There's been some discussion on whether or not a mystic theurge is "viable" during play. The concern is mostly voiced regarding levels 5-9, and especially 5-7. So, as opposed to general statements, I'm inviting the rest of the community to discuss specific cases and circumstances.
Some ground rules:
This is NOT a comparison between the mystic theurge and a single classed cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard. If your main complaint is that the mystic theurge isn't as "powerful" as a single classed caster in that class's strength, then you're missing the point behind the concept of the mystic theurge, which is versatility.
The discussion is on the mystic theurge using the official Pathfinder RPG rules, 15 Point Buy, as documented in the Core Rulebook and associated resources (download page). If you deviate from the official rules (for example, restrict availability/crafting of magic items, copying spells, and/or change the wealth by level guidelines, use 3.5 or other rule variants, etc.), please specify exactly how you deviate and what effect that deviation has on characters. Note that I consider the biggest downfall to the mystic theurge (as with any multiclassed caster) the hit in caster level, so I use traits and always choose Magical Knack ("... Pick a class when you gain this trait--your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.")
This is not a CharOps discussion, so don't bash a particular "build" simply because it's not as "efficient/powerful" as possible. The main focus is a character that can contribute in most situations and shine in at least a few (i.e, "viable"), not simply maximizing effectiveness in a single activity. In particular, the characters I'm including to start the discussion are developed from my character concepts and take into account progression from 1st level, as well as preparing for future progression based on the concept.
Half-Elf Conjurer 3/Druid 3
10 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int (14 +2 race), 15 Wis (14 +1 advancement), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 to any one ability score (Int); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Adaptability (Skill Focus as bonus feat); Elf Blood; Immune to magical sleep effects, +2 saves vs. Enchantment; +2 Perception checks; Multi-talented (Favored Classes- Druid, Wizard)
Class Features: Arcane Bond (Staff), Arcane School- Conjuration (Opposition- Illusion, Necromancy; Summoner's Charm (+1 round), Acid Dart (1d6+1, 30 ft) 6x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll; Nature Bond (Plant Domain- Wooden Fist (+1 damage) 5 rounds/day), Nature Sense (+2 Knowledge (Nature), Survival checks), Orisons, Wild Empathy (+3), Woodland Stride, Trackless Step
Skills: Heal 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+12), Knowledge (Nature) 6 (+14), Knowledge (Planes) 3 (+9), Linguistics 3 (+9; Aquan, Auran, Common, Draconic, Druidic, Elven, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran), Perception 6 (+11), Spellcraft 6 (+12), Survival 3 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other trait
Feats: Augment Summoning, Craft Wand, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Survival), Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Wizard Spells (CL 5); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Illusion, Necromancy; Enlarge Person, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Sleep, Summon Monster I; Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Summon Monster II, Web; 120 gp)
Druid Spells (CL 3); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Gear: masterwork scimitar (315 gp), +1/masterwork quarterstaff (arcane bond item; 2,000 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), wand of scorching ray (4,500 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of magic missile (CL 3; 2250 gp), 1,518 gp
Combat: AC 13 (touch 12, flat-footed 12)*, 35.5 avg hp, +3 melee or +4 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +8, Init +1, CMB +3, CMD 14
*- AC 18 (flat-footed 17) with barkskin and mage armor
Human Cleric (Asmodeus) 3/Enchanter 3
13 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 15 Int (14 + 1 advancement), 16 Wis (14 + 2 race), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Wis); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Bonus feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features: Aura (Evil, Law), Channel Negative Energy (2d6, DC 11) 3x/day, Domains (Fire- Fire Bolt (1d6+1, 30 ft ranged touch) 6x/day; Trickery- Class Skills (Bluff, Disguise, Stealth), Copycat (3 rounds) 6x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Inflict); Arcane Bond (mace), Arcane School- Enchantment (Opposition- Divination, Transmutation; Enchanting Smile (+2 enhancement to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Dazing Touch (3 HD) 5x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Bluff 3 (+8), Diplomacy 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 5 (+10), Knowledge (Planes) 1 (+6), Knowledge (Religion) 6 (+11), Perception 6 (+9), Spellcraft 6 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric), one other trait
Feats: Craft Wand, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Toughness
Cleric Spells (CL 5); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Wizard Spells (CL 3); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Divination, Transmutation; Charm Person, Chill Touch, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Sleep; Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Spectral Hand, Touch of Idiocy; 150 gp)
Gear: masterwork heavy crossbow (350 gp), +1 cold iron heavy mace (4,324 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of chill touch (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), scroll of spectral hand (150 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of scorching ray (4,500 gp), 1,154 gp
Combat: AC 12 (touch 11, flat-footed 12)*, 42.5 avg hp, +4 melee or +3 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +9, Init +0, CMB +4, CMD 14
*- AC 16 (flat-footed 16) with mage armor
Human Wizard 3/Cleric (Nethys) 3
8 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int (14 + 2 race), 15 Wis (14 + 1 advancement), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Int); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Bonus feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features: Arcane Bond (staff), Arcane School- Universalist (Hand of the Apprentice 6x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll; Channel Positive Energy (2d6, DC 11) 3x/day, Domains (Magic- Hand of the Acolyte 5x/day; Protection- +1 resistance on all saves, Resistant Touch 5x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Cure)
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+12), Knowledge (Planes) 3 (+9), Knowledge (Religion) 6 (+12), Linguistics 3* (+9), Perception 6 (+8), Spellcraft 6 (+14), Use Magic Device 6 (+8)
*- Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Ignan, Terran
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other trait
Feats: Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Magical Aptitude, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll
Wizard Spells (CL 5); 0- 4, 1st- 3, 2nd- 2
Spellbook (all 0-level; Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep; Acid Arrow, Resist Energy, Web; 75 gp)
Cleric Spells (CL 3); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Gear: masterwork light crossbow (335 gp), +1/masterwork quarterstaff (arcane bond item; 2,000 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), wand of acid arrow (4,500 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of magic missile (CL 3; 2250 gp), 1,543 gp
Combat: AC 14 (touch 13, flat-footed 12)*, 35.5 avg hp, +2 melee or +5 ranged, Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9, Init +2, CMB +2, CMD 14
*- AC 18 (flat-footed 16) with mage armor
The following character is incomplete (I'm working on several custom X-times per day items based on the concept, like a masterwork alchemical silver gauntlet with cure light wounds on command 3x/day or a bracelet with shield (CL 2) on command 2x/day), with the eventual goal (not really effective until 11th-12th level) of being a combat-focused mystic theurge. Obviously, Arcane Armor Training will be the next feat taken (7th), then probably Forge Ring (9th) and Arcane Armor Mastery (11th).
Dwarf Cleric (Torag) 3/Transmuter 3
14 Str (13 +1 enhancement), 10 Dex, 14 Con (12 +2 race), 15 Int (14 +1 advancement), 16 Wis (14 +2 race), 8 Cha (10 -2 race)
Racial Traits: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha; Medium Size; Speed 20 ft, not reduced by medium/heavy armor/load; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 AC vs. Giants; +2 Appraise checks for metal/stone items; +1 attack bonus vs. Orcs, Goblinoids; +2 saves vs. poison, spells, spell-like abilities; +4 CMD vs. bull rush, trip; Stonecunning; Proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers; "Dwarven" weapons considered martial
Class Features: Aura (Good, Law), Channel Positive Energy (2d6, DC 10) 2x/day, Domains (Artifice- Artificer's Touch (CL 3 mending or 1d6+1) 6x/day; Earth- Acid Dart (1d6+1, 30 ft) 6x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Cure); Arcane Bond (Ring), Arcane School- Transmutation (Opposition- Enchantment, Illusion; Physical Enhancement (+1 Str), Telekinetic Fist (1d4+1, 30 ft ranged touch) 5x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Appraise 3 (+8/+10), Craft (Armor) 3 (+8), Craft (Weapons) 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 2 (+7), Knowledge (Engineering) 2 (+7), Knowledge (Religion) 2 (+7), Perception 6 (+9), Spellcraft 6 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric), one other trait
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Unarmed Attack, Scribe Scroll
Cleric Spells (CL 5); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Wizard Spells (CL 3); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Enchantment, Illusion; Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Shield, True Strike; Acid Arrow, Cat's Grace, False Life, Glitterdust; 135 gp)
Gear: 15,865 gp worth
One thing that can really help a MT are swift spells. Swift spells effects are generally weak for their level, but for a MT, you have so many spells that having a few weak spells really isn't a problem. You real problem as a MT is that you have way more spell than you can cast.
The problem is that there are few swift spells outside of quicken spell in the core rules, and quicken spell isn't useful to a MT until around level 13 or so. BUT, if you allow in the spell compendium, you get several swift spell options.
Quick march is a good example. Give all allies within 20 feet +30 movement for 1 round as a swift action as a level 2 cleric spell. By itself it is ok, but with a MT, you could cast enlarge person on the party meat shield and quick march in the same turn, then take a 60 foot move.
Also, a MT can greatly benefit from spell research. Research a new spells that are swift actions to cast. For example, swift blessing, a level 1 cleric spell that gives you the benefits of bless for 1 round, but it a swift action to cast.
Ok so you want to look at level 6 since that is right in the middle of the MT 'dead zone' where you are really just half of 2 caster classes. A good start. Our objective here is to see where and how these kinds of characters can contribute right? How about we take a look at the characters you provided and see how they fair against level appropriate encounters (Mixes of CR 3-7 sounds good to me?).
And rather then a 1 to 1 comparison, since versatility is in question lets look at whole situations rather then just a slugfest. That sound good to you?
Also consider the alternate druid from the sourcebook.
Which sourcebook are you referring to?
What about a Sorcerer Oracle so you only need Charisma?
If they let you take the practiced Spell Caster feat from 3.5 take it.
Some ground rules:
The discussion is on the mystic theurge using the official Pathfinder RPG rules, 15 Point Buy, as documented in the Core Rulebook and associated resources (download page). If you deviate from the official rules, please specify exactly how you deviate and what effect that deviation has on characters.
If you DM allows Veriant rules from D20 then THIS fixes your caster problem. Levels 6 and 7 will still be hard being that you only have 2 level spells of divine or arcane but starting at level 8 (wiz3/clr3/MT2) I think the utility and versatility will make up for it.
|
In my weekly game, one player runs a MT (sorcerer/cleric) and although he felt he was often underpowered (compared to the rest of the party) when he reached 12th level, he no longer feels that way.
The main problem I saw with this character was the obvious lack of power at lower levels. The 8th level paladin had more healing at times than the 10th level MT. Of course, if it's power that the player wants, they won't take the MT. He is not a power class, he is a utilitarian. If you are a DM and one of your players is playing a MT, just make sure he has access to things like wands of curing and rods of metamagic. He'll do just fine. And if you are a player..... mention these to your GM.
Creative Director
|
In my opinion... the mystic theurge is a GREAT character if your party has no other spellcasters. The point of this class—to combine two very different spellcasters into one, is pretty much built for small parties that might otherwise not have both an arcane and a divine caster. In larger parties where there are both divine and arcane (and often more than one of each) caster, ANY multiclass spellcaster starts to be increasingly marginalized.
I do know, though, that mystic theurges make for great bad guys because of all the cool spell combinations you can get going. In particular, contingency + breath of life or things like that.
In my opinion... the mystic theurge is a GREAT character if your party has no other spellcasters. The point of this class—to combine two very different spellcasters into one, is pretty much built for small parties that might otherwise not have both an arcane and a divine caster. In larger parties where there are both divine and arcane (and often more than one of each) caster, ANY multiclass spellcaster starts to be increasingly marginalized.
I do know, though, that mystic theurges make for great bad guys because of all the cool spell combinations you can get going. In particular, contingency + breath of life or things like that.
Yes, but at that point, you are well past the sag in the power curve. The glaring problem with the mystic theurge is the power sag from level 5 to 9. At those levels, you have a ton of low level spells, but...
A. Your caster level is low(A level 6 player casting level 2 spells that last for 3 rounds)
B. All of your core spells are 1 standard action or longer. MT have a lot of spells, but no way to get those spells cast faster.
|
From my group's experience in 3.5, once our mystic theurge got past trying to use spells that allow saves or do direct damage (fireballs, etc.), she became an extremely diverse complement to the party, able to drop for healing with cleric levels and do an immense amount of "buffing" (rays work nicely for offense as well).
Pathfinder actually improves the prestige class, so I could only surmise that we'd have the same result under those rules.
We didn't get to higher (12+) levels where the class would really rock, but as long as the party didn't rely on the mystic theurge to "blast" enemies, things went well.
Practiced spell caster could help with some durations, but yeah, you still only cast so many spells.
Also, a MT can greatly benefit from spell research. Research a new spells that are swift actions to cast. For example, swift blessing, a level 1 cleric spell that gives you the benefits of bless for 1 round, but it a swift action to cast.
Is this a feat or are there rules on this? Im not familiar with Spell Research.
EDIT: Is there a site i can view or download the spell compendium?
Also, a MT can greatly benefit from spell research. Research a new spells that are swift actions to cast. For example, swift blessing, a level 1 cleric spell that gives you the benefits of bless for 1 round, but it a swift action to cast.Is this a feat or are there rules on this? Im not familiar with Spell Research.
EDIT: Is there a site i can view or download the spell compendium?
I was referring to the ability to research new spells under independent research section of adding new spells.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
New Divine Spells
Divine spellcasters gain new spells as follows.
Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, she learns all of the spells from that level automatically.
Independent Research: A divine spellcaster can also research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless she decides to share it with others.
There are rules for working with the DM to create completely new spells or to bring in spells from other sources. i reccomend that MTs work with the DM to create a few new and useful swift action low level spells.
I think it could be viable if and only if there is some mechanism in play that allows the player to pick up some of those benefits from the spellcasting classes....
Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
I would like to see the ability to continue to improve in
either
something divine such as channel energy
OR
something arcane such as bonus spells.....
A set of multiclassing feats that did this would be very nice.
Heart of rage - Must have at level 1 level in barbarian. You gain barbarian class abilities as if you were 1 level higher. You cannot gain abilities that are higher than your character level.
Think of a feat like that for every class.
|
Creative Director
|
One of the core assumptions in Pathifnder is that we want a single classed character to be the norm. We want them to be viable. And the way we handled that is by making single classed characters as attractive as possible from 1st level all the way up to 20th. Prestige classes, we hope, become more of a choice that a player might make because of flavor desires for his character, or because he wants to hyper-specialize in one aspect of his class, or because he just wants something different, but it should NEVER be a "I'll take levels of this prestige class so I can just be better at my class role than if I remained single classed." That's not part of our design philosophy.
This goes even more for multiclassing, in fact, and particularly for spellcasters. Basically, if you want the VASTLY increased versatility and options that multiclassing a spellcaster gets you, our philosophy is that you have to give something up for that significant increase in options.
A multiclassed spellcaster whose spells are equal to or even VERY CLOSE to equal to a single classed spellcaster's spells means that there's no point to being a singleclassed spellcaster. That's not something we want in the core rules.
Honestly... the best way to have your cake and eat it too by having both spellcasting classes at your disposal at full power so you don't "fall behind" the others in your group is to get permission from the GM to run two characters.
And the concern that "my multiclassed character is not as powerful as the other player's single classed character" is, frankly, the game working as it should. In theory, the single classed character should be complaining, "My single classed character isn't as versatile as that other player's multiclassed character" I guess.
|
Creative Director
|
And the concern that "my multiclassed character is not as powerful as the other player's single classed character" is, frankly, the game working as it should. In theory, the single classed character should be complaining, "My single classed character isn't as versatile as that other player's multiclassed character" I guess.I think the problem that people are seeing, and I don't know if it's a big one or not (I'm going to be doing a Wizard/Oracle over in a PbP so I'll find out first hand) is that in a fairly small band the power drop isn't just 'substantial' it's nearly incredible. No one likes "dead levels." And the complaint seems to be that the Mystic Theurge suffers from FOUR levels that are, in fact, pretty close to dead before coming into their own 'as they should be.' If true, that's not even remotely 'functioning as the game should' as you've put it.
So the question then becomes, how is that fixed without putting it over the top of the power curve later?
I'm not so sure it SHOULD be fixed, honestly, since the versatility the Mystic Theurge gains is SIGNIFICANT.
But if it really really really needs a fix, I would probably fill those dead levels with something like the ability to "specialize" in a spell each dead level, where you pick one spell and gain a +1 bonus to its caster level or save DC or something like that. A very minor bonus. And that's even probably too good.
Because I really think that the increased versatility is INCREDIBLY good.
ALSO: Gaining access to a new spell level is a good cure for a dead level. Unfortunately, you can't hard-code when a mystic theurge gains spell level access... since this happens when it happens, if it happens on a dead level that's good but if it doesn't... (shrug)
So the question then becomes, how is that fixed without putting it over the top of the power curve later?
The only real way to fix that problem is to create a 20 level class out of the Mystic Theurge. Ideally, it should be roughly the same as a standard Mystic Theurge at higher levels, but have a smoother power curve so that the class isn't weaker (or stronger) than other players at lower levels. There's no real way to get a smooth power progression out of a Mystic Theurge with the way the magic system works right now.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).
So the question then becomes, how is that fixed without putting it over the top of the power curve later?The only real way to fix that problem is to create a 20 level class out of the Mystic Theurge. Ideally, it should be roughly the same as a standard Mystic Theurge at higher levels, but have a smoother power curve so that the class isn't weaker (or stronger) than other players at lower levels. There's no real way to get a smooth power progression out of a Mystic Theurge with the way the magic system works right now.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).
I like this idea, and was actually thinking the same thing. Just out of curiousity what did a ranger/druid look like, I always thought the ranger was a druid hybrid.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).
I also try to do this, but sometimes the prestige class has something that 's hard to represent in a base class: prestige/flavor.
I made a rogue/cleric hybrid class, but the player wanted to be a shadowbane infiltrator. Instead of making a way-too-specific base class, I just let him do it the traditional way.
Base classes are suppose to be flexible. A rogue can be a ninja/scout/spy/assassin/etc. A fighter can be an archer/legionnaire/soldier/etc. Making a base class that can only be one thing is a bad design, IMO.
I like this idea, and was actually thinking the same thing. Just out of curiousity what did a ranger/druid look like, I always thought the ranger was a druid hybrid.So the question then becomes, how is that fixed without putting it over the top of the power curve later?The only real way to fix that problem is to create a 20 level class out of the Mystic Theurge. Ideally, it should be roughly the same as a standard Mystic Theurge at higher levels, but have a smoother power curve so that the class isn't weaker (or stronger) than other players at lower levels. There's no real way to get a smooth power progression out of a Mystic Theurge with the way the magic system works right now.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).
Well, don't have the exact stats on hand, but here's the general idea. I basically took the druid class, and weakened its spells per day so that it had a bard spell progression abd weakened its wildshape a bit. I also thinned out the class's other special abilities, I took away some of the ones that were above level 15, and then spread the remaining ones through the levels that were left. In return, the character gained ranger combat feats, favored terrains, and a few other random abilities (evasion, hide in plain sight). I also created a custom 20th level ability for him.
So basically, the end result was a character with medium bab, druid spells with a bard spell progression, ranger combat feats, a druid strength pet, weakened wildshape, and favored terrains. So far he hasn't been outshining any of the other players, so I think it has worked fairly well. Just so you know, I was customizing the class to go with what the player was looking for, so I don't know that I would use it as a 'general' ranger/druid hybrid class.
Of course, the problem is that there is no exact science to merging classes like that, you kind of just have to eyeball it. One trick is to cut 5 levels off of the top of either class to give yourself an idea of how many things the character should lose (sometimes he needs to lose more than that), another is to just create a list of 'abilities lost' and 'abilities gained', and to ask yourself if it seemes balanced when compared to the base classes.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).
This is really I think the best route. Single base classes that are designed to do a mix of classes are far easier to balance then a multiclassed character. And often they are more interesting because you have in theory at least a new set of abilities to try out.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).I also try to do this, but sometimes the prestige class has something that 's hard to represent in a base class: prestige/flavor.
I made a rogue/cleric hybrid class, but the player wanted to be a shadowbane infiltrator. Instead of making a way-too-specific base class, I just let him do it the traditional way.
Base classes are suppose to be flexible. A rogue can be a ninja/scout/spy/assassin/etc. A fighter can be an archer/legionnaire/soldier/etc. Making a base class that can only be one thing is a bad design, IMO.
I agree, it is usually best to just let the character work within the base classes or prestige classes. I just intervene when it looks like a player would have to really hurt his character to get the abilities that he wants.
Another thing I've been doing is making additional talents avalable to the rogue in my game so that he can gain some abilities from the 'umbral disciple' Incarnum class (it is simmilar to a shadowdancer). I figured the class's progression was a mix of sneak attack and special abilities like the rogue's anyway, so why make him take a separate class?
Other times, the player might be looking for something convoluted or just really specific. In that case just let him multiclass to his heart's content, lol.
I did a 20 level progression for the mystic theurge at the request of a friend of mine. For those interested it's in the spoiler:
HD: d6/ Poor Bab
Good Saves: Will
Skill Points: 2+ Int Mod
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Weapons
Armor Proficiencies: None
Spells per day:
level-0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8
[list type=decimal]
[/LIST]
Spells Per day: A Mystic Theurge gains spells as the chart shows. He gains these spells twice, once as divine spells, and once as arcane spells. These spells follow all the normal rules for spells of their kind (including arcane spell failure for arcane spells, and needing a divine focus for divine spells). He may not use slots from one spell list to fill the other (but see cross cast class feature), and the casting stat is based on his focus, as is his spell list (see focuses below).
Arcane Focus: At level one a Mystic Theurge must choose how he cast his arcane spells. If he chooses spontaneous casting his casting stat is his Charisma, and he gains an extra 2 arcane spell slots each (in addition to his normal spell slots) for each spell level as he gains the ability to cast arcane spells of that spell level. His spells known are gained just as a sorcerer's spells known would be when he reaches each level of spell.
If he chooses to prepare his spells his Intelligence is his casting stat, and he may choose to specialize just as a wizard can (with all the benefits and penalties there of). In both cases the character uses the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list for his arcane spells.
Divine Focus: A mystic theurge's divine casting stat is Wisdom. At first level he must choose if he will use the Cleric's or Druid's spell list, and this choice affects future class abilities. If he chooses the Cleric's spell list he gains the Channel Energy class feature (turn undead in 3.5) and may choose one domain. The Channel Energy class feature starts at 1d6, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels (2d6 at level 3, 3d6 at level 6, etc) (In 3.5 his turn undead ability uses his mystic theurge class level -2 for determining how many undead he affects). If he chooses the Druid's list he gains an animal companion at level 1, and wild shape at level 6. His wild shape ability increases as a druid's does but at every 3 levels instead of every other level (for pathfinder, in 3.5 just use his Mystic Theurge class level - 2 for determining his wild shape abilities).
Cross Casting: Starting at level 5 the Mystic Theurge may prepare spells from one of his spell lists in slots for his other type of magic. Doing so means the spell becomes a spell of the other type (if it was an arcane spell he can cast it as a divine spell, if it was a divine spell it is now an arcane spell). When doing this the spell takes up a slot one higher than it normally would take up. In the case of transfering a divine spell into a spontaneous arcane spell the mystic theurge must have the divine spell prepared for the day in order to cast it in the arcane spell slot.
Multiclassing Note: If mystic theurge takes a prestige class that advances his spell casting, he must choose one type of spell casting to advance. In no case does a prestige class advance both his divine and arcane spell casting unless it explicitly increases two spell casting types at the same time.
I know that this was assumed to use PFRPG source material only, but has anyone ever tried or consider doing the Mystic Theurge with a Wizard/Archivist combination. The Archivist, for those that don't know about it, is found in the Hero's of Horror WoTC book for 3.5.
My Monday Night DM isn't ready to use Pathfinder so we are still gaming using the 3.5 rules.
and I was working on a build using the Wizard/Archivist multiclass for MT.
Honestly, I discourage my players from multiclassing because I don't like how they seem to get penalized for it. I create new classes for them instead (I made a ranger/druid hybrid class for one of my players).I also try to do this, but sometimes the prestige class has something that 's hard to represent in a base class: prestige/flavor.
I made a rogue/cleric hybrid class, but the player wanted to be a shadowbane infiltrator. Instead of making a way-too-specific base class, I just let him do it the traditional way.
Base classes are suppose to be flexible. A rogue can be a ninja/scout/spy/assassin/etc. A fighter can be an archer/legionnaire/soldier/etc. Making a base class that can only be one thing is a bad design, IMO.
I agree that base classes should be flexible, but it is possible to mix abilities and still be flexible. Have a look at the super genius magus class. That class is very flexible, but it allows a character to do some (not all) of what the mystic theruge can, but its a single class. I think the prestige class that just mix 2 classes, arcane archer, eldritch knight, etc can be better served as base classes. Things that expand or specialize a specific existing base class (like the shadowbane infiltrator) i agree are better serverd as a prestige class. I think there is a distinction that should and can be drawn there.
|
|
I know that this was assumed to use PFRPG source material only, but has anyone ever tried or consider doing the Mystic Theurge with a Wizard/Archivist combination?
Ouch. Well, you'll certainly play to the MT strength of 'versatility'.
For spells known, both classes rely on a spellbook, so your only limit is the wealth level of the game, and the DM's tolerance toward the Magic Shop availability. If the DM tells you upfront that he's going to be running a low-treasure, 'realistic' campaign, this combo won't work as well as in the default setting.
Having said that, if there is another divine caster in the party (of a class which has free access to their whole list), you don't have to track down spells of that class list; you sit down with that PC, and cooperate in the crafting of a scroll (using the bonus feat you got as a Wizard 1), then next day, use that same scroll to 'research' the spell into your prayer book. Bingo.
Since the Archivist can cast any divine spell, you effectively advance in ability to cast every divine spell out there.
And you can offset one of the main drawbacks of the MT, that of delayed spell access, due to some spells having varying levels for different class lists. No-one's going to be complaining that you're a spell level behind, when you can use a 1st-level slot on Lesser Restoration, and at the same time free up the single-class cleric's slots for his fun stuff.
Between the pair of you, you can cure the whole party of that poison damage, and Bull Strength them, instead of it being either/or.
Practiced spell caster could help with some durations, but yeah, you still only cast so many spells.
Edit:
Practiced spell caster helps a lot.
I played a Cleric/Paladin/Divine Agent in 3.5 and when I got Practiced spell caster everything fell into place. (That's right I'm one of those odd persons who actually played a Divine Agent and all 10 levels of it.)
Is the Mystic Theurge Viable? Yes I think so. I'm not sure If the OP think it's OK to use Practiced spell caster, but remember its not OGL so Paizo couldn't use it. I would allow it.
Playing a Pathfinder Mystic Theurge and picking Practiced spell caster you will get:
- easier Concentration checks!
- increased healing
- increased damage
- increased range
- increased duration
- easier to beat Spell Resistance
- spells that affects more people (Haste, Teleport, etc)
- protction spells get more powerful (Mirror Image, stoneskin, resiste energy, protection from energy, etc)
- more powerful buffs (Divine Power, Divine favour, etc.)
- better caster level checks (Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, etc)
- Spells like Holy word becomes more powerful, since they are based on Caster level vs. HD.
- Etc, etc, etc.
...and yes. You have to pick Practiced spell caster twice, unless you can talk your DM/GM into bending the rules.
Edit 2:
The feat would indeed make Mystic Theurge Viable especially combined with Magical Knack.
The class should focus on spells not melee, probably utilty spells or spells with no saves (Ice storm, Enervation, etc). But if you want to do damage I would pick Practiced spell caster (the arcane class) and Magical Knack (the other class).
I would also use rods and wands. Rods are great.
Lesser Empower Metamagic rod is only 9 000 gp.
That and Scorching Ray or MM is nice. Silent Metamagic Rod is also nice. At higher levels you will want Quicken Rod.
Spells: Glitterdust is a must.
There some stuff in this thread that might be interesting.
|
Something that James seems to keep missing in these posts isn´t so much about the power level, it´s the fact that there is a rather large chunk of levels where the character build is just no fun to play because your not playing what you want. This is an issue with pretty much ALL the PrCs with the exception of the master specialist which lets you start on your idea after 3 levels. The funny thing is, for PrC like the master specialist, having them wait for 6 levels isn´t too bad...however for the MC PrC, like the eldritch knight or mystic theurge, they really should be able to PrC after 3 levels so they can start to enjoy their MC character. To make MCing as un-fun as possible to make people single class is a truly awful game design. You should be torn about the choice...as it stands, MC a caster was a fool´s game in 3.5 and it´s even more of one in PF.
Something that James seems to keep missing in these posts isn´t so much about the power level, it´s the fact that there is a rather large chunk of levels where the character build is just no fun to play because your not playing what you want. This is an issue with pretty much ALL the PrCs with the exception of the master specialist which lets you start on your idea after 3 levels. The funny thing is, for PrC like the master specialist, having them wait for 6 levels isn´t too bad...however for the MC PrC, like the eldritch knight or mystic theurge, they really should be able to PrC after 3 levels so they can start to enjoy their MC character. To make MCing as un-fun as possible to make people single class is a truly awful game design. You should be torn about the choice...as it stands, MC a caster was a fool´s game in 3.5 and it´s even more of one in PF.
The problem with that is power balance. If you could go into eldritch knight at level 3 (as is) it would be too powerful. The multiclass PrC's work on the 'pay to play' principle, that you need to give something up first. I dont think making existing PrCs have a lower level entry is a good idea, as it would make those characters signficantly more powerful.
I think a possible fix to the Mystic Theurge in order to make it viable to players would be to change the requirements from 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells to a CL 2 of an arcane spellcasting class and a CL 2 of a divine spellcasting class. At level five, you could be a wizard 2/cleric 2/mystic theurge 1, with access to 2nd level spells from both classes, and a slightly lower CL when using spells for both.
Anyways, I agree that the Mystic Theurge is an awesome villain class. You can put him up a few levels higher than normal and still have him be a level appropriate encounter. He'll have more hit points and less powerful spells, which means the encounter will take longer (short final battles are a big problem in my group).
I think a possible fix to the Mystic Theurge in order to make it viable to players would be to change the requirements from 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells to a CL 2 of an arcane spellcasting class and a CL 2 of a divine spellcasting class. At level five, you could be a wizard 2/cleric 2/mystic theurge 1, with access to 2nd level spells from both classes, and a slightly lower CL when using spells for both.
I'm not too fond of allowing the PC to get into the prestige class that early. Rather, I'd be willing to experiment with more imbalance between the two spellcaster classes. For example, rather than setting the requirements at roughly having 3 levels in each class, allow them to have the choice of being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells, or 3rd level in one and 1st level in the other. The character could closely balance his classes or be stronger in one/weaker in the other. They'd track a lot closer to the single class caster and the second casting ability would be significantly weaker.
Having seen a character multiclassing to become a mystic theurge in a game and seeing them struggle compared to their peers, it's a tough path to follow and frustrating for a few levels.
The true power of the MT is that they have enough spell slots to be able to memorize all those utility spells that every caster wishes they had available, but rarely want to memorize.
That and the ability to craft an amazing array of items.
I remember the days in 1st/2nd edition when folks would play a class because it was fun, not because it was "equal" in combat ability to another or had "dead" levels. Ah but those days have come and gone...
Really? Then why did I have a second edition campaign where I was the only human pure class character. Everyone else in the party was a half-elf multiclass character because multiclassing was way, way more powerful than pure classes in 2nd ed.
I myself have only gotten to play maybe 3 fun characters in the last 10 years, because everyone else is always doing the powerful classes. So there has to be some balance or we wouldnt be playing.
|
|
Getting off track of the original post, but my first experiences with the game were with people who didn't know an elf from a dwarf other than one was short and the other had pointy ears. Folks went with what sounded fun to play, and humans were played for flavor. Anyhow, my experience with the theurge is that they have a spell for just about anything, and it's a fun blend for the deeply religious caster.
Getting off track of the original post, but my first experiences with the game were with people who didn't know an elf from a dwarf other than one was short and the other had pointy ears. Folks went with what sounded fun to play, and humans were played for flavor. Anyhow, my experience with the theurge is that they have a spell for just about anything, and it's a fun blend for the deeply religious caster.
There is nothing wrong with going for a class that's not optimal if you like the flavor and concept. The mystic theurge is a really cool concept and it sounds really fun, which is why people complain about it. They like the idea behind it but not how it plays out.
A cleric 3/wizard 3 character who's trying to become a mystic theurge is effectively a slightly more powerful 3rd level character. It's hard to be an asset to your 6th level party when facing level appropriate encounters because you're pretty much half as powerful as you should be at that level.