This is going to be our first adventure into pathfinder coming up a week from today, Crypt of the Everflame.
It is my first time GMing in any system, but a number of the players have lots of D&D experience.
The problem we are looking at, is that noone wants to play a healing class, the four people that will show up for the weekly event 95% of the time, are as follows:
Fighter
Rogue
Monk
Sorc
There are a few other people interested in playing less often, but none of them have selected or rolled a class with me yet, and this Sunday will most likely be the 4 people above.
Going through the core rulebook i couldn't find a easy way for the party to repair damage other than resting and cure light wounds potions (50gp a piece kinda eats up treasure budgets). There doesn't appear to be a simple skill/feat/ or less expensive way to repair HP, or I just complete missed it.
My question is, as a GM what can i do that will help the situation?
I would give them a DMPC cleric who tags along on the mission. Build him as a dedicated healer and you should be set to go. That's what I did for my Crypt of the Everflame solo adventure with my wife.
well you don't have to have a healer, but they will have to fall back more often. Place a wand of healing somewhere or throw em some hidden CLW potions in there when ya think they need it most.
If the players have "lots of D&D experience" you can always simply challenge their typical way of thinking by NOT catering to their healing needs. (I know I'm going against the flow here...). As the beginner DM, the easiest pitfall for you to fall into is giving away too much to the players. Knowing when to "just let things roll" is one of the toughest balancing acts as a new DM, based on my own experience. I would suggest, especially if you're using a module of any kind, that you let THEM figure out what they're going to do for healing. If they run out of HP, well...that's the risk of adventuring without a cleric, IMO.
This is true, giving to much is as bad as killing them all.
This is true, giving to much is as bad as killing them all.
True, that is the balancing game the GM has to play. I actually think i found my answer re-reading the module book
Their is a wand of cure light woods avail in the town for 300gp that has 22 charges left on it. Chance are they will be smart enough to find that in the shop before venturing out.
I think that plus them buying a few cure light wounds and playing smart and resting when required will give them a hard but winnable module.
Rogue + Use Magic Device does the trick.
In short, must roll and a natural 1 means that character can't try again for 24 hours.
I would recommend adding a few CLW potions to the treasure they find as needed so they can heal up some after fights.
Unnecessary. Simply ensure you have more than one CLW wand. 4 or 5 would probably be a good idea! Roll a one, move on to the next wand. On a spell by spell basis - CLW from a wand costs 15gp! Nice and cheap. Take it from me though (I speak from very recent experience), those CLW wands start going like water by mid-level!
You probably want to pick up a lesser restoration wand at some point as well. More expensive (unless you can find that elusive PALADIN lesser restoration wand ;)), but worth it.
Cure potions may be an OK idea for use during combat when required, but for between combats, they are an expensive way to heal up!
If you are allowing access to 3.5 material, there are MANY other solutions that would work. Check out the healing belts from the magic item compendium for cheap renewable healing, or point the sorcerer to a feat in Complete Divine called "Arcane Disciple" where he can get the spells from a clerical domain on his spell list (um - healing domain?)
Unless the rogue or sorcerer is putting ranks into Use Magic Device, a wand may not be much help. It is a DC 20 check to use a wand if you don't have the spell on your class spell list (in which case there is not check needed)
So far just ability scores have been rolled and and classes chosen, we havent set up feats/skills yet. 1 point for the sorc into use magic device gives +4 to that DC check, then a +3 from cha modifier means they need to roll a 13, so aprox 65% success is about 14 successful uses.
An NPC gives you a CLW pot at the start, along with basic adventure gear which frees up the rest of the starting gold for weapons/armor and healing gear for them.
1 of the guys has been playing since the late 80s, another almost as long, so I'm thinking they will be playing careful and make sure they are prepared knowing its no healer.
Worst case scenario we'll have a deus ex machina into some extra rations and they can barricade themselves into one of the rooms to have a few days rest (happened in a game i played with some of them before). With some successful healing checks 4hp/day for full bed rest will heal everyone up in 2 days at lv 1.
I cant wait, this is going to be a good adventure :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is a little outside the box but in my home game we've taken the idea of Healing Surges from 4e and adapted them to Pathfinder. Each character gets a number of surges per day equal to 5 + CON mod. They can spend as many surges outside of combat as they want, but during a fight they have to take a standard action to use one and can only use one. Each surge heals 1d6 + level hp, although outside of combat an ally can make a DC 15 Heal check to make the surge 1d6 +level x 2.
The players don't have a cleric and this system has worked well.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
Is the sorcerer particularly tied to a bloodline? Celestial can fill in the healing gap a tad as well..
Heavenly fire does 1d4 heal 3 + cha modifier times a day, i forgot about that option.
The sorc hasn't picked his bloodline yet, and wanted to do sorc instead of his normal pally, so im not sure if he's going to want to pick up healing.
Im felling more confident about the campaign now after the input from the forum. Between the items avail inside the campaign to possibly finding a healing belt, to the room barricade get bed rest. Heck, they might find some magic acorns that head 1d3 each on eating if they miss everything else :P
This is a little outside the box but in my home game we've taken the idea of Healing Surges from 4e and adapted them to Pathfinder. Each character gets a number of surges per day equal to 5 + CON mod. They can spend as many surges outside of combat as they want, but during a fight they have to take a standard action to use one and can only use one. Each surge heals 1d6 + level hp, although outside of combat an ally can make a DC 15 Heal check to make the surge 1d6 +level x 2.
The players don't have a cleric and this system has worked well.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
I actually like that idea a lot. If none of the players wants to play a healer then the party isn't gimped; and I hate DMPC's, so it avoids that as well. Sounds like it probably helps maximize everyone's good times, so it has to be a winner!
I actually like that idea a lot. If none of the players wants to play a healer then the party isn't gimped; and I hate DMPC's, so it avoids that as well. Sounds like it probably helps maximize everyone's good times, so it has to be a winner!This is a little outside the box but in my home game we've taken the idea of Healing Surges from 4e and adapted them to Pathfinder. Each character gets a number of surges per day equal to 5 + CON mod. They can spend as many surges outside of combat as they want, but during a fight they have to take a standard action to use one and can only use one. Each surge heals 1d6 + level hp, although outside of combat an ally can make a DC 15 Heal check to make the surge 1d6 +level x 2.
The players don't have a cleric and this system has worked well.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
Heal surge is not an option. These guys ares till playing 1ed, I sold them on trying pathfinder and they have a hate for 4e. Heal surges are a running joke with them :P They'd be much happier with some magic acorns.
short shift the encounters a little.
seriously.
lower weapons carried by bad guys. Being clubbed is a little more forgiving than being stabbed (by a die type), and turning studded leather into leather effectivelygrants each player a +1 to strike them. also consider lowering HP of enemies by 1 per HD.
add a few more RP and skill encounters. it makes the characters feel a little more useful. a trap is good for the thief.
also, add something to test the players ingenuity. m aybe a riddle of some sort, or a puzzle.
map out a good place for the PC's to rest, actually stick in a location (i think the term is 'polder') add an alternative to normal healing (how about lichen that duplicates the effects of goodberry?)
above all, a dedicated healer should not be necessary to enjoy the game. the game should be able to be played solo or with sub optimal parties and still be enjoyable. Healers, and optimised parties are luxury items, and should not be needed for a regular game.
Batts
|
The monk can take the heal skill, which among other things can be used to treat deadly wounds at a DC 20.
Treat Deadly Wounds: When treating deadly wounds, you can restore hit points to a damaged creature. Treating deadly wounds restores 1 hit point per level of the creature. If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, add your Wisdom modifier (if positive) to this amount. A creature can only benefit from its deadly wounds being treated within 24 hours of being injured and never more than once per day. You must expend two uses from a healer's kit to perform this task. You take a –2 penalty on your Heal skill check for each use from the healer's kit that you lack.
Provided the Monk has a decent wisdom score, this is a 10 use item for 50gp divided by the 2 uses it takes = 10 gp per attempt. Supplement this with some of the ideas above and long-term care when necessary.
Remind the players that this is the route they've chosen.
|
I might also point out that with that kind of experience and the classes involved, you might be surprised at just how effective at avoiding damage by killing all the monsters in 1 or 2 rounds the party is, especially if they work together to augment each other's abilities.
One of the meanest, most butt kicking party's we ever had included a rogue, 2 fighters, a sorcerer and a bard. Incredibly limited healing only via the bard, but we pwned every monster the GM threw at us, from multiple little 1/2 HD monsters to large 5HD BBEG.
Very little need from healing. Experienced players know how to kill things without taking damage.
The monk can take the heal skill, which among other things can be used to treat deadly wounds at a DC 20.
Well, at least now the monk is useful for something :p
I use a variation of the reserve hit points rules from Unearthed Arcana for my healer-deprived party of 6 PCs. It's basically an extra pool of hit points equal to your actual hit points. You use them to replenish your real hit point pool, but not during combat, and they "convert" over on a 1 hit point per minute of rest basis.
I've played through Crypt of the Everflame with a 3 person party. Our only spellcaster was a druid.
There are more healing resources elsewhere in the crypt for the PCs to discover. I'd suggest adding a few more potions in the adventure for the PCs to find. A wand will be too much and will make the adventure too easy.
Remember that even at 1st level most clerics will only have 3 (possibly 4) 1st level spells per day, and one of them will be a domain spell. A druid will have the same number, minus the domain spell (unless it takes the animal domain instead of an animal companion). An oracle will have 4 maybe 5 spells per day. Granted, a cleric will have some channel energy available too.
My point is, at 1st level even a spellcaster isn't going to be pumping out a lot of healing. Also, with more non healers in the party, that means they can damage things faster or avoid traps easier, which translates to less damage taken overall, which means less healing is needed overall.
I'd suggest giving them all 2 potions each at the start intsead of just one. You could also up the Caster level of the potions so that they heal more, say make them 5th caster level instead of 1st so that they deal an additional 4 hitpoints each. And then I'd place a few more potions throughout the module for the PCs to find (a couple in the horses saddlebags at the entrance to the tomb, for instance.) And I think you'll find that those simple things will be enough for your PCs to make it through OK but without making the module too easy or too hard.
Yar!
Not long ago my group did a themed party where we were all warior classes, mostly fighters. We got around just fine, and in fact, I found it rather fun to deal with the challenge of having no casters of any sort, let alone healers.
Of course, the use of potions increased dramatically, as did strategic withdrawls to use said potions mid combat (which also increased the level of teamwork needed by us all. If one of us was getting hurt, others would step in to take his place or aid him, etc). Everyone had to do their part to survive.
It can be quite amazing what limitations can do to increase creativity. How can we deal wth healing without a dedicaed healer? I say, let them be creative with figuring out how to heal their wounds.
~P
|
Yar!
Not long ago my group did a themed party where we were all warior classes, mostly fighters. We got around just fine, and in fact, I found it rather fun to deal with the challenge of having no casters of any sort, let alone healers.
Of course, the use of potions increased dramatically, as did strategic withdrawls to use said potions mid combat (which also increased the level of teamwork needed by us all. If one of us was getting hurt, others would step in to take his place or aid him, etc). Everyone had to do their part to survive.
It can be quite amazing what limitations can do to increase creativity. How can we deal wth healing without a dedicaed healer? I say, let them be creative with figuring out how to heal their wounds.
~P
+1
The mentality that a group always needs a healing class has driven me insane over the years. I banned the cleric in my most recent campaign, because someone always plays one 'because we need a cleric'.
Thanks for all the advise everyone, I'll be sure to post next monday how the event turned out.
As a long time player and DM, I feel it's up to the players to ensure that they have enough healing. As a player, and typically the party leader, regardless of class, I always discussed with the other players what they were going to be. I often would choose my class based on what was needed in the party, be that a cleric, wizard, or fighter, etc. That said, as a DM, I always want the players to play what they want to. Part of the fun of playing is facing the challenges created by choices made by players, whether it's class choice, path direction, or hat have you.
Looking at the party, a monk can heal himself at a certain level. your fighter has lots of hit points, but the sorcerer is the most vulnerable. Your rougue can become an adaquate healer if he has suitable ranks in Use Magical Device (thus scrolls, wands, other items related to healing). He can also steal the necessary things (depending on alignment).
As the DM, you have the power to adjust things, regardless of whether you are using a pregenerated adventurer or not. Place extra healing potions, wands, or what have you in certain encounters, or even ad in a stationary healer that the party can go to for healing, such as a witch or old druid or shaman.
I have never used a pregen in my entire roleplaying career, so I'm all for adding or adjusting things to suit your PC's situation. But remember - don't make it too easy. Sometimes the struggles and difficulties are half, if not all the fun. Don't don't make it impossible.
That's my 2cp.
I'm with Alexander Kilcoyne on this it has taken me years to get my group out of the 'we need' frame of mind. Sure it means alittle bit more work for me but its worth it to have players play what they want instead of what they think they have to. After all if it worked for the very first group in DnD it can work for you.
My 2cp
|
|
Don't forget that the heal skill has the treat deadly wounds option.
Treat Deadly Wounds: When treating deadly wounds, you can restore hit points to a damaged creature. Treating deadly wounds restores 1 hit point per level of the creature. If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, add your Wisdom modifier (if positive) to this amount. A creature can only benefit from its deadly wounds being treated within 24 hours of being injured and never more than once per day. You must expend two uses from a healer's kit to perform this task. You take a –2 penalty on your Heal skill check for each use from the healer's kit that you lack.
|
|
Yar!
Not long ago my group did a themed party where we were all warior classes, mostly fighters. We got around just fine, and in fact, I found it rather fun to deal with the challenge of having no casters of any sort, let alone healers.
Of course, the use of potions increased dramatically, as did strategic withdrawls to use said potions mid combat (which also increased the level of teamwork needed by us all. If one of us was getting hurt, others would step in to take his place or aid him, etc). Everyone had to do their part to survive.
It can be quite amazing what limitations can do to increase creativity. How can we deal wth healing without a dedicaed healer? I say, let them be creative with figuring out how to heal their wounds.
~P
+1
The mentality that a group always needs a healing class has driven me insane over the years. I banned the cleric in my most recent campaign, because someone always plays one 'because we need a cleric'.
+S this is one of the most annoying things I've encountered in my time gaming. I once played in a game and got all excited about making my cleric martially aimed since none of the players had picked fighting classes, and then the DM and went and undercut me by adding a DMPC fighter because "the party needs a front line character" rather than waiting for the party to adapt to lacking one. I'm a fan of watching a party adapt to the situation, not hand holding them by throwing them everything they're missing.
|
|
I'm playing "council of thieves". We have a Grapple Fighter, an Illusion/Enchantment Sorcerer, and an Evoker Wizard. We're up to 4th level, and no problems so far. It's been exciting, and there's been a few close calls, but those have been more to do with us only having 3 people rather than missing in-combat healing.
The module has so far been rather generous with healing potions (which apparently is exactly how it's written; DM swears he's not adding extras), and during the "go off and do something random for reputation" filler bit we got a lucky roll on a treasure table that resulted in a fully charged wand of cure light wounds (again, DM rolled dice in front of us, I was reading along, it was luck).
You don't need a dedicated healer, as long as you have someone that can reliably activate a wand of cure light wounds out of combat, and the DM is careful to provide "antidotes" to whatever bad stuff the monsters end up having (piazo's adventure paths are very good about this).
The general design philosophy of pathfinder seems to be "forcing someone in the party to play a character who's sole purpose is to heal the party during combat is boring and should not be required. Supported under the rules and very nice to have if someone wants to play such a character, but not required". I fully support it.
We ended up getting a 5th, giving us Fighter, Barb, Rogue, Monk, Sorc
Both Fighter and Barb had 20 str and 16 con after racial modifiers, and the rogue had a 20dex, the monk was the only one with int penality, and no wis bonus except the monk and sorc. We had a rather DPS/Beefy team, so the sorc went all utility.
So we started the adventure a few days before the module.
I had created a number of 1/2 day quickie quests that people around town had; reading strange writing, chopping wood for elderly, finding lost pets etc.
After this they each had around 200xp and 2 heal pots each, and some extra spending money.
They used the pots and extra cash to get the used wand of healing and still had 2 pot after the goods from the towns folk.
[/spoilers]
The first encounter was easy enough
Second session we lost the fighter and the monk (they'll both be rejoining over the next 2 weeks).
[spoiler=Everflame]The first encounter with the wolves almost killed the party due to 1) only one being awake when the wolves came back, who wanted to try to solo them and 2) i rolled crazy dice. Then into the crypt. The wand worked well for them the sorc had a +10 to use magic device which made the wand's DC20 much easier. They also used a lot of their pots, but it was definitely exciting with a number of KOs. The last fight of the night was vs the shadow. I modified the encounter as the sorc had no dmg spells, and they weren't swinging with torches and we obviously going to wipe, so i just did 50% DR and bumped its HP to its max dice to compensate. They almost wiped, but again, a very exciting fight.
So in the end, we had 3 characters doing a 4 man dungeon w/o a healer, and just some extra healing pots and cash and its been a fantastic game so far.
with the hack and slash mindset of my group. somebody always has to be the healer. and i have to sacrifice whatever character i wanted to play, just because the nearly the entire party refuses to play a cleric. each member has thier niche that they stick to and refuse to leave.
our party frequently looks like the following makeup
1. Dwarven TWF Fighter
2. Human or Elven Monk
3. Either a Duskblade or Mystic Thuerge,
4. Some kind of religious holy warrior, may be a battle cleric
5. Whatever i get shoehorned into playing, usually either a cleric or wizard, sometimes a rogue.
6. whatever flakey people come and don't stay
All I can add to this is DONT, dont play what other wont. The game is for your enjoyment as well as theirs they are getting to play what they want without a thought to others. So next time everyone runs of with their characters and leave you with the 'must have' guy dont, with luck they will see how things work. Also speak to your DM I as a Dm always make it possible for my players to survive without the 'must have' PC's it just takes alittle more work but is worth it.
|
with the hack and slash mindset of my group. somebody always has to be the healer. and i have to sacrifice whatever character i wanted to play, just because the nearly the entire party refuses to play a cleric. each member has thier niche that they stick to and refuse to leave.
our party frequently looks like the following makeup
1. Dwarven TWF Fighter
2. Human or Elven Monk
3. Either a Duskblade or Mystic Thuerge,
4. Some kind of religious holy warrior, may be a battle cleric
5. Whatever i get shoehorned into playing, usually either a cleric or wizard, sometimes a rogue.
6. whatever flakey people come and don't stay
Gah! If no one in the party is going to be a healer that doesn't mean you have an obligation. There is already a cleric in the group who can use wands out of combat so play what you want. I suggest you play a class that can take care of itself. Battle Cleric, Druid, Bard, Inquisitor, Witch, Rogue... lots of options where you can be self sufficient with regards to healing without being slave to the rest of the other parties healing needs. If people get too beat up in combat they can drink potions or fall back and act as artillery.
Gah... shoehorning is rotten.
|
Have run campaigns before where no one played a healer, no big deal. Let them play. Have some of your bad guys carry healing potions (chances are they won't use them all before battle is done). But no need to give your players a diaper by having Bobo the Robot Healer tag along to patch them up when things get rough or by having wands of cure wounds drop along the road. Instead, they'll get very creative about avoiding damage.
Healing isn't needed until someone has lost their last hit point. Even then magical healing still isn't needed -- just healing.
Anyone (IMO everyone in pathfinder) can (should) have ranks in use magical device or heal. Either of those skills can keep a party on its feet without much (any) trouble.
IF you find yourself shoehorned (and you don't like it) then don't let it happen. Just play what you want and let everyone else get over themselves.
Some of the funnest games I've been in have had limited to no casters what so ever (the only casters were, monks, paladins and rangers), we survived (with even or higher CR encounters) and thrived just fine.
Heal surge is not an option. These guys ares till playing 1ed, I sold them on trying pathfinder and they have a hate for 4e. Heal surges are a running joke with them :P They'd be much happier with some magic acorns.I actually like that idea a lot. If none of the players wants to play a healer then the party isn't gimped; and I hate DMPC's, so it avoids that as well. Sounds like it probably helps maximize everyone's good times, so it has to be a winner!This is a little outside the box but in my home game we've taken the idea of Healing Surges from 4e and adapted them to Pathfinder. Each character gets a number of surges per day equal to 5 + CON mod. They can spend as many surges outside of combat as they want, but during a fight they have to take a standard action to use one and can only use one. Each surge heals 1d6 + level hp, although outside of combat an ally can make a DC 15 Heal check to make the surge 1d6 +level x 2.
The players don't have a cleric and this system has worked well.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
I never understood the mentality of totally bycotting another game (including any new ideas worth testing), since no one is forced to play 4E, therefore I would suggest not calling it healing surges if the mechanic works.
Prior to 4E, we used mechanisms to heal during down time, using bandaging (blatent ripoff from wow). We also tinkered with items providing max healing versus rolling randomly.
Prior to 4E, we used mechanisms to heal during down time, using bandaging (blatent ripoff from wow). We also tinkered with items providing max healing versus rolling randomly.
I think you mean UO :)
1 point for the sorc into use magic device gives +4 to that DC check, then a +3 from cha modifier means they need to roll a 13, so aprox 65% success is about 14 successful uses.
That's an awfully weak CHA for a sorcerer, even at level 1. Maybe he has RP reasons, or maybe dice were rolled and his best score was a 14 (+2 racial mod), but I would think that in a game without a healer, every PC needs to be at the top of his game. Starting with anything less than an 18 in a primary casting stat is rough. Save DCs, bonus spells, and Concentration checks, as well as some useful skills (like UMD) are all worth the investment.
Oh, and needing to roll a 13 is a 40% chance of success, so about 20 successful uses from a 50 charge wand.
some successful healing checks 4hp/day for full bed rest will heal everyone up in 2 days at lv 1.
Oddly enough, this is pretty much true at 20th level too. Even at 20th level, there are very few characters who have more than 8 HP/level (which can be healed in two days of bed rest). Even the big old barbarian with a Toughness feat who might have 200 HP at 20th level, and he gets shredded by a dragon down to -10 HP before he stabilizes, he can be healed back to full in 3 days of bed rest.
That's an awfully weak CHA for a sorcerer, even at level 1.
They got to roll 6x 3d6 for creation stats, 18s are a little rare, we have 3 total across 5 players :P
He's a Half Orc Draconic sorc who had the 14+2, and yes, we RP heavy.We also have a rogue with 5 int and 7 wis, its fun times and so far very well roll-played even to the determent of the rest of the party!
That's an awfully weak CHA for a sorcerer, even at level 1.
They got to roll 6x 3d6 for creation stats, 18s are a little rare, we have 3 total across 5 players :P
He's a Half Orc Draconic sorc who had the 14+2, and yes, we RP heavy.
We also have a rogue with 5 int and 7 wis, its fun times and so far very well roll-played even to the determent of the rest of the party!
A rogue dumped his int? Really? Does he not like skills or something? This is nearly inconcievable to me.
That's an awfully weak CHA for a sorcerer, even at level 1.
They got to roll 6x 3d6 for creation stats, 18s are a little rare, we have 3 total across 5 players :P
He's a Half Orc Draconic sorc who had the 14+2, and yes, we RP heavy.
We also have a rogue with 5 int and 7 wis, its fun times and so far very well roll-played even to the determent of the rest of the party!
Interesting. Did you watch those guys roll? I'd say, these guys are extremely lucky and they should give up D&D and go make themselves millionaires in Las Vegas.
Your guys collectively rolled 30 sets of 3d6. The odds of getting an 18 on just one roll of 3d6 is 1 in 216. Statistically, they should have needed to roll 648 sets of 3d6 to get 3 18s, but your guys did it in only 30 rolls.
I wouldn't call that "a little rare", I would call that "conspicuously frequent".
As for the rest of that, I sure hope you're a lenient DM. Characters with ability scores like that would eat constant TPKs in any Pathfinder AP that I've seen. A rogue getting 5 skill ranks per level and having a permanent -2 on finding traps is almost worthless to a dungeon crawl. And if everyone else has similar core weaknesses, you're probably going to have to coddle them - never throw an encounter or a trap at them with a CR above their own or you'll risk killing them.
It's always fun playing a character who has both strengths and weaknesses, I love doing that. But, not when those weaknesses are in core class abilities - that's just a low-survival rate right there. And if I were a real adventurer, I would find a profession that suits my limitations, and I would never trust my life, in constant danger in a hostile and scary world full of all kinds of monstrous and magical danger, to other adventurers who didn't excel at their core competencies. It's just suicide.
Interesting. Did you watch those guys roll? I'd say, these guys are extremely lucky and they should give up D&D and go make themselves millionaires in Las Vegas.
Your guys collectively rolled 30 sets of 3d6. The odds of getting an 18 on just one roll of 3d6 is 1 in 216. Statistically, they should have needed to roll 648 sets of 3d6 to get 3 18s, but your guys did it in only 30 rolls.
I wouldn't call that "a little rare", I would call that "conspicuously frequent".
I acually used the system i posted here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/communityContent/houseRules/howDoYouRoll.So really it was 2 18 and a 3 that was 'inverted' into an 18 (which was the rogue with hori-bad dice). Still statistically abnormal, but it happens.
I did watch them all roll, and i think i had it backwards with int/wis, but yea, its still low and bad for finding traps.
We are 1/2 way into Crypt of The Everflame and its not doing too bad, even when we only had 3 of the 5 for part of it. Its defiantly a challenge for them, and they are forced to play smart and creative :P
|
Interesting. Did you watch those guys roll? I'd say, these guys are extremely lucky and they should give up D&D and go make themselves millionaires in Las Vegas.Your guys collectively rolled 30 sets of 3d6. The odds of getting an 18 on just one roll of 3d6 is 1 in 216. Statistically, they should have needed to roll 648 sets of 3d6 to get 3 18s, but your guys did it in only 30 rolls.
I wouldn't call that "a little rare", I would call that "conspicuously frequent".
You're forgetting that Pathfinder has a plethora of +2's in the racial mods, so all they NEED to roll is a sixteen. Ask him how many 20s are in that group and I bet he says zero.
Edit: But that's not the case apparently.
<snip>
You're forgetting that Pathfinder has a plethora of +2's in the racial mods, so all they NEED to roll is a sixteen. Ask him how many 20s are in that group and I bet he says zero.
Edit: But that's not the case apparently.
Nope, we have 3 20s from those 3 18s :P
|
|
That's an awfully weak CHA for a sorcerer, even at level 1.
They got to roll 6x 3d6 for creation stats, 18s are a little rare, we have 3 total across 5 players :P
He's a Half Orc Draconic sorc who had the 14+2, and yes, we RP heavy.
We also have a rogue with 5 int and 7 wis, its fun times and so far very well roll-played even to the determent of the rest of the party!Interesting. Did you watch those guys roll? I'd say, these guys are extremely lucky and they should give up D&D and go make themselves millionaires in Las Vegas.
Your guys collectively rolled 30 sets of 3d6. The odds of getting an 18 on just one roll of 3d6 is 1 in 216. Statistically, they should have needed to roll 648 sets of 3d6 to get 3 18s, but your guys did it in only 30 rolls.
I wouldn't call that "a little rare", I would call that "conspicuously frequent".
As for the rest of that, I sure hope you're a lenient DM. Characters with ability scores like that would eat constant TPKs in any Pathfinder AP that I've seen. A rogue getting 5 skill ranks per level and having a permanent -2 on finding traps is almost worthless to a dungeon crawl. And if everyone else has similar core weaknesses, you're probably going to have to coddle them - never throw an encounter or a trap at them with a CR above their own or you'll risk killing them.
It's always fun playing a character who has both strengths and weaknesses, I love doing that. But, not when those weaknesses are in core class abilities - that's just a low-survival rate right there. And if I were a real adventurer, I would find a profession that suits my limitations, and I would never trust my life, in constant danger in a hostile and scary world full of all kinds of monstrous and magical danger, to other adventurers who didn't excel at their core competencies. It's just suicide.
Really? I have a party of three running RotR converted to pathfinder rules. The theurge has a charisma 16 (He used his +2 to boost a negative stat to a +0 mod) a monk who's highest stat is 16 (Wisdom, he rolled all 13-14s and one 10) and a rogue, the rogue is the only character who rolled an 18 and put it in dex. To date the rogue is the only character who's died.
Really? I have a party of three running RotR converted to pathfinder rules. The theurge has a charisma 16 (He used his +2 to boost a negative stat to a +0 mod) a monk who's highest stat is 16 (Wisdom, he rolled all 13-14s and one 10) and a rogue, the rogue is the only character who rolled an 18 and put it in dex. To date the rogue is the only character who's died.And if everyone else has similar core weaknesses...
It's always fun playing a character who has both strengths and weaknesses, I love doing that. But, not when those weaknesses are in core class abilities - that's just a low-survival rate right there. And if I were a real adventurer, I would find a profession that suits my limitations, and I would never trust my life, in constant danger in a hostile and scary world full of all kinds of monstrous and magical danger, to other adventurers who didn't excel at their core competencies. It's just suicide.
I did say "core" competencies. And I did say "weaknesses" - all those examples are strengths (above 10), even if they could have been stronger. And I did say "If everyone else has similar core weaknesses".
Try that same group in the same AP with the theurge having a CHA of 7 and the monk with a WIS of 7 and the rogue with a DEX of 7.
I bet they probably wouldn't gave gotten past that first encounter in the first dungeon - you know the one. She's small, magical, and worships a nasty god.
|
|
Really? I have a party of three running RotR converted to pathfinder rules. The theurge has a charisma 16 (He used his +2 to boost a negative stat to a +0 mod) a monk who's highest stat is 16 (Wisdom, he rolled all 13-14s and one 10) and a rogue, the rogue is the only character who rolled an 18 and put it in dex. To date the rogue is the only character who's died.And if everyone else has similar core weaknesses...
It's always fun playing a character who has both strengths and weaknesses, I love doing that. But, not when those weaknesses are in core class abilities - that's just a low-survival rate right there. And if I were a real adventurer, I would find a profession that suits my limitations, and I would never trust my life, in constant danger in a hostile and scary world full of all kinds of monstrous and magical danger, to other adventurers who didn't excel at their core competencies. It's just suicide.
I did say "core" competencies. And I did say "weaknesses" - all those examples are strengths (above 10), even if they could have been stronger. And I did say "If everyone else has similar core weaknesses".
Try that same group in the same AP with the theurge having a CHA of 7 and the monk with a WIS of 7 and the rogue with a DEX of 7.
I bet they probably wouldn't gave gotten past that first encounter in the first dungeon - you know the one. She's small, magical, and worships a nasty god.
I was responding to the fact that you said a 17 cha sorcerer is weak, he posted the stats of the other party members but the preface that a 17 is weak is what I was going off of. A primary stat being below ten is weak, but while more challenging, it isn't a detriment to start with your primary stats at anything 14+. And a rogue doesn't need int or wisdom. high ranks can adjust to make up for a low int. And wisdom only affects a rogues will saves. I just get something in my craw when people use the term "that won't work in a published adventure." which I don't find to be true.
wisdom also affects a lot of important skills, more than just will saves, perception checks and sense motive checks, heal checks and survival checks, all of which matter more than they appear to. profession has a few niche uses too. but a profession can be nice to have given the right camapign.