speed Internet access alone saps a good chunk of disposable so, as many people do, they're more interested in content the way Super Genius is publishing: pay for specific articles much the way paying for specific songs has taken over the market for full albums on iTunes.
EDIT: I also wanted to mention one other thing. It has been this year that I've decided to go paperless with my gaming products. Anything I already have in print I'm keeping, but I'm not interested in having more dead tree products pile up around me in the years to come.
Here's to a long love affair with electronic files!
BTW, Hyrum, I think you guys are awesome and I was a $250 contributor to the P20 Modern project. <sniff>
I'll jump in with my perspective. While I don't have a site, I do have my Pathfinder Character Excelerator, which aims to incorporate absolutely every OGC item I can find for Pathfinder. I decided very early on that I wanted to include 3PP folks in this, both to have a broader set of "toys" to work with and to promote their products. I often have folks offering to pay or donate for the work I do on my sheet, and I'll copy my last reply...
And thank you for the support! I actually don't take any payment, both because I enjoy giving back to the community and because the Paizo Community Use Policy (which is what let's me use Golarion proper names and such in the sheet) prohibits accepting payment for the work.
Now, with that said there is actually one way anyone can support the sheet--I very much believe in the Open Game License (OGL) and Open Game Content (OGC). It's what allows me to include the fine material from publishers like 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming, Alluria Publishing, Otherworldy Creations/Super Genius Games, and Rite Publishing. I mention all of these specifically because they have in the past provided me with content for the sheet free-of-charge. On my last "hey I've got a little extra money" break I managed to purchase a few more PDFs that will soon be gracing the sheet, things like the Tome of Secrets from Adamant, plus almost everything the above publishers had available at the time. Of course, now they've published more stuff and I'm tapped on the extra RPG budget (you reminded me to update my Wish List with the stuff I don't have yet from these guys).
So...short story long I would encourage anyone that likes this work to go to support 3rd Party Publishers by purchasing their products--that's the best way to keep the OGL alive and kicking. Send your favorite publishers a note and tell them you think they've done a fine job. If you want to mention my work in the process, and if they are interested in contributing to the effort I have a thread ( Open Call To 3rd Party Publishers - I'll Support Your PRPG OGC) where they can jump in and ask questions or let me know their thoughts.
Thanks again!
Obviously, Open Gaming is a big deal to me. I believe if "done right" it can produce the best games possible, while also proving profitable for the publishers. To that end, I am focused on (1) promoting Open Gaming and the publishers that actively support it, both at our Birmingham Area Meet-Up and online, (2) educating people on the OGL, OGC, and how it should be properly used, and (3) encouraging people to move beyond just snagging the mechanics and actually buying the product (if someone wants to use an OGC option in my games, I make sure they've bought a copy)--if people want more good stuff, those companies need money! OGC can be a great marketing tool for companies as well, showing off their technical skill and thus possibly gaining new customers. I truly believe WotC shot themselves in the foot with their handling of Open Gaming--I'm not talking 4e here, but rather all the way back to their earliest closed products. Had they moved forward with OGC, we possibly wouldn't have had such a glut of low-quality 3PP material, as everyone could have more readily utilized their mechanics. But, having an MBA and business background myself I understand the senior management aneurysm that occurs when they hear the company is "giving away" their products. I am hoping that Paizo can lead the way into the future for open gaming, carrying along many fine companies that rise to the opportunity and realize that getting more people into the game is ultimately good for everyone.
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Chief Technical Officer
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However, I would really like to hear a Paizo employee's opinion on the subject.
Well, we wouldn't make as much open as we do if we didn't think that it was ultimately good for us. But we don't have hard data that proves we're right, and frankly, I'm not sure that it's possible to prove it definitively either way. You tell us!
Every one of my players started playing Pathfinder by referencing the PRD and d20pfsrd.com.
Every one of my players now owns a physical Core Rulebook that they paid for.
The confusion people get into is "Where is the value?" Most gamers I know use a bunch of houserules anyway, so where is the value in selling a roleplaying game reference? Is it the rules themselves, or the medium of transmission? I strongly believe it is the latter.
If the PRD were for paying customers only, none of my friends would have given Paizo one cent. Or they would have pirated the rules (not with my consent) in order to play.
It's the same way in the music business — if you don't even try to lock down the easily pirated things, and instead focus on selling things of concrete value, you're bound to come out okay. Value is usually tangible.
What I'm struggling to understand is... if I were a gamer with roughly $30/month to spend on gaming material, why should I buy a splat book if that content is available for free on a web site.
Because not everyone plays a digital game, and it's cheaper and easier to buy a book to take to a game than print it yourself from an online resource or lug your laptop around and hope you get signal during the game. Having access to the material online first means you can spend your $30 a month on something you already know is good. In Paizo's case, this means someone can play Pathfinder for free, realize its quality, and then spend their $30 where they believe they'll get the most value. With other systems without free online resources, you have to pay first and hope you chose wisely. There's a reason car dealers don't charge you to take a test drive; they believe that the ride will convince you and that the thousands you'll pay for the car will cover the times people drove them without buying.
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A few thoughts on the subject...
Since Paizo itself has a website with the PRD, ALL of the rules and ALL of the monsters, other sites that duplicate it are doing nothing more than Paizo itself is already doing.
Now, for my own part, I prefer having PDFs over books. Makes access to my gaming library easier. I am cutting back to few books, and will sometime soon be collecting more PDFs (need more money or wife will kill me if I buy everything I want).
I use d20pfsrd.com and Nethys' site A LOT. I only rarely use Paizo's PRD rarely. Why? On Nethys' site I can quickly and easily find official Paizo content. It is sort of an index, if you will. With rules and content being spread out over many books, there is almost no way I could ever hope to remember where everything is.
Then I use d20pfsrd.com because Paizo doesn't have EVERYTHING I want. There I can find monsters, feats, spells, whatever, that have been updated and converted to the Pathfinder rules (HOWEVER since much is fan created I have to check the numbers every time, as I nearly always find some error-not that it makes any REAL difference to me). It also lets me find out where content appeared originally and I can refer to it if I have it if I need to.
I rarely use Paizo's PRD because I just do not like its formatting and finding what I want is often difficult. I refer to it only when I want to be sure of the way something is written on one of the other sites. The PRD is the "OFFICIAL" web content so it is the final word.
Does any of this prevent me from buying Paizo products? Not one bit. Adventures are not reproduced, and while the Wiki presents a lot of the content on Golarion, it just is not anywhere near the same as reading what Paizo has actually written (and the Wiki is often horribly incomplete). What keeps me from buying Paizo products is a lack of enough money. If I could I would buy a copy of every single thing they make. Even with the other websites, nothing compares to checking out Paizo PDFs (or books).
BTW Your Pathfinder database has a LOT more on it than last time I looked. I'll be dropping by to check it out. :)
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Right. I know a lot of DMs (myself included) that prefer using 1st-party content over 3rd-party content...I don't want to threadjack but what would it take to change your mind on this? Want some free product to test drive?
Honestly this is something I don't 100% understand. Quality is quality, no matter where it comes from.
And at one time Paizo was a 3pp. :D
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
I would say start a new thread about it, cause I think it would be a interesting topic. Plus i think consumers and 3pp companies both might learn something from such a thread.
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I have a pool of about 25 players, most of which had never played a table-top game in their life.
d20pfsrd.com and the Golarion wiki have been invaluable in drawing them into the hobby. As the game goes on I'll encourage people to buy products that they like, but it's good that poor students have the option to use these awesome online resources.
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I will say this about the OP. I think the sites do more good than harm. I mean for me to buy from a company I like to take a look at their content first. If it is real cheap or about something i really like i will sometimes just buy it, with no more than the blurb. Sometimes I have been burned that way and sometimes I find a new company I trust.
I think the sites mentioned do that for all the paizo books, especially the ones that link to the book the information comes from at the bottom of their page. It gives people a way to freely check something out and then if they like it, most people I think will go buy it when they can afford it.
A example for me, I was very curious about Cthulhutech but no way I was going to plunk down 50 bucks for a book, unless i was positive I would love it. So i found a PDF to check out, spent some time reading it, really liked it and then bought the book later.
Two points:
1 - So long as these web sites are not allowed to include non-game mechanic info, the books will be needed and will sell, so I see nothing wrong with any of these legit sites.
2 - These sites will not replace the actual books or pdfs because there will be times where you do not have access to a computer and/or internet and that is when you will want your physical or digital copies of the books.
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when I'm trying to lure in a new pathfinder player, I always send them to the online sites - I don't expect them to buy the book before they try the system and see if it's for them. So far, everyone I've sent to the site has bought a core rulebook at least - even if it took them a couple of months to save up the cash for it. :)
What keeps me from buying Paizo products is a lack of enough money.
I understand this sentimentality completely. Lately, for myself, I've discovered that I'm able to get much more value out of purchasing discrete pieces of content that I can directly use instead of having to buy a whole book.
Just like on iTunes, I much prefer to buy the songs I like than to have to buy an album which has songs selected by the artist or studios which may or may not go together well.
For me, each piece of content can therefore be charged for at a higher rate.
Imagine Paizo publishing material like the Drive Thru RPG model:
Races - $0.99 / pdf
Classes - $4.99 / pdf
Feats - $0.99 /pdf with at least 10-20 feats
If you sum up all of what goes into the "Advanced Players' Guide" for example, it probably comes out to a higher price than the book price.
Like so much of the content out there, only a fraction might be relevant to the game I want to play at the moment.
With regards to using these sites for rules reference... since Paizo has made much of the game open content, it's easy to download an entire web site to your own PC and use it offline, no need for internet access. The same would be true of the Archives of Nethys.
My argument here is that, I think giving players a sample is great. Encouraging new players is great. However, as much as I trust the model that if people like your product enough, they will be honest enough to pay for it, what I disagree with is giving away all the content for free.
I do also realize that there are two sides to this: the player's perspective and the GM's perspective.
As for myself, as a GM, I love having a complete SRD to reference the rules from because I find a GM screen to be somewhat obstructive. However, what I love paying for is collections of content that I can use in my game, such as:
Generic NPC stats, Monster variations pre-built, maps, adventure outlines (not necessarily completely statted out), basically anything I can use to throw together a game or build my story.
I'm just questioning, what, if anything, do players really need to pay for?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Most of the sites mentioned are unable to be reached from work's firewalls for me.
That said, when I could access them they would be a big help when I was doing my ADD thing and working and reading at the same time. I'm still hoping to 'get the band back together' at some point when I'm feeling better, and Pathfinder will be my d20 of choice. At home it is also useful to be able to look up something quickly, or at least look up what book it's in. It's a suppliment, not a replacement to the books/PDFs.
As to the open content bit, most everything I've written is open content so far, if I were to put something with 'closed content' out there, I'd note it. :-)
As others have said, not all new players will buy the books before playing. A (hopefully) small percentage of players will never buy the books; relying instead on the GM or friend's copies.
The websites make it easier to perform some of the more mechanical tasks (like leveling up characters, buying equipment and identifying loot) easier. They have the advantage that the GM and players can (mostly) perform these tasks between games via email and web contact rather than face-to-face.
So far these sites have encouraged me to buy more books rather than reduce my purchasing. Items/descriptions/backgrounds covered by the websites leads me to buy the books associated with the useful/intriguing/needed information in the hopes of finding more of the same.
As an aside: one thing that will make me buy a book quicker than not is to see its full table of contents online, and a sample page or two. I love well-made indicies in third-party books (if only because it stops me from making my own for the book).
I'd be happy to go over it with you in email sometime, I don't want to threadjack too much here. :) The short version is that I know Paizo, I've read enough of their material that I'm comfortable saying that anything they put out is good to go. With other companies, I often don't know their track record, I don't have a lot of their products, and would need to go through everything to feel good about allowing it.I hear ya. Email me at hyrum@otherworlds.cx and let's see if we can change your mind. Our products are written by Paizo contributors and former WotC employees after all. :D
That, and Paizo takes all my moneys.Not much I can do about this, but there's a reason our products are usually $2.99 or lower....
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
You sent me a free sample of a book, and I have purchased 2 or 3 since then. You guys do make good stuff.
They help me when I don't have books on hand but I can't say I'd ever *not* buy a Paizo product I wanted just because the meat of it was online. Having the old D20/D20M SRDs available didn't stop me from buying a shelf-crushing load of Wizards' hardcovers either.
Guess I'm one of those throwbacks that likes books (even if they're just electronic things that only *look* like books).
Not everyone is the same, though. I played 3.5 with a guy that printed out the SRD rather than just buying a copy of the PHB. I've met others that have done the same with "downloaded" material. Go figure...seems like more work for less quality to me.
M
Well I know several people in the groups I run in simply won't buy most of what Paizo has right now due to monetary reasons. They simply can't afford to spend a lot of money for a lack of crunch. Overall we play in our own campaign worlds so while the fluff is nice, it's simply not worth what paizo wants for it.
Paizo's target market for the AP, Chronicles line and Modules line isn't "All Gamers", it's mainly the DMs. I'm sure they'd love EVERYONE to buy it, but those lines are niche products in a niche market.
So while he does offer the fluff they want, it's not something they were going to buy in the first place. The adventurer's armory and APG are selling (or will) around here even though the Archives have everything there simply because we do like to flip through a book or two when possible. It's also more convenient for us due to lack of things like netbooks to carry around the PDFs, and general lack of desire to stare at a screen to read the pdf's themselves (especially when the books look so much better).
Adventurer's Armory and APG aren't DM-centric products, which kind of bears out a point: Paizo knows that their product will sell to a particular market, but it won't sell to another market. By making a lot of that content open, the people who will buy it do, the people who wouldn't get an awesome benefit, and good will spreads all around.
It really is a pretty savvy strategy.
You sent me a free sample of a book, and I have purchased 2 or 3 since then. You guys do make good stuff.
Thanks wraithstrike!
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
1 - So long as these web sites are not allowed to include non-game mechanic info, the books will be needed and will sell, so I see nothing wrong with any of these legit sites
And yet the community use policy allows for sites such as PathfinderWiki to include all the non-game mechanic information as well. Do you think we should abandon this policy and switch over to replicate the existing OGL repositories and eliminate a canon reference for existing players or potential new customers?
I'm just questioning, what, if anything, do players really need to pay for?
The same thing they would need to pay for if the 3rd party sites didn't exist.
Nothing.
And that would be true if Paizo didn't have their PRD up either.
Only one person per group needs the rules. And that is assumed to be the resident GM.
Things could easily go back to when I started, one person has all the books and each other person pays then a couple of bucks to cover photocopy costs for the sections that they need.
Though I love all the third party websites, and the 3rd party product nothing beats the feel of Paizo's 15lb Core Rulebook of pure awsomeness. My playgroup feels the same as most of us have to drive 80 miles plus to the only good game store around.
We make that sacrifice because we are pure gaming nerds that love what we are seeing both from Paizo and the other 3rd party stuff. They even want me to save up for a scanner so I can better show off my art work and some of the stuff I throw at them...
Well I know several people in the groups I run in simply won't buy most of what Paizo has right now due to monetary reasons. They simply can't afford to spend a lot of money for a lack of crunch. Overall we play in our own campaign worlds so while the fluff is nice, it's simply not worth what paizo wants for it.Paizo's target market for the AP, Chronicles line and Modules line isn't "All Gamers", it's mainly the DMs. I'm sure they'd love EVERYONE to buy it, but those lines are niche products in a niche market.
So while he does offer the fluff they want, it's not something they were going to buy in the first place. The adventurer's armory and APG are selling (or will) around here even though the Archives have everything there simply because we do like to flip through a book or two when possible. It's also more convenient for us due to lack of things like netbooks to carry around the PDFs, and general lack of desire to stare at a screen to read the pdf's themselves (especially when the books look so much better).Adventurer's Armory and APG aren't DM-centric products, which kind of bears out a point: Paizo knows that their product will sell to a particular market, but it won't sell to another market. By making a lot of that content open, the people who will buy it do, the people who wouldn't get an awesome benefit, and good will spreads all around.
It really is a pretty savvy strategy.
You are not alone, my book shelf has a ton of old ed1,2,3 tsr and Pathfinder, plus all my other game systems, now my hard drive is also loaded with gaming stuff including a Table Top rpg of my own design, as well as all the notes on my fantasy world.
My (completely unqualified) opinion: It works the way it is. For me, it has never been an issue of not buying a book in favor of using PFSRD (or PFwiki, or anything else, for that matter). They just serve completely different purposes. When I'm at my computer and want to look something up really quick? PFSRD. When one of my players surprises me with an obscure reference to PF canon that his character is built on, I look it up at the wiki. However, when I'm running a game (or playing in one), I would never dream of leaving my trusty books at home.
Fan sites, in that regard, fulfill a 'support' role: they provide additional, enhanced 'functionality', if you will, to the game books. Paizo could very well do the same thing, but they don't want to / won't because of the limited amount of enslaved work monkeys they received on the last shipment (or something). Imagine all the fan sites didn't exist. Now someone wants to try out Pathfinder. What is he or she going to prefer: a game where all the rulebooks are properly indexed somewhere, or a game without that option? The fans take a load of work off Paizo's shoulders. This, in my opinion, is why fan sites are (and will ever be) beneficial to Paizo, as long as the fans play by the rules.
In that vein: rock on, Paizo, and rock on, PFSRD/PFwiki :).
Brian:
I understand that and agree with it. Unfortunately as good as it is about 60% of paizo's material isn't targeted to me. I'm ok with that because the other 40% is just so good, and about 20% of what isn't targeted to me (as a DM and player) works for the other DMs in my groups and sells to them (which of course is absolutely great to me) and I see in around about way through their use of it.
Uh...
I don't really see anyone weighing in on the other side of this.
In fact, this might be the least contentious thread I've ever seen.
Why did the OP think it was a powderkeg?
How does a site like the Archives of Nethys encourage me to buy any published material from Paizo which includes the same rules?
My guess is that the nuts and bolts of the rules are meant to be cheap or free, and then Paizo can make money selling adventure paths and setting books.
I like the fact that d20pfsrd and Nethys's Archive are out there as well as the official PRD site; a little healthy competition between those different sources should encourage them all to put out a high-quality product.