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Perhaps I should have been more specific. I want a familiar with a climb speed. If it has one, it can indeed five-foot step when climbing. My favorite is the scarlet spider, however it is tiny, and alas less able to fit into pockets, but it can still enter adamantine boxes without issue.Uhmm.. you do know doing a climb check in a threatened area provokes an AoO and you can't do a 5 foot step mixed with a climb check.
Every time your familiar crawls in or out of that pocket would provoke from everyone threatening the tank.
There is nothing in the description of the Climb movement ability that overrides the standard AoO rule that using a skill/move in a threatened square provokes an AoO. Honestly the only thing having a climb speed grants is you get to keep your Dex bonus while climbing and you can move at half speed instead of quarter speed.
This is probably a topic moved over to a different thread since it is wildly deviating from the OP.
As for grappling Yes you can use your hair to grapple with. Any natural attack can used to perform a combat maneuver. Whether it's a secondary attack or not is irrelevant since it will be treated as a primary attack if it's the only attack used that round.
Why no? The only thing I can see is that he would take a -4 since he doesn't have two free hands. Grapple is just listed as a standard action. I don't see any other qualifiers referring to main or secondary natural attacks.Treat its strength score as = to you int.
EDIT: As to grapple I am inclined to say no, as it is a secondary natural attack and it is limited in its uses (cannot use weapons). I see it sort of like a wing buffet with benefits. Or maybe a secondary tentacle attack without grab.
EDIT EDIT: Yes, you add in Strength wherever appropriate
It's just an inclination. I would see it the same as an orc who has a bite attack, I just don't see him grappling with that :P
It's just an inclination. I would see it the same as an orc who has a bite attack, I just don't see him grappling with that :P
Looks like there are differing interpretations... but to me, 10' of hair has more ability to grapple than the 2-4" distance between upper and lower bite of the orc. Granted, I would *definately* give him the ability to grapple a ham sammich with that bite!
Thanks for the feedback, guys- hopefully there is an official ruling on this that could be made. If not, I guess it is up the GM running the session.
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It's just an inclination. I would see it the same as an orc who has a bite attack, I just don't see him grappling with that :PLooks like there are differing interpretations... but to me, 10' of hair has more ability to grapple than the 2-4" distance between upper and lower bite of the orc. Granted, I would *definately* give him the ability to grapple a ham sammich with that bite!
Thanks for the feedback, guys- hopefully there is an official ruling on this that could be made. If not, I guess it is up the GM running the session.
The real question is going to be if you grapple an opponent with your hair and keep them 10 feet away can they ever break the grapple?
(remember the hair cannot be attacked directly and a grapple check is defined as an attack action. Unless you are a master escape artist you will never get free of a witch who grabs you)
There is nothing in the description of the Climb movement ability that overrides the standard AoO rule that using a skill/move in a threatened square provokes an AoO. Honestly the only thing having a climb speed grants is you get to keep your Dex bonus while climbing and you can move at half speed instead of quarter speed.
Actually, climbing is not a separate movement ability, it is a check you make to use a move action to traverse a non-horizontal, non-upright surface. In fact, the only form of movement barred from a creature with a climb speed is the "Run" action, as per the pfsrd. I assume that without a climb speed, moving up a wall is akin to moving through difficult terrain. With a climb speed, it becomes second nature to climb (taking a 10).
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There is nothing in the description of the Climb movement ability that overrides the standard AoO rule that using a skill/move in a threatened square provokes an AoO. Honestly the only thing having a climb speed grants is you get to keep your Dex bonus while climbing and you can move at half speed instead of quarter speed.Actually, climbing is not a separate movement ability, it is a check you make to use a move action to traverse a non-horizontal, non-upright surface. In fact, the only form of movement barred from a creature with a climb speed is the "Run" action, as per the pfsrd. I assume that without a climb speed, moving up a wall is akin to moving through difficult terrain. With a climb speed, it becomes second nature to climb (taking a 10).
We're almost on the same page here but I see a few mechanical differences that need to be addressed.
First any time an entity decides to move via a climb requires them to make a skill check (climb). Having an actual climb movement type gives bonus to that climb check and allows them to move faster then those without a climb speed.
Now according to the rules for Attacks of Opportunity using a skill that requires an action will provoke. Since Climb is a skill check that is only performed while doing another action (move) it fits the criteria for provoking an AoO no matter how far the target intends to move (the AoO is resolved before the triggering event).
Now according to the rules for Attacks of Opportunity using a skill that requires an action will provoke. Since Climb is a skill check that is only performed while doing another action (move) it fits the criteria for provoking an AoO no matter how far the target intends to move (the AoO is resolved before the triggering event).
Ah, but a 5-foot step is listed as not an action. In fact, upon review of the text for 5-foot step, it explicitly states that you may not take a 5-foot step for a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. Here
Blatant discrimination. Why would people be OK with wizards but not witches?
It's just how they are...
Role: While many witches are recluses, living on the edge of civilization, some live within society, openly or in hiding. The blend of witches' spells makes them adept at filling a number of different roles, from seer to healer, and their hexes grant them a number of abilities that are useful in a fight. Some witches travel about, seeking greater knowledge and better understanding of the mysterious powers that guide them.
Post describing witch fluff
Couldn't have said it better myself
EDIT: Forgot to add that there is also the whole "witches can cook people for delicious food" as a class feature bit. But I am certain those commoners are just close-minded.
I would never send a familiar to deliver touch attacks. My witch's familiar would cost more to replace than the witch.
The real question is going to be if you grapple an opponent with your hair and keep them 10 feet away can they ever break the grapple?
(remember the hair cannot be attacked directly and a grapple check is defined as an attack action. Unless you are a master escape artist you will never get free of a witch who grabs you)
Now that seems to be a little "too powerful", even if you can back up the argument with a logic sequence that makes it seem sound. My guess is that the original wording in the rule book is to rule out someone attacking the hair separately from the witch who might be using it to do something- i.e. "called shot to the hair" (ye-gads that sounded odd).
If you are grappled, it seems fair to allow the target chances at escaping from the grapple, even if that wording could be used to justify an "inescapable grapple". An official ruling would help here... are there any other weapons/abilities that allow you to "grapple at a distance"? If so, their interpretation of the grapple rules may help.
WJ
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Now according to the rules for Attacks of Opportunity using a skill that requires an action will provoke. Since Climb is a skill check that is only performed while doing another action (move) it fits the criteria for provoking an AoO no matter how far the target intends to move (the AoO is resolved before the triggering event).Ah, but a 5-foot step is listed as not an action. In fact, upon review of the text for 5-foot step, it explicitly states that you may not take a 5-foot step for a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. Here
Your link doesn't actually go anywhere but I know what you are referring to. You're missing a point however, yes taking a 5 foot step BY ITSELF doesn't provoke but there is a caveat on that.
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
The 5' step isn't what we're talking about, it's the moving out of a threatened area that provokes the AoO that concerns us.
Your spider can 5' climb all over the tank for as long as it wants the instant it tries to leave the threatened area (by using climb skill to get into the box, bag, hat, etc.) it provokes that AoO that squishes it flat.
It's a crazy corner case of the rules but yeah this is how it is supposed to work.
The inner sea campaign guide goes on to elaborate how Witches are feared and what not too. Basically, Wizards are the cool kids who can get away with the same stuff and Witches were given a bad wrap and forever ostracized as the kid who peed his pants in class and no one wants to befriend that kid.
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The real question is going to be if you grapple an opponent with your hair and keep them 10 feet away can they ever break the grapple?
(remember the hair cannot be attacked directly and a grapple check is defined as an attack action. Unless you are a master escape artist you will never get free of a witch who grabs you)Now that seems to be a little "too powerful", even if you can back up the argument with a logic sequence that makes it seem sound. My guess is that the original wording in the rule book is to rule out someone attacking the hair separately from the witch who might be using it to do something- i.e. "called shot to the hair" (ye-gads that sounded odd).
If you are grappled, it seems fair to allow the target chances at escaping from the grapple, even if that wording could be used to justify an "inescapable grapple". An official ruling would help here... are there any other weapons/abilities that allow you to "grapple at a distance"? If so, their interpretation of the grapple rules may help.
WJ
The issue is not with the Hex it's with how the Grappling rules are handled. There's enough confusion on how those rules work that something like this is possible (not guaranteed just possible). Usually most of your grapple actions end with you moving the target to an adjacent square and then they can try to break the grapple against you not the hair. Once you figure out the trick to moving out of that adjacent square is where the problem begins.
@malag, All the hexes are like that, activate in first round, use em in the next. Anything else makes them really powerful.
As for the hair...
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score.
The hair sprouts immediately AND you can do stuff with it all in the same round.
@malag, All the hexes are like that, activate in first round, use em in the next. Anything else makes them really powerful.
That's not true. Slumber doesn't cause someone to fall asleep in the next round, it happens as soon as you use it. Fly doesn't occur next round, you lift off in the same round. Heal doesn't heal next round, you gain hit points immediately. Etc, etc.
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@malag, All the hexes are like that, activate in first round, use em in the next. Anything else makes them really powerful.That's not true. Slumber doesn't cause someone to fall asleep in the next round, it happens as soon as you use it. Fly doesn't occur next round, you lift off in the same round. Heal doesn't heal next round, you gain hit points immediately. Etc, etc.
I said activate hexes not use hexes. The ones you quoted are effectively always on (except for flight), the ones that can be activated always take effect on the next action you have that can use them. Flight is the only exception since it only requires a move action instead of a standard.
As for the hair to use it to attack with yes you do have to wait till next round since attacking requires it's own standard action (you can however use the hair to perform a move action if you have one left that round).
Sorry, man. I read "all the hexes are like that" and could only perceive that you were literally talking about all the hexes being like what you said. My bad.
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.The 5' step isn't what we're talking about, it's the moving out of a threatened area that provokes the AoO that concerns us.
Your spider can 5' climb all over the tank for as long as it wants the instant it tries to leave the threatened area (by using climb skill to get into the box, bag, hat, etc.) it provokes that AoO that squishes it flat.
It's a crazy corner case of the rules but yeah this is how it is supposed to work.
Incorrect. The check is made as a part of a 5-foot step, which "never provokes an attack of opportunity." The check is not an action, it is only a metric to see if you are able to take the action the check is a part of.
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Incorrect. The check is made as a part of a 5-foot step, which "never provokes an attack of opportunity." The check is not an action, it is only a metric to see if you are able to take the action the check is a part of.Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.The 5' step isn't what we're talking about, it's the moving out of a threatened area that provokes the AoO that concerns us.
Your spider can 5' climb all over the tank for as long as it wants the instant it tries to leave the threatened area (by using climb skill to get into the box, bag, hat, etc.) it provokes that AoO that squishes it flat.
It's a crazy corner case of the rules but yeah this is how it is supposed to work.
I disagree, though it is made with the 5' step it is still it's own action and that action provokes.
The 5' step doesn't provoke but using the skill does.
I disagree, though it is made with the 5' step it is still it's own action and that action provokes.
The 5' step doesn't provoke but using the skill does.
1. Climb is not its own action. I don't know how much more explicit I can get.
Climb:Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move actionPerception:Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Intimidate:Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Knowledge:In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action.
Acrobatics: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
2. By your own reading, using acrobatics as a part of movement to avoid AoO provokes because you used the skill. That is patently ridiculous.
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I disagree, though it is made with the 5' step it is still it's own action and that action provokes.
The 5' step doesn't provoke but using the skill does.
1. Climb is not its own action. I don't know how much more explicit I can get.
Climb:Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action
Perception:Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Intimidate:Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Knowledge:In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action.
Acrobatics: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.2. By your own reading, using acrobatics as a part of movement to avoid AoO provokes because you used the skill. That is patently ridiculous.
Now you are ignoring what I wrote. As I said quite blatantly it is not the climbing that is provoking the attack, it's the moving out of the threatened area which you are doing by climbing in the box. It is an action that requires the target to "stop focusing on defending themself" and doing something else. Climb those 5' steps all you want, climb in that box take an AoO.
Done.
The 5' step doesn't provoke but using the skill does.
Now you are ignoring what I wrote. As I said quite blatantly it is not the climbing that is provoking the attack, it's the moving out of the threatened area which you are doing by climbing in the box[...]
Just make an actual strait forward argument, I tire of these strange musings and declarations.
Blatant discrimination. Why would people be OK with wizards but not witches?It's just how they are...
Role: While many witches are recluses, living on the edge of civilization, some live within society, openly or in hiding. The blend of witches' spells makes them adept at filling a number of different roles, from seer to healer, and their hexes grant them a number of abilities that are useful in a fight. Some witches travel about, seeking greater knowledge and better understanding of the mysterious powers that guide them.
None of which suggests people discriminate against witches more than they do any other caster. It basically says, "Some live like recluses except for those that don't, and some hide what they are while others don't."
Which only tells us they could be anywhere doing anything.
Read the inner sea campaign setting. I'm not typing out that blob of text.
Also from the APG:
Witch: Members of dwarven society who form a pact with a familiar and take on the title of witch do so in secrecy. Their kin are distrustful of such agreements, preferring instead to rely upon the power of their deities.
Witch: Orc society is inherently superstitious, and many half-orcs inherit this trait. Half-orc witches in human society sometimes use their bestial features to enhance their air of intimidating otherness. Even more than other witches, half-orc witches find themselves generally regarded with fear and distrust by those who would seek their power, and many take to the road in pursuit of their own mysterious ends.
Read the inner sea campaign setting. I'm not typing out that blob of text.
Which is probably for the best -- however the inner sea campaign setting is just that a campaign setting... not the default for the system.
If you were to say, "In Golarion witches are more discriminated against..."
Then I might agree with you (or at least not have said something).
However all you've done with the dwarf and orc posts is prove that dwarves and orcs don't like witches. Which makes sense considering they don't like any arcane casters (including specifically wizards). What's more of course half orcs who are witches have more problems than those that aren't -- that's part of the whole half orc thing, "people like us less than they like other races of the same thing." What's more its very specifically stating half orc witches, not 'all witches in general'.
Semantics. Pft.
Blatant discrimination. Why would people be OK with wizards but not witches?It's just how they are...
Role: While many witches are recluses, living on the edge of civilization, some live within society, openly or in hiding. The blend of witches' spells makes them adept at filling a number of different roles, from seer to healer, and their hexes grant them a number of abilities that are useful in a fight. Some witches travel about, seeking greater knowledge and better understanding of the mysterious powers that guide them.None of which suggests people discriminate against witches more than they do any other caster. It basically says, "Some live like recluses except for those that don't, and some hide what they are while others don't."
Which only tells us they could be anywhere doing anything.
Actually in the first paragraph of the witch description: "Generally feared and misunderstood, the witch draws her magic from a pact made with an otherworldly power."
Now the whole discrimination line was brought up by Arbane, we did not want to argue semantics with him so we just answered with why it was said that the witches would have been feared if they showed themselves openly on the battlefield.
Well yeah, feared on the battlefield is different that discrimination though -- the paladin could be feared on the battlefield (as should be a barbarian or fighter). Fear and battle aren't exactly so distant from each other.
Well, the issue is that witches are feared in general. I figured that included when they hang around the wounded, especially with that whole make people into delicious magical pies bit.
PS. This my original statement on the matter: "They would be, except that most people won't accept a witch openly flaunting her witchiness. Superstitious lot." Just so we don't get confused as to who said what :P
Semantics. Pft.
Actually 'details' -- saying semantics in a case like this (where there are important details you are missing) is much like the guy that told me last night, "I don't care what the empirical evidence says my logic is flawless and you are wrong."
Semantics would be if I was arguing over the definition of a word -- which I am not, I'm pointing out what you quoted applies to dwarves who have a thing against arcane magic already:
Alchemist: While many respected dwarves practice alchemy, few take on the role of alchemist—except in the interest of creating magical beers. Dwarves see alchemists as odd folk, best to be avoided though still respected.
Sorcerer: Dwarven society prizes those few among them who draw their power from benevolent or noble bloodlines, but shun those tainted by darker influences.
Summoner: Most dwarves do not understand the powerful bond between a summoner and his eidolon, making this a rare profession for the stout folk. The eidolons of dwarf summoners often look similar to earth elementals or iron golems.
Wizard: Dwarves have never had a long tradition of arcane magic, and its study is a rare thing, though still more common than natural-born sorcery. Forgoing traditional dwarven training in favor of arcane study marks most wizards as outsiders among their young peers, though aged and learned wizards are well respected.
Half orcs have the following in their racial background:
Feared, distrusted, and spat upon, half-orcs still consistently manage to surprise their detractors with great deeds and unexpected wisdom—though sometimes it's easier just to crack a few skulls.
With that in mind saying they are more feared than others of the same class should be met with a 'no duh' look.
Actually 'details' -- saying semantics in a case like this (where there are important details you are missing) is much like the guy that told me last night, "I don't care what the empirical evidence says my logic is flawless and you are wrong."
Semantics would be if I was arguing over the definition of a word -- which I am not, I'm pointing out what you quoted applies to dwarves who have a thing against arcane magic already:
Alchemist: While many respected dwarves practice alchemy, few take on the role of alchemist—except in the interest of creating magical beers. Dwarves see alchemists as odd folk, best to be avoided though still respected.
Sorcerer: Dwarven society prizes those few among them who draw their power from benevolent or noble bloodlines, but shun those tainted by darker influences.
Summoner: Most dwarves do not understand the powerful bond between a summoner and his eidolon, making this a rare profession for the stout folk. The eidolons of dwarf summoners often look similar to earth elementals or iron golems.
Wizard: Dwarves have never had a long tradition of arcane magic, and its study is a rare thing, though still more common than natural-born sorcery. Forgoing traditional dwarven training in favor of arcane study marks most wizards as outsiders among their young peers, though aged and learned wizards are well respected.
Half orcs have the following in their racial background:
Feared, distrusted, and spat upon, half-orcs still consistently manage to surprise their detractors with great deeds and unexpected wisdom—though sometimes it's easier just to crack a few skulls.With that in mind saying they are more feared than others of the same class should be met with a 'no duh' look.
Yet, the end result is the same; I don't care. ;)
Well, the issue is that witches are feared in general. I figured that included when they hang around the wounded, especially with that whole make people into delicious magical pies bit.
PS. This my original statement on the matter: "They would be, except that most people won't accept a witch openly flaunting her witchiness. Superstitious lot." Just so we don't get confused as to who said what :P
Well the same could be said of a sorcerer opening flaunting his strangeness, or a wizard opening flaunting his power, or a barbarian that is constantly raging... or a paladin that's always giving people the detect evil and smiting.
Which would be my overall point to you (specifically) -- I'm not saying that a witch that goes out and acts all weird all the time won't spook people, just no more so than any other class going out and acting weird all the time.
I mean personally I would be just as concerned by the 'good witch of the north' as I think I would be by the 'wicked witch of the west' act -- after all both are just plain weird.
Well, the issue is that witches are feared in general. I figured that included when they hang around the wounded, especially with that whole make people into delicious magical pies bit.
PS. This my original statement on the matter: "They would be, except that most people won't accept a witch openly flaunting her witchiness. Superstitious lot." Just so we don't get confused as to who said what :PWell the same could be said of a sorcerer opening flaunting his strangeness, or a wizard opening flaunting his power, or a barbarian that is constantly raging... or a paladin that's always giving people the detect evil and smiting.
Which would be my overall point to you (specifically) -- I'm not saying that a witch that goes out and acts all weird all the time won't spook people, just no more so than any other class going out and acting weird all the time.
Except the other classes are not feared for being of their class in general, whereas a witch is (from a fluff standpoint).
I mean personally I would be just as concerned by the 'good witch of the north' as I think I would be by the 'wicked witch of the west' act -- after all both are just plain weird.
Don't forget that the wicked witch can use your body, living or dead, took make a fabulous meal, sniff out your children, be a part of a coven of hags, etc. all as class features. That is, those are just part of her being a witch. Other classes could find a way to do the same thing, but then they are the ones being weird, a witch is just being a witch.
From a fluff stand point alright -- however I would suggest rereading the alchemist and druid, as both are either 'msiunderstood' or 'unstable, unpredictable, and dangerous".
These three are the only ones though that have fluff that includes third party opinions about them though.
From a fluff stand point alright -- however I would suggest rereading the alchemist and druid, as both are either 'msiunderstood' or 'unstable, unpredictable, and dangerous".
These three are the only ones though that have fluff that includes third party opinions about them though.
Ah, but those weren't in the original discussion now were they?
Besides 'misunderstood' is different from 'feared and misunderstood', and 'unstable, unpredictable, and dangerous' is technically just a observation on their perceived behavior, whereas 'feared' is an indirect way of saying that the common folk tell stories to their children stories about how a witch will track them down (by scent) and turn them into stew (over the course of an hour) if they misbehave.
It makes sense that an evil witch that bestows curses and cooks people would be feared and mistrusted. It also makes sense that a good witch that freely uses his/her healing hex would not be ostracized.
Evil wizards that care little for the welfare of their minions would be similarly feared and mistrusted. Wizards that use their skills and powers to protect the weak and advance learning would be respected.
I think the classes allow for a broad range of personality types, and those personality types would be recognized by the general population.
So by saying that the witch is generally feared due to one reference in their fluff description I can also say that barbarians are not allowed to use tactics, preparation or the rules of warfare.
Known as barbarians, these warmongers know little of training, preparation, or the rules of warfare; for them, only the moment exists, with the foes that stand before them and the knowledge that the next moment might hold their death.
That all bards must be skillful and practiced in many forms of artistry (since they 'typically are').
Druids must be misunderstood and allies of beasts (no domains for you!) as well as constantly trying to prove the might of the wilderness to those living behind walls.
Sorcerers are always almost consumed by their magical ability, wizards must seek, collect and covet, all rangers must relish the hunt and be skills patient hunters, and a summoner must empower his eidolon or his own spells and powers won't become stronger (the summoner’s spells and abilities are limited due to his time spent enhancing the power and exploring the nature of his eidolon). Cavaliers must spend all their time perfecting "their art, spending all of their time honing their skill at martial arms" -- which means no kids for one thing.
Gunslingers must be bold and mysterious -- if you aren't bold and aren't mysterious you can't be a gunslinger. A magus must become a force few would stand against, and oracles are not allowed to understand their powers.
stuff about how PCs play their charactersI assumed this was a discussion about generic npc reactions, my mistake. On a side note, there is a word for defeating an innacurate facsimile of another's argument, that exact word escapes me at the moment.
It makes sense that an evil witch that bestows curses and cooks people would be feared and mistrusted. It also makes sense that a good witch that freely uses his/her healing hex would not be ostracized.
Evil wizards that care little for the welfare of their minions would be similarly feared and mistrusted. Wizards that use their skills and powers to protect the weak and advance learning would be respected.
I think the classes allow for a broad range of personality types, and those personality types would be recognized by the general population.
I agree that classes have a wide range of personalities, especially with the whole "alignment: any" thing. I was only pointing out that the populace in general would not likely accept a witch embracing her witchiness. I suppose it would be too late to mention that the post was supposed to be humorous in nature, and not a premier analysis of Golarion mentality.
What? We are supposed to assume a default from a fluff description in one case but not in others?
What? We are supposed to assume a default from a fluff description in one case but not in others?
Well, when one is a generic character adjucated by a GM and the other is an exceptional character (archiac, I know) run as an individual by a player, then yes, I would assume it is generally true in one case and not necessarily so in the other.
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I actually thought this was about Witches and hexes.... think it got a little off-topic.
Very fair Buri, I'm off, everyone have a nice day.
I watched "A Chinese Ghost Story" last night... that's it, I am *totally* taking the Prehensile Hair Hex now. Anyone who wants to see how a hair grapple would work has got to watch that movie... it made me a believer.
Indeed
EDIT: to all three preceding posts :P