...where brown people are now second-class citizens.
Today I'm ashamed to be an Arizona resident. I can only hope that, were I not out of town on business all week, that I would have had the guts to chain myself to the capital door in protest.
That is all.
Ok getting back on topic here.
What exactly are your plans once you get back into Arizona?
You seem to be a little smarter than the type that would chain themselves up to something for a futile polictical statement that noone would care about.
Me, I think I'm going to start a grassroots petion here in Virgina to emulate your wonderful govenors idea.
We need this to spread far and wide folks, have other govenors follow where the brave lady of Arizona has lead.
I have followed the link and actually read the propossed law and it seems very fair and equitable.
This is not just an arizona issue it's a national issue, look as an example the small town in texas that prohibits the renting of houseing to illegals. If it wasn't for a FEDERAL judge overturning the will of the people in californa then immigration wouldn't be as much of a problem there today.
If they can't take a clue X 4 that their days of haveing a free ride in this country are over and that the CITIZENS of this counrty will no longer tolerate their ILLEGAL presence here, then they deserve to be deported in the harshest manner possible. I am NOT advocating in anyway any sort of violence against them but the criminals in our jails lose certain rights when they commit crimes why should we bestow any more on one criminal type than the other.
well thank you for your military service, you should probably find yer card and memorize that number cuz its gonna be needed as we head into the futureThanks, and I appreciate your support :-)
I use my SSN routinely (someone in the Army is asking for my "Last Four" on a daily basis), so I know it; and it's incorporated into several of my identity cards I use at work...but the actual SSN card? I certainly don't carry it around, and I can't remember the last time I actually saw it. My prints, DNA, and favorite color are all on file, thanks to my government service, so it should be a pretty quick process for anyone to verify my status.
Out of curiosity, how many Paizonians routinely carry their SSN card on their person?
I don't usually bother carrying any ID. I don't drive and there is no other reason I might need ID on a day to day basis.
Sorry, I just cannot stand ignorant racists. Plus this whole tea party thing with them wanting to start militias is just too reminiscent of the civil war. As soon as s@*@ starts goin down I'm grabbing my family and headin for canada.
We'll have to build a wall to keep out all these illegal American immigrants.
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there is no other reason I might need ID on a day to day basis.
So, if you're out and about and you are hit by a bus, or just fall over dead, you'll just let the authorities be bothered with trying to identify your remains when they get around to it (leaving your loved to ones worry if that John Doe found was you or not)...
Oh, and BTW - ;-P
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We'll have to build a wall to keep out all these illegal American immigrants.
Sorry, I just cannot stand ignorant racists. Plus this whole tea party thing with them wanting to start militias is just too reminiscent of the civil war. As soon as s@*@ starts goin down I'm grabbing my family and headin for canada.
Not me man! Canada is waaayy to cold. Bad enough I have to live through Pennsylvania winters.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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... if you don't pay taxes then you should not get free medical treatment and a drivers license...
Rhubarb, undocumented workers do pay income tax (federal and state, under whatever bogus social security number they're using), sales tax, useage fees, property tax, and licensure fees.
There are good arguments on both sides of this debate, but this isn't one of them.
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We'll have to build a wall to keep out all these illegal American immigrants.
Sorry, I just cannot stand ignorant racists. Plus this whole tea party thing with them wanting to start militias is just too reminiscent of the civil war. As soon as s@*@ starts goin down I'm grabbing my family and headin for canada.
Naw, we only stay for a day or two to pick up your weed and cheap medecine, and then leave.
We don't hang around like a deadbeat friend and eat everything in your fridge.
I actually was talking to this Mexican chick, and she asked me about illegal aliens in this country. I laughed and told her they shouldn't be here illegally. She got pissed off and wouldn't speak to me for, like, an hour, because her parents were illegal.
I told her they should go back to Mexico, then.
I just speak the truth. If they want to break the law, fine, but don't come crying to me when the repercussions hit. Do I hate Mexicans? No. Do I care if illegal Mexican immigrants get racially profiled? Uh, no. Do I care if some innocent people get caught in the crossfire because of this legislation? Yes, but if it gets the job done, then I could care less.
Is this discrimination? Yup, but if they had obeyed the law in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. The bad ones screwed it up for the rest of them.
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Or do you think that "95% of all murder warrents" [sic] in L.A. are actually "for illegals," as Mr. Tindall claims?
He stated that he believes he saw such a story in the times. That's about as racist as saying I think I saw Arpaio in nazi garb on the New Times cover (local free rag as I'm sure you know).
No data. Just "if I'm not mistaken." Are you kidding me?
And those are just from this thread.
Thank you for keeping them from this thread, as that's what we're discussing here.
So then the burden of proof is on his end and not your own? Now I've seen the stat that states Phoenix is #2 for kidnappings world wide (and that it is primarily from the illegal population), so I need no such proof, but how exactly does stating a figure you've seen count as racist?
But how can you take what Tindall said as anything but xenophobic and racist? "Something bad once happened to an acquaintance of someone I know, so violence must be indicative of the illegal mindset."
How do you keep getting xenophobia? No one in this thread (up to this post anyway, still reading) aside from yourself has expressed a desire to close off the borders completely.
I believe his intent was to use an anecdote (often used by political figures) to point out his position that when people break the law, they are less apt to care about breaking other laws.
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Rhubarb, undocumented workers do pay income tax (federal and state, under whatever bogus social security number they're using), sales tax, useage fees, property tax, and licensure fees.
That's assuming they're not working under the table. If the population in question is indeed 'undocumented' they can't get a job that doesn't pay under the table. In which case they pay no taxes. This practice is common in the construction companies I'm familiar with.
When using a stolen identity (the falsely documented?) the roads are opened up for a tax refund, food stamps, low income housing, free and (sometimes) low cost health care, and an education (for the kids).
Economic loss is indeed a good argument in this debate.
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When is someone going to start a thread condemning Mexico for the way it treats Guatemalan illegals?
to be fair Mexican laws are pretty hypocrital, but that includes with their citizens...
yeah i have heard the discussion in this side of the border...
but for those complaining Chiapas Border is the 1st filter to stop southamerican's illegal immigration into USA :P
the fun part is that some border cities in arizona and Texas actually survive thanks to the border... both cheap labor and customers happy to travel and being threated liek 2nd class citiziens so they can get shiny "american" items (many made in Mexico and many other countries and exported to USA to be sold at more expensive rates... yet cheaper than in here... )
still meh :P
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Do you really want to fix the illegal immigration problem with our border with Mexico in a humanitarian way? I have the solution, though we are too cowardly to implement it.
Annex Mexico. Make Mexico part of the United States.
Let's examine this from a few points:
(1) Industry can then flow southward, wages there will increase, there will be more jobs (and more consumers) and fewer people will need to head so far northward.
(2) The Mexican government has no reason to halt illegal immigration, since the vast majority of immigrants (legal and illegal) funnel money back into the country.
(3) The Mexican government is even more inept and powerless and corrupt than our own. Want to stop the violence associated with Mexican drug gangs? Make them American drug gangs... finish this argument yourselves.
(4) Unifying the U.S. and Mexico will provide U.S. businesses a bigger market, and will encourage the Mexican people to aspire (even more so) to American ideals and standards (whether that is a good thing or not is a topic for elsewhere).Of course, this is not a perfect solution, since many of the illegal immigrants come from farhter SOuth than Mexico, but it would put a major dent in the problem. If those other governments wanted to retain their autonomy, seeing the U.S. absorb Mexico would certainly provide impetus for their governments to approach the problem on equal footing. Expect an outcry from the E.U. and the Middle East, as alarger America would dent their power projection capabiliities and economy. Many would regard this as simply imperialist expansion or Manifest Destiny, but this solution would work within a relatively short time frame.
while you mention interesting points.. this argument has its flaws within itself...
1) industry already flows south... the reason? its cheaper, they pay lower taxes, pay less tot he people, worry less for the benefits, etc... economically speaking there are thousands of companies that won't benefit from this move... why to fix the backyard where youleave the thrash and someone else takes it when you can just do it.. yes you get some rats and problems but its so much easier to just do nothing about it.. and "cheaper"... yeah even us know that we are usa backyard...
2) indeed! immigrant money is about.. i think the 3rd income in mexican economy... if not more... I know towns where most yound adult males are in USA leaving mostly women, children and old people... those towns get a lot of life in december when those people come for holidays (my family is from one of such towns... Yuriria, Guanajuato... but i think most of them don't worry about Arizona... if i heard well most are in Chicago)
3) in this we agree... actually a ot of poeple says that it will be solved with legalizing some drugs that will cut the cartels business.
4) That was the TLC for... ahh you call it NAFTA... if I remember well while we benefited us it gave us the longer shaft... or i think that is the expression... i just remember it caused us a lot pf problems and bankrupsies... at least companies get into getting better quality controls.
5) you ar right, only a fraction of the immigrants are mexican (even if that makes a lot of them), there are from all of the countiries south of Mexico.
but yes... a true and decent agreement between Canada, Mexico and USA should have done a greater deal for the 3 nations...
oh yes Mexican Politician would get an outcry if USA tried this... but I am sure about a big part of the population would accept the change with open arms...
I am not one of those... but since we need to get rid of our politicans one way or another... I would be happy to arrive to a compromise...
still i know this is not gonna happen unless it becomes a continental block much in the way of the European Union and after Greece bankrupsy and Portugal's state... that doesn't sound like a smart choice
Do I care if illegal Mexican immigrants get racially profiled? Uh, no. The bad ones screwed it up for the rest of them.
So, if there were a dude who was once kicked in the nuts by a guy named Jared, and now he goes around and every time he meets someone named "Jared," he returns the favor... you'd be 100% OK with that? Just checking.
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Do I care if illegal Mexican immigrants get racially profiled? Uh, no. The bad ones screwed it up for the rest of them.So, if there were a dude who was once kicked in the nuts by a guy named Jared, and now he goes around and every time he meets someone named "Jared," he returns the favor... you'd be 100% OK with that? Just checking.
I would.....I'm no Jared.....;P
I've heard that 83% of the crime in Weedpatch, Michigan is committed by people named Jared.
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Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The comment theorized that the bold part above could be interpreted to mean that an illegal immigrant is subject to the jursidiction of their home country first, thus the child should be a citizen of that country. Not sure how that would actually fly in the face of decades of legal precedent.
oh that explains why so many families (poor, rich and otherwise) get their children birth in Arizona :P
there is no need to be illegal to absue the system, in this case this people pay for full services... for the right of naturalization for their children..
i know many half-americans that have only gone there for shopping.
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ok, for those clamoring for the illegals to make themselves legals or to take the right approach...
last year i think, someone working with in the same company as my father (which is owned by a Mexican who has the green card and lives in California... we are in Sonora and next to Arizona) asked the green card because his boss was opening an office in Nogales (Rio Rico to be precise), they cross chemical componets every day to make their product and sell it in Mexico so they need someone on the other side to check everything runs smoothy.
what happened?
they said no.
why?
"Isn't an American experienced enough to do this work?"
probably yes... but it was not an issue of experience (whcih the man has) but of confidence and thrust (they have been working toguether for the last 10 years)
so those who argue that "illegal"i mmigrants should go for the propers channles may have to take into account the racism of the authorities and how easily they can say no because they don't want to say yes.
what happened?
The man rents a house in Nogales, Mexico ad corss every day the border to get the job done until the next time he has the chance to try for the green card... by the way his children were born in the other side, so they are American citizens :P
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Fair enough. I just believe that, in general, attacking the supply is wrongheaded, when we should be going after the demand. Look at drugs: Attacking the supply just drives up the price, which creates more of an incentive for people to smuggle and sell drugs.Thanks for the belly laugh!
Wow, seriously. You don't actually believe that drugs cost more now than they did before the "War on Drugs" really started rocking in the Eighties, do you?
No, no and no. Sorry.
I never said anything about the efficacy of the War on Drugs, or the price history of drugs in the U.S. I was explaining the futility of prohibition in general. In the future, you should really read what others are saying, and think this stuff through rather than just posting whatever comes to mind out of reflexive opposition or in an apparent desire to appear clever and aloof.
FACT: Prohibition puts an upward price pressure on the prohibited item. Obviously the amount of pressure depends on the effectiveness of the prohibition.
FACT: An increase in price of the prohibited item encourages new entrants into the market. Or would you deal drugs and risk jail for $5 an hour?
Disagree all you like, but you're not going to overturn centuries of economic theory in a message board thread. If you believe otherwise, you're quite simply in over your head.
You said, and I quote: "Look at drugs: Attacking the supply just drives up the price..." which is, in fact, exactly 100% incorrect. Maybe, perhaps, you shouldn't use examples if you know nothing about the subject.
Seriously, drugs are cheaper now, in real dollars, than they were the last year they were legal (1912 for those keeping score, 1936 for marijuana).
I did this for a living from 1987 until early 2000, and the prices dropped steadily that entire time. I don't really care about "economic theory" when it is demonstrably false in the face of economic REALITY.
Again, thanks for the belly laugh.
Edit: Let me put this in perspective. In 1977, a gram of cocaine cost around $200, an eight ball around $600. In 2000, the year I was "retired" by the government, a gram was going for $40 to $50, and an eight ball for between $80 and $125, depending on who you knew. A kilo went for $60k in the 70's, I was selling them for $12k in 2000. In the '70s, there was almost no real enforcement going on, in 2000, every podunk town on the border had a "Drug Task Force" special unit.
The reason? In the '70s, there was little demand for cocaine. It was a "rich man's boutique drug. By 2000, cocaine was ubiquitous. Whatever law enforcement busted was a mere fraction of what was flooding into the country.
Now, I also did Coyote work back then. The going rate was $1,500 a head. If the border were to become hot, that price would go up dramatically. (risk/reward and all that). It takes families AGES to save the $1,500 per to get across. It would take even longer if the price were to increase. People aren't as in demand as coke, weed, meth and heroin are, and they aren't as concealable (can't weld them into body panels and gas tanks), so increasing the volume of people being smuggled just increases risk with no noticeable difference in reward.
Probably what will happen is California, New Mexico and Texas will see a slight bump in the number of illegal crossings, but overall there won't be as many crossings as it is next to impossible to hide that much traffic coming across the border.
I've heard that 83% of the crime in Weedpatch, Michigan is committed by people named Jared.Isn't that the name of that dude who advertises for Subway? Something like he was a fat bastard, but ate their sandwiches and lost weight.
And here come the tinfoil hatters....
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Do I care if illegal Mexican immigrants get racially profiled? Uh, no. The bad ones screwed it up for the rest of them.So, if there were a dude who was once kicked in the nuts by a guy named Jared, and now he goes around and every time he meets someone named "Jared," he returns the favor... you'd be 100% OK with that? Just checking.
No, but if other people named Jared started kicking people in the nuts, and it was discovered that out of all the people who kicked other people in the nuts, people named Jared were the culprits 80% of the time, I wouldn't blame you.
You're all so angry! Attacking me personally instead of my argument seems like, I don't know...victory for me?
Don't blame me for Mexico's poor image, blame illegal immigrants from Mexico. If not for them, all Mexico would be known for is violent gang murders, kidnapping and Tijuana.
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And here come the tinfoil hatters....I've heard that 83% of the crime in Weedpatch, Michigan is committed by people named Jared.Isn't that the name of that dude who advertises for Subway? Something like he was a fat bastard, but ate their sandwiches and lost weight.
What? You mean that Subway dude isn't real? Crap, it must be the aliens sending signals to my brain....
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Don't blame me for Mexico's poor image, blame illegal immigrants from Mexico. If not for them, all Mexico would be known for is violent gang murders, kidnapping and Tijuana.
poor image has nothing to do with this... as fas as I know many americans create stereotipes for people it doesn't matter where they are...
Mexico is a lot more that what you say... but of course people like you don't care bout that.
Ignorance and prejudice a marriage born in hell... but I suppose that is good for the likes as you.
El Matador Montalve calls it like he sees it. ;)
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Don't blame me for Mexico's poor image, blame illegal immigrants from Mexico. If not for them, all Mexico would be known for is violent gang murders, kidnapping and Tijuana.poor image has nothing to do with this... as fas as I know many americans create stereotipes for people it doesn't matter where they are...
Mexico is a lot more that what you say... but of course people like you don't care bout that.
Ignorance and prejudice a marriage born in hell... but I suppose that is good for the likes as you.
Montalve, since Bugleyman thinks Mexican immigration law is irrelevant he and I's discussion, I will say this to you: Homeslice, I love you to death, but I highly recommend you read Mexico's immigration law, which is a hundred times more xenophobic, racist and patently unfair than Arizona's before you start throwing stones.
I've spent two days in a jail in Piedras Negras because I forgot my driver's license at the hotel under your immigration laws. I know first hand, having spent time in jail on this side of the border with illegal entrants from Mexico, that we treat your people much better than your country treated me.
El Matador Montalve calls it like he sees it. ;)He calls it like he thinks it. I call it like I've seen it, up close and personal.
I was being more referential from a microcosmic personal standpoint than the macrocosmic country standpoint. He's simply validating what we know to be as a pejorative. ;)
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Don't blame me for Mexico's poor image, blame illegal immigrants from Mexico. If not for them, all Mexico would be known for is violent gang murders, kidnapping and Tijuana.poor image has nothing to do with this... as fas as I know many americans create stereotipes for people it doesn't matter where they are...
Mexico is a lot more that what you say... but of course people like you don't care bout that.
Ignorance and prejudice a marriage born in hell... but I suppose that is good for the likes as you.
Are you...trying to sell me chiclets?
Perhaps some posters could cross reference the Arizona law with current federal law, since as I understand it the two use similar language. No, I'm not going to waste my time looking it up. Got far more important things to do.
Just curious if there was a real intellectual basis for being against a state enforcing a federal law, or if people were just using it as an excuse to throw out the words "nazi," "evil," "racist," etc.
But please, continue the argument.
-Doug (who has no desire to see any part of Mexico except for little town that gave us the fish taco. But don't worry, I'm not racist. I don't want to see to much of Canada, either. Except Vancouver and Nova Scotia.).
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That's assuming they're not working under the table. If the population in question is indeed 'undocumented' they can't get a job that doesn't pay under the table. In which case they pay no taxes. This practice is common in the construction companies I'm familiar with.
When using a stolen identity (the falsely documented?) the roads are opened up for a tax refund, food stamps, low income housing, free and (sometimes) low cost health care, and an education (for the kids).
Economic loss is indeed a good argument in this debate.
You have half a point. I'm used to the undocumented workers who get caught up hee in Ioa, who work under false SSN, rather than for cash. That would indeed save them income tax. (But in Texas, Florida, Nevada, Wyoming, and a handful of other states, there are no state income taxes, maybe for just that reason.) And you hit on the flip side of that yourself: no SSN means a denial of EITC, Child Care Credit, Food Stamps, etc.
Of course, everybody pays state and local sales tax. Everybody who owns property pays property tax. (And it's property taxes that bear the load for education dollars.) Everybody who owns a car pays the vehicle tax and license plate fees.
Honestly, very little of a foreign citizen's tax burden depends on her being in the country legally.
Ignorance and prejudice a marriage born in hell... but I suppose that is good for the likes as you.Are you...[...]?
So, you're insinuating that he's a mexican urchin in the streets trying to flag you down to sell you gum? No, not racist, of course not.
/sarcasm
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Ignorance and prejudice a marriage born in hell... but I suppose that is good for the likes as you.Are you...[...]?So, you're insinuating that he's a mexican urchin in the streets trying to flag you down to sell you gum? No, not racist, of course not.
/sarcasm
Are you implying that all people who sell chiclets are Mexican street urchins? No, not racist, of course not.
/sarcasm
Ignorance and prejudice a marriage born in hell... but I suppose that is good for the likes as you.Are you...[...]?So, you're insinuating that he's a mexican urchin in the streets trying to flag you down to sell you gum? No, not racist, of course not.
/sarcasm
Are you implying that all people who sell chiclets are Mexican street urchins? No, not racist, of course not.
/sarcasm
Nice try, but that's not going to help you from sinking on your rowboat. Chiclets are imported from Mexico and it's a known epithet to imply that urchins are trying to peddle sticks of chiclets on the streets to tourists for change.
You knew very well what you were implying since you were directing your comment in response to someone who happens to be Mexican.
You said, and I quote: "Look at drugs: Attacking the supply just drives up the price..." which is, in fact, exactly 100% incorrect. Maybe, perhaps, you shouldn't use examples if you know nothing about the subject.Seriously, drugs are cheaper now, in real dollars, than they were the last year they were legal (1912 for those keeping score, 1936 for marijuana).
I did this for a living from 1987 until early 2000, and the prices dropped steadily that entire time. I don't really care about "economic theory" when it is demonstrably false in the face of economic...
No, no, no. Stop putting words in my mouth. Attacking the supply drives up the price. OTHER FACTORS may conspire to result in a decrease (like say, demand WHICH YOU YOURSELF CITE), but I never denied that. NOR DID I EVER SAY PRICES HAVE COME DOWN. You're arguing with a strawman of your own devising. In fact, the only thing "demonstrably false" here is your unshakable conviction of personal infallibility. Put aside your reflexive hate for all things intellectual for a while; you just might learn something.
And not that it's relevant, I grew up on Maui, HI, which (at the time, at least), was probably 2nd only to California in illegal drug use. Both of my parents were cocaine addicts for a good part of my childhood. I grew up surrounded by the production, dealing, and consumption of illegal drugs. So maybe you should check your facts before you assume someone else can't possibly be as enlightened as you.
Edit: I'm done wasting time in this tangent. You either don't know enough about economics (which I'm sure you write-off as "useless theory" and "belaboring the obvious" anyway) to follow me, or you aren't really trying. Either way, I'm done giving you a free Econ 101 lesson. Try community college.
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You said, and I quote: "Look at drugs: Attacking the supply just drives up the price..." which is, in fact, exactly 100% incorrect. Maybe, perhaps, you shouldn't use examples if you know nothing about the subject.Seriously, drugs are cheaper now, in real dollars, than they were the last year they were legal (1912 for those keeping score, 1936 for marijuana).
I did this for a living from 1987 until early 2000, and the prices dropped steadily that entire time. I don't really care about "economic theory" when it is demonstrably false in the face of economic...
No, no, no. Stop putting words in my mouth. Attacking the supply drives up the price. OTHER FACTORS may conspire to result in a decrease (like say, demand WHICH YOU YOURSELF CITE), but I never denied that. NOR DID I EVER SAY PRICES HAVE COME DOWN. You're arguing with a strawman of your own devising. In fact, the only thing "demonstrably false" here is your unshakable conviction of personal infallibility. Put aside your reflexive hate for all things intellectual for a while; you just might learn something.
And not that it's relevant, I grew up on Maui, HI, which (at the time, at least), was probably 2nd only to California in illegal drug use. Both of my parents were cocaine addicts for a good part of my childhood. I grew up surrounded by the production, dealing, and consumption of illegal drugs. So maybe you should check your facts before you assume someone else can't possibly be as enlightened as you.
Edit: I'm done wasting time in this tangent. You either don't know enough about economics (which I'm sure you write-off as "useless theory" and "belaboring the obvious" anyway) to follow me, or you aren't really trying. Either way, I'm done giving you a free Econ 101 lesson. Try community college.
So, your mom and dad had you scoring sacks for them? Wow. Someone should have called CPS.
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Stuff
For one thing, in you descriptive world, I don't have a sinking rowboat, I have a sinking luxury yacht.
Second, Montalve could be peddling chiclet right now and you just insulted her(him?). I was just looking for a hook up for my chiclet fix, and thought I'd ask an expert.
I am certainly not the one on the defensive here, Uri.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Of course, everybody pays state and local sales tax.Just FYI - Not all states charge a sales tax. Not sure about the Border States (other than CA, in which I live, and it does), but I know Oregon for example, has no such state sales tax...
Very true. According to Ask.com, the states without sales tax are:
AlaskaOregon
Montana
Delaware
New Hampshire
(Perhaps it's notable that these states don't concern themselves all that much with undocumented foreigners.)
Montalve could be peddling chiclet right now and you just insulted her(him?). I was just looking for a hook up for my chiclet fix, and thought I'd ask an expert.
So, you're saying that he's an expert on chiclets? And how did you come to that conclusion? Amuse me. Please draw me a picture from point A to point B because apparently I'm a moron.
So, your mom and dad had you scoring sacks for them? Wow. Someone should have called CPS.
You said, and I quote: "Look at drugs: Attacking the supply just drives up the price..." which is, in fact, exactly 100% incorrect. Maybe, perhaps, you shouldn't use examples if you know nothing about the subject.Seriously, drugs are cheaper now, in real dollars, than they were the last year they were legal (1912 for those keeping score, 1936 for marijuana).
I did this for a living from 1987 until early 2000, and the prices dropped steadily that entire time. I don't really care about "economic theory" when it is demonstrably false in the face of economic...
No, no, no. Stop putting words in my mouth. Attacking the supply drives up the price. OTHER FACTORS may conspire to result in a decrease (like say, demand WHICH YOU YOURSELF CITE), but I never denied that. NOR DID I EVER SAY PRICES HAVE COME DOWN. You're arguing with a strawman of your own devising. In fact, the only thing "demonstrably false" here is your unshakable conviction of personal infallibility. Put aside your reflexive hate for all things intellectual for a while; you just might learn something.
And not that it's relevant, I grew up on Maui, HI, which (at the time, at least), was probably 2nd only to California in illegal drug use. Both of my parents were cocaine addicts for a good part of my childhood. I grew up surrounded by the production, dealing, and consumption of illegal drugs. So maybe you should check your facts before you assume someone else can't possibly be as enlightened as you.
Edit: I'm done wasting time in this tangent. You either don't know enough about economics (which I'm sure you write-off as "useless theory" and "belaboring the obvious" anyway) to follow me, or you aren't really trying. Either way, I'm done giving you a free Econ 101 lesson. Try community college.
No, I never personally bought drugs for my parents. They did take me to the methadone clinic on several occasions; I'd ask them what the pink milk was for. To this day I'm not 100% sure; I think it was a heroin thing. My father is dead and my mother doesn't talk about that time.
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No, I never personally bought...So, your mom and dad had you scoring sacks for them? Wow. Someone should have called CPS.
You said, and I quote: "Look at drugs: Attacking the supply just drives up the price..." which is, in fact, exactly 100% incorrect. Maybe, perhaps, you shouldn't use examples if you know nothing about the subject.Seriously, drugs are cheaper now, in real dollars, than they were the last year they were legal (1912 for those keeping score, 1936 for marijuana).
I did this for a living from 1987 until early 2000, and the prices dropped steadily that entire time. I don't really care about "economic theory" when it is demonstrably false in the face of economic...
No, no, no. Stop putting words in my mouth. Attacking the supply drives up the price. OTHER FACTORS may conspire to result in a decrease (like say, demand WHICH YOU YOURSELF CITE), but I never denied that. NOR DID I EVER SAY PRICES HAVE COME DOWN. You're arguing with a strawman of your own devising. In fact, the only thing "demonstrably false" here is your unshakable conviction of personal infallibility. Put aside your reflexive hate for all things intellectual for a while; you just might learn something.
And not that it's relevant, I grew up on Maui, HI, which (at the time, at least), was probably 2nd only to California in illegal drug use. Both of my parents were cocaine addicts for a good part of my childhood. I grew up surrounded by the production, dealing, and consumption of illegal drugs. So maybe you should check your facts before you assume someone else can't possibly be as enlightened as you.
Edit: I'm done wasting time in this tangent. You either don't know enough about economics (which I'm sure you write-off as "useless theory" and "belaboring the obvious" anyway) to follow me, or you aren't really trying. Either way, I'm done giving you a free Econ 101 lesson. Try community college.
The methadone is a replacement drug for heroin addicts, but it has some benefits for cocaine addicts as well. It just replaces one drug with another, so it's a stop gap, not a solution or a cure, sadly.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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-Doug (who has no desire to see any part of Mexico except for little town that gave us the fish taco. But don't worry, I'm not racist. I don't want to see to much of Canada, either. Except Vancouver and Nova Scotia.).
Oooh, that's really unfortunate.
A simple trip to cancun will bring two things you really ought to see before you die.
1) Hundreds of drunken college co-eds in slight bikinis.
2) The fantastic Mayan ruins of Chichen-Itza, one of the most spectacular sites I have ever seen in my entire life. Pretty much any gamer will instantly fall in love with the place.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Of course, everybody pays state and local sales tax.Just FYI - Not all states charge a sales tax. Not sure about the Border States (other than CA, in which I live, and it does), but I know Oregon for example, has no such state sales tax...
Again, just FYI...
No state tax in Washington state, either.
Oooh, that's really unfortunate.
A simple trip to cancun will bring two things you really ought to see before you die.
1) Hundreds of drunken college co-eds in slight bikinis.
2) The fantastic Mayan ruins of Chichen-Itza, one of the most spectacular sites I have ever seen in my entire life. Pretty much any gamer will instantly fall in love with the place.
I've got number 1 beat by the fact that I used to dance competitively. Dance conventions are . . . interesting places. Besides, these days I'm a dad, and drunken co-eds aren't much of a draw. Plus my son would likely get confused, giving me the look of "Whaddya mean I can't have a drink? That's what they're there for!" Ah, six months old is such a wonderful age.
As for number 2, I was planning on visiting the ruins in Belize. Belize also has the benefit of cool phosphorescent plankton. I forget where, but how cool would it be to swim in glowing water? Chichen-Itza does look cool, though.
Out of curiosity, how many Paizonians routinely carry their SSN card on their person?
I keep it in my wallet.
I skipped some points, so I don't know if it has already been mentioned but legal immigrants are required to keep their papers with them at all times by federal laws/codes.
I give up. I don't know how to be more clear: It doesn't matter if it's painless. YOU DON'T SINGLE OUT PEOPLE BASED ON RACE and ask for their papers in free and open society. And like it or not, there is no practical way to enforce this law without using race.
No practical way to enforce the law without using race?
A person hears the Russian immigrant stating he came into the country illegally and tips off the police. If he gets pulled over, ta da.
Now, you might say that is not practical because there are so few illegal Russian immigrant in Arizons. Big effing deal. That doesn't make the law bad or wrong.
There would be a problem if there were no way to enforce the law that wasn't based entirely upon race.
A pick-up truck with six people in it is pulled over for speeding or is in a crash or six guys hop in the open back of a pick-up truck. You have a number of hispanic passengers (in an area heavy with illegal hispanic workers) who act nervous, apparently were unaware of both seat belt laws and number of allowable people in a cab, and add that either the area is near a pick up spot for day workers or add that the officer knows that the driver frequently hires illegal aliens to perform work and you have there a whole number of reasons for looking into the citizenship of the passengers.
The point is that it is wrong to single people out SOLELY upon race or ethnicity (or however you wish to label it) but when it is combined with other factors it is acceptable. And, those factors will often be present when the individuals being looked at are illegal (because they are factors related to illegal immigrants) but not so often when the individuals are not illegal.
Those other factors exist and give a way to enforce the law without relying solely upon ethnicity.
Instant practicality.
Edit: changed intro...
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so those who argue that "illegal"i mmigrants should go for the propers channles may have to take into account the racism of the authorities and how easily they can say no because they don't want to say yes.
Sounds like he was trying to apply for a Work Visa, so the that was not an issue with racism, but with the Law on applying for a work visa.
To get a work Visa the company has to prove that the foreigner can do the job better then an american, or only the foreigner can do the Job, Next line...
The employer must prove that there are no unemployed US workers willing or able to do the work. This is established through the state's employment agency using a labor certification process. This process requires a recruitment campaign, including advertising in a local newspaper for available temporary workers.
Work Visas requiring specific training and degrees or "speciality occupations", are much easier to get.
SO the official was not being racist, he was just doing his Job.
Federal bureaucracy doesn't need to be racist to be inefficient, lazy, and unhelpful. My father's wife (who immigrated legally to the US) became an illegal immigrant because she didn't receive notice of an immigration hearing. Even though she had come here legally and was married to a US citizen, she had to leave the country and reapply. (Why did she miss this important hearing? The mail had been forwarded to my mother while my dad traveled, and my mom neglected to mention the notice to her replacement.)
The real problem with immigration law boils down to the Feds' refusal to work out a fair and efficient guest worker program. If it weren't so difficult for honest, decent people to get authorization to work here, people wouldn't flout the law.
By the way, I discussed the law with some local police today. Officers Hernandez and Delgado said the only difference from their perspective was that they can take illegal aliens to the county jail instead of the ICE holding facility.
Annex Mexico.1) industry already flows south... the reason? its cheaper, they pay lower taxes, pay less tot he people, worry less for the benefits, etc... economically speaking there are thousands of companies that won't benefit from this move... why to fix the backyard where youleave the thrash and someone else takes it when you can just do it.. yes you get some rats and problems but its so much easier to just do nothing about it.. and "cheaper"... yeah even us know that we are usa backyard...
2) indeed! immigrant money is about.. i think the 3rd income in mexican economy... if not more... I know towns where most yound adult males are in USA leaving mostly women, children and old people... those towns get a lot of life in december when those people come for holidays (my family is from one of such towns... Yuriria, Guanajuato... but i think most of them don't worry about Arizona... if i heard well most are in Chicago)
3) in this we agree... actually a ot of poeple says that it will be solved with legalizing some drugs that will cut the cartels business.
4) That was the TLC for... ahh you call it NAFTA... if I remember well while we benefited us it gave us the longer shaft... or i think that is the expression... i just remember it caused us a lot pf problems and bankrupsies... at least companies get into getting better quality controls.
5) you ar right, only a fraction of the immigrants are mexican (even if that makes a lot of them), there are from all of the countiries south of Mexico.
but yes... a true and decent agreement between Canada, Mexico and USA should have done a greater deal for the 3 nations...
oh yes Mexican Politician would get an outcry if USA tried this... but I am sure about a big part of the population would accept the change with open arms...
I am not one of those... but since we need to get rid of our politicans one way or another... I would be happy to arrive to a compromise...
still i know this is not gonna happen unless it becomes a continental block much in the way of the European Union and after Greece bankrupsy and Portugal's state... that doesn't sound like a smart choice
First, thank you for responding to my idea. I appreciate also the perspective of someone outside the U.S. as well.
I think for (1) if all Mexicans were suddenly Americans, then American wage laws would apply, tax collection would increase, but wages would also increase. I agree that many businesses would have to adapt rapidly or perish, but I also think that the benefits to the worker would be phenomenal.
(2) (3) and (5) I think we see eye-to-eye on. :)
As for (4), NAFTA/TLC did end up being ... less good ... than it was supposed to be. With no border, no NAFTA (well, excpet for those Canadians). There is certainly a large economic opportunity in Mexico, but it seems two countries cannot realize that.
And I certainly agree that politicians would have a big problem with this idea. After all, they would lose a lot of their power and influence. The older I get, the more convinced I am that politicinas no longer even offer a pretense of representing their constituents and just want their own little kingdoms.
I am interested to see how nations adapt to an increasingly global economy. I do hope that we can work to bring up the poorer nations and not bring down the richer nations. Eventually we will all be on the same page (economically-speaking).
2) The fantastic Mayan ruins of Chichen-Itza, one of the most spectacular sites I have ever seen in my entire life. Pretty much any gamer will instantly fall in love with the place.